MMOs you have enjoyed [Archive]

ClannerDelta

03-18-2010, 08:25 AM

I honestly can't remember all the MMOs I've played. Too many, I'm sure.

World of Warcraft: I have fits where I really want to play it, then other times I nearly want to throw up whenever it's mentioned. Was fun while I played though. When I first started, there was that 2-3 month period when everyone was leveling. Made the open PvP a hell of a lot of fun.

Age of Conan: As much as they royally fucked the launch, I loved the Bear Shaman. It was such a unique class for an MMO. Having my heals centered around positioning instead of targeting was like a gift from the Gods. That and I got to DPS like crazy.

Planetside: Such a fantastic concept. I had a great outfit which made the game so much better. That's a game where being able to orchestrate the large scale maneuvers just made it more fun for everyone involved. Having a trio of Galaxies show up and drop MAX's and Heavy Infantry on to the roof just added to the chaos. Lots of good memories.

EverQuest: As odd as it sounds, the game actually got me through a difficult time in life. Being able to run away from my problems was incredibly helpful and gave me the time I needed to figure out what I was going to do. It was also my first MMO. A Cleric on Innoruuk PvP. Thinking about it, I must have had a thing for asinine corpse runs. Given the choice today, I'd rather wrap my testicles in barbed wire.

SilentScreams

03-18-2010, 08:25 AM

Only 2 actually, and some wouldn't count Guild Wars as an MMO. There was also a brief stint of Urban Dead (free MMO) over at EvAv.

Star Wars Galaxies I actually enjoyed quite a bit. Enough to master 2 classes and stay subscribed for 6 months. Once a significant portion of the playerbase became jedis it started to ruin the experience for me.

Guild Wars I played on and off for about 2 years. Great little game. Clocked about 600 hours total. Probably some of the best value for my gaming dollar I've ever had.

I did actually have fun for a while with SWG, but I eventually got stuck at a point where I basically needed to grind out so much XP that it would have taken forever. I was going for the Commando class, and I had all the marksman style skills for it, I just needed loads of that general combat XP (I forget the exact names). The one that you got a little bit of with every kill. Even fully buffed up and killing stuff way above my level, it would have taken days of mindless grinding.

W00t for the Neocron 1/2 mentions! :)

Neocron was a great idea, but I just never got into it.

ClannerDelta

03-18-2010, 08:27 AM

Shadowstorm

03-18-2010, 08:28 AM

EVE Online :).

Chris_D

03-18-2010, 08:33 AM

I did actually have fun for a while with SWG, but I eventually got stuck at a point where I basically needed to grind out so much XP that it would have taken forever. I was going for the Commando class, and I had all the marksman style skills for it, I just needed loads of that general combat XP (I forget the exact names). The one that you got a little bit of with every kill. Even fully buffed up and killing stuff way above my level, it would have taken days of mindless grinding.

I started with Rifleman. I think it might have been kind of similar to Commando (it was a while ago). Found it a tough grind to begin with. So I switched to Teras Kasai (the unarmed class). For starters, you don't need an expensive rifle. Also, xp seemed to come thick and fast. I maxed out that quickly and then found I could do rifleman fairly quickly after that. It was a reasonable combination for PvP also. A friend who was only doing rifle never managed to master it before he quit the game :).

Ten19

03-18-2010, 08:53 AM

The MMO's I have bought/tried. The ones in bold I subscribed to (with length in parens). If it's a free MMO, I bolded it if I kept playing for more than a month. The ones with a star are extra awesome.

Age of Conan
Aion
Allods Online (beta)
Asheron's Call
Atlantica Online (3-4 months)
Champions Online (beta)
City of Heroes (6 months off/on)
Dark Age of Camelot
Dungeons & Dragons Online
Global Agenda (current, 2 months so far)
EVE Online** (current, 5 years off/on)
Everquest 2 (4-5 months)
Fallen Earth
Final Fantasy XI (10-12 months off/on)
Guild Wars (3 months played off/on)
Lego Universe (beta)
Lineage 2
Lord of the Rings: Online* (1 year off/on)
Matrix: Online
Neocron (2 months)
Pirates of the Burning Sea
Planetside
Saga of Ryzom* (8 months off/on)
Shin Megami Tensei: Imagine
Star Trek Online
Star Wars Galaxies** (1 year, Pre CU/NGE)
A Tale in the Desert
Warhammer Online (3 months)
World of Warcraft (2 years)

Khrymsyn

03-18-2010, 09:13 AM

MMOs I've played :
Ultima Online
Everquest
Star Wars Galaxies
Guild Wars
Eve Online
Pirates of the Burning Sea
World of Warcraft
Lord of the Rings Online
Star Trek Online
Aces High

Notes :
Ultima Online : Played for the first bit of "free with purchase" time, quit, and never went back. At the time I was really looking forward to this, but honestly, the game was just so newbie BRUTAL at the beginning. I spent almost every single play session in this fashion : Spawn in, walk 10 steps, check inventory, get slaughtered by someone griefing. Rinse and repeat. I truly don't think I ever made it out of the starting town even once.

Everquest : This game truly, is my MMO love, and at the same time, vehement hate. I believe I played well over 5 years. Was in (and helped run) a few different guilds, enjoyed my time greatly, and even got some write ups about goofy stuff I'd do just to pass the time (Such as the saving a lvl 45 Tank with my lvl 28 Pally during a raid at Lake of Ill Omen, or the ever popular "drunken noobie races"). The thing I loved the most about the game was what basically got me to stop playing. The "in game" drama eventually became "in real life" drama with some people, and just soured me on the whole thing.

World of Warcraft : Likely if it weren't for my EQ experiences, I'd be subscribed and hopelessly addicted. Every trial I've played this in reminded me greatly of a much more "polished" EQ. For better or worse.

Eve Online : No game has ever really come as close to sucking me in like EQ as this has, yet, it never actually did it. The complexity, full featured-ness, and overall design are remarkable to me. The player driven history and economy is phenominal, and nothing on this earth is more entertaining than trying to take your "woflpack" of yourself and 5 teammates behind enemy lines, disrupt their mining and shipping operations, then trying to escape through gate camps all the way back to Empire space. The only problem? That 2 1/2 hours of complete bliss is surrounded by over 80+ hours of "spredsheet simulation" and mining, plus, it's 2 1/2 hours of no breaks... very tough to do consistently when it starts at 11PM and you have to wake up in 6 hours for work.

Star Trek Online and Lord of the Rings Online : Putting them both in the same exact description. Both games with awesome lore backgrounds, decent enough graphics, and not horrible gameplay. Neither grabbed me as much asI desperately wanted.

Star Wars Galaxies : Worst... dissapointment... ever. Except for the dancing and music making.

Aces High : (www.hitechcreations.com) - This is technically an MMO but I don't really view it as such. WWII (and now WWI) flight sim, that can throw 500+ people into an arena to bash it out with Fighters, Bombers, Tanks, and even the occasional Jet (ME-262). I tend to play this in spurts, and have actually gotten some of my artwork in game, but have gotten tired of cancelling and resubscribing over and over, so I now tend to pay for 2 months for every month I play pretty heavily.

Looking forward to trying?
Knights of the Old Republic =)

rein

03-18-2010, 09:15 AM

Ultima Online (several months)
Everquest (OMG it was my life!)
Everquest 2 (not so much)
Everquest Online Adventures/Frontiers (I had a lot of fun with this one)
Dark Age of Camelot (my second fav ever behind Everquest)
WoW (Great game and go back now and then)
Planetside (part of the Station Pass so of course I played it often)
Final Fantasy XI (I started out loving it and then sort of fell off the band wagon when I had to look for groups)

I'm trying to resist Fallen Earth because it looks like something that would consume a large part of my time.

