Scott Kurtz on Marvel digital comics

[BigJonno]

Here's the link. (http://www.pvponline.com/2010/06/08/q-what-do-retailers-think-of-iron-man-annual-digital/)

Basically, Marvel are releasing a digital version of Invincible Iron Man Annual on the same day as the print version, but they're hacking it into three parts and selling each part for the same price as the full print copy. You're paying for a third of a comic book, but an actual third, not a Starcraft third.

I wish this made sense to me. The only reason to price the digital copy at 6 dollars is to keep retailers happy. It’s not in service of Marvel readers and it’s certainly not in service of expanding Marvel’s audience. I have a lot of friends discovering Marvel comics for the first time through the iPad app. Paying for 1/3 of a comic for the same price they normally pay for a whole comic is not something they’ll appreciate or understand. I get Marvel’s desire to make a move like this without spooking retailers or Diamond. It’s like a scuba-diver pacing his rise to the surface to avoid getting the bends. But what does Marvel risk by scaring off potential new digital customers by pricing a virtual copy of a comic higher than the physical copy you get to keep? And for what? To keep retailers happy?

He goes onto say that it's Marvel's job to distribute their comics as widely as possible in order to serve the best interests of their readers, creators and stockholders, even if it's to the detriment of brick and mortar stores.

Thoughts?

[muddi900]

Scott Kurtz is very talented, but likes to talk out of his ass. The reason I can't enjoy his work anymore. What he clearly lacks is a perspective on business and how demand works.

Also, Jonno, each part is 2 bucks, which is half that of a regular print version.

[Hawkzombie]

Scott Kurtz is very talented, but likes to talk out of his ass. The reason I can't enjoy his work anymore. What he clearly lacks is a perspective on business and how demand works.

Also, Jonno, each part is 2 bucks, which is half that of a regular print version.

Since when has a digital version of anything been more expensive than a physical copy?

3 bucks for comic

6 bucks for digital.

I'm with Kurtz to a degree. It's up to comic companies to try and reach as many new customers as possible. However, I wouldn't do it as a detriment to actual stores. Most stores, though, know how to entice new people as well, (one near me, Happy Harbor, sponsors the 24hr comic challenge as well as several benefits for local charities).

Still, I don't see the business sense in this. Maybe it's to make people want to go out and buy it? But if they can't get it normally, or miss it, it's sort of punishing them for going digital?

It makes no sense to me, honestly.

[AgtFox]

Scott Kurtz is very talented, but likes to talk out of his ass. The reason I can't enjoy his work anymore. What he clearly lacks is a perspective on business and how demand works.

Also, Jonno, each part is 2 bucks, which is half that of a regular print version.
I think that's about to change now that Kurtz has moved to Seattle and into Penny Arcade HQ. I'm going to guess Robert Khoo will get ahold of him and do the business side of things. It worked wonders for PA, I'm sure it can do the same for Kurtz.

So, the digital version of the annual will be $6 online? First I've heard, where was the price announced? The actual print version is $4.99 (just looked it up). I still say $1 more is too expensive and should either be the same or less than the print version. Then again, people are paying $500 for the lowest iPad version, so maybe premium stuff like this isn't out of the question.

[AgtFox]

Nevermind, I found it in the Cup 'O Joe interview over at CBR. I still don't think it is a good idea, but like I said people seem to have no problem paying a premium to get things.

[Wolvie]

Wow, bad idea. The price of the digital copy should add up to the same price as the print copy. Marvel shot their sales in the foot before they even got out of the gate.

[Superman's Dead]

I dunno, I think AgtFox has a really good point.

If it's only one dollar more, they're finding their target market. People with iPads (or whatever) that aren't the type to go down to their local comics shop. Make a profit while you can, try and hook them, if it doesn't work, meh, least you made some money.

[johnperkins21]

I dunno, I think AgtFox has a really good point.

If it's only one dollar more, they're finding their target market. People with iPads (or whatever) that aren't the type to go down to their local comics shop. Make a profit while you can, try and hook them, if it doesn't work, meh, least you made some money.

