Welp, there it is. Splinter Cell: Conviction has Ubi's wonderful new DRM

[Smoof]

http://ve3d.ign.com/articles/news/53407/Tom-Clancys-Splinter-Cell-Conviction-PC-System-Requirements-Revealed

So much for that game.

[Dukefrukem]

I can't really be that annoyed... maybe back in 1996 I could be when I had dial-up. My computer is always connected to the internet...

[Narradisall]

I can't really be that annoyed... maybe back in 1996 I could be when I had dial-up. My computer is always connected to the internet...

It's more the 'lose connection for 4 seconds or more and lose all your saved progress' that gets me. My wireless is pretty solid nowdays and never drops, but it used to occassionally on my old router. Not often for more than several seconds, so in a MP game of whatever, I'd lag but we're be back to playing once my connection recovered.

I'd hate to be playing single player and hadn't saved for an hour or so for it to suddenly kick me out the game.

[Dukefrukem]

Oh fer sure. If i lose connection for whatever reason and lose my game progress... I'm gonna be pissed.

[hunterx280]

I'll be getting this on the 360. So much for that decision.

[Hotcod]

I can't really be that annoyed

I'm gonna be pissed.

You might also want to note this will happen if ubisoft severs go down either by mistake or for maintenance. The whole thing is idiotic and while I pretty much always connected to the internet I do not want to have to have that connection tied to my ability to play my single player games.

[LongStepMantis]

I'm waiting for the inevitable day when they shut down the auth. server(s).
Given that multiple games are going to be using it I'm not suggesting it will be like EA's server kills, but what if Ubi gets bought out or goes under in a year or two? Will they release a patch that removes the check, or simply let you hang onto your single-player game that is forever unplayable?

Maybe you could crack it to get rid of the check, but then we're right back at "why was it there anyway?" if you have to use a somewhat illegal method to play a game you bought? This whole thing is retarded.

[Narradisall]

I'd hope if something happened to them or the servers they would unpatch the check.

[Kelegacy]

If I owned a copy of these games and the pirated version was better than my retail copy, I'd download a pirate version. Ubi still gets money, and I get the DRM free version.

Then the argument arises--why buy the game at all? Ubi drives enough people to download a crack or pirate image and suddenly they create a slew of pirates. They could potentially create a slope so slippery paying customers fall off into the pirate-ridden waters for future games.

[roboninja]

My game buying decisions keep getting easier and easier.

[Dukefrukem]

You might also want to note this will happen if ubisoft severs go down either by mistake or for maintenance. The whole thing is idiotic and while I pretty much always connected to the internet I do not want to have to have that connection tied to my ability to play my single player games.

I suppose... I have never experienced anything like this before so I guess I won't worry about it until it happens to me. But once it does happen.. yeh game over man.

[Ravenlock]

Yup, not buying this one anymore either. Sorry, Ubi, but I'm not going to support this. 360 Gamefly rental to check it out, maybe.

[kyrieee]

Well, my internet has been disconnecting for a minute or two a couple of times per day for the last month now so I wouldn't be able to play it

[Expugnare]

My game pirating decisions keep getting easier and easier.

Edited to reflect my opinions.

[Shadowstorm]

I can't really be that annoyed... maybe back in 1996 I could be when I had dial-up. My computer is always connected to the internet...

I really wonder when people are going to stop being so passive about this bullshit.

"Oh, it doesn't effect me, I'll still be picking it up."

[Hawkzombie]

I really wonder when people are going to stop being so passive about this bullshit.

"Oh, it doesn't effect me, I'll still be picking it up."

lol, I got that feeling as well. I mean, it's fine to not really care, but this affects a LOT more than you can imagine. This is just the tip of the iceberg. What happens if this spreads to other companies? And what happens when the servers have maintenance? Or die completely? Are all my cloud games going to be properly backed up, or am I gonna lose all that progress? I dunno...I think they get away with it because of that exact attitude 'Well, since it doesn't affect me, why should I care? And I guess when it eventually does, I'll be upset' but by then it's too late to really do anything about it.

In either case, I was looking forward to this (Always a fan of Michael Irons-er, Sam) but now it's a no buy from me unless they remove the stupid DRM. I'm making a decision with my wallet. I was gonna get it on the 360 anyway, but the principal of the matter remains.

[Ravenlock]

Well hang on, let's be honest with ourselves, none of those issues are new. The "what if the servers go down someday?" question applies just as much with Steam (maybe moreso, since at least with these Ubi games you can have the physical media and they could issue a small patch to fix the server requirement), but we've happily lived with that for years.

I agree that requiring a constant 'net connection for a single player game is totally unreasonable, and I'm not going to buy these games that are requiring it, but it would be pretty hypocritical of me to pretend I have any problem relying on a company's servers staying up after giving hundreds of dollars to Steam for games that I'm 100% dependent on their servers to be able to download, install, patch and play.

[Adam Blue]

Well hang on, let's be honest with ourselves, none of those issues are new. The "what if the servers go down someday?" question applies just as much with Steam (maybe moreso, since at least with these Ubi games you can have the physical media and they could issue a small patch to fix the server requirement), but we've happily lived with that for years.

I agree that requiring a constant 'net connection for a single player game is totally unreasonable, and I'm not going to buy these games that are requiring it, but it would be pretty hypocritical of me to pretend I have any problem relying on a company's servers staying up after giving hundreds of dollars to Steam for games that I'm 100% dependent on their servers to be able to download, install, patch and play.

