[Episode 32] A Little Help From Our Friends

[Voodoo]

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Despite what the media might tell you, video gaming is an inherently social medium. And while you might not remember it all the time, given the stereotypical image of the PC gamer – fingers stained with cheetos tapping away at hotkeys in dimly lit basements in the middle of the night – it was PC games that first expanded the boundaries of multiplayer gaming beyond the couch and into cyberspace. We want to game with our friends, and X-Box Live and PSN are nice and all, but we were sending headshots to each other across hundreds of miles of distance more than a decade ago, so forgive us if we seem hard to impress.

Rooted in that tradition, going as far back as the first DOOM, is a love of cooperative gameplay, and that’s what we’re here to talk about tonight. The co-op experiences that helped form us as gamers, the ones we enjoy taking part in now, and the ones we’d like to see in the future.

You may notice as you listen that we lament a bit a shift that seems to have happened in game development where co-op play has become a standard of console games (and their PC ports), but rarely the province of PC exclusives. I fear that I might have come across as saying that there are no good PC co-op experiences anymore, though, and that’s very clearly not the case. A quick trip over to our good friends at Co-optimus (http://www.co-optimus.com/) will quickly dispel such a notion, and their list of PC co-op titles (http://www.co-optimus.com/system/4/pc.html) is a fantastic resource. And, of course, the indie and mod scene haven’t forgotten the importance of co-op play; last episode’s indie game Flotilla (http://www.blendogames.com/flotilla/) has a local co-op mode, and mods like Fistful of Frags (http://www.moddb.com/mods/fistful-of-frags) and Sven Co-op (http://www.moddb.com/mods/sven-co-op-ii) bring the experience to games that didn’t support it initially.

Come join us as we get by… with A Little Help From Our Friends (http://www.immortalmachines.com/?p=278).

Hosted and Summarized by Eric [Ravenlock]
Participants are Robert [Trebor], and J_Arcane
Produced by Clayton [Voodoo]

Direct Download (http://www.immortalmachines.com/public/podcast/A_Little_Help_From_Our_Friends.mp3)
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[nabokovfan87]

Were you referring to local or MP co-op in this post? Borderlands is probably the biggest co-op one on there.

My favorites are RS, GR, or SWAT.

[Ravenlock]

Not sure what you mean by "local or MP", but I'll assume you meant "local or internet" since co-op is "MP" by definition. ;)

We talked about both, a bit, and about how the local "on the couch" co-op of stuff like Halo may have helped drive it to be more of a force in console games and their ports (of which Borderlands is one, of course) than in PC exclusives. There doesn't tend to be a whole lot of local PC co-op, given the difficulty of splitting the control scheme and the usually smaller screen size.

[nabokovfan87]

Not sure what you mean by "local or MP", but I'll assume you meant "local or internet" since co-op is "MP" by definition. ;)

We talked about both, a bit, and about how the local "on the couch" co-op of stuff like Halo may have helped drive it to be more of a force in console games and their ports (of which Borderlands is one, of course) than in PC exclusives. There doesn't tend to be a whole lot of local PC co-op, given the difficulty of splitting the control scheme and the usually smaller screen size.

Typo, yes I mean local vs. online. One of the big co-op stuff back in the day was the NHL games by EA, of course madden and tiger woods, but other then that, you can't really share a keyboard or do something like that unless the game is very simple. For NHL I would use kb and my friend would use a controller (back in the 90's mind you) and that worked well. For tiger woods, we would just pass the mouse back and forth, that is all it takes to control the game. Other then that everything was always online.

Sounds like having the m$ controller compatablity should lend a helping hand to pc ports, that, of course, is assuming that m$ will want their games on pc and the xbox.

[nabokovfan87]

Listened to the episode now. Interesting to hear you all bring up all these games and not mention the ubisoft games (RS and GR). I was practially shouting in my mind to bring up the serious sam hd stuff (which eventually happened) because that is the most recent thing I can think of that was PC Only.

One of these days when I get a chance to be on I will have to bring up zombie master. It just does so many things. Hearing you all lament about how l4d bugs you and the redemption of hearing ravenlock say "but that's a console game" made me just about shit myself. I highly recommend J arcane and his cohort who backed up what he said in the "wishes" segment, go give that game a look. It is the way something like hl2 and other shooters (fear, l4d, etc.) all should go about doing a co-op game and opens up to any number of players, not just 4.

[Ravenlock]

*Shrug* Honestly I never played Rainbow Six or Ghost Recon in co-op.

Actually I never played Ghost Recon at all, and only played Rainbow Six by myself. Just wasn't a time for me when I was playing many PC games multiplayer.

So that's why that was missing.

[Voodoo]

I highly recommend J arcane and his cohort...

