Well it was bound to happen [Archive]

ShivaX

03-05-2010, 03:03 AM

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100305/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/us_pentagon_metro_shooting

A gunman coolly drew a weapon from his pocket and opened fire at a security checkpoint into the Pentagon on Thursday in a point-blank attack that wounded two police officers before the suspect was fatally shot.

The two officers suffered grazing wounds and were being treated in a hospital, said Richard Keevill, chief of Pentagon police. The shooter, identified as John Patrick Bedell, 36, of Hollister, Calif., died hours after being admitted to a hospital in critical condition, authorities said. They had no motive for the shooting.

There were signs, however, that Bedell may have harbored resentment for the military and had doubts about the facts behind the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks.

Honestly, I expected the Tea Party folks to have one go first, not the Truthers.

Voodoo

03-05-2010, 06:51 AM

Honestly, I expected the Tea Party folks to have one go first, not the Truthers.

Why do you think so?

MachEnergy

03-05-2010, 06:54 AM

Why do you think so?

My guess would be the amount of violent and hateful protest signs they bring to their rallies. But I don't want to answer for Shiva; this is just my guess.

03-05-2010, 07:03 AM

My guess would be the amount of violent and hateful protest signs they bring to their rallies.
That would be an odd basis, since there isn't exactly a shortage of those at Truther rallies.

I feel incredibly dirty saying anything nice about the Truthers at all, but I feel like someone has to point it out: it's not a good idea to extrapolate one crazy and evil person's actions to the entire group to which he belongs. As I said (http://www.colonyofgamers.com/cogforums/showpost.php?p=491072&postcount=21) after the Austin plane crash, these people are going to kill for their own fucked-up reasons that have nothing to do with politics. They simply choose a political cover so they can lie to themselves and the world about their own contemptible worthlessness. Let's not give this trash the satisfaction of pretending their politics were actually what drove them to kill.

Voodoo

03-05-2010, 07:04 AM

My guess would be the amount of violent and hateful protest signs they bring to their rallies. But I don't want to answer for Shiva; this is just my guess.

Hmm... Those signs are definitely present but do not make for the majority of signs present. This is after attending 6 of them personally and taking very good video of all of them. Hell, I was even present at the 9/12/09 one in DC and the signs you described were in the far minority. Watching on TV though it would seem as if they were all over the place. But, that's sensationalism for ya...

Narradisall

03-05-2010, 07:33 AM

Lucky he was a shitty shot then I guess.

Vigil80

03-05-2010, 08:04 AM

Well said, Ox, you're absolutely right.

Let's be thankful that he only caused (what seems to me) minimal damage on his way to flaring out.

NoName

03-05-2010, 08:11 AM

Lucky he was a shitty shot then I guess.

Haha, this was my though. He completely got the jump on the officers, and while it sucks two of them got shot they are going to be fine.

Crowe

03-05-2010, 08:15 AM

That was my first reaction also...the idiot managed to fire the opening salvo and couln't even kill anyone. It's fantastic that he didn't kill anyone ofcourse.

Mattism

03-05-2010, 08:22 AM

If the guards had not had on bullet proof vest it might have turned out different.

Panthera

03-05-2010, 08:55 AM

That was my first reaction also...the idiot managed to fire the opening salvo and couln't even kill anyone. It's fantastic that he didn't kill anyone ofcourse.

He hit two of them. I don't think killing or not killing is a matter of marksmanship when you're firing on moving targets - I'm assuming they started to move as soon as he drew the weapon. You aim for the center of mass and hope for the best. It's practically a roll of the dice.

Hawkzombie

03-05-2010, 09:02 AM

He hit two of them. I don't think killing or not killing is a matter of marksmanship when you're firing on moving targets - I'm assuming they started to move as soon as he drew the weapon. You aim for the center of mass and hope for the best. It's practically a roll of the dice.

And he rolled 5's to their 20s.

Kielaran

03-05-2010, 11:15 AM

I'm glad I wasn't the only one to think that he must have been a bad shot.

Narradisall

03-05-2010, 12:08 PM

If the guards had not had on bullet proof vest it might have turned out different.

Well I would have gone for the head, logic would tell me security at the motherfucking pentagon would be wearing bullet proof vests.

I think logic had long since abandoned this guys ship though.

I'm glad the guys are fine though. Also nice I wasn't the only one that thought the poor shot was a good thing first. :p

Serapth

03-05-2010, 02:10 PM

Frankly, Obama has lasted longer than I expected. Really, all it takes is one nutjob with a bit of a brain and a willingness to die, to take him out. I am actually kinda proud of you Americans for not stepping up! ;)

That said, these fringe groups really are fanning the flames. I would not sleep well if I was him. Frankly, I just don't fathom why he would ever actually want that job.