Goronmon

03-18-2010, 09:22 AM

MMOs I've spent a non-trivial amount of time playing:

Age of Conan
Aion
Allods Online
Anarchy Online
Asheron's Call
Atlantica Online
Auto Assault
Battleground Europe: WWII Online
Champions Online
City of Heroes
Dark Age of Camelot
Darkfall
Dungeons & Dragons Online
Dungeon Runners
Earth and Beyond
EVE Online
Everquest
Everquest 2
Fallen Earth
Final Fantasy XI
Free Realms
Guild Wars
Hellgate: London
Horizons
Huxley
Lineage 2
Lord of the Rings: Online
Mythos
Pirates of the Burning Sea
Planetside
Runes of Magic
Saga of Ryzom
Star Trek Online
Star Wars Galaxies
Ultima Online
Warhammer Online
World of Warcraft
Wurm Online

Ones that really stood out for me:

Asheron's Call
Dungeons and Dragons Online
EVE Online
Planetside
Warhammer Online
World of Warcraft

Jeffool

03-18-2010, 09:27 AM

I thoroughly enjoyed UO, but only played it a few months. SWG was really fun, but I was too deep in school at the time and only played a couple of free trials.

Planetside I beta'd and fell in love with. The only problem was the fact that every time you logged in, everything had changed. If the over-arching gameplay moved a bit slower, it would've been perfect. Maybe have checks every 24hours at each point, and when that point's timer reached zero, whoever "had" it, kept it for the next 24 hours? It would help focus roamers into battle, and make it more tactical, imo. (Do we go after points when they're about to re-check, or after, when everyone's forgotten about them? When's the sweet spot for setting up a good defense? An hour before check? Ten minutes? Etc.)

I also played WoW. I think I got to level 11 before I felt like gouging my eyes out.

And I tried the EVE Online free pass. I also felt like gouging my eyes out for entirely different reasons after one play. I'm perfectly fine with steep learning curves and tons of stuff to learn, but that doesn't mean it can't be fun, too.

/edit: Oh, I forgot, I was in the beta for D&D: Online. ... It was... Forgettable.

ClannerDelta

03-18-2010, 09:35 AM

Planetside I beta'd and fell in love with. The only problem was the fact that every hour everything changed. If the over-arching gameplay moved a bit slower, it would've been perfect. Maybe have checks every 24hours at each point, and when that point's timer reached zero, whoever "had" it, kept it for the next 24 hours? It would help focus roamers into battle, and make it more tactical, imo. (Do we go after points when they're about to re-check, or after, when everyone's forgotten about them? When's the sweet spot for setting up a good defense? An hour before check? Ten minutes? Etc.)

Honestly, more things like the end of Oshur. I don't know how much it cost Sony, but it was pretty epic. The meteor showers and impending doom of the continent really got everyone focused into certain areas. We even had a pitched battle nowhere near a facility along a beach. Was pretty great.

Ten19

03-18-2010, 09:52 AM

The only problem? That 2 1/2 hours of complete bliss is surrounded by over 80+ hours of "spredsheet simulation" and mining
Just wanted to point out, because EVE is my baby and I love her, that if you think you HAVE to do spreadsheet simulations and mining to get by on EVE, you weren't playing it right ;)

RandoM51

03-18-2010, 10:02 AM

1) How many MMOs have you played?

Everquest (beta)
Anarchy Online (beta)
Asheron's Call (retail)
Dark Age of Camelot (retail)
World of Warcraft (beta, retail)
Final Fantasy XI (retail)
Asheron's Call 2 (beta)
LoTRO (retail)
Tabula Rasa (beta)
Age of Conan (retail)
Warhammer Online (retail)

2) How many of those have you enjoyed enough to stick with for more than the free month?

Asheron's Call
Dark Age of Camelot
World of Warcraft
Final Fantasy XI

DnDO is hardly what I'd call massively multiplayer. It is like Guild Wars in that lots of people play it, they just don't play it together since it is almost entirely instanced.

Squidbot

03-18-2010, 10:47 AM

Hmmm, let's see, again in no particular order, and missing out some of the god awful asian market crap:

Ultima Online
Everquest
Everquest 2
Anarchy Online
Dark Age of Camelot
Horizons
Warhammer Online
WoW
Planetside
Neocron
Age of Conan
Matrix Online
Star Wars Galaxies
City of Heroes
Champions Online
Final Fantasy XI
Fallen Earth
EVE Online
D&D online
Lord of the Rings
Allods
Guild Wars
Sercond Life
Pirates of the Burning Sea
Vanguard
Phantasy Star Universe
Rf
Archlord
Chronicles of Spellborn

I'm an MMO junkie. Obviously I have greatly enjoyed WoW, most of all pre TBC, but I am still enjoying it.

The best MMO for me was Star Wars Galaxies pre CU/NGE. If the game had been tweaked and balaned, and left as it was, I would likely still be playing it today.

Goronmon

03-18-2010, 11:23 AM

Just wanted to point out, because EVE is my baby and I love her, that if you think you HAVE to do spreadsheet simulations and mining to get by on EVE, you weren't playing it right ;)It's funny when people say that EVE is just a spreadsheet simulator because some people who play WoW actually do use spreadsheets to simulate gear and ability rotations to determine the best setups to use.

Vandabo

03-18-2010, 11:38 AM

I haven't played all that many mmos...

WoTmud
Air Warrior
Battletech: Solaris
Ragnarok Online
Star Wars Galaxies
Planetside
Anarchy Online
City of Heroes
Star Trek Online

I've played others that I only tried for a day or two, but these are the ones that I've played for more than a month.

WoTmud (Wheel of Time mud) was probably one of the most fun I've had with this kind of thing, even though it was text based, it had a great tight knit community and it was really accurately based off of the Wheel of Time books. It was also free, which helped when I was in high school.

Ravenlock

03-18-2010, 12:04 PM

I've tried:

The Realm (which almost no-one has ever heard of but it's still my favorite MMO memory)
Everquest I
Everquest II
Asheron's Call
Lord of the Rings Online
World of Warcraft
Age of Conan
Anarchy Online
Star Trek Online
City of Heroes
Champions Online
Warhammer Online
Star Wars Galaxies
Second Life
Mythos
Guild Wars
Fallen Earth
A bunch of MUDs
A bunch of free-to-play ones like Runes of Magic, Allods, etc.

It's odd, I don't think of myself as an MMO player, but there's almost 20 on that list so I guess I do like checking them out a whole lot.

The only ones I've paid for have been The Realm (multiple years), Guild Wars (one time fee), WoW (about 6 months) and LotRO (about 4 months). I would have happily paid for Mythos if it had ever come to fruition. Hopefully Runic's MMO in the Torchlight universe will live up to what Mythos could've been.

Ten19

03-18-2010, 12:33 PM

It's funny when people say that EVE is just a spreadsheet simulator because some people who play WoW actually do use spreadsheets to simulate gear and ability rotations to determine the best setups to use.

Most MMO enthusists end up doing number crunching, it's true. It just bugs the shit out of me when people parrot the lie that EVE is all about "spreadsheets in space" when the reality is, it will only be what you make of it. If you want to engage in the financial side of it, yes, you have to crunch numbers. If you want to go blow shit up, the only numbers you see is the damage you're doing.

Vigil80

03-18-2010, 01:02 PM

Anarchy Online
Earth & Beyond
Fallen Earth
Lord of the Rings Online
Star Trek Online
Tabula Rasa (played it from beginning to end :( )
World of Warcraft

What MMOs are people specifically enjoying now? In the wake of feeling let down by STO - much as I hate to admit it - I really want a MMO to love and call my own. I've been tempted to return to WoW, especially with the upcoming Cataclysm, but that doesn't seem like the greatest idea.

Goronmon

03-18-2010, 01:08 PM

What MMOs are people specifically enjoying now? In the wake of feeling let down by STO - much as I hate to admit it - I really want a MMO to love and call my own. I've been tempted to return to WoW, especially with the upcoming Cataclysm, but that doesn't seem like the greatest idea.EVE is one of the few that I've managed to stick with for any length of time. Though admittedly I haven't actually played much over the last month or so other than changing skills.

Zanzibar

03-18-2010, 01:21 PM

Meridian 59 (Played for over a year)
Everquest (Played for over a year)
Planetside (Played for free period, didn't subscribe)
World of Warcraft (Played for over a year)
Anarchy Online (Played for free period, didn't subscribe)
Earth and Beyond (Played for free period, didn't subscribe)
Second Life (Got the hell out of there after about 2 hours)

Khrymsyn

03-18-2010, 02:06 PM

Just wanted to point out, because EVE is my baby and I love her, that if you think you HAVE to do spreadsheet simulations and mining to get by on EVE, you weren't playing it right ;)

Perhaps, but when your corp says we're happy to buy you ships and parts within, or even slightly above your skill level, under one condition, you show for mining missions and help out earn them some cash. It wasn't manadatory every night or anything crazy like that, but you were definitely expected to give some to get some, so to speak.