Haha! Calling me a "cohort"? LOL! :D

I would highly recommend not going to Las Vegas as your winning chances are fairly poor... Wow! :eek:

And...I was practially shouting in my mind to bring up the serious sam hd stuff (which eventually happened) because that is the most recent thing I can think of that was PC Only.
...Incorrect (http://www.xbox.com/en-US/games/s/serioussamxbla/).

[nabokovfan87]

Haha! Calling me a "cohort"? LOL! :D

I would highly recommend not going to Las Vegas as your winning chances are fairly poor... Wow! :eek:

And...
...Incorrect (http://www.xbox.com/en-US/games/s/serioussamxbla/).

Well... I thought it was. Again, its really good co-op on the pc, like ravenlock said.

*Shrug* Honestly I never played Rainbow Six or Ghost Recon in co-op.

Actually I never played Ghost Recon at all, and only played Rainbow Six by myself. Just wasn't a time for me when I was playing many PC games multiplayer.

So that's why that was missing.

I'm sure James, Jeremy, and Scott can back me up on this, but it is some of the best co-op out there. Replace the AI dudes with humans, go through all of the missions in the normal SP or you can just do a "terrorist hunt" mode where there are no objects. In SWAT 4, and I assume the other 3 had something similar, you just played through the SP with humans instead of bots and could use the picture in picture views to see what others see. There is nothing like counting down and busting open door, following the rush into a room and beating the living crap out of "1 hit and your dead" games. Swat takes it to a new level because typically you want to arrest people instead of killing them, limiting what weapons you can use, and dramatically changing the rush in triggers held down mentality to a more mythodical and mindful shooter.

Speaking of which, the top down indie game, frozen synapse, imagine that with 4 on 4 mp vs. or 5 on 5, or co-op. Would be great to see them get that in there.

[Ravenlock]

I wouldn't bank on the "other 3" SWAT games having anything like SWAT 4 did, especially SWAT 1 and 2 since the first one was an FMV game (http://www.gamespot.com/pc/strategy/policequestswat/index.html) and the 2nd was essentially a top-down real time strategy game (http://www.gamespot.com/pc/strategy/policequestswat2/index.html?om_act=convert&om_clk=gssimilargames&tag=similargames%3Bimg%3B1) (and they both kinda sucked). ;) SWAT 3 was the first shooter in the series.

Does sound cool, though. Someday when I have free time (ha) I'll check it out. :)

Co-op is something they know people want for Frozen Synapse, they're not sure it'll make release but that doesn't rule out its coming later. More than 1v1 gameplay for that game might work, or might just get too chaotic. Part of the enjoyment of the game is the extreme micromanagement of a small set of guys in a tight space. Increasing the number of guys, or decreasing the number you get to control, might upset that balance.

[nabokovfan87]

I wouldn't bank on the "other 3" SWAT games having anything like SWAT 4 did, especially SWAT 1 and 2 since the first one was an FMV game (http://www.gamespot.com/pc/strategy/policequestswat/index.html) and the 2nd was essentially a top-down real time strategy game (http://www.gamespot.com/pc/strategy/policequestswat2/index.html?om_act=convert&om_clk=gssimilargames&tag=similargames%3Bimg%3B1) (and they both kinda sucked). ;) SWAT 3 was the first shooter in the series.

Does sound cool, though. Someday when I have free time (ha) I'll check it out. :)

Co-op is something they know people want for Frozen Synapse, they're not sure it'll make release but that doesn't rule out its coming later. More than 1v1 gameplay for that game might work, or might just get too chaotic. Part of the enjoyment of the game is the extreme micromanagement of a small set of guys in a tight space. Increasing the number of guys, or decreasing the number you get to control, might upset that balance.

Yeah, I know swat 2 was a top down esque experience, isometric moreso, something like what the psp version featured. I would think 3 had similar co-op features. Seeing 1 just looks crazy. Either way, whenever any of you want to give those a shot, I will be glad to play tour guide if you need someone.

Very nice to see frozen synapse has the idea in mind. I was thinking more along the lines of doing squads on a larger map maybe 2 team vs. 2 team, or do it where one person controls one guy on one side, maybe up to 4v4 or if you want expand on the squads idea but make each person human controlled. Either way, cannot wait to get my hands on that game and give 'er a try.

[Ravenlock]

Robot ninjas.

Robot ninjas IN SPACE.

KAMIKAZE ROBOT NINJAS IN SPACE.

I like to imagine that the meeting where Plain Sight (http://www.plainsightgame.com/) got greenlit went something like that. People crowd around a boardroom table, while a presenter puts those lines up on the projector, one at a time. At the first, a hush falls over the room. At the second, several people begin to rise from their chairs – perhaps an intern faints. At the third line, a cheer spreads throughout the room. Chest bumps occur. Everyone storms from the room in celebration, leaves work early and goes out for a drink. Because honestly, once you’ve hit on kamikaze robot ninjas in space, isn’t your work done?