Exactly. And remember, other games have had similar crap when first released but eventually get patched. Name one game you can no longer play because of DRM? I have yet to hear anyone take on my argument that I've brought up in these threads. It's just QQ.

[LongStepMantis]

Well hang on, let's be honest with ourselves, none of those issues are new. The "what if the servers go down someday?" question applies just as much with Steam (maybe moreso, since at least with these Ubi games you can have the physical media and they could issue a small patch to fix the server requirement), but we've happily lived with that for years.

I'll concede it isn't the end of the world, but I can at least stand by my views in light of your argument. See, I don't use Steam either, and for that reason.

I know, I'm a rare specimen. A PC Gamer who doesn't use Steam. :p

[Hotcod]

I've never made the argument that if they take the servers down you are screwed since they will likely just send out a patch that removes that problem... same thing with steam. But this DRM is idiotic enough as a live system that you really don't need to make that argument in the first place.

[Adam Blue]

I've never made the argument that if they take the servers down you are screwed since they will likely just send out a patch that removes that problem... same thing with steam. But this DRM is idiotic enough as a live system that you really don't need to make that argument in the first place.

The argument is that this will get patched too.

[Kelegacy]

That's not the argument I care about. Having to be connected to the net to save your damn game is the issue for me. Having to be connected at all isn't a big deal for ME, but I understand the issue it could be for others who actually want to buy the game and don't have internet access. Or GOOD internet access.

In a singleplayer game I think I should be able to play my game even if TimeWarner is down or getting wonky. If my power is on, I should be able to play it.

[Seika]

If you buy this, good luck trying to play it when their servers are getting ddos at launch. ;)

[Hotcod]

The argument is that this will get patched too.

Saleman: Look, we have to break your legs so you can't get to the post box to send a copy of the product to your freinds

Guy 1: I don't know, that sounds kind of stupid.

Guy 2: It's ok they'll likely let your legs heal up and might not come around and break them again... maybe.

Any argument to try and validate the DRM by saying they may remove it once "the pirates have all brought the game 'cus they couldn't crack it" is idiotic. If it happens, great, I may even pick up the game on a steam sale at that point but it's only if let alone when that happens that it changes anything.

Buying the game when it comes out gets you shackled to the most monumentally stupid DRM system ever that has a damming effect on how you play the game each and ever time you play it. We are not talking about a diskcheck or a one off activation we are talking about losing progress in the game and then being unable to play it because ubisoft needs to tinker with the servers.

Even if they promised to strip that part of there DRM out after 6 months it still means 6 moths of them kicking you in the nuts for having the audacity to buy there game.

A point on saved games, you can have them saved locally as well as on the cloud (as far as i understand it) but if the servers are down you can't start or play the game anyway so it's irrelevant to be worried about them in that regard.

[Adam Blue]

The thing is, they've already been doing this. There's not a game out there with dead-end DRM that hasn't been patched (given the time).

I'm just going by what's actually occurring.

[Hotcod]

Look until they patched it they haven't and while they haven't if you buy the game you are subjected to hell to play it. If you are suggesting people wait until the patch to buy the game then do so but if you are saying it's ok for the DRM to be in place at all because they will patch it out, well, I've already explained why it's stupid and flawed argument and I have no idea how to make that any more clear.

[Telefrog]

The thing is, they've already been doing this. There's not a game out there with dead-end DRM that hasn't been patched (given the time).

I'm just going by what's actually occurring.

No, you're not. You're extrapolating using your (limited) information. You're saying that because other games have had their DRM patched out, you assume that this will also happen with Ubisoft's games. You don't know that. No one does. Not even the current people at Ubisoft can say it with any certainty.

The fact is that there is no guarantee at all that any of Ubisoft's games using this system will be playable at all after the servers go down. And they will go down eventually. No company is going to keep authentication servers up forever. Sure, they say they will release a patch if they ever go tits up, but there is no legal guarantee of that happening. Even Steam's Subscriber Agreement (http://store.steampowered.com/subscriber_agreement/) specifically says otherwise despite their earlier talk of patching out the server authentication. It's not happening.

Fact: I can, right now, pull disks out of my closet for PC games that are over 20 years old, install, and play them. No server checks are needed. I can name over a dozen EA games that are crippled or inoperable (http://www.ea.com/2/service-updates) thanks to the servers being turned off, unless you think playing LOTR: Conquest as a singleplayer game is any fun.

[Adam Blue]

No, you're not. You're extrapolating using your (limited) information. You're saying that because other games have had their DRM patched out, you assume that this will also happen with Ubisoft's games. You don't know that. No one does. Not even the current people at Ubisoft can say it with any certainty.

Exactly. But that doesn't mean it isn't happening. There's a difference though. A physical copy of a game (CD or download) with DRM that you could crack (or be patched), or a downloadable services (keeping it on the server). I'm still all about physical copies. Because any of this could happen, and if any of my physical games had DRM there's always eventually a way around it. Again, name a game that still has dead-end DRM.

Unfortunately I still buy games on XBLM, PSN, etc. Who knows what will happen to those games. Steam games, once downloaded, can be cracked. Though, if you don't keep a copy on your side you're setting yourself up for inevitable failure. They tell you that don't they?