Agreed. iPad owners, by definition, are uninterested in getting value for their money.

[Wolvie]

Well aside from the "I'll buy it no matter what it costs!" types, I don't think people will be very attracted to this. Sure Marvel will make some money, but I think they are limiting how much they could make. Perhaps once the idea catches on they will lower the price. But I think they should lower it now and get those penny pinchers in now.

Kinda like the Wii, make it cheap and they will buy it.

[AntonThaGreat]

A big fat LOL at that decision. I will not pay more than 3-4 for a comic. Especially when, for some contrived reason, a digital copy costs twice as much as a physical copy.

I didn't get into comics, because quite simply they weren't accessible to me. There was a comic book store next to my school, but it had a really crappy selection. The only good comic book store, was at least a 45 minute walk from my house and I just wasn't willing to make that trek when there were other more accessible things I had to at my disposal.

I downloaded the whole Deadpool library and went through it rather quickly because I shoved it onto my PSP and read it easily while commuting to work.

What about ease, accessibility and prices do these aging media (print, music, movies) executives not understand? It's ludicrous.

For example: I don't pirate the shows I can access easily on Hulu. And yes, when Hulu rolls out their paid platform, I will most likely subscribe as long as the price is reasonable and they really do offer a complete backlog for the shows that I want to watch. Further, I will cancel my cable subscription as soon as I can get Discovery and National Geographic channels on there too. After using Pandora for probably 5 years now, I am a paid subscriber. It's a valuable service to me and I want to support them.

/end rant

[muddi900]

But do you own an ipad Anton? Would you buy one because Marvel is doing day and date releases? Do you wait every wednesday for new comics, either pirated or in the comic store?

That is the whole issue with (legal) digital comics; who is the target audience? How do you market them? A lot of the people are not reading in issues at all, will they buy digital if it was cheaper?? Then why arent they subacribing to Marvel's own digital comics subscription? Sure, they are late, but trade readers dont care.

Then there is the cost; Digitizing comics, especially for idevices, is not free. All those wooshy wooshy effects cost money. And apple takes a cut. People need to factor that. There's a reason DC is playing the second mover game.

And finally, companies think you should pay for the convenience that Anton touted. Of course, it is just as convenient to order Deadpool trades from instocktrades or amazon. Not that I am judging, or have a right to!

Now Scott Kurtz is a guy who works in a 100 year old format, who's he to even talk about the future of anything? It seems to me that he just wants the novelty of "Look ma I am reading Iron Man on my $500 tech hipster toy! ITS THE FUTURE!". Like the people who watch movies on their iphone.

BTW, IDW are thinking about day and date digital releases for almost all of their comics...on the PSP. how many of you are going to buy them on there? I recommend Locke & Key and GI Joe: Cobra (aka GI Joe: "say this 24 thing is kinda popular")

[Ink Asylum]

If video game companies tried selling the digital versions for 20-50% more than boxed store copies we'd all be crying bloody murder. I don't see how this is any different. Digital should cost the same or less than physical copies. I highly doubt that the cost of the digital version, even including Apple's cut, is higher than printing and shipping a paper comic book, since comic retailers take a cut just like Apple does.

[LongStepMantis]

Now Scott Kurtz is a guy who works in a 100 year old format, who's he to even talk about the future of anything?

This part really threw me off. Since he's by far primarily a webcomic artist, how is it even possible that he's working in a 100 year-old format? Are you referring to the fact that he allows his comic to be paper syndicated for free? Or simply that he uses comic strip format? Comic book format itself is only about 20 years younger than that (in popular usage, not conception).

I'm just confused.

[AgtFox]

Then there is the cost; Digitizing comics, especially for idevices, is not free. All those wooshy wooshy effects cost money. And apple takes a cut. People need to factor that. There's a reason DC is playing the second mover game.
Although digitizing comics isn't free as you say (neither is making the retail copy versions), almost all comics today are done via electronic means and are then printed on paper from there. Gone for the most part are pen and paper drawing/inking (except at cons and other public appearances obviously), most of it is done via tablets and the like.