Otherwise I would have never had my Wolf for pack hunts or Scythe to help on said mining evenings ;-)

and I only said "spreadsheet simulation" to get you going. hehehe

BigJonno

03-18-2010, 02:21 PM

I don't think anyone has posted a commercially released in the UK MMO that I haven't played.

The best MMO for me was Star Wars Galaxies pre CU/NGE. If the game had been tweaked and balaned, and left as it was, I would likely still be playing it today.

This. This is much truthiness.

BrassGecko

03-18-2010, 02:26 PM

Perhaps, but when your corp says we're happy to buy you ships and parts within, or even slightly above your skill level, under one condition, you show for mining missions and help out earn them some cash. It wasn't manadatory every night or anything crazy like that, but you were definitely expected to give some to get some, so to speak.

Otherwise I would have never had my Wolf for pack hunts or Scythe to help on said mining evenings ;-)

and I only said "spreadsheet simulation" to get you going. hehehe

It all depends on the corp, for that! :)

I've only played WoW and EVE. WoW held me for a month before I got bored with it, back relatively close to when it released. EVE still has me hooked.

SilentScreams

03-18-2010, 02:35 PM

For me, Planetside was my favourite, but I quit when they introduced BFRs.
Ultima Online was my first MMO, and I will always have a special affection for it. The best parts died when EA took over though.
I want an MMO to play now, but I'm trying not to go back to WoW. Until Cataclysm anyway.

Anybody played Champions lately? Have they patched the fun back in yet?

Sly Marbo

03-18-2010, 02:38 PM

I've played countless MMOs.

My favorites:

EVE Online (easily my favorite, has everything I need)
Asheron's Call (My first. Old school FFA PVP server made me the man I am today)
Planetside (like others have said, such a great concept)
WoW (It's popular because it's really good)

Rakael

03-18-2010, 02:41 PM

I have played a few, and I have to agree on SWG. That game had a lot of potential that was totally squandered. I am one of those people who like the idea of an MMO, but never seems to last more than two months. Planetside was by far my longest played, but even that was only 3-4 months.

WoW
Planetside
Neocron - Actually my first MMO. Awesome concept.
Eve Online
Age of Conan
Warhammer Online
DAoC

I know there are more, but I honestly can't think of them right now.

Narradisall

03-18-2010, 02:45 PM

I've tried a fair few, but the only ones I every really subbed to where

Everquest 1 and World of Warcraft. Loved them both.

I recall trying Ultima's, EQ2, STO, etc, but I haven't really gone beyond the beta's or trials on the various others.

Rakael

03-18-2010, 02:46 PM

I'm actually looking to free trial something right now. Fallen Earth looks interesting, but about as butt ugly as it can get from the screen shots I have seen.

Zanzibar

03-18-2010, 02:51 PM

BigJonno

03-18-2010, 03:07 PM

I thought Planetside was an awesome concept, and the moment-to-moment gameplay was a blast, but overall it felt like a giant game of Risk. Your turn, grab your group together, steamroll over a dozen territories, 'gg everybody', log off. Log back on, somebody had steamrolled you. Spawn at base. Get group together. Repeat ad nauseum.

They needed some way to establish battle lines in a more coherent fashion.

I loved PS, but it didn't seem persistent enough to me. I'm sure that it was supposed to have a lot more non-combat elements and a more complex overall structure. As it was, it didn't feel "massive" enough compared to Battlefield or Tribes to be worth a monthly fee.

Hawkzombie

03-18-2010, 05:16 PM

Age of Conan before it got patched to utter shit. Even if they restore it to launch status, I still wouldn't go back. A pity too...really fun game with boobies.

WoW - I will always like this game, but every time I've ever quit it was for two reasons: I got bored, and the people on the server were a bunch of douche bags. Hell is other WoW players, which is sad, as it really is a fun game at high levels, and honestly I miss my priest :p

Anything Cryptic has done: Awesome concepts, piss poor execution and non existent end game.

Oh, and Fallen Earth. Awesome concepts, a dev team that genuinely seems to care, but clunky, deal breaking (for me) combat.

SilentScreams

03-18-2010, 05:28 PM

Fallen Earth deserves to do better than it will I think.

JRR006

03-18-2010, 05:28 PM

Squidbot

03-18-2010, 11:58 PM

I'm currently reinstalling EQ2, as the Mrs has a bee in her bonet about playing it again.

Zecon

03-19-2010, 12:17 AM

EverQuest -1 year
Phantasy star online -1 year
Final Fantasy XI - 1 year
World of Warcraft - 2 years - current? (dunno if I'm going to renew or not).

Pale Ale

03-19-2010, 12:42 AM

Hmm...

Dark Age of Camelot - First MMO I played. I still open my account once or twice a year to poke around. I had such an amazingly good time, probably because it was my first experience with the genre. I think my highest character is still only level 45 or so. If that's my life's worst failure I guess I can live with it.

I was gonna josh you about that but then all those DAOC memories came back. I would have never made it to 50 if it wasn't for my guild.

Champions Online (2 months)
World of Warcraft (3 months)
Dark Age of Camelot (2 1/2 years)
City of Heroes (Almost 6 years now)

Various crappy Korean style MMO for a brief amount of time that might as well all be the same game. Guild Wars, which is pretty much the same thing but made domestically.

Knightsaber

03-19-2010, 12:55 AM

Everquest 2 (trial)
Istaria (formerly Horizons) (trial)
Warhammer Online (2 months)
World of Warcraft (5 years)
Aion (2 months)
Planetside (One time only)
Star Wars Galaxies (2 years..sniff, I miss yeh old SWG)
City of Heroes (about a week)
Champions Online (one month)
Star Trek Online (1.5 months)
Fallen Earth (2 play sessions)
EVE Online (one 14 day trial)
World War II Online (off and on for 9 years)

Summary:
SWG was my first, but she didn't love me back after 2005. We know why, the whore.

WoW was an off and on and mostly on, until I realized I had plenty of purple and didn't desire different purple...took a long time to figure that out.

WWIIOL is the kind of game you play in spurts for most people...the crazy guys play every night. It is still the most realistic WW2 game I've met to date.

EVE I can see how it might be ok if you're waaaay more patient than I am and you started early.

STO could have been great...but but but sigh. Along with CO. I am now firmly on the never-again-associate-with-Cryptic-list.

Aion is one of the nicest looking games, especially online that I've seen. Yeah that's about it.

Warhammer wasn't too bad when people played it. Occasionally.

The trials of games I've played just didn't click. There's probably more. Yep, Vanguard, played that for a week. No one else did...

Fingers crossed for next year and the Old Republic. Being a Bioware man-slut, I have high hopes.

SilentScreams

03-19-2010, 08:01 AM

What I'd love (apart from Blizzard's new mystery MMO turning out to be a Planetside clone) is a next gen Ultima Online style game.

Keep the fixed isometric view, keep the skill system (but maybe add more skills in) and update the interface.
Most importantly of all, keep the massive amount of freedom UO gave you. I am yet to play another MMO that offers you the sheer amount of stuff to do as Ultima Online did. Even EVE doesn't come close.
The problem with most modern MMOs is that they're basically "on rails". You're told where to go and when, and you're told exactly how to do everything. On UO, you could do stuff your own way. Want to raise your spell resist? Get guild members to cast spells on you. Feeling brave? Go piss off a couple of Reapers and get them casting on you. Want to make some money while you do it? Grab yourself a silver weapon and go fight some Liches.
There's nothing like that in modern MMOs. You're level 12? Go fight level 11-13 stuff until you're level 13. Repeat up until the level cap. Okay, so that's a very simplified version, but you see my point.

Squidbot

03-19-2010, 11:10 AM

Indeed, UO is still pretty much unparalleled in the diversity of content.