Of course, that isn’t true – the work of making a game only just begins with the concept. The good news is, Beatnik Games (http://www.beatnikgames.co.uk/) followed through on the hard part, too. A frantic, silly action multiplayer game, Plain Sight will challenge your reflexes and your tactical skills as you zoom around in low gravity, destroying your robot ninja rivals and claiming their delicious energy for your own.

Sadly no demo for Plain Sight currently exists, but the cost of entry is a reasonable $10 (http://store.steampowered.com/app/49900/) and in my opinion, the return on investment in terms of hilarious entertainment is very high.

But don’t just take my word for it – listen to the Episode 32 Indiecast (http://www.immortalmachines.com/?p=292) to hear what my fellow podcasters thought, and decide for yourselves.

Hosted and Summarized by Eric [Ravenlock]
Participants are Robert [Trebor], and Producer Clayton [Voodoo]

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[nabokovfan87]

I saw a video of that game on giantbomb. seemed way more interesting hearing you all talk about it.

[Doogie2K]

So I'm curious if you could recommend a cheap co-op shooter or two. The problem I have is that between me and my two friends, we have one guy in severe financial restriction, one guy in moderate financial restriction (me), and one guy with no financial restriction, but severe time restriction. So on the rare occasions we do get together, we wind up spending a lot of time playing co-op, but usually co-op strategy games (though occasionally something like Sacred 2), and I'd like to change it up, because we all try to go for a different Awesome Thing in our comp-stomps, and it gets rather frustrating waiting for all our Awesome Things to come up simultaneously. There's a few possibilities on my Steam list, but I was curious if you guys had any ideas that I might have missed.

[nabokovfan87]

So I'm curious if you could recommend a cheap co-op shooter or two. The problem I have is that between me and my two friends, we have one guy in severe financial restriction, one guy in moderate financial restriction (me), and one guy with no financial restriction, but severe time restriction. So on the rare occasions we do get together, we wind up spending a lot of time playing co-op, but usually co-op strategy games (though occasionally something like Sacred 2), and I'd like to change it up, because we all try to go for a different Awesome Thing in our comp-stomps, and it gets rather frustrating waiting for all our Awesome Things to come up simultaneously. There's a few possibilities on my Steam list, but I was curious if you guys had any ideas that I might have missed.

SWAT 4 (http://www.amazon.com/SWAT-4-Gold-Pc/dp/B000EDVRUA/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=videogames&qid=1274597912&sr=8-1), RS Lockdown (http://store.steampowered.com/app/15000/), borderlands, graw/gr, etc. or just hop in a game of cs:s, or some other valve game and go on the same team.

Zombie master (http://zombiemaster.org/files.php) is great as well and free.

[Ravenlock]

Either of the Serious Sam HD upgrades is a solid co-op shooter choice as well, though obviously much more in the ridiculous cartoony vein than something like GRAW, RS or SWAT.

[Doogie2K]

Serious Sam HD! Of course! How did I forget that? I was waiting for them to get packaged up the way I bought them back in the day, but that's certainly a solid idea. I also have RE5, but I'm the only one on that account, so that's right out (and it's only two-player co-op, anyway).

CS is probably right out, simply because while everyone and his dog owns it, unless everyone in the server is of comparable ability, it's no fun, because of all the angry twitchy motherfuckers who've been playing it non-stop since 1999. We have, however, done UT/UT2004/UT3 team games in the past, turned up the AI difficulty and seen how long we could last. I also have Shattered Horizon, though I'm not sure if anyone else does.

Borderlands would be fine, except it would suffer the same problem as Diablo or Sacred in that it would not be doable in an entire weekend, never mind a few hours. And, again, I think I'm the only one with it.

I'll have to look into Zombie Master. Free is always a good idea. Speaking of, Tribes Next (http://www.tribesnext.com/) is a free port of Tribes 2 to modern systems, which the GWJ folks were doing for their "Play Date" a few weeks back.

[nabokovfan87]

Serious Sam HD! Of course! How did I forget that? I was waiting for them to get packaged up the way I bought them back in the day, but that's certainly a solid idea. I also have RE5, but I'm the only one on that account, so that's right out (and it's only two-player co-op, anyway).

Oh yeah, lol, that is good, I don't know if it is the texture stuff or what, but man that game is tough to run for me. Good thing is there are a ton of settings, so you should be able to change things and make it very playable.

CS is probably right out, simply because while everyone and his dog owns it, unless everyone in the server is of comparable ability, it's no fun, because of all the angry twitchy motherfuckers who've been playing it non-stop since 1999. We have, however, done UT/UT2004/UT3 team games in the past, turned up the AI difficulty and seen how long we could last. I also have Shattered Horizon, though I'm not sure if anyone else does.

CS, yes I know, but keep in mind there are "noob servers", crazy hardcore servers, but I would always tell someone to start with gun game. You don't have to worry about selecting a weapon, and reverse gun game makes it difficult for better players (essentially starts with the m249 and goes down to a pistol, nade, knife).