Comics are very digital in how they are made today (I'm sure there are some that use pen and paper still, but I think it has largely moved to a tablet/computer model), they are just sold in paper format. I don't think it costs very much to transfer the most likely digitized final into a format an iPad or even a color eBook reader of the future could use. Heck, magazines/newspapers are already doing it (or in the process of it)...how much of a jump is it for comics to do the same?

[johnperkins21]

Then there is the cost; Digitizing comics, especially for idevices, is not free. All those wooshy wooshy effects cost money. And apple takes a cut. People need to factor that. There's a reason DC is playing the second mover game.

It's far less expensive than physical copies. Once you've created one, a million more can be copied and distributed for very little money. The cost of printing a million copies, and then physically distributing them across the country, or globally, is astronomically higher. Cost is not an argument for making digital copies more expensive, it is an argument for making them half the price.

[Hawkzombie]

It's far less expensive than physical copies. Once you've created one, a million more can be copied and distributed for very little money. The cost of printing a million copies, and then physically distributing them across the country, or globally, is astronomically higher. Cost is not an argument for making digital copies more expensive, it is an argument for making them half the price.

This. A thousand times this.

The digital comics with all their 'flair' take very little effort to take something already in a digital environment (The comic images that are to be sent off to printers) and just put them in the right spot. Would take me all of 5-10 minutes and I bet it's a rather easy process on their end. Then the copies made don't cost a cent beyond bandwidth, which is still nothing close to even bulk printing costs.

[Widgetcraft]

That's fine, keep refusing to embrace digital distribution of your comics while the number of comic book shops shrink, gaming shops stop stocking your product, and pirates become more and more organized in distributing your comics in a format that is vastly superior to anything you've released. You're so smart Marvel.

At this point, I'm not really sure that I will mourn them when they inevitably go out of business for good, or celebrate that day. I should probably decide soon.

[muddi900]

Although digitizing comics isn't free as you say (neither is making the retail copy versions), almost all comics today are done via electronic means and are then printed on paper from there. Gone for the most part are pen and paper drawing/inking (except at cons and other public appearances obviously), most of it is done via tablets and the like.

Comics are very digital in how they are made today (I'm sure there are some that use pen and paper still, but I think it has largely moved to a tablet/computer model), they are just sold in paper format. I don't think it costs very much to transfer the most likely digitized final into a format an iPad or even a color eBook reader of the future could use. Heck, magazines/newspapers are already doing it (or in the process of it)...how much of a jump is it for comics to do the same?

I was talking specifically of that format. Comixology has far more users on the iphone, who cannot read full sized pages, and can only do panel-by-panel. And no, Hawk, it is not done magically with a one click solution, one guy has to add them manually so that the flow of the story remains intact. That guy needs to be paid. If you disagree with me, there are high quality scans available of almost all major comics, which are in fact better than the legal option try editing them for the iphone. I nominate JHWIII's Detective Comic. As johnperkins pointed out, it costs a lot to produce print comics, but the fact is, from marvel's point of view, they still have to produce them, because there is still demand there. And if we discount distribution, the production cost of the comic just went up slightly. So in this situation when they start doing day-and-date releases, it costs them more before the comic has been sent to the printers, which increases operational costs as well.

Also, not all comics are done digitally now. Some are done on Woodcuts.
(http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=23292) :D

You might be asking "Why don't they just give me a CBZ/CBR/EPUB and be done with it?", well when there's a lot of money involved, people tend to act like idiots. But I would ask all of you; if you guys really care about money so much, why do you read comics in issues? Trades cost much cheaper. :p

This part really threw me off. Since he's by far primarily a webcomic artist, how is it even possible that he's working in a 100 year-old format? Are you referring to the fact that he allows his comic to be paper syndicated for free? Or simply that he uses comic strip format? Comic book format itself is only about 20 years younger than that (in popular usage, not conception).

I'm just confused.

