The Trolls Win! Blizzard Reverses Real Name Policy

[DoctorFinger]

Ok, "The Trolls Win" may be a bit of an overstatement. But after a firestorm of controversy, Blizzard has reversed their decision to put the real names in every post made on the official Blizzard message boards.
Hello everyone,

I'd like to take some time to speak with all of you regarding our desire to make the Blizzard forums a better place for players to discuss our games. We've been constantly monitoring the feedback you've given us, as well as internally discussing your concerns about the use of real names on our forums. As a result of those discussions, we've decided at this time that real names will not be required for posting on official Blizzard forums.

It's important to note that we still remain committed to improving our forums. Our efforts are driven 100% by the desire to find ways to make our community areas more welcoming for players and encourage more constructive conversations about our games. We will still move forward with new forum features such as conversation threading, the ability to rate posts up or down, improved search functionality, and more. However, when we launch the new StarCraft II forums that include these new features, you will be posting by your StarCraft II Battle.net character name + character code, not your real name. The upgraded World of Warcraft forums with these new features will launch close to the release of Cataclysm, and also will not require your real name.
While your real name won't be on every post you make, RealID is still a part of Blizzard's plans going forward. If you want things like cross-realm or cross-game chat, you'll have to link your RealID to your account.

Source - Blizzard forums (http://forums.battle.net/thread.html?topicId=25968837163&sid=3000).

[Hawkzombie]

Looks like they're going to use a name + code sort of setup to remove the anonymity from alts. So if you make a level 1 alt simply for trolling, it'll still have the code.

Honestly, why couldn't they have done that to begin with?

[Widgetcraft]

The trolls would have won if the policy had remained intact, they're the ones who would abuse that information (well, them and shut-in psychopath neckbeards). It was everyone else who was going to be on the losing end.

[mightbe]

I was really gearing up for doing a protest at blizzard. I was gonna cosplay and everything.

[Hotcod]

well thank god for that. I've really not got a big issue with realIDs as such, could be a really nice social feature but I just expect to retain control over the privacy of things like my name. Glad to see them using codes to reduce the alt problem too, pretty much does everything they wanted with out losing control of the system and putting people at risk.

[Kielaran]

Ok, "The Trolls Win" may be a bit of an overstatement.

Only slightly. If i had to guess, I would bet this had a significant part in it.

http://news.softpedia.com/news/Blizzard-Employees-Have-Their-Personal-Info-Exposed-146915.shtml

[Hawkzombie]

Yeah...i knew there had to be another reason. Blizzard simply does NOT listen to people when they've made a decision about something :p

[Krispy]

Only slightly. If i had to guess, I would bet this had a significant part in it.

http://news.softpedia.com/news/Blizzard-Employees-Have-Their-Personal-Info-Exposed-146915.shtml

I followed a link on that article to the Twitter "hacking" that I somehow missed last year. Jesus, I love how easy it is to infiltrate an organization without knowing anything but public domain knowledge. I have to say though, the organization I'm in right now is locked the fuck down in comparison to these other companies I've read about. You can't even access email here that isn't run on local servers and none of their websites have database servers or php so that someone could use a vulnerability to get to information they aren't supposed to. The only databased sites are locally accessible only.

[TheFlyingOrc]

As I linked in the other thread, they most likely changed their mind due to INTERNET DRAGONS (http://greyshades.wordpress.com/2010/07/08/an-open-letter-to-blizzard/)

[violent]

Now people can finally stop freaking out.

[IIntrude]

The blog (http://asnowstormbyanyothername.blogspot.com/) linked in that article may have had something to do with it as well. Potentially scary stuff.

[Voodoo]

Yay Mike Morhaime! :)

[Narradisall]

Colour me unsurprised.

At least Blizzard listen!

I can go back to never posting on their forums now.

[Xerxes]

http://art.penny-arcade.com/photos/928830626_5PypJ-L.jpg

That's a good thing cause PA has a point. This world is full of crazies, and the least people who know my the better.

[CappinCanuck]

Looks like they're going to use a name + code sort of setup to remove the anonymity from alts. So if you make a level 1 alt simply for trolling, it'll still have the code.

Honestly, why couldn't they have done that to begin with?

Did they reverse the no alts thing too? Pretty sure it's still 1 account, 1 name per cd key. Meaning, no alts.

[Hawkzombie]

Oh, are they doing that? I didn't even hear of that, to be honest.

[CappinCanuck]

Oh, are they doing that? I didn't even hear of that, to be honest.

Yeah, afaik it hasn't changed. Kinda sucks IMO just because I like to change my nick every few years which won't be possible.

[Drayven]

I think they're just a bunch of geniuses. Announce the real name thing on the forums so the internet goes into a tizzy, sneak in the next day and announce major changes to talent trees and no one really says much, then retract the real name thing and you come out ahead.

[Hawkzombie]

Yeah, afaik it hasn't changed. Kinda sucks IMO just because I like to change my nick every few years which won't be possible.

Pay for a name change :p

[DoctorFinger]

Someone on Twitter had a great point. Make the RealID thing optional, but give a mount to anyone who uses it. You'll have close to 90% adoption that way.

[Hawkzombie]

Someone on Twitter had a great point. Make the RealID thing optional, but give a mount to anyone who uses it. You'll have close to 90% adoption that way.

...Sad thing is they're 100% right.

[Dukefrukem]

Good move Blizzard.

[rein]

...Sad thing is they're 100% right...but at least it was their choice.


Or was it? Who can resist a new mount?

[c0m3d14n]

i like the wording:
As a result of those discussions, we've decided at this time that real names will not be required for posting on official Blizzard forums.

[Hotcod]

i like the wording:
As a result of those discussions, we've decided at this time that real names will not be required for posting on official Blizzard forums.

partly it's to save face and they'd be idioits to outright shut the door on ever making the move if something comes up that changes things

[SilentScreams]

Probably the best thing to do. It can get dangerously hot under those tinfoil hats when people get worked up over something like this! :p

In all seriousness though, I don't see any RealID exclusive feature that I actually want, and they're not taking away anything I already have so I probably won't use it anyway.

[OldJadedGamer]

Why not just make two forums. One with your real name and one without? See which one people choose to post on.

[J Arcane]

Now they just need to fix the in-game features.

I'd love to be able to chat with some CoG and RPGsite folks while I play, but as the system stands now I have no desire to do so.

No offense intended, guys, but I don't really know who any of you really are either. Or your friends.

[Chris_D]

Sanity Prevails! might have been a better title.

[Stoke]

Now they just need to fix the in-game features.