Dukefrukem

03-19-2010, 11:30 AM

Hellgate (6 months)
Final Fantasy XI (3 months)
Lord of the Rings: Online* (1 free month)
Matrix: Online (2 months)
Tabula Rasa (1 month)
World of Warcraft (6 months)

BigJonno

03-19-2010, 11:43 AM

ClannerDelta

03-19-2010, 12:31 PM

Someone needs to make a fantasy MMO that is all about doing what you want to do in a fantasy setting, rather than just getting to max level and raiding or doing PvP. Stupidly high levels of customisability from the get-go, a huge breadth of gear, rather than choices being limited because you're going for the same set of new armour as everyone else. I'd like a game where it's easy for your character to become competent, but hard to become truly exceptional. I want to choose my gear based on what I want my character to wear and use, rather than what has the best stats.

I wonder what would be the draw then. You get your Chainmail, your axe and shield, and then you... what? There has to be a payoff for a game. In single player RPGs it might be the loot, but it's mostly the story. In an MMO, I've yet to play one with a story worth caring about. Though Lotro and WAR did a pretty good job of it. Lotro for the Books (Seriously, excellent quests.) and WAR for the world, but the Warhammer world has been pretty well fleshed out for years.

So if not loot, then what?

SilentScreams

03-19-2010, 12:40 PM

Make the game fun, so you have more to think about than the next piece of loot. It sounds obvious, but think about it...how many MMOs keep people hooked purely by the "carrot on a stick" method. Always teasing players with some shiny new gear?

When the day comes when what you do with the gear is more rewarding than the aquisition of said gear, then we've got the new king of MMOs.

BigJonno

03-19-2010, 12:47 PM

I wonder what would be the draw then. You get your Chainmail, your axe and shield, and then you... what? There has to be a payoff for a game. In single player RPGs it might be the loot, but it's mostly the story. In an MMO, I've yet to play one with a story worth caring about. Though Lotro and WAR did a pretty good job of it. Lotro for the Books (Seriously, excellent quests.) and WAR for the world, but the Warhammer world has been pretty well fleshed out for years.

So if not loot, then what?

Actual content, whether it be designed by the developers or player-driven. Killing a dragon should be a big deal and not just another loot pinata. Finding the right ingredient for the magic shield that someone is paying you to make should be difficult, or at least the focus of a decent amount of play time. Building a castle. Researching a new spell. Breeding better warhorses. Diplomacy. Subterfuge. Thievery. Assassination. All kinds of player interaction and competition that don't involve ganking random noobs in the street. Why not through in some random dungeons, action RPG style?

Also, rarity doesn't have to be tied to increasing power levels. Sure, lots of people don't care what stuff looks like, but a lot of other people do. Or you may have an axe that you like, but it might not be your perfect axe. Getting your ideal weapon may take all kinds of rare materials and the skills of several skilled crafters. If the process is interesting, why shouldn't it be long and complex?

I understand that this wouldn't appeal to a lot of people, but if WoW has taught us anything, it's that there are a lot of people who want to play a fantasy MMO. I don't know a single person who wouldn't switch to a better fantasy MMO, but they all have different ideas about what would make a better fantasy MMO. It's why I think the way to go for MMO developers is to make something unique that excels in certain areas and make a big deal about it. Just trying to make WoW again just isn't going to work.

Vyzov

03-19-2010, 12:57 PM

As I have to take off right away, I'll make a quick list and explain later.

Planetside
DAOC
WAR
Earth And Beyond
Star Trek Online
Everquest
WOW
Shadowbane
Anarchy Online
EVE
City Of Heroes

That's pretty much my list of MMOS that I've played and the order I've enjoyed them in.

ClannerDelta

03-19-2010, 12:58 PM

Have you played EQ? As... that seems remarkably similar to what you want. It's also boring as all hell.

Goronmon

03-19-2010, 01:00 PM

Have you played EQ? As... that seems remarkably similar to what you want. It's also boring as all hell.I'm not seeing where EQ matches up with any of those qualities...

ClannerDelta

03-19-2010, 01:01 PM

I'm not seeing where EQ matches up with any of those qualities...

Mainly the arduous crafting system and the Sleeper being the kind of Dragon he wants. Also a huge amount of sarcasm. :p

BigJonno

03-19-2010, 01:02 PM

Have you played EQ? As... that seems remarkably similar to what you want. It's also boring as all hell.

EQ was absolutely nothing like that. Sure, it had some long and convoluted quest chains, but it's still basically the "grind to the top and then raid" model. UO and SWG are the closest to my ideal MMO, but they seem to have been ignored as some kind of evolutionary dead-end. There have been some more recent attempts at sandboxy MMOs, but they focus almost exclusively on being elitist PvP gankfests (hello, Darkfall!)

ClannerDelta

03-19-2010, 01:10 PM

EQ was absolutely nothing like that. Sure, it had some long and convoluted quest chains, but it's still basically the "grind to the top and then raid" model. UO and SWG are the closest to my ideal MMO, but they seem to have been ignored as some kind of evolutionary dead-end. There have been some more recent attempts at sandboxy MMOs, but they focus almost exclusively on being elitist PvP gankfests (hello, Darkfall!)

Alright, but what's your disconnect? You said Assassination like it would be cool. So I'm assuming you mean PvP. Otherwise you're just ganking another loot pinata. So what's the difference between ganking and Assassination?

Goronmon

03-19-2010, 01:14 PM

Alright, but what's your disconnect? You said Assassination like it would be cool. So I'm assuming you mean PvP. Otherwise you're just ganking another loot pinata. So what's the difference between ganking and Assassination?Well, for one, you are pigeon-holing a whole list of stuff into just one aspect. Which is silly.

Secondly, where are the similarities between the two? Ganking is when you find some friends and camp the graveywards in WoW when lowbies die. How is that in any way similar to "assassination"?

BigJonno

03-19-2010, 01:20 PM

There's a difference between meaningful conflict between factions and random gankage.

ClannerDelta

03-19-2010, 01:21 PM

Well, for one, you are pigeon-holing a whole list of stuff into just one aspect. Which is silly.

Secondly, where are the similarities between the two? Ganking is when you find some friends and camp the graveywards in WoW when lowbies die. How is that in any way similar to "assassination"?

To most people. Ganking simply means someone of higher lvl or skill killing someone who either doesn't want to fight or can't defend themselves. Which is... Assassination.

I also don't mean to simply "pigeon-hole" his list. But it's a rather general list of stuff, you have to start somewhere. And from our clear disagreement on what Ganking means, It's as good a place as any.

There's a difference between meaningful conflict between factions and random gankage.

How so? I don't want to come off hostile. The sarcastic post about EQ might have started things wrong, if so, sorry. But this isn't clear to me at all. What constitutes meaningful conflict as opposed to random gankage. I haven't played Darkfall.

BigJonno

03-19-2010, 01:36 PM

Okay, let's assume that there is a strong framework for player factions in this MMO, which we will call Hypothetica Online. There are limited resources available that these factions will fight over. Faction A has a powerful war golem which is protecting its fortress. Faction B wants to assault Faction A's fortress, but wants the golem out the way, or preferably on their side. Faction B takes out a contract on the guy in Faction A who has the golem's control crystal. This costs large amounts of money, so it's not done likely. A player can accept this assassination contract, which gives him the ability to attack and kill the target, but also gives the target, and his faction, the ability to attack and kill him.

So our lone assassin now has to track down his target and kill him. To avoid suicide missions, escape should be part of the requirements. It's not random ganking, the target is unlikely to be defenceless and the kill certainly has a purpose. It all sounds quite complicated, but is actually pretty simple to put in place. All that's required is:

Player factions.
Stuff for the factions to fight over.
The contract mechanic, which isn't complex in itself.

ClannerDelta

03-19-2010, 01:50 PM

Ravenlock

03-19-2010, 02:04 PM

The most interesting and deep player interaction I ever witnessed was actually in a text-based MUD that I played for awhile in college. The name of it is sadly escaping me at the moment, but I'm sure it will come to me later. It was custom coded, and included a lot of very specific and granular methods for seeing, talking to, and physically interacting with other characters.

The thieves, in particular, were handled in a really neat way. Their base was hidden at the back of a bar - "hidden" as in literally known only to people who had played thief characters, not just some door everyone knows about that only thieves can enter - and as a thief character, you were required to enter it unnoticed or not at all. To facilitate this sort of thing, the MUD had states for awareness of your character by others - they could see only a figure, or see your description but not a name ("a man wearing [x] stands in the corner"), or see your name if you had chosen at some point to introduce yourself. It also allowed for physical restrictions between players - one character could block another's way as well as fight them.