I was referring to the 3-panel gag strip format. Yes comic books are just as old, but they have evolved so much in the past 50 years. You can do Blankets, Planetary, Watchmen and The life and times of Scrooge McDuck in the confines of a comic book. What can you do with the strip format? to the point, What has Kurtz done with?

Point being, when going on tirades about innovation, he clearly has never looked at his own body of work. I am not saying its bad, its quite good, but reading that whole post makes his ignorance of business matters very clear. Google around, you will find that similar tirades against the writer's strike and Kickstarter. The guy loves the sound of his own voice and/or clack of his keyboard.


I'll also make this clear that this is not a defense of Marvel's policy. I think the current way digital comics are being handled is complete horseshit, by everyone involved. But I do see their point of view. Fact is, Print industry is going through the same motions of the music industry, and will probably arrive at a similar point.

But magazines? Fuck magazines! this is 2010, who needs magazines!

[roboninja]

I'll also make this clear that this is not a defense of Marvel's policy.

So what was all that ranting above if you are not defending it? Was it simply Kurtz hatorade? You confuse me yet again, muddi.

[Cactaur]

Muddi: Return of the Dapper Men is not a woodcut print.

3 panel and the Japanese 4 panel gag has a particular elegance in delivery. End of the day isn't it about telling a story rather than trying to be a genre buster?

At any rate Kurtz decided to try and give his characters growth. Fair enough but the story sucked and I got bored and stopped reading.

[KSmitty]

But do you own an ipad Anton? Would you buy one because Marvel is doing day and date releases? Do you wait every wednesday for new comics, either pirated or in the comic store?

That is the whole issue with (legal) digital comics; who is the target audience? How do you market them? A lot of the people are not reading in issues at all, will they buy digital if it was cheaper?? Then why arent they subacribing to Marvel's own digital comics subscription? Sure, they are late, but trade readers dont care.

I would guess that the market for digital comics is the same as the market for digital books. People who previously consumed the physical media that now want to switch to the digital format. The best format would obviously be a color reader, how many of those are there besides the ipad? (I really don't know)

Then there is the cost; Digitizing comics, especially for idevices, is not free. All those wooshy wooshy effects cost money. And apple takes a cut. People need to factor that. There's a reason DC is playing the second mover game.

Then I would say don't add those special effects. E-books don't feel the need to jazz up their onomatopoeia why should digital comics? That cuts down a cost there easily. And once a comic is digitized its done and can be distributed more or less infintetly. That cannot be said for physical media.

And finally, companies think you should pay for the convenience that Anton touted. Of course, it is just as convenient to order Deadpool trades from instocktrades or amazon. Not that I am judging, or have a right to!

And I believe that I should save money on: -cost of paper, -cost of ink, -cost of shipping, -cost of binding, etc. The digital version should always be cheaper than the physical copy. The 'convenience' of direct download is not worth the same price as a physical copy. Especially when so many online retailers offer free shipping.

BTW, IDW are thinking about day and date digital releases for almost all of their comics...on the PSP. how many of you are going to buy them on there? I recommend Locke & Key and GI Joe: Cobra (aka GI Joe: "say this 24 thing is kinda popular")

I don't plan on ever buying a digital comic until I am forced to buy digital comics to continue reading the series/writers that I follow. I feel the same way about books.

[muddi900]

You confuse me yet again, muddi.

OK, for the lastjust because I like Glee doesn't mean I swing that way man!:D

Also, I don't know which uncivilized backwater you from,son, but where I come from, we take our Hatin' seriously. Haterade 4eva!

But, yeah, I was unknowingly playing devil's advocate. So it is a defense of the horseshit Marvel's pulling.

Muddi: Return of the Dapper Men is not a woodcut print.


http://revision3.com/ifanboy/c2e22010parttwo

Just scroll click on the Jim McCann section. Its not truly woodcuts but it is something similar. I was just being facetious with that statement though.

I would guess that the market for digital comics is the same as the market for digital books. People who previously consumed the physical media that now want to switch to the digital format. The best format would obviously be a color reader, how many of those are there besides the ipad? (I really don't know).