I'd love to be able to chat with some CoG and RPGsite folks while I play, but as the system stands now I have no desire to do so.

No offense intended, guys, but I don't really know who any of you really are either. Or your friends.

That's not a problem! Just give us your name and we'll get to know each other real well when we stop by to murder you. ;)


In all seriousness, this is a good thing. I can't imagine why they ever thought this was acceptable but at least reversing the decision shows they haven't completely gone insane as a company yet.

[Mike Kelehan]

Make a sub-forum that you can only read and post if you provide your real name. I'd visit that.

[Farsight]

Make a sub-forum that you can only read and post if you provide your real name. I'd visit that to stalk people.

Fixed it up.

[Xydarc]

I'd say female gamers are the winners. (http://www.metafilter.com/93492/But-my-name-really-is-Deathblood-Blackaxe#3171416) Totally borrowed from PA, btw.

[Karmakin]

Yup. This is the way to do it. All they have to do as well is to change the RealID system to use the numbers/handles as well. And then it'll be PERFECT.

[MagGnome]

I'm glad common sense prevailed.

[J Arcane]

I'd say female gamers are the winners. (http://www.metafilter.com/93492/But-my-name-really-is-Deathblood-Blackaxe#3171416) Totally borrowed from PA, btw.

That is a staggeringly well argued and thorough post. I wish that nice lady had been here for the other thread.

Thank you for the link. It's a good read, for everyone. There are a lot of great points that none of us donghandlers even considered.

[Zero]

Why can't they just make it to where clicking on your name on the forums will link to all your characters? Yeah, you'll get people harassing you on different realms but at least your identity is still safe.

[Vigil80]

For anyone that found the white text on blue background hard to read - perhaps from staring the more pleasant combination of off-white text on dark grey background for hours a day - here is the linked post quoted in its entirety.

Caution: Wall of Text imminent.

I don't play WoW at the moment. I played off and on (mostly on) for the first five years of the game, and I'll play again for a while once the expansion comes out, then probably quit again, etc. Anyway, especially a few years ago when I had the time and inclination to play more, I was fairly active on the forums. My husband still plays, and so do a ton of my friends. So I'm really familiar with how the forums work and what people are like there.

This is a terrible, terrible idea. Especially if the intent is to discourage trolling, there are much more effective solutions available. Some of the reasons why it's terrible have already been brought up, but a bunch of people who are obviously not familiar with the WoW forums have muddied things by making arguments based on incorrect assumptions, so for the sake of having an omnibus "this is why it's bad" post, here we go.

Incorrect Assumption #1: It's already easy to link WoW characters to their real life players.

That's just completely wrong. It's pretty difficult. It's impossible, in fact, unless someone outright tells you their real life name or e-mail address, none of which are available to fellow players. You have to ask someone for those things, and they have to willingly tell you. There are people I played with for years, even had their phone numbers, and I had no idea what their first names were, let alone their last names. For a while we had a guild leader who would delight in not telling us what his real first name was. I've also met nearly a dozen people from WoW in real life. People have different comfort levels about that sort of thing, but the point is it should be their choice.

When you see a character, either in-game or on the forums, you literally do not know anything related to real-life about that character, not even an IP address, unless they willingly supply that information. You don't even know what other characters are on the same account, much less what character belongs to what player. You'd have to work for Blizzard on the forums to see any of that information, and they're not allowed to disclose it. While it's true that an employee could just do it anyway, I think it's reasonable that people have some expectation of privacy in that regard. I'm not sure that I've ever heard of someone having their real life identity discovered without their willingly giving away obvious information, either their name or they're linked to their website and someone did a whois.

Keep in mind that few forums exist that display your full real-life name with your posts. You usually have some kind of username. Metafilter is like this. Maybe you can link that to an e-mail address and someone knows it's you that way -- and lots of forums will even keep that private if you want. But plenty of people -- for good reason -- keep their work and private e-mails separate. A lot of us cringe to think what others could dig up about us just using our e-mail address -- but let's be honest, it's because we either don't care that much or we've been sloppy. Both of those things are under our control.

The change Blizzard is making on the WoW forums isn't like that; it doesn't give you a choice except to stop using the WoW forums, or else lie about your name which isn't a great idea if you ever have a billing conflict or need to verify that you own the account. The latter happens whenever someone gets hacked, and people get hacked a lot, even smart computer-savvy people I'd think would never get hacked; once a few people I knew got hacked because someone inserted malicious code into a banner ad on a popular WoW website. The website fixed the problem, but still, everyone thought it was safe and it even took a while for anyone to figure out what had caused it. Point is: hacking is common and getting more sophisticated, you need your account info to be accurate.

So, right, the privacy-conscious people will stop using the forums. I just think it's ridiculous to force people's hand that way when it's not necessary.

Incorrect Assumption #2: People won't actually harass other people outside the game, come on.

This is just wrong. I don't know how else to put it. It's a lovely thought, but people go to great lengths simply to harass others in-game, and just handing the real name to them without their even having to do any work for it makes it easier to harass them outside the game. If you really, truly think it won't lead to harassment, you are underestimating both teenagers and angry, socially ill-adjusted people -- a ton of whom play WoW, alongside all the normal people. People already go to crazy lengths to e-stalk people and some of it already culminates in real life confrontations. I have trouble believing that anyone who says this has actually ever played an MMO, so if you haven't, please consider that you might not know what you're talking about and people aren't just paranoid and complaining about nothing.

And, more on this in a moment, but one really needs experience in the gaming community to comment on it. Particularly those in doubt of women being SEVERELY harassed in-game and, yes, on the forums. The gaming world is way more hostile to women than you think. I wish it weren't, I really, really do, and I know you mean well, but please do not say you doubt those things when I and other women have been through a lot in that regard. The WoW forums is not Metafilter by ANY stretch of the imagination. I would not mind my real name being on Metafilter and I've posted things here I wouldn't tell my mother, but I would probably cry if my real name was next to my WoW posts. It's not because I make a fool of myself on the WoW forums, either, but-- well, you'll see in a moment.

Incorrect Assumption #3: There's no good reason to keep your identity separate from the gaming community. If you're worried about someone from WoW finding you on Facebook, then why are you even on Facebook?

The answer to this is so long you'll just have to read my list of reasons why this is bad. The short version is: because the gaming community has a different culture than society in general, and it actually does make a big difference whether they know things that you don't try to keep hidden in real life. It's absolutely rational and sane to have 500 Facebook friends and not want anyone from WoW to know anything about you.

