WTF Star Wars games?

[Caped Crusader]

Ok. So, this is a gripe I have had for years, and one many others have heard me bitch about. It is actually sort of an unfair request on my part as far as gameplay goes, but if I am a lightsaber wielding character and I hit an enemy with that lightsaber, that should be it. Done deal. I should not have to hit an enemy multiple times with a lightsaber until their health bar or HP is gone. It should be either an instant kill or at the very least an instant dismemberment. I realize that has potential to make the player too powerful (maybe) but if the player has a lightsaber, then he's probably a f**king Jedi, in which case, yeah. He is really powerful.
I understand why Star Wars games are not realistic (I am using that word VERY loosely) in that regard. Especially in an rpg such as KOTOR where it is all about stats and hit points. But I lust for a Star Wars game where when I face an enemy equipped with a lightsaber, I need to be on my game casue if I do not block correctly, that is my ass. Same goes for him.
Superman's Dead keeps telling me about a game called Jedi Academy where this is basically the case. I am not familiar with it, but I wish that was the standard.
Is this a reasonable request at this point in gaming? Am I insane?

[Jason]

Wouldn't that take away some of the challenge? But yeah, if you're a jedi and have a lightsaber, you should be more powerful than every other human based enemy that is not a jedi. In The Force Unleashed, I think it only required 1 or 2 hits to kill most of the rebels or stormtroopers.

[digitalErich]

This is exactly why the Jedi Academy games were so great on the PC. You could mess with two settings in the console and after lightsabers were one hit kills and always loped of body parts if they were struck. The best part was that it worked on the player, too. It made those 2 v 1 saber fights really tense and really fun.

[Caped Crusader]

This is exactly why the Jedi Academy games were so great on the PC. You could mess with two settings in the console and after lightsabers were one hit kills and always loped of body parts if they were struck. The best part was that it worked on the player, too. It made those 2 v 1 saber fights really tense and really fun.

Is Jedi Academy first or third person?

[Lekon]

Is Jedi Academy first or third person?

Third when you have a saber out. First person otherwise. Why you would use any weapon but the saber.. I have no idea.

[Caped Crusader]

Third when you have a saber out. First person otherwise. Why you would use any weapon but the saber.. I have no idea.

Agreed. Seriously. That makes no sense at all.

[CES]

Third when you have a saber out. First person otherwise. Why you would use any weapon but the saber.. I have no idea.

Sniping those pissant enemy snipers with their annoying cheap kills.

Really though, Jedi Academy was not made great by the lightsabers, it was made great by the force powers you could use to fuck over everyone. Guy pulls a lightsaber on you? Launch his sorry self off the cliffside or use Force Grip to throw him off if you want a more personal kill.

[Narradisall]

I've had that exact point too.

Thats why Jedi Academy was great though. I always had the dismemberment on, and learned to duel properly on that game, so one hit, one kill, including if I got hit.

That game was so awesome though that you could actually play it in a way that allowed you to block strikes and leap over attacks.

Nothing was more awesome than a guy with a single, heavy stance lightsaber side swinging at you and pulling off a perfect saber staff spin over the blade and cutting him in half.

[Caped Crusader]

I've had that exact point too.

Thats why Jedi Academy was great though. I always had the dismemberment on, and learned to duel properly on that game, so one hit, one kill, including if I got hit.

That game was so awesome though that you could actually play it in a way that allowed you to block strikes and leap over attacks.

Nothing was more awesome than a guy with a single, heavy stance lightsaber side swinging at you and pulling off a perfect saber staff spin over the blade and cutting him in half.

That sounds like exactly what i am looking for. I need to play this. I am not even a huge Star Wars fan, but I feel like this should all be common sense when it comes to a game w/lightsabers. Was it only on pc?

[BigJonno]

We need more RPGs with combat mechanics that are equal to action games. Who wouldn't want to play a game that was basically KotOR with the gameplay of Jedi Academy? Fools and douchebags, that's who.

[Widgetcraft]

While I love Jedi Academy, most people prefer it's predecessor, Jedi Outcast. Then of course, there was it's predecessor: Jedi Knight (they're all part of the Jedi Knight series) and it's expansion. But yes, those games were by far the best Star Wars games out there, with the only competition being the X-wing and Tie-Fighter games.

Fuck KOTOR, fuck The Force Unleashed, fuck anything that isn't a Jedi Knight or flight sim game.