Erm...
JZTV71FIrwg

For your other point; I have already pointed out the iphone to ipad disparity. there just shy of 40 million iphones in the world, compared to 2 million or so ipads. Which platform would you support? As long as there is an exponential difference between both devices, the wooshy wooshy effects will be necessary.

EDIT: I would also like to point out that of the users who are screaming for digital comics in this very thread, I assume none own ipads. So there's your target audience argument smitty.

[Deadend]

I like digital comics, they should let us have nice big back catalogs without needing longboxes that are annoying to go through, or waiting for TPBs.

I don't like that the Iron Man comic is $6 total, but apparently the claim is that all their digital stuff is $2 and it must be in increments of $2, which is kind of lame.

I would love to see a high quality comic reading app that supports purchasing of comics digitally, and has a nice library feature, with comics being sortable by series, or by storyarcs (for crossovers) by date, creators, or even by what characters are in it (so I can see every comic I have with Wolverine in it.) and I'd like for extra features like being able to see the pencils, or just the rough inks (for comics that do ink THEN colors) and possibly toggle off word bubbles (for those that insert them later) and the ability to have creator commentary overlays, and maybe even have community annotations on pages.

There is a shitload that can be done with digital comics, more than just reading them on Apple's overpriced consumerism device.

[johnperkins21]

I like digital comics, they should let us have nice big back catalogs without needing longboxes that are annoying to go through, or waiting for TPBs.

I don't like that the Iron Man comic is $6 total, but apparently the claim is that all their digital stuff is $2 and it must be in increments of $2, which is kind of lame.

I would love to see a high quality comic reading app that supports purchasing of comics digitally, and has a nice library feature, with comics being sortable by series, or by storyarcs (for crossovers) by date, creators, or even by what characters are in it (so I can see every comic I have with Wolverine in it.) and I'd like for extra features like being able to see the pencils, or just the rough inks (for comics that do ink THEN colors) and possibly toggle off word bubbles (for those that insert them later) and the ability to have creator commentary overlays, and maybe even have community annotations on pages.

There is a shitload that can be done with digital comics, more than just reading them on Apple's overpriced consumerism device.

These are some great ideas. And I would imagine that we might see stuff like this eventually. Like with DVD, it took a while before special features became somewhat standard. The first few had nothing on them, hell, I had a couple that I had to flip over. Once they start to see profitability, and one company starts to add extra features to the digital comics, you'll start to see consumers clamor for them, and be offered up.

[muddi900]

Well if seen w.r.t quantity 20 pages for 2 bucks => 60 pages for 6 buck.

[J Arcane]

I was referring to the 3-panel gag strip format. Yes comic books are just as old, but they have evolved so much in the past 50 years. You can do Blankets, Planetary, Watchmen and The life and times of Scrooge McDuck in the confines of a comic book. What can you do with the strip format? to the point, What has Kurtz done with?

Point being, when going on tirades about innovation, he clearly has never looked at his own body of work. I am not saying its bad, its quite good, but reading that whole post makes his ignorance of business matters very clear. Google around, you will find that similar tirades against the writer's strike and Kickstarter. The guy loves the sound of his own voice and/or clack of his keyboard.

You do realize Kurtz has done full issues as well, right?

[muddi900]

You do realize Kurtz has done full issues as well, right?

I always thought the PVP issues were reformatted strips. Regardless, I was not ragging on his work. The fact is, Marvel are the first one to even try day and date digital release, which is BIG step. While Scott Kurtz is making something that hasn't changed since the first world war.

As I said this is not the first time he has gone on this, his previous rant was something along the "Old comics suck because they are old! I want some new ones for this $500 toy I bought!". This new one also has nothing to do with his concerns about the medium and its future, but his need for novelty. Furthermore, his own comic book is also available on iverse, in both android and idevices, and guess what? they were not day and date releases.:)

[KSmitty]

Erm...
JZTV71FIrwg


Which is very nice, if you want to read your comics on your computer. I was speaking in terms of providing comics to the newer portable digital download devices. I would assume that those who enjoy comics on their computer have been doing so for quite some time (legally and/or illegally).