This is just a bad time in PC gaming and it's something that will eventually pass. They aren't saying 'Hey let's fuck the gamers!'.

[Adam Blue]

...but if you are saying it's ok for the DRM to be in place at all because they will patch it out, well, I've already explained why it's stupid and flawed argument and I have no idea how to make that any more clear.

I'm not. But what the fuck is anybody going to do about it? Do we have an ultimate answer? Do we know what's really going on with pirating and sales? No. Like in the last post, we'll have to just give it time. Crack the DRM when need be.

[Deadend]

Ubisoft REFUSES to commit to releasing a patch if they take down the servers. Straight out refusal.

I've had trouble with Steam where I can't get offline mode to work, as my network connection had the Steam ports blocked. What if the Ubi ports are blocked? Or there is DNS trouble? How do I know that Ubi wants to resolve my issue? They have my money. With MMOs they want to resolve issues as they keep getting money. And we are talking about a company that wants to give us a Ghost Recon game every year now.

Buying Splinter Cell on the PC is stupid, as it will also likely be a shitty port from the 360.

[Chaos Machine]

I am absolutely certain they lose more sales to this type of behavior than they ever gain from the "piracy prevention" aspects of this byzantine drm system.

[Ravenlock]

Ubisoft REFUSES to commit to releasing a patch if they take down the servers. Straight out refusal.

Not quite true, depending on the order of events.

In their interview here (http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=235596) with PC Gamer, the following disturbing exchange takes place:

PCG: What I think a lot of us would really like is a firm commitment that you understand our worries that the servers are going to go down and suddenly we've just got some trash data on our hard drives that we've paid for.



Ubisoft: The system is made by guys who love PC games. They play PC games, they are your friends.



PCG: So you can commit to saying that those systems will be patched out?



Ubisoft: That's the plan.



PCG: It's the plan, or it's definitely going to happen?



Ubisoft: That's written into the goal of the overall plan of the thing. But we don't plan on shutting down the servers, we really don't."

And that's definitely not encouraging.

However, as of right now, their Online Services Platform Q&A (http://support.uk.ubi.com/online-services-platform/) says the following (emphasis mine):

What if Ubisoft decides not run these online services in the future? Will my game stop working?
If any service is stopped, we will create a patch for the game so that the core game play will not be affected.

The PC Gamer interview was on Feb 19. I don't know when Ubi put up the Q&A, but it's still up now, and certainly seems like it could be regarded as an official statement by the company if the shit really did hit the fan and people had to demand that patch.

Still not buying the game, but good to have the info out there.

[Adam Blue]

I am absolutely certain they lose more sales to this type of behavior than they ever gain from the "piracy prevention" aspects of this byzantine drm system.

See, I'm not saying this isn't so, but I hear so many sides yet no one has any numbers. In that case all we're doing is making arguments based on guesses...it doesn't really get us anywhere.

I's love to see numbers. I'd love to see us gamers get together and do something about it based on these facts. If these decisions made by publishers are killing PC gaming, this is our chance to do something about it rather than complain on forums.

[Adam Blue]

Another thing: If you want to play a game because you want to play a game, don't think by 'not purchasing' the game you're doing something for your cause. Enjoy your game and understand these devs aren't laughing maniacally in the background trying to fuck us over.

Instead, enjoy your game and make your voice known if this DRM somehow hinders your enjoyment.

[Ravenlock]

That really isn't my position, though, Adam, at least not with these games Ubisoft is putting out. In Assassin's Creed II's case, for example, I already played the game. Beat every inch of it on the 360. Loved it. It's a great game.

I had been looking forward, however, to purchasing the PC version as well because in the case of the first game, the PC version was really the definitive one IMO. It was superior to the console versions, and cheaper to boot. I would've had absolutely no problem paying for ACII again if it had followed that pattern.

Instead, the PC version of ACII is distinctly inferior to the console versions. It has no additional content, it has additional restrictions, and it costs MORE than going out right now and buying either console version of the same game.

I'm not going to reward that sort of shift with a purchase, and I recommend other people don't either. If you have a PS3 or 360, you should play ACII on that instead. I suspect the same will be true of Splinter Cell: Conviction.

[boratika]

Another thing: If you want to play a game because you want to play a game, don't think by 'not purchasing' the game you're doing something for your cause. Enjoy your game and understand these devs aren't laughing maniacally in the background trying to fuck us over.

Instead, enjoy your game and make your voice known if this DRM somehow hinders your enjoyment.

But that's kind of the sticking point. I want to play the game - and (in the case of AC2) intending to purchase the game - but now I can't. Or at least, not without lugging my computer to someone else's house.

I can buy the game and stare at an error screen instead of being able to play the game. From experience with Company of Heroes (campaign, not MP,) this is not enjoyable.

[Telefrog]

However, as of right now, their Online Services Platform Q&A (http://support.uk.ubi.com/online-services-platform/) says the following (emphasis mine):

The PC Gamer interview was on Feb 19. I don't know when Ubi put up the Q&A, but it's still up now, and certainly seems like it could be regarded as an official statement by the company if the shit really did hit the fan and people had to demand that patch.


The problem is that legally, that Q&A means almost nothing. The only statement that gamers can bank on is the one in the published agreement:

UBISOFT MAY CANCEL ACCESS TO ONLINE FEATURES UPON A 30-DAY PRIOR NOTICE PUBLISHED AT http://assassinscreed.com

"Online features" apparently including basic access to the game.