[Spectre-7]

We need more RPGs with combat mechanics that are equal to action games. Who wouldn't want to play a game that was basically KotOR with the gameplay of Jedi Academy? Fools and douchebags, that's who.

Sir, I am a fool and a douchebag, and even I would like to play that.

While I love Jedi Academy, most people prefer it's predecessor, Jedi Outcast. Then of course, there was it's predecessor: Jedi Knight (they're all part of the Jedi Knight series) and it's expansion. But yes, those games were by far the best Star Wars games out there, with the only combination being the X-wing and Tie-Fighter games.

Its. Usually I wouldn't say anything, but you've got three in a row, with one bolded.

[Caped Crusader]

Wouldn't that take away some of the challenge? But yeah, if you're a jedi and have a lightsaber, you should be more powerful than every other human based enemy that is not a jedi. In The Force Unleashed, I think it only required 1 or 2 hits to kill most of the rebels or stormtroopers.
That game was not w/o its charms and good qualities, but it was immensely repetitive. And yes, the grunts were easily dispatched, but that is not the point I am making. I know I am being geeky and far too specific, but one of the appeals of playing a game based on a franchise with characters that have abilities far beyond that of normal people is being put in those characters shoes. We see or read about these characters doing this amazing stuff in a movie or comic or whatever and we think "Man it would be cool to be able to do that." So as a gamer, when you tell me I get to be a Jedi, I get excited and certain expectations manifest. TFU did not live up to those expectations, however unfair they may seem. The force stuff was great, and that was really what the game was about. I mean, the title says it all. So I realize it wasn't marketed as the end all lightsaber game. But I can't help but be disappointed.

Did anyone play the Wolverine Movie game? It's like that. It wasn't the best thing ever, but it was fun (as was TFU). Still though, I was fucking Wolverine and mofo's were blocking. Successfully. Fucking adamantium claws yo! You don't block that shit! At least give me some justification. At least make up a reason my lightsaber doesn't work against this guy.
Sorry for ranting.

[Vandabo]

Jedi Outcast had great lightsaber gameplay before a patch that essentially made it a random spamfest. Originally it was like a faceoff in an Akira Korusawa film... Two guys enter the arena, there are maybe one or two vicious exchanges and someone was dead.
The different stances made a huge difference, each with it's own use and techniques.
Getting on a good multiplayer duel server was awesome, people would bow to each other before they started fighting, and everybody in the queue got to watch the match and comment on it. It was so great.

I never found that much enjoyment in multiplayer with Academy, but the single player was great.

[Jason]

While I love Jedi Academy, most people prefer it's predecessor, Jedi Outcast. Then of course, there was it's predecessor: Jedi Knight (they're all part of the Jedi Knight series) and it's expansion. But yes, those games were by far the best Star Wars games out there, with the only combination being the X-wing and Tie-Fighter games.

Fuck KOTOR, fuck The Force Unleashed, fuck anything that isn't a Jedi Knight or flight sim game.

While I love KOTOR and like The Force Unleashed, I would really love to have another entry in the Jedi Knight series. Heretic is right, they were and still are the best Star Wars games.

That game was not w/o its charms and good qualities, but it was immensely repetitive. And yes, the grunts were easily dispatched, but that is not the point I am making. I know I am being geeky and far too specific, but one of the appeals of playing a game based on a franchise with characters that have abilities far beyond that of normal people is being put in those characters shoes. We see or read about these characters doing this amazing stuff in a movie or comic or whatever and we think "Man it would be cool to be able to do that." So as a gamer, when you tell me I get to be a Jedi, I get excited and certain expectations manifest. TFU did not live up to those expectations, however unfair they may seem. The force stuff was great, and that was really what the game was about. I mean, the title says it all. So I realize it wasn't marketed as the end all lightsaber game. But I can't help but be disappointed.

Did anyone play the Wolverine Movie game? It's like that. It wasn't the best thing ever, but it was fun (as was TFU). Still though, I was fucking Wolverine and mofo's were blocking. Successfully. Fucking adamantium claws yo! You don't block that shit! At least give me some justification. At least make up a reason my lightsaber doesn't work against this guy.
Sorry for ranting.

I see what you're saying. I think they used cortosis ore or some such thing as the excuse in the KOTOR games as to why a lightsaber could be blocked/ not go through everything.