Anyhow, what it led to was a scenario where a thief collecting money from somebody who owed them was able to sneak quietly out of the bar at night, move through the shadows to an area in town where their mark was, chase them into an alley, and then physically block them in that alley while more anonymous thieves became visible out of the shadows one by one until the guy was surrounded by cloaked figures and terrified, unable to leave the alley until he paid up or logged off (which, as I recall, would have come with its own penalty).

It was fucking awesome, and the sort of thing that so far graphical MMO's have only dreamed of being able to pull off. Except that as others have noted, after UO they pretty much stopped even dreaming of it, preferring to cater to the crowd that wants to watch a stat bar grow rather than people who want to experience (and create) dynamic content where their actions actually impact other players or the world.

BigJonno

03-19-2010, 02:17 PM

Still ganking, but it's an interesting concept.

Will have the exact same problems as the Bounty Hunter missions in SWG had though. People can just log off. It would be interesting to see how you'd balance fun and work in that kind of scenario. Don't really think it's possible, but I wouldn't mind seeing someone try to fix it.

Maybe get around the gameplay/time/cost/exploits by requiring that a specific kind of Guild take the contract. Like an actual Assassins guild. With something attached to the contract that benefits the guild outside of money or require the retrieval of the Rod as the failsafe against your suicide gank scenario.

I definitely see player run assassin guilds springing up around this kind of thing. People logging would definitely be a problem, although I'm sure there are ways around that.

As for it still being ganking, I see a big part of ganking being defencelessness. I go by the Ankh-Morpork Assassin's Guild reasoning, which is that anyone rich/important enough to be a target of the Guild is rich/important enough not to be classed as defenceless.

ClannerDelta

03-19-2010, 02:26 PM

I definitely see player run assassin guilds springing up around this kind of thing. People logging would definitely be a problem, although I'm sure there are ways around that.

As for it still being ganking, I see a big part of ganking being defencelessness. I go by the Ankh-Morpork Assassin's Guild reasoning, which is that anyone rich/important enough to be a target of the Guild is rich/important enough not to be classed as defenceless.
Then you run into the problem of not having enough reason for the guilds to exist. If it's too expensive, then they spend most of their time with nothing to do. If it's too cheap, you've just provided a game mechanic that requires a great many people get ganked in the street.

Panthera

03-19-2010, 02:30 PM

There's no reason an Assassin has to spend all of his time doing Assassin things. He could have a day job.

ClannerDelta

03-19-2010, 02:34 PM

There's no reason an Assassin has to spend all of his time doing Assassin things. He could have a day job.

In any case. The more I think about it, the more it would have to be guild centric. With individuals not having access to the contracts. You aren't going to be able to do your day job if you're standing around waiting to poach contracts before every other assassin gets 'em. Anyone that has played Earth and Beyond will remember how awful getting missions were when everyone else was competing for the same ones.

J Arcane

03-19-2010, 03:19 PM

The key to good PvP is there need to be proper consequences for leading a life of violence against your fellow man. In UO, it was that you got flagged from then on as a murderer, and people could put you down without repercussion. In EVE, it's that death is costly, and he who lives by the sword dies by the sword, and worse still, there's now actually profit to be made from killing people like you.

This is an unfortunate clash, really, because a good PvE game all but requires a non-existent death penalty, while meaningful PvP one basically requires both a death penalty AND a murder penalty.

Which is why PvP in most mainstream MMOs amounts to ganking and griefing, or Quake 3.

Quinefer

03-19-2010, 05:58 PM

CptTripps

03-19-2010, 06:15 PM

Games I played:

Ultima Online
Everquest
Everquest 2
Dark Age of Camelot
Kineage II
LOTRO
Guild Wars
Asherons Call 2
Warhammer Online
WoW

Betas I played:

Dark and Light
Vanguard
Horizons

Games I lasted more than the free month:

Ultima Online
Dark Age of Camelot
LOTRO
Guild Wars (duh)
Warhammer Online
WoW

Games I Loved and played for 2 or more years:

Ultima Online - Still my favorite experience of all time, just so open for anything. I bought it release day and played very solid until 2001.

Dark Age of Camelot - The PvP was fantastic and the large scale siege warfare is still the best to this day imo. I loved the fact it took a group of Trolls to carry the parts and materials needed to build a trebuchet and that it could be built just about anywhere and slowly moved.

Ravenlock

03-19-2010, 06:38 PM

Hell, you're not talking about ArmageddonMUD (http://www.armageddon.org/)are you? Only the best, most intense role playing MUD (as opposed to a MUSH) ever to grace this planet.

It's only drawback was it's relatively low player population. Things would've been much more intense if they had ~300 people online consistently.

I was not, though I might check that out sometime. I can't swear to it, but I believe it was Threshold (http://www.thresholdrpg.com/).

Wibble

03-22-2010, 06:18 AM

In any case. The more I think about it, the more it would have to be guild centric. With individuals not having access to the contracts. You aren't going to be able to do your day job if you're standing around waiting to poach contracts before every other assassin gets 'em. Anyone that has played Earth and Beyond will remember how awful getting missions were when everyone else was competing for the same ones.

Lets get back to the original topic for a moment. Most MMOs want you to aim for better gear, they are suggesting a game that doesn't require a grind to a goal. As an example they used Ultima Online and that example (pre-EA) was a pretty good one.

Remember, Ultima online has no level system and basic gear was pretty close to the best gear. You could gain 7 skills to 100.0% but they were adequate at 70.0% which was not hard to obtain for most basic skills.

An example of this gameplay:

example 1: I want to be a better wrestler to stop some of my spells being interrupted. I could fight pigs, I could fight bulls, I could fight another player. In the end I chose to go to what was known as "the bone room" and try to gain it there fighting pretty nasty skeletons and training my bandage skills at the same time.

example 2: I was bored so I called a few friends and we decided to try surviving under terathan keep. We spent a long time running from a lot of monsters and sneakily luring them away from their groups to kill them. Along the way we also met a guy who had died and got him healed up and back to his corpse, after which he joined us and continued hunting with us. We didn't get much money or loot, but we had a lot of fun.

example 3: My thief was hanging around town when I saw a guy with a power weapon. The weapon is worth a bit of cash so I snooped in his bag and stole something small. He later caught up with me and attacked me at which point I disarmed his weapon and stole it. We spent the next 5 hours fighting eachother. I was trying to kill him with poison while stealing his bandages and he had acquired a halberd (too heavy to steal) which I had to constantly disarm while trying to teleport and hide. You have no idea how much fun it is to simply be part of a chase. In the end I died to an eventual 4 people he had helping him when someone who had skills specifically for detecting thieves joined him.

My point is you do not need to have gear or levels to aim for to have fun.

GrenMag

03-22-2010, 01:12 PM

I've only played 2 MMOs, and none past Beta.

1) Ultima Online. Nothing left for me there after the global rabbit massacre and fork hoarding incidents.

2) Lego Universe. Fun so far, might stick with it after release if it gets the proper polish.

Heretic Machine

03-22-2010, 01:49 PM

I believe that this is fairly accurate:

Ultima Online: Five-to-six years
Asheron's Call: Six months
Everquest: Roughly four months off-and-on
Anarchy Online: Free month
Horizons: Beta tested; let us never speak of it again
Dark Age of Camelot: Free month + One month after expansion
The Sims Online: Beta tested briefly
Asheron's Call 2: Free trial; among the worst MMOs I've played
Planetside: Free month
Earth & Beyond: Two months
Star Wars Galaxies: Three months
City of Heroes: Off-and-on for three years
World of Warcraft: Off-and-on since release, and consistently since WotLK
Everquest 2: Free month
D&D Online: Beta tested
EVE Online: Free month
Saga of Ryzom: Beta tested
Warhammer Online: Beta tested
FFXI: Beta tested on 360
Pirates of the Burning Sea: Beta tested
Champion's Online: Gave up after a week; beta test was better
Unreleased MMO that is still in beta

I'm not counting free MMOs, MU*'s, or online RPGs that aren't MMO's (PSO, Guild Wars, Diablo... etc)