[Hotcod]

Another thing: If you want to play a game because you want to play a game, don't think by 'not purchasing' the game you're doing something for your cause. Enjoy your game and understand these devs aren't laughing maniacally in the background trying to fuck us over.

Instead, enjoy your game and make your voice known if this DRM somehow hinders your enjoyment.

I have no idea where to even start with this mess of a statement so I really won't. It's clear you've made your mind up and as illogical as your stance maybe you don't want to hear why so I'm done.

[J Arcane]

Another thing: If you want to play a game because you want to play a game, don't think by 'not purchasing' the game you're doing something for your cause. Enjoy your game and understand these devs aren't laughing maniacally in the background trying to fuck us over.

Instead, enjoy your game and make your voice known if this DRM somehow hinders your enjoyment.
And giving them money for this shit is helping, how, exactly?

[Adam Blue]

Let me put it this way:

If the game doesn't sell, they won't care about releasing on PC anymore.

If the game sells well, they will continue to release PC games in which the next step for us gamers is to speak out about DRM. Like, as a community try to create a DRM crack for legit games and spread it around. Let them know we won't play by their DRM rules.

Or, don't buy their game. They don't think anyone wants their games on PC, they stop making games on PC, further driving the nail in the coffin.

I'm just seeing it in a different light. Boycotting won't make them stop the DRM, it just tells them PC gaming is not that important.

Unless, you guys can give me the numbers...we don't know what's going on back there. But I doubt their intentions are to fuck us.

[Adam Blue]

But that's kind of the sticking point. I want to play the game - and (in the case of AC2) intending to purchase the game - but now I can't. Or at least, not without lugging my computer to someone else's house.

I can buy the game and stare at an error screen instead of being able to play the game. From experience with Company of Heroes (campaign, not MP,) this is not enjoyable.

Now this is understandable. If by low sales they can somehow gauge how many were gamers without internet connections, maybe that will get them to change their ideas. But again, we don't know how the market works with all the variables.

[J Arcane]

I don't care what their intention is. If this is the way they behave to me as a customer, they can bugger off out the market, we'll all be better off without them, and it sends the message to others that might consider such idiocy that we won't tolerate it.

[Hawkzombie]

So, wait...

If you hate the DRM, buy the game and then complain?

It's like seeing a lamp that is broken for sale on the shelf, buying it, taking it home, putting it where to needs to go and then instead of taking it back, you write a strongly worded letter to the company. 'I bought your lamp, which was broken from the get go and placed it into my home. I'm rather upset this lamp was broken and I'd appreciate it if you fixed any further issues with lamps before I purchase them again. But feel free to keep my hard-earned money as a reward for making lamps in the first place.'

I honestly don't see the logic of that. If something is fundamentally flawed, you take it back or demand some sort of restitution.

The DRM is a fundamental (intentional) flaw in the game, that does nothing except punish the consumer. I'm not one of those 'conspiracy' theorists who think this is their way of killing PC gaming, I think this is some middle management idiot who thought 'well, everyone I know has the internet, so this is a great idea!' and no one questioned it. I know people won't boycott the game (not play it)...they'll either pirate or buy it and just not care. It's the apathy that's killing PC gaming. And honestly, your method of dealing with it is the other side of the apathy coin. Instead of 'Well, I'm just not buying it, and I'm gonna tell em why' and never following through (or worse yet, pirating or eventually buying the game) yours is 'Well, I'm buying the game to support PC gaming, but I'm gonna tell em why I hate it!' and the odds are you (or anyone else taking that stance) will probably never write that strongly worded letter, and you'll be stuck with lots of lamps in your house that don't work, simply because you want to support lamp makers, instead of addressing the core issue/flaw.

It boils down to apathy. And in my opinion, that's worse than any of these draconian DRMs.

[Chaos Machine]

Let me put it this way:

If the game doesn't sell, they won't care about releasing on PC anymore.

If the game sells well, they will continue to release PC games in which the next step for us gamers is to speak out about DRM. Like, as a community try to create a DRM crack for legit games and spread it around. Let them know we won't play by their DRM rules.

Or, don't buy their game. They don't think anyone wants their games on PC, they stop making games on PC, further driving the nail in the coffin.

I'm just seeing it in a different light. Boycotting won't make them stop the DRM, it just tells them PC gaming is not that important.

Unless, you guys can give me the numbers...we don't know what's going on back there. But I doubt their intentions are to fuck us.

I dont think its as black and white as that, especially if other games sell well on the pc that arent encumbered by a drm system like this. Everyone knows starcraft2 is going to sell a metric fuckton of units, and its doesnt fall into the mmo/shooter/rpg criteria that pretty much every publisher has been riding for the past 5 years. Maybe then they will take notice on what you need to do to be successful on the pc. As it stands, I have no intention to buy another ubisoft game as a matter of principle. I have bought 10 pc games this year already so its not like im looking for an excuse to be frugal. If you boycott their games its more likely they will be scratching their heads wondering why only their game sales are suffering while other publishers are unaffected.

[Seika]

Let me put it this way:

If the game doesn't sell, they won't care about releasing on PC anymore..

Who cares if they don't release any more PC games?

There will always be PC games, PC gaming is not dying.
Their place will be filled by other developers, even Indie developers. (I.E. 4A Games (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4A_Games), GSC Game World (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GSC_Game_World) , Frictional Games (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frictional_Games), ACE Team (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ACE_Team), ect ect.)