Reasons Why This Is Bad, Even If You're Not a Troll:
1. Girls are going to get harassed more than they already do. Just like in real life, while plenty of gamer guys are decent people -- gamer guys are the majority of my closest friends -- there are a ton of asshole gamer guys who make life hell for players who are openly female. Really, the gamer community is a much more hostile place for women than society in general. I never tried to hide my gender, so I have a ton of anecdotes I could tell you.

Here's the shit a female gamer has to deal with:
* People assume that you're not actually a girl, and you're just playing a girl character so you get "free stuff" from guys. This is actually the least bothersome thing. (For the record, I never got "free stuff." I think to get free stuff you actually have to cyber someone, or at least make them think you might, and I had no interest in any of those things.)

* constant requests -- some anonymous and some not, some crass and some just creepy -- asking for pictures, and these will not let up, EVER. In my case, the requests did not let up after five years.

* If you do post a picture (I never did) people either go nuts over how hot you are and won't leave you alone -- and the guys that perv on you treat you in a condescending way because hot=stupid; having to hear that shit addressed to other girls on Vent was really infuriating and uncomfortable -- OR they make a point of constantly telling you how ugly you are and won't leave you alone. There is no middle ground. They either want to fuck you or deride you. And it actually doesn't matter how hot or how ugly you are, either; the hottest girls will get called ugly (and FAT, ALWAYS FAT), and the ugliest girls still have to deal with lonely guys who aren't superficial. Any time the girl posts something thereafter, people will comment on her appearance, even though it has nothing to do with whatever is being discussed.

* if you don't post a picture they all sit around and speculate, and some people inevitably decide that you're not posting a picture because you're ugly, and therefore they don't like you. It does not occur to a great many people that a girl might not want guys bothering them for any reason. If you try to defend yourself, you're an attention whore.

Similar to pseudonymph, whenever someone asked me what I looked like I'd say something like, "I'm 350 pounds, all woman." Which always irritated me a bit: I said it because it was effective -- it made them less interested in asking, plus they usually thought it was funny and I didn't come across as prissy so it defused two concerns they'd have about female gamers -- but I didn't like perpetrating the idea that fat people are disgusting or something to be laughed at. I just never came up with another response that worked as well. :-/

* I got daily messages from people I didn't know because they liked my forum posts. This was bothersome for a few reasons. Some of whom were just normal people being nice and it was only bothersome as a distraction, but a fraction of them were lonely guys excited to be talking to a girl. The latter would bother me constantly. Other women I played with also dealt with these kinds of guys.

* If you ask someone to leave you alone, you're a stuck up bitch. That means you always have to be nice to everyone. This was both unfair and character-building, because now I'm really good at talking to and disengaging from socially ill-adjusted people without hurting their feelings.

* You are automatically a therapist and guys come to you for advice. This isn't so bad when friends do it, but you also have to patiently listen to a lot of emotionally-fragile guys you don't know very well. If this were infrequent it wouldn't be so bad. When it's constant and it's using up leisure time that you wanted to spend actually playing the game, it's really draining.

* People assume that you're bad at the game; they assume that any gear you got was given to you because you're a girl, and that your entire guild just started carrying you through raid instances because they were driven senseless by your siren song. It doesn't matter if you're in one of the top guilds in the US and doing content where you really can't carry bad players through. They can believe you're a good healer, sometimes. If you're a damage-dealing class they can't believe you could possibly be as good as a guy until they see raid reports. They will never believe you can tank.

* Some people think anything you do or say is attention-whoring, even if you never wanted the attention. If a guy makes a joke in a forum post, he's a funny guy. If a girl makes a joke in a forum post, she's an attention whore. If a guy makes a good argument in a forum post, he's a smart guy. If a girl makes a good argument in a forum post, she's doing it for attention. She's ESPECIALLY an attention whore if people like her or agree with her.

* Similarly, people assume that the only reason anyone likes you is because they're one of your fanboys. So people don't genuinely think women or funny or make good arguments, they're just fanboys. If other girls like you, then it's because women form cliques -- even if in the previous breath they were saying that women are all catty and hate each other.

* Even if people tend to assume you're male from your writing style, once they know your gender, some people tend to read everything in the shrillest way possible. You could literally copy and paste a guy's post and get an entirely different reaction.

* All of this applies to underage girls. I've played alongside 14, 15, 16 year old girls who would deal with all this horrible stuff every day. Often worse stuff really, since they didn't yet have the best handle on how to deal with it.

Want to hear some scary shit? One 14 year old girl whose father also played had to change her character's name and transfer her to another server because some guy was e-stalking her. If her real life name (or her father's name) were next to her character's name in forum posts she wouldn't be very safe right now, would she?

* For all of the above, it doesn't really matter much if you're married or in a long-term relationship. It doesn't stop anyone. The only real difference is that if you're married, people assume you're old and unattractive and probably controlling. (I stopped playing WoW when I was 24, and I'm about to turn 26.) Within my guild there was pretty much no fear that I was going to try to woo my way to anything at least, but outside the guild people keep thinking whatever they want.

I was really lucky to be in a guild with guys that AREN'T assholes, so I had a reason to keep playing even if random forum people would be assholes sometimes. For whatever reason, our guild was full of mostly rational, unprejudiced people; we would reject applicants that weren't those things. We were in a position where we could be that picky, but most guilds don't do well enough to get enough apps that they can afford to reject people for character flaws. Once our GM actually got on an app's case for creeping out the girls in the guild -- just basically warning him that he was not making us feel flattered -- and then he kicked him out of the guild a few days later when nothing changed; that GM had a pretty good understanding of what was skeezy and why we shouldn't have to put up with it. We were lucky for that, because the guy in question wasn't being crass or lewd, he was just kind of a stereotypical dorky guy who thought women liked to be treated like Renaissance maidens instead of people; he couldn't seem to understand we didn't want him to flirt with us even in a "harmless" complimentary way, that we just wanted to be left the fuck alone. One of the women in question wasn't even afraid to be really mean and condescending to him about it, and he STILL kept it up because he was too awkward to know how to do anything else. This is the sort of stuff we had to deal with.

Ours was an extraordinary guild, though; we've gone to great lengths to see each other IRL even since most of us quit WoW, and most guilds don't have that kind of protection and camaraderie. In most guilds no one would think there was anything wrong with that guy's behavior and we'd be too "sensitive" if we complained about it. For many girls, the solution is either to grit their teeth through it and say very little -- which isn't feasible if you want to raid, because any decent raiding guild requires you use a voice client. But if you don't want to raid, you can have male characters and just never disclose your gender. My primary character was female, but after seeing how that went, I made all my alts male just to get a goddamn break when I needed it. Several times when I quit the game it was because it had become too draining to deal with anymore; guys can just log in and have fun and log off, but girls have to log in and deal with everyone who wants to talk to them. After a while logging in meant I would spend all night typing while flying aimlessly around Shattrath instead of actually doing anything fun. I'm an introvert so I was especially worn down. You can't just not respond to people because they keep trying, or they think you're stuck-up, or they're seriously emotionally fragile and you really don't want to hurt their feelings, and they can always ask someone else in your guild to make sure you're not AFK. It sucks. I mean, you can do all that anyway, if you want to get harassed.