ShivaX

03-05-2010, 02:55 PM

Why do you think so?

Well one of the hallmarks of the whole Tea Party movement seems to be revolution. Truthers are more of your typical conspiracy theory nuts. The gubment does stuff in secret, blah, blah. Tea Party is more along the lines of the gubment is full of Nazis and we need to overthrow them. Plus Tea Partiers tend to be Second Amendment guys who are all about stockpiling guns and whatnot while the Truthers are more like stoners and hippies who don't have a clue. Plus the Tea Party has a lot more public figureheads inciting the masses. The Truthers had Rosie O'Donnell. I'm pretty sure she couldn't motivate anyone to do much of anything.

Then again, I guess the Tea Party still has a lot of years to go before someone snaps.

Voodoo

03-05-2010, 04:21 PM

Well one of the hallmarks of the whole Tea Party movement seems to be revolution. Truthers are more of your typical conspiracy theory nuts. The gubment does stuff in secret, blah, blah. Tea Party is more along the lines of the gubment is full of Nazis and we need to overthrow them. Plus Tea Partiers tend to be Second Amendment guys who are all about stockpiling guns and whatnot while the Truthers are more like stoners and hippies who don't have a clue. Plus the Tea Party has a lot more public figureheads inciting the masses. The Truthers had Rosie O'Donnell. I'm pretty sure she couldn't motivate anyone to do much of anything.

Then again, I guess the Tea Party still has a lot of years to go before someone snaps.

Revolution is a Tea Party hallmark? That's news to me. Have you been to one of the parties or are you learning this from what news has to say about the movement? I've been to 6 of the 'parties' including the one in DC on 9/12. The message was so mixed within the group that it seemed if you had a grievance against the Feds you could just pop a sign up and start marching along; no matter how fallacious it was.

Tea Partiers aren't just 2nd Amendment guys and gals. They're for the entire Constitution but are actually more pushing the 10th Amendment. Certainly there are fringe groups that have attached to the movement with their various slogans (even the Truthers have been trying to latch on as well as the Birthers) but that is with any movement. When the Anti-Bush movements were in full swing I certainly remember the hardcore Anarchists showing up. This didn't mean that the entire Anti-Bush movement was full of Anarchists. See how that works?

Also, Sarah Palin is trying her best to latch on to the movement. Lucky for us we aren't all one collective movement. She's quite the Ra-Tard.

Voodoo

03-05-2010, 04:37 PM

Wasson_

03-05-2010, 04:39 PM

What a fucking asshole. I'm elated to hear his was the only fatality.

ShivaX

03-05-2010, 06:24 PM

Revolution is a Tea Party hallmark? That's news to me. Have you been to one of the parties or are you learning this from what news has to say about the movement?

If by 'the news' you mean people speaking at the conventions who are talking...

And no I'm not going to a Tea Party to see whats out there. I'm also not going to a Truther rally, an anti-Afghan war rally, a Nazi rally or anything else on the off chance that some of the people there might have good ideas.

Widgetcraft

03-05-2010, 06:42 PM

Revolution is a Tea Party hallmark?

Yeah, nothing about the name would suggest that at all.

Voodoo

03-05-2010, 07:06 PM

If by 'the news' you mean people speaking at the conventions who are talking...

And no I'm not going to a Tea Party to see whats out there. I'm also not going to a Truther rally, an anti-Afghan war rally, a Nazi rally or anything else on the off chance that some of the people there might have good ideas.

While I haven't been to either a Truther nor Nazi rally (definitely not interested in any facade of those), I have been to both an Anti-Afghan war rally and several Tea Parties (as I said). They've been very interesting, especially when you see what is on the ground versus how it is covered. Each media outlet covers it in a different sort of spin to further their own agenda. It is unfortunate but I suppose that is the way of the beast.

Also not sure why you'd lump Tea Partiers and Anti-Afghan war rallies in with Nazi and Truther rallies. The first two are definitely quite unlike the last two. Modern Nazis are pretty nasty people and Truthers (as well as Birthers) are quite off the deep end. When I was at the Tea Parties or at the Anti-War rallies I seldom came across people that were raging lunitics. They were certainly there (Anarchists, Truthers & Birthers) as these sorts of things attack those sorts of people. I definitely wouldn't call them representative of the whole.