ClannerDelta

03-22-2010, 02:18 PM

example 1: I want to be a better wrestler to stop some of my spells being interrupted. I could fight pigs, I could fight bulls, I could fight another player. In the end I chose to go to what was known as "the bone room" and try to gain it there fighting pretty nasty skeletons and training my bandage skills at the same time.
That's still a grind and you're still progressing. It might be light and fast, but it's still the tried and true "Need moar exp to be better!" kind of set up. I get the feeling that he wanted something completely different. Maybe EvE's leveling fits his wants or maybe he wants something entirely new, but your situation is still grinding just like every other mmo.

example 2: I was bored so I called a few friends and we decided to try surviving under terathan keep. We spent a long time running from a lot of monsters and sneakily luring them away from their groups to kill them. Along the way we also met a guy who had died and got him healed up and back to his corpse, after which he joined us and continued hunting with us. We didn't get much money or loot, but we had a lot of fun.
This happened in EQ too, the most grindtastic of MMOs. If people have never experienced this kind of thing in an MMO, then that is on them. Not the game's design. There is an appeal to just doing shit, but it's rarely enough on its own. You said it yourself "I was bored". Doing something different every once in a while does not mean that same situation is enough to build a game upon.

example 3: My thief was hanging around town when I saw a guy with a power weapon. The weapon is worth a bit of cash so I snooped in his bag and stole something small. He later caught up with me and attacked me at which point I disarmed his weapon and stole it. We spent the next 5 hours fighting eachother. I was trying to kill him with poison while stealing his bandages and he had acquired a halberd (too heavy to steal) which I had to constantly disarm while trying to teleport and hide. You have no idea how much fun it is to simply be part of a chase. In the end I died to an eventual 4 people he had helping him when someone who had skills specifically for detecting thieves joined him.
So your example of how loot was unnecessary is that you had a badass fight centered around stealing someone's loot? It's a cool story, but it still centered around you wanting X item that was better than your items.

My point is you do not need to have gear or levels to aim for to have fun.

Apparently from your stories, you do.

I'm not unreasonable. So I'll give an example of bigger and better loot being entirely irrelevant. That was in Age of Conan for about 3 months. The stat system was bugged, most of the stats on armor didn't do anything. So at around lvl 30-40 I ended up with some set armor from one of the instances and some missmatched odds and ends that just *looked* right. I used it all the way to 80 because it wouldn't have helped me anyway.

I also hated leveling in that game, but I loved playing the Bear Shaman. So I ended up getting to lvl 80 simply because people kept re-inviting me to groups until I just happened to hit 80. They also had some genuinely fun and interesting content (rarely), but it's only fun for a couple runs. Then it's work.

Which ultimately brings me to my point. Why an MMO? Because of their nature, and the resources required to upkeep them, they need trailing investments to pay off. That is the monthly fee. So any decent content is milked for all it's worth and the gameworld is limited because, no matter what you do, no matter how many dragons you kill, no matter how many Golems you assassinate, they can't leave the change permanent. It's not cost effective to create content simply for a single group of individuals amongst many within an MMO framework. You might get one of instances like the Sleeper's Tomb or the end of Oshur, but those are always the exception.

So why an MMO? A co-op RPG like Oblivion or Dragon Age would be substantially better as most of these things than any MMO ever could. For monetary and development reasons. You could even have multiplayer aspects like Demon's Souls. It would just be a much better experience. Lotro had some engaging story elements, but they were only really engaging because they were essentially single player style with co-op, and the immersion built up in the Books was instantly broken when you left and saw 20 other people LFG for the book you just beat. Also, fuck you Boars... fuck you so hard.

Goronmon

03-22-2010, 02:52 PM

Maybe EvE's leveling fits his wants or maybe he wants something entirely new, but your situation is still grinding just like every other mmo.You have to be careful when using this logic, as you can boil just about every action, whether in real-life or a virtual-life, down to "just grinding" if you feel like it.

So why an MMO? A co-op RPG like Oblivion or Dragon Age would be substantially better as most of these things than any MMO ever could. How is it substantially better for monetary and development reasons? If you have branching story-lines, doing a single-player game doesn't change the fact that you still have to develop the branching story-lines and any associated content.

With MMOs you just have so more options as far as directing how the content plays out. You have games like EVE where actual players control sectors of space and large corporations fight over resources. In other MMOs you have developers controlling certain key NPCs for big events.

ClannerDelta

03-22-2010, 03:31 PM

You have to be careful when using this logic, as you can boil just about every action, whether in real-life or a virtual-life, down to "just grinding" if you feel like it.
I agree, but don't take my quote in a vacuum. Read his example. He fought things to progress both his wrestling skill and bandaging skill. That's grinding. If that's the kind of grinding people want instead of just flat XP. That's fine, but calling it something else is pointless. I also didn't say "just grinding" I said "grinding" the just came after. I was qualifying it as a grind. Not saying it could be considered a grind.

How is it substantially better for monetary and development reasons? If you have branching story-lines, doing a single-player game doesn't change the fact that you still have to develop the branching story-lines and any associated content.
I don't know how to clarify this correctly, but in a singleplayer/co-op RPG you can have one off events that change the game. You can't really justify to the 99% of people who AREN'T going to experience the content in an MMO, that they can't experience it even though they are paying the same as those who did.

So if you have a game centered around NPC's like a fantasy MMO. You're going to end up with Dragonauticus being killed 500 times a day by tons of different people. Which is what Jonno doesn't want. There's the EQ route where only the big guilds ever do anything, not because of skill, but just because of scheduling around a ridiculous spawntime.

With MMOs you just have so more options as far as directing how the content plays out. You have games like EVE where actual players control sectors of space and large corporations fight over resources. In other MMOs you have developers controlling certain key NPCs for big events.

While single-player RPGs have their own limitations. MMOs have just as many.

I do think a fantasy EvE might fit many of Jonno's criteria, there are a lot of things stacked against it. The biggest of which is that all of EvE's amazing stories, the reason people play, the entire foundation of the game. Is acquisition. It's all about greed. So I've never seen it as an escape from the loot treadmill. They just make the treadmill a game all it's own.

BigJonno

03-22-2010, 03:44 PM

I'd love a fantasy EVE, I really would. Or any other setting, as long as it's character based.

Doogie2K

03-22-2010, 04:22 PM

1) One
2) WoW, played it for two years, got sick of the cycle of find guild --> join guild --> raid for a while --> lol dramaz --> guild implodes. Also hated the responsibilities and general bullshit that came with raiding. But I did enjoy the social element, and would love to re-establish contact with some of my old guildmates, maybe see if they want to kick it in D3 when that comes out in a couple of years or something.

Heretic Machine

03-22-2010, 09:56 PM

Pale Ale

03-22-2010, 10:00 PM

Dark Age of Camelot - The PvP was fantastic and the large scale siege warfare is still the best to this day imo. I loved the fact it took a group of Trolls to carry the parts and materials needed to build a trebuchet and that it could be built just about anywhere and slowly moved.

You miss "turn off your particle effects and look at your feet" ? Or the battering ram that does nothing because you built it too far back? Your made of sterner stuff than I! :D

ClannerDelta

03-22-2010, 10:26 PM

You miss "turn off your particle effects and look at your feet" ? Or the battering ram that does nothing because you built it too far back? Your made of sterner stuff than I! :D

DAoC had a lot of flaws, will always have a place in my heart because I could make a giant stone troll that felled enemies with the power of song and dance!

Wilkz07

03-22-2010, 10:38 PM

Played:
Everquest 2
Warhammer Online
WoW
Age of Conan
Matrix Online
Star Wars Galaxies
City of Villains
Final Fantasy XI
EVE Online
Auto Assault
Tabula Rasa

Past a month:
WoW
Age of Conan
Matrix Online
City of Villains
Warhammer Online
Auto Assault
Tabula Rasa

Most of the 'past a month games' were due to purchasing a time card at the time of the full game purchase. I really enjoyed playing Warhammer and Auto Assault.

Doogie2K

03-23-2010, 01:32 AM

Solution: Don't raid :p I don't.

Well, that's the obvious solution, yes, but by that point, I'd become soured on the whole shooting match. I'm fine without, as it turns out. More time for everything.

CappinCanuck

03-23-2010, 02:07 AM

Tried a fair amount, maybe 15+ over the years. I think the one I enjoyed the most was DAoC. Followed by FFXI and maybe Age of Conan, I know... shocking.