The only way to play it if you're not going to lay low is to have a pristine rep, and it's constant work. I accepted that as a sacrifice for not hiding my gender and wanting to actually be able to talk to my friends on the forums like guys get to do. I never thought it was fair but I was able to weigh the consequences and make a choice. But if you attach real life names to characters, a woman pretty much can't post on the forums anymore unless they're willing to deal with all of the above -- plus more, since everyone can look up her name on Facebook and pick apart her appearance! All the women that lie low for their own sanity aren't going to have that choice anymore, even if all they want to do is help someone out on the forums, or make a post looking for or selling something, or what-have-you.

2. Minorities will get harassed.

A sizable portion of gamers are racist. (Sexism, racism, and homophobia are what make me most uncomfortable about the gaming community; in a serious way I feel more connection to gamers than any other group, so this pains me. Plenty of gamers are none of these things and I love them to death, but I think those same gamers realize what a huge problem it is in the community in general.) An even bigger portion of gamers are just not very racially sensitive -- they'll use "nigger" or "Jew" a lot, for example, even if they don't think they actively feel anything against those groups, because they think it's funny. In the same way that saying stuff is "gay" is especially pronounced in the gamer community, even the people that say slurs ironically or by force of habit inadvertently make actual bigots in the gaming community feel empowered because they don't realize other people don't mean those things like they do. It is much more common and acceptable to express racist opinions in the gaming community than society at large.

Plus -- I hate to say this -- I've found that a lot of people in that latter category who don't feel like they're actively prejudiced against minorities actually do think black and Mexican people in particular are stupid. I've realized that about some gamers I'm friends with and it's not a great feeling; you have to hang around them a while before something comes up that makes you notice it, like how they interpret a comment they overheard from a black person, that sort of thing. It's usually people that grew up around only other white people; gamers that grew up around minorities tend to use the slurs because they're using to trading friendly jabs with minority friends, and they aren't actually racist and know when not to use the slurs. Unfortunately, the obliviously racist gamers especially tend not to understand why you wouldn't want to say those things even jokingly to a minority you don't know; they don't think they're racist, so their reasoning is that people shouldn't take offense. But it can get really uncomfortable when it's clear to everyone else that they actually are a little racist and don't realize it, and it's just as hurtful as a real racist remark when they're trying to be funny and the assumption shines through anyway.

Putting people's real life name on their posts just encourages people to drag their race into the discussion, whether they're being hateful or just think they're being funny. I've seen Black and Hispanic gamers in particular get a whole lot of crap already and they're often not forthcoming about their ethnicity. It doesn't even necessarily come through on voice clients so it's easier than hiding gender. Just like I don't blame women who chose to lay low so they can have fun playing the game instead of being drained by dealing with people, I don't blame minorities who do the same thing. They shouldn't have to deal with people's bullshit because their last name is Rodriguez or Goldstein.

And if anyone wants to say, "Well real life is like that," fantastic. WoW is a game. It's not supposed to be serious business. People play games as long as they're fun, and being harassed isn't fun. It's no one's moral obligation to be the banner-carrier for justice 24/7. If someone wants to make their gender or race (or sexual orientation) known in WoW so they can chip away at the problems in the gaming community, that's certainly praiseworthy. My guild was great so I and the other women and minorities and gays in the guild could feel a little more comfortable being open about that stuff. But it shouldn't be thrust on anyone.

3. You don't have to be a troll to not want your name attached to your posts. There is still a bit of a gaming stigma, and there is an especially strong WoW stigma.

I have friends that keep their WoW-playing secret. A lot of friends, actually. I think it's kind of silly but I understand the impetus because just like the gaming community has a different culture, they spend their real lives in cultures that stigmatize gaming. Some people deal with constant bullshit in MMOs because they're female or a minority or gay; some people deal with constant bullshit IRL because everyone they know thinks only losers or people with mental problems play MMOs. Several people in our guild were in the armed services and kept WoW a secret because the attitude toward MMOs was so negative there. Other people have relatives who literally think things like WoW are demonic.

Hell, even within WoW there is a stigma against playing it too much. I was in the top raiding guild on our server and we were constantly having to deal with people saying, "You're only doing so well because you play so much!" We were constantly struggling to finish everything for the week in two evenings just so we could say, "NUH UH, we play less than you do, you're just bad!" And then guildies would gossip about the few people in the guild that really did play constantly -- there were always a couple. If someone had some awesome item on their alt that you wanted for your main, well: at least you weren't a loser that played everyday like they did -- I mean you get laid at least, goddamn, you're too busy being cool IRL to have a good alt. Playing WoW is considered waaaay less cool than playing anything else.

Outside of WoW it's worse: for non-gamers, WoW may as well be the only MMO anyone has ever heard of, and they haven't heard good things; finding out someone plays WoW isn't like finding out they played Uncharted. Employers who don't know any better might feel apprehensive about hiring someone who plays WoW since the stereotype is that WoW players are irresponsible and end up losing their jobs. Sure, every now and then it might work in someone's favor -- I've had bosses who play WoW, and some of my husband's NASA colleagues do too -- but it should be someone's choice whether they reveal that sort of thing.

Again, I'm all for being open about things in order to change attitudes, but it shouldn't be forced on anyone. You don't have to actually feel shame for playing WoW to want to avoid dealing with bullshit from judgmental people; I'd argue that anyone who doesn't feel shame would be making a rational decision to avoid engaging with small-minded people on the topic. I mean, how many of us avoid talking about politics or religion? Most of us aren't ashamed, we just know it would be a contentious waste of time if our granny knew we we didn't hate gay people. And for the smaller subset that actually do feel shame -- and yes, I know some of those too -- "you shouldn't be such a wuss" doesn't outweigh privacy anyway. People should be able to be wusses if they want.

4. A lot of parents are going to have their teenager's posts linked to their name because their name is on the account.

Best case scenario is that the teenager is a perfect angel on the WoW forums, and everyone still sees a ton of WoW posts attached to the parent's name in Google searches. Bad for all the reasons above.

Less-than-best case scenario is the teenager engages in some colorful gamer humor, which, even if it isn't racist, is probably mildly sexual and insulting. Not really something you want appearing in an employer's Google search, or that you want your friends and family finding.