If they don't release something I want, then I won't buy it.
When the fuck did it become about saving something?
I'm not here to save anything, I'm just want to enjoy my gaming experiences without bullshit DRM getting in the way. That's it.

[J Arcane]

Indeed. The free market is not a charity. If a business wishes to survive, it will offer a product the public wishes to purchase. Otherwise, it will die. That's just the way it works.

[Adam Blue]

Indeed. The free market is not a charity. If a business wishes to survive, it will offer a product the public wishes to purchase. Otherwise, it will die. That's just the way it works.

Well, this is part of my point. None of this DRM matters if the public wants the game anyway. But no one knows what the numbers are or how piracy is really affecting everything.

And by support PC gaming I just mean buy the game you want to play and don't let DRM get in the way. The devs have nothing to do with the DRM and there are better methods, like playing the game and cracking the DRM, than to boycott. Because we want to play games.

You might think it's stupid that I say buy the game and then complain about the DRM...but that's actually what has been happening, and it works.

[Seika]

You might think it's stupid that I say buy the game and then complain about the DRM...but that's actually what has been happening, and it works.

No, that doesn't work.

You think the next Modern Warfare/Call of Duty will NOT include IWNet? It will, even if didn't work.
Why? People voted with their wallets, they bought the game as it was.

Have you ever been to the IW forums?
There are a lot of vocal fans, begging IW to fix the multiplayer. Even the hardcore fans, the ones that bought the game despite everything that was said before it was released, are now boycotting the game by not playing it anymore. Why?, because no real fix for the cheating has been released. I doubt, that all of the cheating could ever be fixed, because the main problem lies on IWnet itself.

No, buying the DRM, and complaining later doesn't work. ;)

Want another example?, go look at the Bioshock 2 forums.

[boratika]

It's like seeing a lamp that is broken for sale on the shelf, buying it, taking it home, putting it where to needs to go and then instead of taking it back, you write a strongly worded letter to the company. 'I bought your lamp, which was broken from the get go and placed it into my home. I'm rather upset this lamp was broken and I'd appreciate it if you fixed any further issues with lamps before I purchase them again. But feel free to keep my hard-earned money as a reward for making lamps in the first place.'

Hawk, I wish to purchase one of your lamps.

[Hawkzombie]

You might think it's stupid that I say buy the game and then complain about the DRM...but that's actually what has been happening, and it works.

I would love to see some examples of DRM being removed because paying customers demanded it after buying the game in the first place.

Hawk, I wish to purchase one of your lamps.

Sure, just don't hold your breath for that patch that says you can turn the lights on where there's no one in the room. I mean, I said I'd release it if people ever stopped going into rooms in my FAQ, but that's not legally binding, and everyone usually has SOMEONE in a room, right? Oh, and there's no up coming hotfix for the fact it automatically burns out whatever bulb you were using should anyone leave the room, forcing you to use a brand new bulb. Working as intended.

[Adam Blue]

No, that doesn't work.

You think the next Modern Warfare/Call of Duty will NOT include IWNet? It will, even if didn't work.
Why? People voted with their wallets, they bought the game as it was.

Have you ever been to the IW forums?
There are a lot of vocal fans, begging IW to fix the multiplayer. Even the hardcore fans, the ones that bought the game despite everything that was said before it was released, are now boycotting the game by not playing it anymore. Why?, because no real fix for the cheating has been released. I doubt, that all of the cheating could ever be fixed, because the main problem lies on IWnet itself.

No, buying the DRM, and complaining later doesn't work. ;)

Want another example?, go look at the Bioshock 2 forums.

It's a huge game and people cheat as a hobby. That's going to be hard on any developer. We're not talking about exploits here....

As for DRM patches, off the top of my head I can say Bioshock, The Witcher, and EA games.

[Adam Blue]

Here's a good thread. (http://www.ataricommunity.com/forums/showthread.php?t=673039)

Time has shown that devs keep their word. Initial DRM to slow piracy, then removed.

[Hemalin]

Now I´ll ask you why NWN 2 has Securom DRM around 4 years and it still hasn´t been removed yet. Specially module builders who run/exit the game are still suffering this issue.Really? Cause the 2 year old Test Drive Unlimited community is still waiting for Atari to own up and get rid of the DRM, which as the forums show, is effecting more and more people every day. As the PR and final product and support for TDU and NWN2 show, Atari isn't really a company worth trusting when it comes to extended support.How very reassuring.

[Jeffool]

I'm not averse to DRM to some degree, but it should be minimally invasive, and not present problems to legal owners, as this does. I'll repeat what I said in the other thread: Steamworks DRM (which is what is used in ALL Steam games) is completely free for them to use, and they don't have to tie it directly to the Steam store or Valve in any way.

[Chaos Machine]

I'm not averse to DRM to some degree, but it should be minimally invasive, and not present problems to legal owners, as this does. I'll repeat what I said in the other thread: Steamworks DRM (which is what is used in ALL Steam games) is completely free for them to use, and they don't have to tie it directly to the Steam store or Valve in any way.

its also completely ineffective.

[Deadend]

DRM should be invisible to the legitimate user. Anything less is annoying and a pain in the ass.