For your other point; I have already pointed out the iphone to ipad disparity. there just shy of 40 million iphones in the world, compared to 2 million or so ipads. Which platform would you support? As long as there is an exponential difference between both devices, the wooshy wooshy effects will be necessary.

EDIT: I would also like to point out that of the users who are screaming for digital comics in this very thread, I assume none own ipads. So there's your target audience argument smitty.

The users in this thread do own digital readers though. I honestly don't believe that comics should be on an iphone/ipod touch. Comics lend themselves to full-page or even centerfold spreads. Those will not be very well realized on tiny screen. A market of people that own full color e-readers, ipads etc. is there and can be capitalized upon. Its a market that I think will trend to casual and younger readers. We dinosaurs that know and love our long boxes like to keep our comics, but people that are not as committed or younger people who have zero issues with consuming digital media will have little issue picking up the new digital issue of The Avengers #168. Either way the best way to promote/encourage this new way of purchasing comics is NOT to charge more for the digital copy.

[BigJonno]

I always thought the PVP issues were reformatted strips. Regardless, I was not ragging on his work. The fact is, Marvel are the first one to even try day and date digital release, which is BIG step. While Scott Kurtz is making something that hasn't changed since the first world war.

Scott Kurtz makes his living writing and drawing a comic strip that is freely distributed on the internet. He was among the first to do that and is rightly considered a webcomic pioneer. He's not criticising the content or format of Marvel's comics, he's criticising their digital distribution model, so I have no idea why you're bringing up the format of his work. It's simply not relevant to the discussion. Your suggestion that Kurtz is somehow not in a position to comment about digitally distributed comics is utterly ridiculous.

[muddi900]

Your suggestion that Kurtz is somehow not in a position to comment about digitally distributed comics is utterly ridiculous.

Except the issues J Arcane talked about are available with the same distribution method(more or less). And if you read the whole post, which I know you have, then the last paragraph is all about 'innovation'. Being among the first makes him an innovator you say(and I agree)? Say, who's the first at this thing we're talking about?:)

If you can go and read his original rant, which was around the time the ipad came out, you'll know where I am coming from.

Which is very nice, if you want to read your comics on your computer. I was speaking in terms of providing comics to the newer portable digital download devices. I would assume that those who enjoy comics on their computer have been doing so for quite some time (legally and/or)


Err...
http://www.gizmodo.com.au/2010/06/comic-viewer-for-ipad-lets-you-surf-for-comics-in-app/

You can also use Calibre to convert them to epubs and read them in ibook or stanza. Yes, its that easy! You can also read them in you ereaders, but the result would be less than optimal. They can easily sell these and people will buy them.

The problem is with the print industry as a whole, including comic companies. They are stuck way too much in the past, clinging to formats and business models of the dead medium. They have been working so long in a scarcity-ridden environment, that the post-scarcity world baffles them.

[KSmitty]

Err...
http://www.gizmodo.com.au/2010/06/comic-viewer-for-ipad-lets-you-surf-for-comics-in-app/

You can also use Calibre to convert them to epubs and read them in ibook or stanza. Yes, its that easy! You can also read them in you ereaders, but the result would be less than optimal. They can easily sell these and people will buy them.

Which was one of the devices I mentioned in my original post, which you countered with low numbers (vs the iphone) as regarding the devices market feasability. And you are correct, people are willing to purchase digital comics. Just as the ebook market has been gaining ground over time, more people will begin to see the comics as another form of media they can consume digitally. I believe that companies such as Marvel could speed this process along if digital comics were cheaper than the printed versions.

[muddi900]

My point was that people are willing to read on their computers. If you focus on this functionality alone, the ipad is just an LCD panel. Everyone has an LCD panel. The people who pirate comics have LCD panels, is it such a stretch to believe that they'd be willing to pay for them?