Worst case scenario is the child says some crazy shit and the parent looks crazy.

5. People who don't play WoW will get harassed or have WoW associated with them if someone else with the same name posts on the WoW forums.

6. If you're able to easily lie about your name in the forums to get out of privacy concerns, that just opens another can of worms.

7. It probably won't do that much to stop trolling.

If you're able to change what name is displayed, it won't stop trolling at all. But even if you can't change what name shows up, plenty of people already get a second account to post from and will keep doing that; this, of course, is also an option for privacy-conscious people, but they shouldn't have to pay more money when they're not doing anything wrong.

Plus there are people who don't care if you know their real name as long as you don't know what character they play; they're worried about in-game ramifications if people don't like them -- i.e. people won't let them into their group, or their guild, or they won't be able to sell anything. So while real life privacy is important to a lot of people, in-game privacy is just as important to others. (I think someone already noted upthread that some people prefer to keep all their forum activity separate from their main character, even when they're not trolling.)

Some people happily troll from their main already and just don't care that other people don't like them. When people troll on their main they're usually pretty polarizing and end up with as many friends as enemies, and some people are comfortable with that. My server had a guy that would be a troll on his main and I actually thought he was pretty funny, in a guilty pleasure sort of way; he would mostly bait people that were already raging about something stupid so it was hard to feel bad for them.

Will it stop some trolling, though? Probably. So would better moderation. So would a lot of things. Speaking of which...

8. There is a better solution.

Just let people see what characters are on the same account as the character that's posting. It doesn't violate their privacy nearly as much as the current solution and it would be enough to deter most people from trolling because they don't want their trolling associated with their main. All that'd be left is people trolling from dummy accounts, which it sounds like they can do under the new system anyway, so Blizzard would just make some extra money off crazy cowards.

Why in this world they thought this would be more appropriate is beyond me. I can't think of a single forum that I use that requires you to display you first and last name with your posts, and WoW sure as hell isn't important enough to warrant that.

[Chris_D]

Indeed, some good points. I was listening to Weekend Confirmed's take on it earlier today and quickly realised (obvious in hindsight!) that a bunch of guys who already have their real name out there on everything they do and only plan to work within the gaming industry for the foreseeable future, aren't likely to have the most balanced viewpoint on the situation.

[BigJonno]

That was a good read, certainly comprehensive, although one bit did make me laugh.

It's absolutely rational and sane to have 500 Facebook friends and not want anyone from WoW to know anything about you.

No. No it isn't. It isn't rational and sane to have 500 Facebook friends full stop. How do people end up with hundreds of people on Facebook? I have around fifty and that includes a bunch of people from my old job that I really couldn't care less about. I could add every person from any of my classes at school, every single person I worked with and every passing acquaintance from every activity I've ever been involved in and I think I might just about get to that many people.

I have to admit, I actually like the idea of RealID being used for cross-game chat. I hate MMOs where people can see all of your characters when you've made friends with them. I do think there is a stage where your relationships with people online go from "some guy I raid with" to "one of my friends." There are people on CoG I consider just as much my friend as anyone who I've actually met in the flesh, a few of my closes friends excepted. I know some people still have a hang up about stuff that happens on the internet "not being real" but I think that's just silly at this point.

So when I think of people who I'm happy to let contact me whenever I'm on WoW or playing SC2 or whatever and I compare that to people who I'm happy to give my real name to, there's almost a total overlap.

While I understand people wishing to maintain some level of privacy online, I do find it highly amusing that people will give their real name over to perhaps dozens of total strangers in the course of a day, people who have either seen you, know more of your personal details or both, but 100% refuse to give out their real name to anyone online. It's up there with people who refuse to shop online, but will give their credit card details over the phone, or hand the card to a waiter and let him walk off with it.

[Widgetcraft]

While I understand people wishing to maintain some level of privacy online, I do find it highly amusing that people will give their real name over to perhaps dozens of total strangers in the course of a day, people who have either seen you, know more of your personal details or both, but 100% refuse to give out their real name to anyone online. It's up there with people who refuse to shop online, but will give their credit card details over the phone, or hand the card to a waiter and let him walk off with it.

Do you give those people a reason to screw with you? No. But I can guarantee you that World of Warcraft, by it's very nature, will force you into pissing people off on a regular basis. Does some random cashier have a reason to harass me? No. Does the guy who just lost a roll on an uber-rare mount have a reason to harass me? Maybe, depending on just how crazy he is.

How about this: Go outside and give your name to a crazy homeless person. Steal his cup of change. Now you're playing World of Warcraft without anonymity. You'll benefit more from that than you would have this change in policy, at least could buy a cup of coffee or something. Revealing everyone's names on the World of Warcraft forums would have simply given trolls more information than you'd like them to have.

By the way, on the matter of trolling: Bullshit posts on forums is like the lowest level of trolling. Real trolling happens in the real world, to people who may or may not deserve it. Ever heard of Christian Weston Chandler? He's a mentally handicapped guy who brought trolling upon himself, to the point that there are multiple wikis, forums, chatrooms and what I could only describe as cabals dedicated to messing with him. That's the most extreme case I can think of, and an example of someone bringing trolling upon themselves.

There are plenty of people who are simply victims, outright. People who post something on Livejournal, or Myspace, which gets picked up by the wrong people, and suddenly their internet life comes slamming into their real world in the form of elaborate pranks, or outright harrassment. All people need is a name, sometimes not even that. I know of at least one example where people had a simple picture, no name, no address, no Myspace profile, no face... and used that to track down a person. They found her myspace profile, and confirmed her identity by objects on her bookshelf being in identical locations on the picture they had, and the picture on her profile. That's how dedicated some of these people are. Soon she found very humiliating information being distributed to friends and family.

All I'm saying is: No one on World of Warcraft has any reason to know my real name, so they can go ahead and fuck off. I don't have a reason to be worried about my internet and real world life coming together, but unless there is a good reason to allow for that possibility, I'll pass. Again, it's been a general rule for a good fifteen (plus) years that you just don't give out a lot of personal information to random people on the internet. It's a good rule, and it's a rule that people should follow.

[BigJonno]

I'm not talking about giving away your name to random people, I'm talking about giving your name to people you consider friends. Look at CoG. As a community, we talk to each other every day. It's not just about games, we share all kinds of stuff. We play games together. We have meet ups at events and cons, or just for the hell of it. I bet most regulars here have at least a few genuine friends among the community. To not be happy giving out your name to those people because you "only" know them online, but to be quite happy to go to a party or something and be introduced to a bunch of people you know nothing about is, in my opinion, weird.