[Widgetcraft]

Its. Usually I wouldn't say anything, but you've got three in a row, with one bolded.

Not my fault English is a stupid ass language. Everything else uses an apostrophe followed by an S to convey a possessive nature. As far as I'm concerned, the language needs to be corrected, not me. In other words: The it's/its situation is it's problem, not mine.

[Spectre-7]

Not my fault English is a stupid ass language. Everything else uses an apostrophe followed by an S to convey a possessive nature. As far as I'm concerned, the language needs to be corrected, not me. In other words: The it's/its situation is it's problem, not mine.

Fair enough. I didn't say it was logical or made sense... English so rarely does.

[Spectre-7]

Oh yeah, on topic... I've played through Jedi Knight 2: Jedi Outcast and Jedi Academy a few times each, including quite a bit of online multiplayer, and I honestly think the lightsaber play sucks. Maybe I just always sucked at it, but it never felt more controlled than... well, than this:

HPPj6viIBmU

And frankly, the best matches I watched didn't seem much better. Sure, there was some jumping off walls, and a fancy pirouette here or there, but when it came down to it, they still looked like two idiots stumbling around and flailing at each other until someone died.

Why do I still play through them once a year? Because the force powers are that much fun. I perfected a style of quickly Force Choking + Force Pushing that efficiently eliminated about 90% of my enemies. The force may have set them up, but it was gravity killed the beast.

I've been meaning to write up my Adventures of a Jedi Asshole, detailing my exploits throwing empirial forces off of buildings, but I never seem to get around to it. Maybe I'll do it this summer if I decide to play through Academy again.

[inmostlight]

Did anyone play the Wolverine Movie game? It's like that. It wasn't the best thing ever, but it was fun (as was TFU). Still though, I was fucking Wolverine and mofo's were blocking. Successfully. Fucking adamantium claws yo! You don't block that shit! At least give me some justification. At least make up a reason my lightsaber doesn't work against this guy.
Sorry for ranting.

No problem, it's a rant I have often. There are so many games out there with characters who have huge blades or lightsabers or whatever, but the game basically treats them as wiffle bats.

A bit of a digression, but one of the few times I really felt true power in games was The Darkness. So many other games deal out new weapons and upgrades, but also scale up all the enemies so that I don't actually feel more powerful. (God of War does this, for instance, where every ability Kratos gains just means the enemies get tougher.) But in the Darkness, man. By the final level I was just cutting through dudes like butter and I felt like the actual demon I was playing. The game wasn't necessarily easier, and was all the better because that feeling of immense power is so rare in games.

[Caped Crusader]

No problem, it's a rant I have often. There are so many games out there with characters who have huge blades or lightsabers or whatever, but the game basically treats them as wiffle bats.

A bit of a digression, but one of the few times I really felt true power in games was The Darkness. So many other games deal out new weapons and upgrades, but also scale up all the enemies so that I don't actually feel more powerful. (God of War does this, for instance, where every ability Kratos gains just means the enemies get tougher.) But in the Darkness, man. By the final level I was just cutting through dudes like butter and I felt like the actual demon I was playing. The game wasn't necessarily easier, and was all the better because that feeling of immense power is so rare in games.

You know what what was good at that? Advent Rising. It was on original Xbox and was supposed to be a trilogy, but the game flopped and Majesco (I think) went bankrupt. It is an immensely unpopular title, but it is one of me and Superman's Dead's all time favs.
Rather than follow the (especially then) tired formula where the player starts out with like a rock and a stick and by the end has access to rocket launchers and lasers, the player had access to all the weapons ftmp right off the bat. And they all had primary fire and secondary fire, like in Resistance.
Anyway, by the time the game came to a close, your character was so evolved that you no longer needed weapons.
Another thing I loved was you could do everything you saw the character do in the cinematic cutscenes. They never did that thing a lot of games do where during break in gameplay the guy you were just controlling pulls off a an amazing feat that no series of button presses would allow you to accomplish.
I never beat The Darkness, but I do remember feeling like a serious threat to my enemies.

[Narradisall]

I LOVED the Multiplayer on Outcast and Academy.

I doubt it will be good now, but the matchs where you had say 8 people, with 2 playing and 6 watching. Where when one guy killed the other, he was replaced with the next guy in line were great. One good player could keep in the game for ages, and you could watch all the fun.