[H.Bogard]

Thought I'd chime in:

The currency here is ridiculously weak, though I have been doing my best to make sure that the developers who make the games that I enjoy get my money (even if it means waiting for a Steam sale a year after release). I can barely afford it, and it hurts my pocket compared to just running out to a pirated DVD store (there are a billion of them where I live) and just picking the game up there.

Instead of encouraging someone like me who wants to pay the developers for their hard work, they're ridiculing their customers, penalizing us for buying from them.
It seems that from a business perspective, this who ordeal seems to serve only one purpose, not to sell the PC version of the game, but to see if the pirates can crack this one. It is a shame, really... their judgment is clouded, deluded from what they should have been doing.

What's surprising is that they do not consider this method a hindrance. I know for sure that if this game gets cracked, it will be a better experience. The $2 I spend will offer me a better value rather than the sticking-with-morals $50.


There is a reason people prefer legit copies of Team fortress 2 and Left 4 Dead to pirated ones running on hacked servers. They offer better experiences compared to the illegal counterparts. With Splinter Cell and Assassin's Creed, Ubi has it the other way around.

[Smoof]

its also completely ineffective.

Making bold statements without proof to back it up? That's just good arguing!

[J Arcane]

Making bold statements without proof to back it up? That's just good arguing!
Point me to one bloody DRM game that hasn't been cracked.

Now point me to one gamer interested in these sorts of "hardcore" games that doesn't know exactly where to find those cracks.

[H.Bogard]

Making bold statements without proof to back it up? That's just good arguing!

It sure as hell will drive customers away. This went from being a must-buy, totally-worth-launch-price game to a wouldn't-touch-it-with-a-ten-foot-pole game to me.

[Doogie2K]

If you buy this, good luck trying to play it when their servers are getting ddos at launch. ;)

Funny, I had the same thought. If someone wanted to make a point, killing their SP authentication servers might be a place to start.

[MagGnome]

Yet another reason for me to not buy anymore Ubisoft titles.

Thanks for saving me money, guys!

Seriously, this is too bad, and I really hope this doesn't become the norm. Thankfully my favorite developers have continued to avoid this kind of malarkey.

[Adam Blue]

Looks like people can't play some PS3 games right now. Boycott for them to remove Trophy authentication? Or is it ok since it normally isn't visible, considering there are less issues when playing a PC game?

Whether you see it or not, it's all around. The question is can you play it or not?

[Hotcod]

those are things that people opt in to and you know it. You buy the game, put it in a ps3 that isn't hooked up to the net and you can play the game you paid for. Shocking.

[Adam Blue]

those are things that people opt in to and you know it. You buy the game, put it in a ps3 that isn't hooked up to the net and you can play the game you paid for. Shocking.

Even off-line you can't play.

EDIT: Shocking?

[MagGnome]

What exactly is your point, Adam?

First you say that everyone should buy these Ubisoft games anyway, as if this new DRM isn't a big deal.

Now you're saying that something terrible has happened on PSN, which means what, exactly? That maybe these types of systems are actually all that great?

Are you arguing against your earlier posts, or what? I'm completely lost as to what you are trying to say.

[Hotcod]

Even off-line you can't play.

EDIT: Shocking?

Only if you've played the game online first. If I took a copy of heavy rain out of the box and put it in a ps3 that wasn't online I could play the game. By taking the game online and using dynamic trophy support I'm opting in to a system. A system that isn't intended to let me not play if I'm not online but one which has bugged out due to sony doing some updates over the weekend. It's the same thing with DA and ME2 networks, you opt in to use the DLC and you are meant to be free to use the game and the DLC while off line but a bug means that the games can sometimes lock you out of you DLC and so you DLC based save if you try and connect to the servers when they are having a problem.

The difference is that the PS3 and EA network problems are bugs in systems that give you content that is opt in. This DRM will lock you out when it's working as intend and that is retarded. So please if you are going to keep on arguing you amazingly badly through out points at lest try sticking to the fact of the matter.

[J Arcane]

What exactly is your point, Adam?

First you say that everyone should buy these Ubisoft games anyway, as if this new DRM isn't a big deal.

Now you're saying that something terrible has happened on PSN, which means what, exactly? That maybe these types of systems are actually all that great?

Are you arguing against your earlier posts, or what? I'm completely lost as to what you are trying to say.
I thought it was pretty obvious he was angling on hopes he could catch someone in hypocrisy somehow, to score points in this thread by pointing "See! See!?" at the PS3 as if it proved any damn thing at all other than "this is why PCs rule".

[Hotcod]

What exactly is your point, Adam?

First you say that everyone should buy these Ubisoft games anyway, as if this new DRM isn't a big deal.

Now you're saying that something terrible has happened on PSN, which means what, exactly? That maybe these types of systems are actually all that great?

Are you arguing against your earlier posts, or what? I'm completely lost as to what you are trying to say.

his trying to show we use these kind of DRM systems all the time. What he fails to realises is that we don't. We use online systems that give us content that when they are broken can have the same effect as this DRM system does when it's working and that opt in to the former while being forced to use the latter. But we won't let logic and reason stand in the way of his talking points, clearly that would just be crazy.

[H.Bogard]

Looks like people can't play some PS3 games right now. Boycott for them to remove Trophy authentication? Or is it ok since it normally isn't visible, considering there are less issues when playing a PC game?

Whether you see it or not, it's all around. The question is can you play it or not?