[Generation ABXY]

For anyone that found the white text on blue background hard to read - perhaps from staring the more pleasant combination of off-white text on dark grey background for hours a day - here is the linked post quoted in its entirety.

Pfft, what an attention whore. Seriously, though, that was a great post.

[Mike Kelehan]

I'd say female gamers are the winners. (http://www.metafilter.com/93492/But-my-name-really-is-Deathblood-Blackaxe#3171416) Totally borrowed from PA, btw.

That is a staggeringly well argued and thorough post. I wish that nice lady had been here for the other thread.

Thank you for the link. It's a good read, for everyone. There are a lot of great points that none of us donghandlers even considered.

I had really supported this measure as a way of cleaning up the (currently unusable) forums, but I totally hadn't considered what it might be like for a woman on there. She makes excellent points, and points that I think may have had a large part in Blizzard's backpedaling.

[Narradisall]

I read her post, very well written and thought out.

She was pretty much spot on with the gamer guys thing though. When I played WoW a guy in our guild ended up getting kicked when he started to seriously stalk one of our guild members. Can't remember how, but I think she posted a picture of herself on our guild forum page.

It is sad that there are a ton of gamer guys that just can't seem to handle a girl in their game (for whatever reason).

[Hawkzombie]

Hell, look at some of the posters here who go ga-ga over new women members.

[Stoke]

I read her post, very well written and thought out.

She was pretty much spot on with the gamer guys thing though. When I played WoW a guy in our guild ended up getting kicked when he started to seriously stalk one of our guild members. Can't remember how, but I think she posted a picture of herself on our guild forum page.

It is sad that there are a ton of gamer guys that just can't seem to handle a girl in their game (for whatever reason).

Indeed. It's not just gamer guys though, it's guys on the internet period. It seems most of the nerdy, socially retarded guys that can't talk to a girl in real life make it their mission to do so online and they just have no reference for what is and isn't appropriate.

[Exodus]

I really wish there was a way to solve internet creeping but in order to do that I can't possibly see it happening without the use of big brother tactics.

The woman in that link is ridiculous and is naive if she thinks that she's safe with the way things work now.

I haven't played in about 4yrs but I doubt it has changed and it's probably become easier now. All I need is her character's name not even her real name.

[Generation ABXY]

Assuming we're talking about the same link, I don't think she thought she was safe so much as safer... at least with the current setup, your would-be stalker has to a little bit of legwork.

[Exodus]

Assuming we're talking about the same link, I don't think she thought she was safe so much as safer... at least with the current setup, your would-be stalker has to a little bit of legwork.

All I'm saying is, is that someone simply has to take an interest. That is all that's required.

[Superman's Dead]

Really? I thought the points about being a woman gamer were discussed in the other thread days ago.

Also Jonno, with those of us who went into school as facebook was growing it became more a tool to meet and recognize people on campus than to deal with people you already knew. And as much as people use it like a super-intense briefing on every aspect of their life, kept simple I don't think 500 is a super-high number or out of the question. I went to three large schools and have just of 700 friends, and I've upped the privacy options like woah.

What I think is unreasonable, however, is a girl I knew in high school who was a contestant on American Idol. She has over 3,500 friends, and I doubt she even recognizes the posts of anyone she's actually met.

[Exodus]

You stay in contact with 700 people every day?

Jeez.....

I barely talk to even 30...

[Superman's Dead]

No. God no. A lot of those were people it was useful to keep in contact with via the internet at one time, and only politeness keeps me from removing them from my friends list. Instead of deleting them I periodically move people I don't want in track of me to my limited profile.

[Hawkzombie]

Yeah, I use Facebook to keep in touch with some old friends, but family mostly. Also, it's a hub for all things geek around me as well. The local comic shop organizes events, and people can RSVP to them through Facebook. Also, a group of use have a group for our comic projects, etc. I actually use it for networking quite a bit.

[Widgetcraft]

I honestly don't understand Facebook. I signed up for it back in college before it was open to everyone, and... it was useless. It's probably the most pointless thing I've ever signed up for. It's like the shittiest blog you could ever imagine, and nothing more. The way people talk about it makes it sound like some kind of instant messenger service, but if that's what it is, I apparently didn't get it at the time.

[Superman's Dead]

Well rest assured, I find it a useful way to keep in touch with people, some of whom may get me hired in the future.

[Superman's Dead]

Also, pretty girls

[Exodus]

I honestly don't understand Facebook. I signed up for it back in college before it was open to everyone, and... it was useless. It's probably the most pointless thing I've ever signed up for. It's like the shittiest blog you could ever imagine, and nothing more. The way people talk about it makes it sound like some kind of instant messenger service, but if that's what it is, I apparently didn't get it at the time.

I think of facebook as a camp fire that everyone sits around before they go to bed. Someone will say...I'm having a party and you you and you are invited! and...hey do you want to come to my art gallery opening? or hey my game just shipped! and holy fuck you worked on that man or good work cousin i'm glad you had a baby.

I've stopped using though. 7 days going strong!

[Hawkzombie]

Nah, the message stuff came later.

It's good for networking and stuff now, when it was only for colleges it wasn't that big a deal.

[Narradisall]

I've been on FB years. I find it's mainly a tool for organising events. Instead of sending out 50 texts you can throw up an event and invite everyone, saves time, and money.

To me, it's a tool to organise social events, not a replacement for them.

[BigJonno]

For me it's a way of keeping up with people I know, but don't get to see very often. I never got into the whole mobile phone thing due to not liking telephones so it's the only regular communication channel I have with a lot of people.

[Chris_D]

I use it to keep in touch with my RL contacts. It works pretty well for that.

[MagGnome]

You stay in contact with 700 people every day?

Jeez.....

I barely talk to even 30...

You talk to all of your friends and family every single day? :confused:


One of my friends has over 800 friends on Facebook. I call him a friend whore. :p


I've been on FB years. I find it's mainly a tool for organising events. Instead of sending out 50 texts you can throw up an event and invite everyone, saves time, and money.

To me, it's a tool to organise social events, not a replacement for them.

I don't even bother checking event invites on Facebook anymore. Most of them are crap that people have invited every single one of their "friends" to. It's so impersonal that I'm just turned off by the whole thing.

Just the other day a friend called and asked me why I'm not going to his birthday party. I told him that I didn't recall being invited, and he told me that he'd sent an event invite on Facebook. I've told him many times that I don't check Facebook invites. I'm going to his party now, so thankfully that was resolved.