J Arcane

03-23-2010, 02:35 AM

Well, I guess I can throw my weight in here, so in no particular order:

WoW: Big surprise here. WoW was the first MMO designed to be played by normal people instead of basement dwelling geeks with no jobs, and built by proper game designers who understood what the word "fun" meant. Unfortunately this all falls flat at the end with an endgame imported directly from EQ1 that still hasn't been fixed, and class balance driven largely by the forum whining of a single popular class. Play for the PvE, quit at cap until the next expac. That's the winning WoW strategy.

LOTRO: WoW done right. A bit slow in the beginning, but fun, with interesting classes that don't quite play into the standard cookie cutter MMO roles, and apparently an endgame that has heard of something other than raiding. Also, it's drop dead gorgeous, and a wonderful adventure into Tolkien's world.

UO: The original sandbox. Fun to fuck about with for a short time, but ultimately never feels worth the monthly fee when I could get the same experience, but with more depth, from an SP game. Still, I keep rebuying it now and again, just to potter around for a while until my free time runs out. Shame the new expansion made it totally unplayable.

EVE: Sandbox done right. Lots to do, gorgeous space to fly about in doing it, gorgeous interface to look at, fascinating depth. It's just so damn slow that it's not really a way to go if you don't have a lot of free time.

I've played a ridiculously huge number of other MMOs, but those are pretty much the ones that kept me the longest, and the ones that stand head and shoulders above everything else.

Pale Ale

03-23-2010, 03:03 AM

DAoC had a lot of flaws, will always have a place in my heart because I could make a giant stone troll that felled enemies with the power of song and dance shouting!

I think you misspoke, a the only trolls I know who had instruments were of destruction! ;)

Wibble

03-23-2010, 08:37 AM

That's still a grind and you're still progressing. It might be light and fast, but it's still the tried and true "Need moar exp to be better!" kind of set up. I get the feeling that he wanted something completely different. Maybe EvE's leveling fits his wants or maybe he wants something entirely new, but your situation is still grinding just like every other mmo.

I admit that the game still needs skill advancement but the difference between someone with 70% in their skills and 100% isn't very large and most skills are quite easy. The difference in this example was that I never saw the bone room as a grind. While I was there I saw many other people there trying to kill things, getting into mini-dramas and generally doing what they chose to do. In UO, if you wanted to go around collecting the best loot you became a Tamer and got yourself a dragon. A tamer was basically the best guy for defeating the higher monsters solo. But not many people became a tamer because while they would have had an easier time solo, they just wanted to mess around and challenge themselves. On the other hand, EVE's levelling system may be less hassle, but it will certainly take longer than almost any other MMO to get where you want to be and you will always be behind someone who started playing before you.

This happened in EQ too, the most grindtastic of MMOs. If people have never experienced this kind of thing in an MMO, then that is on them. Not the game's design. There is an appeal to just doing shit, but it's rarely enough on its own. You said it yourself "I was bored". Doing something different every once in a while does not mean that same situation is enough to build a game upon.

I have done a few similar things from boredom. One example was clearing Karazhan in WoW with two other people once the expansion hit. We didn't get much money but it was fun and felt far more epic than when you did the same place with ten people.
But when you have no levels then you never feel restricted to one area. Four players who just started can band together on UO and kill a pretty tough monster such as a Lich without needing to actively gain skill or grind. The most important part of making these decisions of what to do is they are your decisions. When you are told that your quest is to go grab 10 rat tails, then you go grab them and it feels like a grind. When you decide to get ten people together in farming clothes and pitchforks and try to defeat an entire castle of evil mages it does not.

So your example of how loot was unnecessary is that you had a badass fight centered around stealing someone's loot? It's a cool story, but it still centered around you wanting X item that was better than your items.

I wanted X item, sure, and it was worth about 15k at the time. But I didn't want it for the money, I wanted it because it would make him chase me. A lesser item would not make him spend 5 hours in a battle with me. I did sell the items but I never spent the money because there was simply not much I wanted. In the end I threw all my spare money away into a neon hair colour to look a bit more trustworthy when sneaking up on people :)

I mean one of my other guys was a warrior and I decided one day to totally change him. He lost his swords skill and gained archery, he lost another skill to gain magery and I made him into a pirate. This involved sailing the sea and finding people out there fishing and such and chasing them down while launching spells and arrows from my ship. My goal was of course to obtain their ship and I had much fun guiding their boat to shore and getting it dry docked before they could get back to it. But the ships were not worth much at all. I would spend a long time grabbing a ship that was worth just 4k (about 8 monster kills) just because I wanted it as a trophy on my guild's house wall.

A lot of games allow this kind of behaviour sure. As I said, I have done it in WoW before. And it can be argued that I could just do this in WoW and be content. But the difference is that WoW pushes you towards grinding, because on things like WoW gear DOES matter, level DOES matter and if you don't have enough of each then you cannot even do the fun things you want to do. In UO that Power weapon I stole would most likely mean he could kill a monster in about two less hits than he could with a normal weapon. It was more powerful, but any weapon found in a shop could do a similar job.

Hawkzombie

03-23-2010, 10:12 AM

Yeah, but you can't start a game as level 1 and do that stuff. So gear and level will always play a part in it.

J Arcane

03-23-2010, 11:28 AM

Yeah, but you can't start a game as level 1 and do that stuff. So gear and level will always play a part in it.
You'd be surprised what you can do right off the bat in UO compared to other games, if you've got some good gear. My character had the nice limited edition sword that came in the anniversary packs, and with it, I could already kill most things by myself.

Panthera

03-23-2010, 11:34 AM

You guys are making me want to finally give UO a try.

J Arcane

03-23-2010, 11:48 AM

You guys are making me want to finally give UO a try.
You can usually find copies of the 9th Anniversary edition for $10 or less, which is a great way to get in as it's got most of the expansions and the bonus stuff from the special edition code will give you a good head start.

It's cheap for a lark, but don't go in expecting anything resembling a directed play experience. There are "quests", of a kind, in the game now, but they're extremely primitive and randomly generated mostly, so they more or less just provide a little something extra to do for a reward now and then.

A search reveals that the awful Kingdom Reborn revamp has apparently been dumped, so it should actually be playable again. Previously it ran so poorly and lagged so badly that it was actually impossible to play.

Panthera

03-23-2010, 11:52 AM

If I can enjoy Dwarf Fortress' adventure mode, or hell even FFXI, I think I can handle a little non-directed gameplay. I'm most interested in exploring the world.

J Arcane

03-23-2010, 11:55 AM

If I can enjoy Dwarf Fortress' adventure mode, or hell even FFXI, I think I can handle a little non-directed gameplay. I'm most interested in exploring the world.
Then you'll probably get some fun out of it. Enough to be worth the low cost of entry for the first month at least.

Rakael

03-23-2010, 01:23 PM

I snagged the Champions Online free trial. So far it seems like a prettier City of Heroes. That isn't necessarily a bad thing, but the gameplay does tend to get stale rather fast.

Panthera

03-24-2010, 08:47 AM

J Arcane

03-24-2010, 12:50 PM

I snagged the Champions Online free trial. So far it seems like a prettier City of Heroes. That isn't necessarily a bad thing, but the gameplay does tend to get stale rather fast.

That's more or less what it is. They've tweaked the combat system, reduced the focus on instancing, and added a nemesis system you will probably never see because they deliberately broke the level/difficulty curve so there's a massive gap in XP in the levels right before you get one.

Gave the UO free trial a go last night with the classic client. I'm impressed so far. The starting equipment doesn't feel like trash, killing stuff doesn't feel like a grind, and it gives you a ton of freedom to make your own path. Took me a while to get used to the controls, but that's to be expected.

Yeah, the controls really are staggeringly awful, but I guess they are technically just a continuation of what they started with in Ultima7. The first couple times I tried UO I actually got pissed and quit because of the interface.

Wibble

03-24-2010, 02:15 PM

Gave the UO free trial a go last night with the classic client. I'm impressed so far. The starting equipment doesn't feel like trash, killing stuff doesn't feel like a grind, and it gives you a ton of freedom to make your own path. Took me a while to get used to the controls, but that's to be expected.

I am actually quite surprised that you are enjoying today's UO. Most people have played it for 5-6 years because it then got to a point where everything they loved about the game was ripped out, tendon by agonizing tendon.