I esp liked the map that was the power core bit where Maul and Obi-Wan faced off (the final bit with the energy beams and the giant hole maul falls down).

I recall having a really good fight there where the guy completely outclassed me, I just backflipped a saber swipe and leaped backwards over the giant hole to the tiny bit at the side, he leap over after me, and I force pushed him mid air.... right into the pit.

He butchered me later though, hah. i miss the MP on that, but I bet its quiet these days.

Also, the mods that added Jawa's where a bitch, they were too small for you to side cut!

[Widgetcraft]

I LOVED the Multiplayer on Outcast and Academy.

I doubt it will be good now, but the matchs where you had say 8 people, with 2 playing and 6 watching. Where when one guy killed the other, he was replaced with the next guy in line were great. One good player could keep in the game for ages, and you could watch all the fun.

Yep, it's still like that. Mods on pubs there are pretty immature though, from what I've experienced. As for what was said above about there being no control: It plays like a fighting game. You have to know when to strike, and with what move, depending on your sabers, and the sabers that your opponent is using. It's not just random button mashing.

[RandoM51]

The same scientists who came up with the lightsaber came up with micro mesh reactive armor.

[Panthera]

I miss Jedi Knight's multiplayer and the Microsoft Gaming Zone. Live is a step back, as far as I'm concerned.

[Vigil80]

This is something that came up in at least one other discussion, specifically about the mechanics in the upcoming SW: TOR.

In their attempts to excite players by bringing lightsaber combat to the forefront, developers have made lightsabers boring by "balancing" them in the content.

[National Kato]

God, I miss the Jedi Knight series of games. The lightsaber duels, whether against one or more foes, were better than anything before or since, including the films.

[Caped Crusader]

There was a cinematic trailer for SW: TOR that had some amazingly cool lightsaber action, among other eye popping awesomeness. Obviously none of it was gameplay stuff, but the fight sequences were by far cooler than anything done in the movies.
Same can be said of that Wolverine game I mentioned earlier. In the first 5 minutes of that game, Wolverine goes all sickhouse on everyone's asses and does a ton of shit way cooler than anything in that excuse for a movie.
These franchises should consult these video game people when making their movies.

[Hotcod]

Gorge should just hand over the film rights to the old republic to bioware, hell he should have given them the prequel rights.

[ClannerDelta]

Gorge should just hand over the film rights to the old republic to bioware, hell he should have given them the prequel rights.

I believe the cinematic was done by Blur, they seem to have done the Wolverine cinematic as well.

Though I find it hard to get any real information about who was involved with the SWTOR cinematic. My google fu fails me.

[Hotcod]

Oh I didn't think bioware put the thing together them selfs but the story premise and so on is all there's i presume and they understand how to deal with prime time line starwars better than lucus does.

Still if there's a company that is involved in the actual making of it they hire them to be directors :D

[JayK47]

Star Wars Nerds. Can't please them. I suppose you have to keep in mind that you are playing a game based on the Star Wars universe. You are not an actual Jedi. Bummer, I know. A game cannot, or at least not yet (Kinect will change everything;)), transform a gamer into a seasoned Jedi, soldier, and so on. Games have to take certain liberties to make them work and to keep them enjoyable. I am traditionally a PC gamer, and games like ARMA, which try to be a simulator, can take the fun out of gaming (with a button for every little stupid damn thing). I guess what I am saying, is that I think KOTOR is fucking awesome, and a 100% accurate Star Wars game will sound like more fun that it actually will be. Unless you think reloading saves is time well spent.

I will agree that Star Wars games as of late have pretty much blown ass. KOTOR and Jedi Academy are the last two decent ones I can remember and some people may now call them classics. So we are due for a decent Star Wars game. I just don't agree that "realism" will make a fun game. This is coming from a guy who spent a ton of time playing a "realistic" military shooter. It really is a niche, and doomed to fail.

[Caped Crusader]

Star Wars Nerds. Can't please them. I suppose you have to keep in mind that you are playing a game based on the Star Wars universe. You are not an actual Jedi. Bummer, I know. A game cannot, or at least not yet (Kinect will change everything;)), transform a gamer into a seasoned Jedi, soldier, and so on. Games have to take certain liberties to make them work and to keep them enjoyable. I am traditionally a PC gamer, and games like ARMA, which try to be a simulator, can take the fun out of gaming (with a button for every little stupid damn thing). I guess what I am saying, is that I think KOTOR is fucking awesome, and a 100% accurate Star Wars game will sound like more fun that it actually will be. Unless you think reloading saves is time well spent.