[Narradisall]

I don't even bother checking event invites on Facebook anymore. Most of them are crap that people have invited every single one of their "friends" to. It's so impersonal that I'm just turned off by the whole thing.

Thats why I keep only friends I talk to, see and spend a lot of time with on FB.

I cull my friends at least once a year. :eek:

[MagGnome]

I culled several friends a month or so ago from Facebook and my phone.

Boy has that come back to bite me in the ass. :eek:

[Stoke]

I culled several friends a month or so ago from Facebook and my phone.

Boy has that come back to bite me in the ass. :eek:

Unbelievable how pissy some people can get over something like that eh? I've had someone tell me they were annoyed with me because I didn't talk to them much on facebook. At the time I was their roomate.

Needless to say I just ignored them.

[CappinCanuck]

Unbelievable how pissy some people can get over something like that eh? I've had someone tell me they were annoyed with me because I didn't talk to them much on facebook. At the time I was their roomate.

Needless to say I just ignored them.

No kidding. About 4 months ago I had about 300+ friends. I turned off my wall, and culled about 100 people. I just culled another 100. F' facebook. Annoying thing that it is. It's nothing more than a contact info list for me now. I log on maybe once every 2-4 weeks and say good riddance.

[MagGnome]

I've had people get really annoyed with me because I didn't see the photos that they had uploaded.

I informed them that I do not have the time to look at every single person's updates on Facebook.

I did not, however, inform them that I probably would have the time if I didn't surf COG. :p

[ShivaX]

I've had people get really annoyed with me because I didn't see the photos that they had uploaded.

I informed them that I do not have the time to look at every single person's updates on Facebook.

I did not, however, inform them that I probably would have the time if I didn't surf COG. :p

Wow, that would drive me insane.

My facebook is a few friends, people I went to high school with/worked with and some relatives. I don't check anyone's status or page... well ever really. Maybe every few days I'll randomly click on a picture in the "Your Friends" thing and see what someone is up to.

[Goronmon]

No. No it isn't. It isn't rational and sane to have 500 Facebook friends full stop. Of course it is. Not even sure how you think it's a big deal?

How do people end up with hundreds of people on Facebook?
Not hard, just add friends/family/coworkers/classmates/etc... and friends of friends that you meet. Over the course of a few years that adds up to quite a bit. Especially if you are active socially. I'm not a super social person, I don't use Facebook very much and I still have 137 "friends" without even really trying.

While I understand people wishing to maintain some level of privacy online, I do find it highly amusing that people will give their real name over to perhaps dozens of total strangers in the course of a day, people who have either seen you, know more of your personal details or both, but 100% refuse to give out their real name to anyone online. It's up there with people who refuse to shop online, but will give their credit card details over the phone, or hand the card to a waiter and let him walk off with it.
You find it amusing because your assumptions are wrong. Just because you might not be a social person, doesn't mean that everyone else in the world is the same way.

[Hawkzombie]

I've never met Savok, and yet the man has trusted me with his Credit Card number before :p

[BigJonno]

Of course it is. Not even sure how you think it's a big deal?


Not hard, just add friends/family/coworkers/classmates/etc... and friends of friends that you meet. Over the course of a few years that adds up to quite a bit. Especially if you are active socially. I'm not a super social person, I don't use Facebook very much and I still have 137 "friends" without even really trying.


You find it amusing because your assumptions are wrong. Just because you might not be a social person, doesn't mean that everyone else in the world is the same way.

Ooookay. See that "friends of friends that you meet" bit, that's where I think things get out of control. I find it's the people who do that who also put every tiny detail of their lives on Facebook.

As for telling me that my assumption are wrong, what assumptions have I made? The simple observation that many people are unwilling to give out their name to somebody they have regular interactions with online, but still give out lots of personal information to people they meet in real life? You get introduced to someone at a party and chat for ten minutes and they probably know your name, where you work, details about your family and some other stuff, depending on where the conversation went. On top of that, they can put a face to that name and likely have a rough idea of where you live.

I just feel that to be okay with the latter, but not the former is a little odd and shows an irrational level of paranoia about online interaction.

As for you saying I'm not social, that's just you making assumptions about me that you can use to support your criticism.

[Hotcod]

As for telling me that my assumption are wrong, what assumptions have I made? The simple observation that many people are unwilling to give out their name to somebody they have regular interactions with online, but still give out lots of personal information to people they meet in real life? You get introduced to someone at a party and chat for ten minutes and they probably know your name, where you work, details about your family and some other stuff, depending on where the conversation went. On top of that, they can put a face to that name and likely have a rough idea of where you live.

People miss the difference between what is an one on one interaction for which each person is accountable to the other and and open interaction with millions of people you don't know with zero accountability.

of course the crazy stalker could just take it online but if you meet some one at party and start having online problems and ask around your freinds some one is bound to have an idea who the crazy people are and you can put 2 and 2 together.

I think the point I'm trying to make is that trying to say "but you do this face to face" as an argument here is at best a not very useful comparison and at worst a false one.

Yes the person you talk to at the party maybe a crazy stalker but you have a good idea of who they are and even if they lied to you about everything the chance are your social circle that put you at the party will have the information you need to combat the problem.

Crazy stalker online? You have no idea where they come from, who they are or why they are doing what they are doing. You can't connect the issues to any person or have any group that can help you track them down and deal with them.

[BigJonno]

People miss the difference between what is an one on one interaction for which each person is accountable to the other and and open interaction with millions of people you don't know with zero accountability.

How many times do I have to say this? I'm not talking about openly sharing any information online. I've not mentioned that at all. I'm specifically referring to giving one piece of information (your name) to a specific person that you know and trust online. I've stated that several times in this thread.

[Hotcod]

Well ok, I've only skimmed this thread but every time you post this point it seems to be in response to some one talking about giving out information openly. I'm sorry if I misunderstood but it seems a little redundant to me to say "you give out your name to a few people every day and so giving out the name to a friend online is fine" in a thread that is about the very fact that blizzard wanted to take the choice of who to trust away from you and throw that information out in public. I've personally not seen an argument here or else where that giving info to people you know and trust to a level online is wrong but again I've only skim read most of this thread.

I just don't see to get the main thrust of your argument. On one hand you are bemused by the fact people can have 500 facebook friends while on the other you are bemused that people won't, say, put a person they know just from online on to facebook.

[Exodus]

Having 500 people or more on your friends list isn't hard.

Maintaining an interest in 500 people is hard. I get yelled at for not talking to a people all the time and they get butt hurt saying...oh i didn't think we were friends anymore. Then there's the friends with the emo messages...dear lord.

Cya facebook. I'd rather be off the grid.