In regards to the conventions... Well, there's been only 1 convention (where approximately 600 people attended, LOL) and it was a piece of shit. It was absolutely unrepresentative of many of the smaller TP chapters and there's been quite a lot of 'in-fighting' about what went down. The typical TP group is a mix of Republicans, Democrats and Independants along with hardcore religious types & absolute Atheists. What happened at that convention was an atrocity and isn't representative of the typical local TP group (at least around here).

In politics there are always those that will attempt to take a movement like this for their own personal gain. Glenn Beck, for example, has been organizing his own Tea Party like organization called the 9/12ers. Unfortunately it is pretty right leaning and doesn't cover the ideologies that the typical TP group has been attracting.

Voodoo

03-05-2010, 07:09 PM

Yeah, nothing about the name would suggest that at all.

I believe that would be called a quib. Definitely made me laugh, thank you. Yes, it certainly is named Tea Party and the name is in reference to what happened in Boston. Unfortunately it is more of a resistance movement (like the original) rather than a revolution movement. I'd agree that resistance is a hallmark while I disagree that revolution is one.

ShivaX

03-05-2010, 07:48 PM

In regards to the conventions... Well, there's been only 1 convention (where approximately 600 people attended, LOL) and it was a piece of shit. It was absolutely unrepresentative of many of the smaller TP chapters and there's been quite a lot of 'in-fighting' about what went down. The typical TP group is a mix of Republicans, Democrats and Independants along with hardcore religious types & absolute Atheists. What happened at that convention was an atrocity and isn't representative of the typical local TP group (at least around here).

While that might be true on the local level or whatever, on the national level its very much a far-right movement. Its not like they're holding these things around here much and I'm not going to go even if they did. I think the premise behind the whole movement is fundamentally flawed. "No taxation without representation" doesn't mean "No taxes cause my guy lost, therefore I'm not represented."

Voodoo

03-05-2010, 08:36 PM

While that might be true on the local level or whatever, on the national level its very much a far-right movement. Its not like they're holding these things around here much and I'm not going to go even if they did. I think the premise behind the whole movement is fundamentally flawed. "No taxation without representation" doesn't mean "No taxes cause my guy lost, therefore I'm not represented."

Yeah that's pretty spot on about how it appears on the national level. It is unfortunate because it is overshadowing the differences that many local level groups have with this paradigm. Perhaps these groups that are such should look to rename themselves as something else. We've had a few discussions about this very topic but so far it has been very difficult to find a name or what-have-you that describes our fairly complex group. :|

03-06-2010, 04:57 AM

I think the premise behind the whole movement is fundamentally flawed. "No taxation without representation" doesn't mean "No taxes cause my guy lost, therefore I'm not represented."
Although that was one of the slogans of the original Boston Tea Party, I haven't actually seen any of the modern Tea Partiers using that slogan (I'm sure there are some examples, but it doesn't appear to be common). Probably for exactly the reason you point out: it's not really applicable. TEA is supposedly an acronym for "Taxed Enough Already," and while they deliberately evoke the earlier tax protest, I don't think they are drawing quite as direct a parallel as you do.

EDIT: I googled "tea party representation" to see what I'd get. After excluding references to the original Boston Tea Party, here's what I got:
A left-wing (http://www.truthout.org/tea-party-20-no-representation-without-taxation57022) article claiming that it's really leftists who are disenfranchised.

A reference (http://www.myfoxchicago.com/dpp/news/TeaParty) to the original Tea Party in a Fox News report on the modern movement. None of the actual Tea Partiers are quoted as endorsing the slogan.

A critique (http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3857999,00.html) of the modern movement on your grounds, although it provides no evidence that any actual Tea Partier has ever even uttered the words "taxation without representation."

An article (http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/04/09/modern-day-tea-parties-taxpayers-chance-scream-better-representation/) which quotes: "It's not exactly taxation without representation. It's more taxation with inadequate representation," said Michael DePrimo, with the American Family Association, which is helping promote the events.

The Texas Tea Party (http://www.texasteaparty.net/), which does use the slogan.

Yet another (http://www.humblelibertarian.com/2009/03/2009-american-tea-party-no-taxation.html) example of the critique.

So on this evidence, I am tentatively concluding that only the Texas Tea Party actually endorses the slogan. For the rest, it's people seeking to discredit the Tea Party movement by arguing against a strawman.

ShivaX

03-06-2010, 02:10 PM

Voodoo

03-06-2010, 02:19 PM

The very reason they chose the name "Tea Party" was because of that slogan.

Otherwise it doesn't even make sense.