I will agree that Star Wars games as of late have pretty much blown ass. KOTOR and Jedi Academy are the last two decent ones I can remember and some people may now call them classics. So we are due for a decent Star Wars game. I just don't agree that "realism" will make a fun game. This is coming from a guy who spent a ton of time playing a "realistic" military shooter. It really is a niche, and doomed to fail.

So you are comparing a realistic military shooter to a (hypothetical) realistic game about space wizards from the past who can shoot lightning from their fingertips and sense danger and turmoil from a connected web of universe mojo.
Yeah. I totally see what you mean.
If they made a game about people shooting each other more realistic (when you get shot, you die)and that was no fun, then making a game about laser sword fights and magic powers more realistic (when you hit someone with your badass death stick of light, they die) would be totally lame.
Perhaps I am coming off like a whiny fanboy, but truth be told, my geekdom lies elsewhere. I am not a huge Star Wars fan at all. I am not invested in the cannon.
I am however delusional and had no idea I wasn't actually a Jedi when I played the game. Thank you for explaining that to me.
I have already acknowledged in previous posts that perhaps my request to have my in-game lightsaber actually cut through things was an unfair one, but apparently it was a reality in Jedi Academy, which you and all these other colonists agree is one of the best Star Wars games to date. All I am saying is bring that back.

[J Arcane]

We need more RPGs with combat mechanics that are equal to action games. Who wouldn't want to play a game that was basically KotOR with the gameplay of Jedi Academy? Fools and douchebags, that's who.

This is the problem with game designers relentless ignorance of tabletop RPGs.

There are a host of games out there you could use as inspiration that would offer exactly that, but instead what does fucking everyone do? Remake goddamn D&D. Again and again and again. The Japanese do it, the West does it, even when they're making game based on other non-D&D games, they wind up ram-rodding the mechanics into a D&D mold.

Goddamnit people, we even have the original, and still the best, Star Wars RPG system in open fucking source, and it does exactly what you describe. Jedi in WEG Star Wars were not to be fucking trifled with. The wound level system made combat nasty without being unfun.

But you know what? Even if you somehow got one of them to actually use it, they'd fuck it up anyway by grafting on levels and hitpoints and stripping the combat and everything else of any originality or potential.

It's fucking criminal.

This is something that came up in at least one other discussion, specifically about the mechanics in the upcoming SW: TOR.

In their attempts to excite players by bringing lightsaber combat to the forefront, developers have made lightsabers boring by "balancing" them in the content.

Man, have you seen the gameplay trailers for TOR? They are some of the worst shit I have ever seen, even for an MMO. Awkward, slow, clunky, choppy, just bad, STO bad.

All my interest in that game basically plummeted the moment I actually saw it in play. It's unbelievable. About as unbelievable as the Kamehameha ending to that last cinematic trailer.

[Caped Crusader]

The thing about cinematic trailers is the cooler they are, the crappier you feel once gameplay starts again. Especially w/a game like TOR. Both cinematics are gorgeous and action packed. I don't play enough MMO's to judge what I have seen of the gameplay, but I can assure you it won't be nearly as aesthetically appealing as the marketing is.

[BigJonno]

This is the problem with game designers relentless ignorance of tabletop RPGs.

There are a host of games out there you could use as inspiration that would offer exactly that, but instead what does fucking everyone do? Remake goddamn D&D. Again and again and again. The Japanese do it, the West does it, even when they're making game based on other non-D&D games, they wind up ram-rodding the mechanics into a D&D mold.

Goddamnit people, we even have the original, and still the best, Star Wars RPG system in open fucking source, and it does exactly what you describe. Jedi in WEG Star Wars were not to be fucking trifled with. The wound level system made combat nasty without being unfun.

But you know what? Even if you somehow got one of them to actually use it, they'd fuck it up anyway by grafting on levels and hitpoints and stripping the combat and everything else of any originality or potential.

It's fucking criminal.

Damn, I've not played WEG Star Wars in yonks. If I remember the system correctly, they balanced Jedi well by making Force powers such an investment that Jedi characters were invariably shit at everything else.