[TheFlyingOrc]

Of course it is. Not even sure how you think it's a big deal?

Not hard, just add friends/family/coworkers/classmates/etc... and friends of friends that you meet. Over the course of a few years that adds up to quite a bit. Especially if you are active socially. I'm not a super social person, I don't use Facebook very much and I still have 137 "friends" without even really trying.

Facebook is, for me, a repository of any contacts I might want at any point in my life ever. It's a list of everyone whose name I knew at some point in time.

When I click "accept" that just means "I know this person".

I also use it to look at people who were dicks in high school and see how poorly their life is going and feeling superior.

[Hawkzombie]

I also use it to look at people who were dicks in high school and see how poorly their life is going and feeling superior.

Until it backfires and you see they're doing better than you are :p

[Exodus]

Until it backfires and you see they're doing better than you are :p

It has been said that living well is the best revenge!

[BigJonno]

I also use it to look at people who were dicks in high school and see how poorly their life is going and feeling superior.

I ended up looking at pics of a bunch of people I went to school with and what struck me is how old many of them look. I'm 27 and I usually get pegged a few years older than that, probably because of the beard (I also noticed a liberal sprinkling of grey in my hair yesterday. I'd spotted one or two before, but it's definitely turning now.) Some of the guys the same age as me could easily be approaching 40. One guy I went to college with who was a few years younger than me has already got a hairline receding so rapidly that he's halfway bald.

[nnanji]

I ended up looking at pics of a bunch of people I went to school with and what struck me is how old many of them look. I'm 27 and I usually get pegged a few years older than that, probably because of the beard (I also noticed a liberal sprinkling of grey in my hair yesterday. I'd spotted one or two before, but it's definitely turning now.) Some of the guys the same age as me could easily be approaching 40. One guy I went to college with who was a few years younger than me has already got a hairline receding so rapidly that he's halfway bald.

At least it waited until his twenties. I've known a few people that went bald in their teens. A friend of mine was using Rogaine when he was 16 and it still didn't help him.

[Stoke]

At least it waited until his twenties. I've known a few people that went bald in their teens. A friend of mine was using Rogaine when he was 16 and it still didn't help him.

This is the truth. Fuck whoever reproduced way back when with a receding hairline. That is a trait we did not need. I'm only 23 and already have to wear my hair long or go with a hat. I'm not willing to shave/buzz yet because I know once I do I'll never be able to go back.

Haircuts are the worst. I just go in accepting that I will be wearing a hat at all times for the next few weeks until my hair grows out enough to look decent. Doesn't matter how I tell them to cut it it's still butchered and it pissed me off even though it's mostly my (parents) fault. If I sound bitter it's because I got a haircut today.

[Hawkzombie]

What I find most shocking is who ended up marrying who. One the other day TOTALLY threw me for a loop. The guy was a douche and not all that good looking and was in my class. His wife was a year ahead, hot, and a cheerleader.

Stranger things.

[BigJonno]

What I find most shocking is who ended up marrying who. One the other day TOTALLY threw me for a loop. The guy was a douche and not all that good looking and was in my class. His wife was a year ahead, hot, and a cheerleader.

Stranger things.

Psh, that's normal! Hollywood taught me that. If a hot, popular cheerleader doesn't have a major reformation just in time for graduation, her life is basically over and she'll end up married to some dickwad.

[MagGnome]

My hairline is higher up than I'd like. I'm not ready to call it a "receding" one just yet. :(

[SilentScreams]

Hair is one thing I probably don't have to worry about. Everyone in my family still has a full head of hair, right up to my 83 year old grandad. Hell, his hair is still probably half black half grey.
My dad has only just started getting a few flecks of grey in his shoulder length hair at 54 years old.

[Hawkzombie]

Hair is one thing I probably don't have to worry about. Everyone in my family still has a full head of hair, right up to my 83 year old grandad. Hell, his hair is still probably half black half grey.
My dad has only just started getting a few flecks of grey in his shoulder length hair at 54 years old.

http://profile.ak.fbcdn.net/object3/297/72/n40083099075_5889.jpg

[Zero]

I've started graying slightly on the temples. I'm 26. It actually makes me feel closer to my dad's side of the family as they also started graying early. I want Hal Jordan temples dammit.

[Doogie2K]

Unbelievable how pissy some people can get over something like that eh? I've had someone tell me they were annoyed with me because I didn't talk to them much on facebook. At the time I was their roomate.

Needless to say I just ignored them.

My favourite is when my cousin and her friends text each other...from within the same vehicle. Like, right beside each other.

[Hawkzombie]

They were talking about you.

Awwwwwwkward

[paketep]

The trolls win?. We all won, this was absolutely idiotic.

Now, since Blizzard is saying that they listen to the community (yeah, sure), how about LAN support?

[SilentScreams]

Blizzard listen to the community too much. That's why after all this time WoW still isn't balanced.

[Narradisall]

Ah gamers. Give us an inch, and we'll want the mile, plus your car keys to get there.

[Vigil80]

Psh, that's normal! Hollywood taught me that. If a hot, popular cheerleader doesn't have a major reformation just in time for graduation, her life is basically over and she'll end up married to some dickwad.
I know you were trying to be wry, but truth is stranger than fiction. :p Or in other words, it's cliché because it's true.

[MagGnome]

Ah gamers. Give us an inch, and we'll want the mile, plus your car keys to get there.

You're right, LAN support is an awful lot to ask for. :p

[Goronmon]

Blizzard listen to the community too much. That's why after all this time WoW still isn't balanced.
I'm not sure Blizzard's goal is ever to balance WoW. By shifting the balance around on a regular basis, it keeps the game from getting stale from the standpoint of "This is the best class/build." since it only lasts a few months until Blizzard "balances" things in favor of a different class/build.

[SilentScreams]

I'm not sure Blizzard's goal is ever to balance WoW. By shifting the balance around on a regular basis, it keeps the game from getting stale from the standpoint of "This is the best class/build." since it only lasts a few months until Blizzard "balances" things in favor of a different class/build.

Maybe.
I've always thought WoWs main problem is that they are trying to balance PvP and PvE within the same set of calculations when they are two completely different games.

[J Arcane]

Maybe.
I've always thought WoWs main problem is that they are trying to balance PvP and PvE within the same set of calculations when they are two completely different games.
Indeed.

A lesson they should have learned from the D&D they so liberally ripped off.

[Narradisall]

You're right, LAN support is an awful lot to ask for. :p

We're getting cross region back, what more do you want! :p

My point was, when developers actually DO listen and make changes, we tend to bitch about the changes they haven't made, since, you know, we're entitled to everything we demand in a game. ;)