Perspective. You'd be boycotting and bitching loud about it if Sony required you to be online all the time to play any game on your PS3 and claiming trophies to be the sole incentive.

[MagGnome]

I thought it was pretty obvious he was angling on hopes he could catch someone in hypocrisy somehow, to score points in this thread by pointing "See! See!?" at the PS3 as if it proved any damn thing at all other than "this is why PCs rule".

Ah, I see. I really hope that's not the case, but it seems likely. I'm not harping against Adam in particular here, but why is it that so often on forums people think that the only way they can "win" an argument is to prod someone else into saying something contradictory? It's one of the many reasons why I think arguing about anything online is pretty much pointless.

[J Arcane]

Ah, I see. I really hope that's not the case, but it seems likely. I'm not harping against Adam in particular here, but why is it that so often on forums people think that the only way they can "win" an argument is to prod someone else into saying something contradictory? It's one of the many reasons why I think arguing about anything online is pretty much pointless.
Hey, at least he's had the decency to wait until it actually happens before going on the attack this time. IME, it's far more common to simply assume the other guy holds the contradictory position, and then attack him on those grounds without even bothering to check if it's actually true or not first. I've seen it so much I've even coined a term for it. (http://www.therpgsite.com/showpost.php?p=327444&postcount=86)

[Hawkzombie]

Hey, I don't mind. I get to come up with clever little lamp analogies :p

[Adam Blue]

No, my point was while it may not be in-your-face digital rights managements, there are things that disallow one from playing games. In my eyes these 'things' are all the same. I hate XBLA, PSN, and Steam. But it's convenient. The thought of what could occur with these servers in the future scares me. BUT, if I decided to not purchase a game I originally intended to purchases solely due to this DRM, I would personally feel like a hypocrite if I also used Steam, PSN, etc.

So, to wrap things up, these are my TWO points which I now see as totally a preference and not shared like I originally thought:

1. DRM, Steam, XBLA - all one in the same. If you don't like one, you don't like the other.

2. Play the game you want to play.

With these two points though, I go by a rule: If you can't play the game then there's some shit going on. I've had more problems on consoles about this than PC (PC non existent). But they've always been fixed quickly.

Remember: Whether you like to believe it or not, they're not trying to stop you from playing the game. (And if you just happen to not have internet, well your late to the party because this isn't new, and I'm sure anyone would help you secure a crack for your legit copy). Enjoy the game.

[Adam Blue]

Also, I like the Emperor Strawman. But I was more about displaying that this stuff is everywhere even if unannounced. I was just calling the idea hypocritical. I'm usually not one to attack people here.

[Hemalin]

1. DRM, Steam, XBLA - all one in the same. If you don't like one, you don't like the other.

That's just retarded.

CD check != install limits != online authentication != code wheel

If you can't see the pros and cons and why people might tolerate one but not the other you really need to look at precisely why people like Steam and XBLA but not this Ubi crap.

[Smoof]

Point me to one bloody DRM game that hasn't been cracked.

Now point me to one gamer interested in these sorts of "hardcore" games that doesn't know exactly where to find those cracks.

The point of Steam is to prevent 0-day piracy, not to be uncrackable. Thus, saying that Steam is completely ineffectual at stopping piracy is a false statement. Sure, it is the case that Steam game can be pirated, but it stops them from being pirated prior to release, which is the goal.

[Deadend]

The point of Steam is to prevent 0-day piracy, not to be uncrackable. Thus, saying that Steam is completely ineffectual at stopping piracy is a false statement. Sure, it is the case that Steam game can be pirated, but it stops them from being pirated prior to release, which is the goal.

Also the hacks required to make Steam games work (going from .nfos) has a few more steps than "install, copy crack, play" and the more steps you require pirates to take, the more who will give up. Thus why there is piracy on the 360, but it involves putting chips in the console and quite a few steps.

Oops (http://arstechnica.com/gaming/news/2010/02/the-victims-of-pc-gaming-drm-one-soldiers-story.ars) it looks like no Splinter Cell for PC gamers who are stationed out in Afganistan/Iraq (not sure if they would own gaming PCs.. but it's still a good point.)

Steam has an offline mode to it.. that sometimes doesn't work, due to fuckups, but I am pretty damn sure if I am playing Half-life 2 and my router disconnects, I still can keep playing if I am in the game.

[Hotcod]

1. DRM, Steam, XBLA - all one in the same. If you don't like one, you don't like the other.

WrjwaqZfjIY

I use the silly youtube video to make the point because honestly it won't matter if I explain to you in detail why you are wrong with big colour pictures hand holding and explaining of the big words you are not going to listen. I shouldn't have gotten my self back in to the debate after leaving saying that there's no point arguing with you. You've just managed to keep on posting more and more ridiculous points with out seeming to bother to stop and in anyway think about what you are saying. It's my own fault really.

edit:

Also I'd just like to point out that the problems in PS3 case, now we know more about it, is down to a bug in the firm wear and has nothing to do with the PSN network. It's in essence like a millennium bug 'cus it seems to be some kind of date reset problem which is interacting badly with games that support some given features. So in other words this undermines Adams point even more. Adam is posting in the news thread on the topic trying very hard to not only find a way to keep this as a DRM talking point but trying to start a cross post debate, which is really not a good idea 'cus his only going to get his ass handed to him all over again.