I never thought today's UO could be fun to a new player. The downside is that Felucca is dead now and in Trammel (the starting world) does not let you attack anything or anyone you want.

That and since they added insurance the only thing a thief can steal is gold, gems and shreds of dignity. ^^

For me UO has become something that I will always remember, but I can never really get back. Just like Nox multiplayer :)

Panthera

03-24-2010, 02:30 PM

I am actually quite surprised that you are enjoying today's UO. Most people have played it for 5-6 years because it then got to a point where everything they loved about the game was ripped out, tendon by agonizing tendon.

I never thought today's UO could be fun to a new player. The downside is that Felucca is dead now and in Trammel (the starting world) does not let you attack anything or anyone you want.

That and since they added insurance the only thing a thief can steal is gold, gems and shreds of dignity. ^^

For me UO has become something that I will always remember, but I can never really get back. Just like Nox multiplayer :)

Oh, man. Nox. I totally forgot about that game.

I have no idea what it is they tore from the game, but coming straight from STO (and WoW before that) the freedom is like a breath of fresh air. I like the skills. I like that the equipment feels right, that there isn't an artificial and exaggerated progression. I even like how when you enter combat you move differently.

The bit about not being able to attack everything I'm not sure of, though. I accidentally double-clicked on a quest NPC while still in war mode and had a running fight all the way from Old Haven to New Haven. Took him a while to get un-pissed at me.

edit: Other than new players having a degree of protection, of course.

Narradisall

03-24-2010, 03:11 PM

Holy shit. Nox!

There's a game I'd long since forgotten. That had some hilarious make your own fun moments.

SilentScreams

03-24-2010, 03:20 PM

I only just found out that Jack was voiced by Seann William Scott. I never recognized the voice while I was playing.
Nox multiplayer was awesome though. Conjurer + Blink + Crossbow = win. Or a Warrior with a Staff of Numbness.

Panthera

03-24-2010, 11:30 PM

The bit about not being able to attack everything I'm not sure of, though. I accidentally double-clicked on a quest NPC while still in war mode and had a running fight all the way from Old Haven to New Haven. Took him a while to get un-pissed at me.

edit: Other than new players having a degree of protection, of course.

Ah, okay, I did some reading on Trammel and now I understand.

Akela

03-30-2010, 03:50 PM

Too many to list. Some are not worth mentioning for the reason of embarasment - enjoyment derived per unit time wasted ratio is entirely too low.

Now favorites? In the particular order:

DAoC - Awesome. Most favorite to date. Multiple reasons - mostly the...awesomeness.
Shadowbane - "Here, guys: Have these immensely custimizable classes and entirely empty world with geography unique from server to server...Claim, build, steal, defend and kill to your hearts content. Hold whatever you are strong enough to hold." Awesome formula. Entirely underused. Minimal hand-holding. Shadowbane 2 with good graphics engine and net code that can support the gameplay? Done. I'd be there before you can say "Daddy's home, biatches!"
WAR - DAoC 1.5. Liked it for the same reasons I liked DAoC...but for the notable lack of H2H Troll Savages.

nixpayn

04-08-2010, 09:28 AM

Lets seeeeeee...

Aion (3 mths)
Anarchy Online (4mths)
Asheron's Call (4 mths)
Dark Age of Camelot (5mths)
Dungeons & Dragons Online (2 mths)
Dungeon Runners (3 mths)
Everquest (6 years...)
Everquest 2 (6 months)
Final Fantasy XI (8 months)
Guild Wars (4 months)
Lineage 2 (3 months)
Runes of Magic (6 months - best free one imho)
Saga of Ryzom (3 months)
Ultima Online (1 yr)
Warhammer Online (5 months)
World of Warcraft (3 years on / off - mostly off)

and a dozen or so korean ones for a few weeks at a time. Sword of the New world gets points for being kinda different. The music was painful tho.

x Returner x

04-08-2010, 09:34 AM

Eve Online (3 years on/off on right now)
Aion (5 months still on)
Lineage 2 (5 years on/off mostly on)
DaOc (1 month)
Everquest (1 day no joke)
D&D Online (1 month)
Everquest 2 (1 month)
Final Fantasy (6 months)
WoW (3 months)
Warhammer Online (3 months)
Star Trek Online (1 week)

Stoke

04-09-2010, 07:25 PM

Everquest ~ 9 years with a couple 2-3 month breaks near the end.
Everquest 2 ~2 years
Final Fantasy XI ~ 2 years on and off. Not enough time for it when I got it and not enough people now to start again.
Guild Wars ~ 6 months Did all the PvE I could and didn't care for PvP
World of Warcraft ~ 1 week, couldn't even make it past the free month
Age of Conan ~ 3 months, loved the game but the game hated me
Eve Online ~ 4 months, fun but I don't have the time it requires
Earth and Beyond Online ~ 3 months Hour long travel times without any interaction from the user doesn't fly with me. Seriously, you'd click your destination and go on auto pilot.
Warhammer Online ~ 2 months. So fun until you run out of PvE content at 20-25
Lineage 2 ~ 1 month
Champions Online ~ 1 month Pretty fun but got old fast.
Dungeons and Dragons ~ 1 month
Vanguard ~ 1 month
Lord of the Rings Online ~ 1 month

SilentScreams

04-09-2010, 08:26 PM

Okay, here's a question for all you long time EQ players since I'm noticing a lot of you.

In general, the original EQ seems to have had most people playing for much longer than EQ2, and not just because it's been out longer.
Is that because EQ2 is worse, or simply because there is more choice in MMOs these days? Or is it because EQ was the first MMO for a lot of people, and like UO was for me, the first one is always the best.

J Arcane

04-09-2010, 08:31 PM

EQ2 just isn't that great compared to what else was out there by that point. If you've only ever played EQ1, sure, it's a hell of an upgrade, but mostly, it sucks. And it is EXCEEDINGLY ridiculous when it comes to the system requirements. It can still put a drain on machines like 5 years newer than it.

It's inaccessible, slow, boring, and just plain not that good. I think SOE assumed they could just pump out something a little bit prettier and with a few bonus features, and everyone would migrate right away, but instead they all wound up going to WoW.

Stoke

04-09-2010, 08:59 PM

I think the problem for me was I was still enamored with the original. I didn't really want a new MMO, what I wanted was the illusion of a brand new Everquest. I wanted a prettier version of the original with updated mechanics like the other MMOs of the day had. EQ2 was good in it's own right but it just couldn't live up to the nostalgia of the early EQ days that I wanted to re-experience. Even my best memories from EQ2 aren't really part of the game at all but my experiences in the beta. I got in extremely early due to the relationship I had with the developers from playing on EQ's Test servers and I was thrown in there with the "celebrities" of EQ who were there to actually balance a lot of the gameplay. It just blew my mind to be in there and talking with people who ran all the class forums/tradeskill guide websites/etc. Without having played EQ for so long stuff like that wouldn't have had any impact at all and I probably would have had a much worse view of the game overall.

Unlike J Arcane I actually had no problems running it when it came out. And it's gotten even better now. A lot of gameplay changes have occured and it's not as convoluted as it used to be. I'd rank it near the top of currently running MMOs but I hate most of the WoW style MMOs.

I realize this post is oddly written but I've rewritten this several times now trying to figure out just what went wrong with EQ2 for me so this is what you guys are getting. :p

ClannerDelta

04-09-2010, 10:24 PM

I've gone back and played EQ2 twice after I left initially. I think once was with Nura and the second was with Melbatoast (I think) and I honestly can't remember the game. With the exception of one thing. The Inquisitor was my favorite healing class until the Bear Shaman from AoC came out. So there's that. It doesn't bode well when I can't remember anything at all though.

I still remember tons of shit from EQ1.
"2 bags of stuff at torch 3!"
"lol a snake just kicked me."
"Dvinn to zone!"
The constantly dodging trains in Karnor's Castle or Unrest Manor.
The Plane of Mischief and all the god awful "jokes" that zone had for raiders.
Lower Guk and Old Cazic Thule.
Working so damn hard to get my purple Cleric armor from Velius and my Epic weapon for the clicky rez.

And a hundred other memories. I admit this is probably because it was my first MMO. So it might be that EQ2 was just that, more EQ, and that the formula simply wasn't good enough anymore. Either way, EQ was memorable to me and EQ2 was not.