Sure some may have changed from that when they realized it didn't make sense to use it, but its where it all originated from.

I've seen it said dozens of times at Tea Party rallies, to the point it became common knowledge by everyone. Now you're saying that it never happened and everyone made it up or something. I'm not going to scour Fox News, CNN and Youtube for examples, especially since those examples can then just be written off as "outliers" or the like.

I've been to many and I've seldom seen that slogan. It is present on signs sometimes but nothing on an official capacity. Which at the time, and now, I think is a bit odd. It would appear that the movement is incorrectly named. At least 9/12ers makes sense.

National Kato

03-06-2010, 03:12 PM

Voodoo, I've seen many more representations of the Gadsden Flag, with its slogan of 'Don't Tread On Me' and the rattlesnake depiction, at Tea Party events than the motto of the original Boston Tea Party. Do your experiences confirm this?

Voodoo

03-06-2010, 03:31 PM

ShivaX

03-06-2010, 04:37 PM

I've been to many and I've seldom seen that slogan. It is present on signs sometimes but nothing on an official capacity. Which at the time, and now, I think is a bit odd. It would appear that the movement is incorrectly named. At least 9/12ers makes sense.

9/12 never made sense to me just because on 9/12 the nation was scared shitless. Not exactly a state I want to go back to.

I'll admit the whole Dont Tread on Me thing has seen a lot of play and makes more sense. The whole movement still bugs me just because you didn't hear a peep until Obama got elected. Then suddenly theres a huge issue. Everything was fine when Bush decided to unbalance the budget, but now that hes out of office everyone wants Obama to make it like it was under Clinton while the economy is in free fall.

Vigil80

03-06-2010, 05:42 PM

To be fair, he did get folks' hopes up pretty high. Built his entire campaign on it, as a matter of fact.
President Obama signed legislation to jumpstart our economy, the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act, less than a month after his inauguration. The plan will save or create 3.5 million new jobs, make critical investments in our infrastructure and give 95 percent of working Americans a tax cut.

ShivaX

03-06-2010, 08:13 PM

To be fair, he did get folks' hopes up pretty high. Built his entire campaign on it, as a matter of fact.

Yeah but they're opposed to spending. He said he'd be spending. Its not like these guys voted for him and feel betrayed. They were against him before he even ran. They SHOULD have been against Bush, and maybe they were, but they didn't say shit until Obama won the election. If this was such a huge deal how come they weren't out there while McCain and Obama were debating and whatnot?

Oh and those things you're quoting Obama for are things people are complaining about. Specficially they see infrastructure as pork. Because who needs roads in the Midwest? I don't live there I live in South Carolina. SOCIALISM!

Vigil80

03-06-2010, 09:52 PM

That's some pretty deep generalizing you've got going on there...

But this isn't really the thread for this discussion, anyway. Guy did something stupid, paid for it with minimal collateral damage, all's well that ends well.

03-07-2010, 08:30 AM

The very reason they chose the name "Tea Party" was because of that slogan.
Any evidence for this assertion? I offered an alternative explanation (that it was meant to echo the tax protest connotations without endorsing the specific slogan), and when someone declares I'm factually wrong, I usually appreciate some sort of evidence.

On a lighter note: anyone else amused that a thread ostensibly about a Truther attacking the Pentagon instantly became a discussion about how retarded and violent the Tea Party is?

Vigil80

03-07-2010, 11:02 AM

On a lighter note: anyone else amused that a thread ostensibly about a Truther attacking the Pentagon instantly became a discussion about how retarded and violent the Tea Party is?
You... are a wise man. ;)

Generation ABXY

03-07-2010, 12:43 PM

txshurricane

03-11-2010, 03:09 PM

They SHOULD have been against Bush, and maybe they were, but they didn't say shit until Obama won the election. If this was such a huge deal how come they weren't out there while McCain and Obama were debating and whatnot?
I'm going to avoid doing any research on this and make this statement in direct regard to my point of view from that time period, so if I sound completely oblivious...don't be surprised:

It seems to me that a lot of Americans have begun to truly discover their political opinions in the last five years. For some, it takes a charismatic black man running for president. For others, it takes an administration basically triplicating the previous administration's horrible mistakes (which may have been overlooked the first time around due to bias).

I never felt a reason to be vocal or active at all until the last couple of years, because face it: the country has been pretty well suited to people like me almost my entire life (conservative, traditional Christian). After seven years of adolescent bliss, the Federal Bailout was pretty much the point at which I formed a political opinion. The change in volume of dissenting voices depends on when people start caring.

To be fair, many people who vehemently hated Bush for the Iraq war and protested on the freeway overpasses - daily - are nowhere to be seen now, despite a complete lack of meaningful progress in withdrawing troops from the middle east. In fact, I can't think of anything that has measurably improved about our nation since 2008,. Yet while the Tea Party protests the same issues they once let slide...the anti-war groups are sitting back whereas they once stood in the blistering sun all day in protest.

I don't think it's fair to criticize someone for letting the "Black Flower grow where it may". Everyone's bound to get complacent just because their leader of choice is in office...no matter how well or poorly that leader performs. That's just the nature of a lot of people, and the only ones unaffected are the 100% paranoid or those who don't let any of it bother them and take full responsibility for themselves in any environment.

Amused? Yes. Surprised? No. :p
Not at all surprised, here, either.

MachEnergy

03-26-2010, 12:46 PM

National Kato

03-26-2010, 01:09 PM

Death threats are nothing new. Bricks through windows? A bit of an escalation. The guy who posted Rep. Tom Perriello's address on Facebook, only to find out it was Pereiello's brother's address after someone cut the propane gas line at his house (http://crooksandliars.com/john-amato/rep-tom-perriello-s-d-va-brothers-gas-l), and then said, "Collateral damage?"

Shit's getting serious. Good thing these clowns will get a full taste of 'government intrusion' when the FBI comes knocking.

J Arcane

03-26-2010, 01:12 PM

Then you have the news story of the politician who's office was fired upon being in the news the same day as Sarah Palin's tweet about not retreating but instead reloading. Whether or not these stories are out of context, or metaphors are being misread, this shit is getting undeniably hostile.

If you're talking about Eric Cantor's claim, police are saying it's apparently a load of bullshit. (http://trueslant.com/davidknowles/2010/03/26/police-cantors-office-wasnt-a-target-of-violence/)

Siraris

03-26-2010, 01:16 PM

http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2010/03/protesters-bring-coffin-to-rep-carnahans-home.php

This is really getting out of hand. There's death threats to congressmen and representative being made. Then you have the news story of the politician who's office was fired upon being in the news the same day as Sarah Palin's tweet about not retreating but instead reloading. Whether or not these stories are out of context, or metaphors are being misread, this shit is getting undeniably hostile.

I believe the office that was fired upon (Eric Cantor's) was not necessarily related to the hc bill, and more of a coincidence. I heard that the police there determined that someone fired a shot into the air (for an unknown reason) and when the bullet was coming back down to earth, it happened to break the window of one of the office building.

Here's the story from Fox (http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/03/26/bullet-struck-cantors-office-appears-randomly-fired/)

But most of the other behavior is really unnecessary, but I guess we should expect it in this kind of atmosphere. I do agree with some of the politicians that this has been going on for a year, and there has been a lot of vitriol around the whole process.

National Kato

03-26-2010, 01:19 PM

Didn't stop Cantor from blaming it all on Democrats, when he said they were fanning the flames by reporting the attacks on their offices as related to the HCR bill.

Serapth

03-26-2010, 01:33 PM

Shit's getting serious. Good thing these clowns will get a full taste of 'government intrusion' when the FBI comes knocking.

Except they are swamped.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/barackobama/5967942/Barack-Obama-faces-30-death-threats-a-day-stretching-US-Secret-Service.html

US President Barack Obama is the target of more than 30 potential death threats a day and is being protected by an increasingly over-stretched and under-resourced Secret Service, according to a new book.

And this was published back in August, well before the wackos really hit their stride. I really do wonder how much of this animosity is because of racism. I know from my experiences in the far North ( Michigan UP ) and South ( Texas, Dallas area ), your is by no means a post-racial society.

I really don't give a fuck how judgmental it sounds, I believe a good chunk of these truthers/tea partiers are just racists by any other name. Again, simply my opinion.

Narradisall

03-27-2010, 05:09 AM

Didn't I read someone posted the address of all the 30 congressmen?

I don't recall the right wing (well the crazy ones) being this openly hostile the last time you guys had a democratic government.

muddi900

03-27-2010, 06:15 AM

IIRC, Hilary Clinton campaigned for healthcare reform during her husbands government, and the same thing happened to her, to a lesser extent though. Google-dive yourselves!

Considering that, why is anybody surprised by this crap? It also puts a gigantic question mark on the political ability of everyone who thought this should be the first issue a new administration of a country severely divided to the point of hostility. It is very easy to rile up some idiots on something this, and anybody with any sense of history should have seen this coming.

As far death threats to the POTUS go, Obama's numbers are quite normal.