[MagGnome]

Hey, at least he's had the decency to wait until it actually happens before going on the attack this time. IME, it's far more common to simply assume the other guy holds the contradictory position, and then attack him on those grounds without even bothering to check if it's actually true or not first. I've seen it so much I've even coined a term for it. (http://www.therpgsite.com/showpost.php?p=327444&postcount=86)

I've seen you link to that before, and I completely agree with you. Very clever. ;)


No, my point was while it may not be in-your-face digital rights managements, there are things that disallow one from playing games. In my eyes these 'things' are all the same. I hate XBLA, PSN, and Steam. But it's convenient. The thought of what could occur with these servers in the future scares me. BUT, if I decided to not purchase a game I originally intended to purchases solely due to this DRM, I would personally feel like a hypocrite if I also used Steam, PSN, etc.

I understand what you're saying, but I disagree to some extent. Steam actually carries with it a lot of benefits, whereas this Ubisoft DRM doesn't have a single benefit to me, the consumer. That's where the problem lies. In fact, it creates additional hassles and hoops that I have to jump through in order to enjoy a game that I paid for.

[Ravenlock]

Furthermore, regardless of whether you believe that their "intent" is to "keep you from playing your game" (which for the record I don't think it is either), there's no ignoring that they do intend to prevent you from playing their game without a constantly active internet connection. That is intentional on their part, and very different from Steam, XBLA, PSN, etc where only a failure causes that condition to occur. To claim that PSN being vulnerable to this condition is equivalent to Ubi's DRM being designed for this condition seems a little absurd.

It is not inconsistent to accept Steam's potential long-term vulnerability of server shutdown (which I do, with reservations I've spoken about at length elsewhere) and still oppose Ubisoft's new DRM scheme. Ubi is placing extra requirements on the consumer right now, not in some theoretical future or at a potential point of failure.

[Adam Blue]

Some of you guys are being cool about this, considering it's my unpopular point of view, and some of you are being complete dicks...Hotcod I don't mind calling you out because you've been this way with me before just because of my OPINION.

One time I went to install my Half-Life 2 retail discs. But it told me I had to use Steam. My internet was down at the time so I couldn't play it. I say one time, but that's actually happened on multiple occasions. Even with the internet up. I fucking bought this game at the store why do I have to download it? And it will take all day? Steam is a lot better now, but I ran into these issues often in the past.

One time Live! was down. Because of a recent RRoD, my XBLA games weren't tied to the console so no play for me.

When it has come to DRM, specifically the EA DRM everyone cries about....I've never had an issue.

So, in my eyes....I guess I should reiterate, my opinion, I see these as the same. I've had less (none) issues with non-Steam retail DRM PC games than I have with just about any other type.

I'm just curious why I'm "Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, etc". Or, leave the conversation if you have the urge to be incredibly rude. I guess you can do what you want here, but I'd just prefer someone not to be so rude here on CoG.

[Hotcod]

just because something is an opinion does not mean it can't be wrong or invalid. Your opinions are based on ideas that have been time and time again shown to be illogical and at odds with the reality of a given situation. For example even after it's been pointed out that the PS3 problems are FW bugs you kept on trying to use it to make a point about DRM. Which was point that didn't stand up on it's own even when we thought it was PSN network problem in the first place.

I have no problem at all with you being fine with the DRM my problem just stems from the fact your reasons for doing so are flawed and that you've refused to deal with anything that might need you to change them.

[Ravenlock]

My issue with your position, Adam, starts and ends with your statement that anyone who opposes Ubi's new DRM should equally oppose Steam, XBLA, PSN, and any other network-driven distribution / DRM scheme.

Again, those other systems only prevent you from playing your game - with or without a network connection - in a state of failure. They are not designed to do so. That is measurably different than designing a system to stop you from playing without a network connection. That difference matters to me, and I actively oppose it while I do not necessarily oppose the others (even if they do make me nervous).

Which ones you've personally had more issues with in the past, while a perfectly valid support for your feelings on the matter, is totally irrelevant to the question of what is or isn't a reasonable design to impose on your users.

However, to Adam's point, Hotcod, it is possible to have a more productive discussion about something by being less dismissive about the other person's stance. It's also more pleasant for pretty much everyone involved.

[Xydarc]

http://art.penny-arcade.com/photos/791728635_VJ8Qa-L.jpg

[Hotcod]

However, to Adam's point, Hotcod, it is possible to have a more productive discussion about something by being less dismissive about the other person's stance. It's also more pleasant for pretty much everyone involved.

I honest to god tried, the point at which I become a bit harsh in in my posts is at the point it's clear it's clear Adam has no intent to listen. He will seize on anything, fact or not, that seems to support his points then ignore anything else that does not. Which simply precludes any hope for a real debate rather than a just arguing and shouting. The only reason I stepped back in to this debate after saying that I was finished posts because of those reasons was when Adam made plainly false statements lining the (then thought to be) psn network bug to the ubisoft DRM system. The idea was proved wrong but Adam wouldn't drop it to the point that he kept on trying to link what we know now to be a firmware bug to DRM in the unrelated news post on the PS3 problems.

I'm not being dismissive of his stance to be rude or mean I'm being dismissive to his stance because not only is it based on false fact and wrong reasoning Adam has no intent of being open to changing it. My tone is partly frustration with this and partly because I hope in some way to get through to him just how much me and other are being bemused and annoyed by his view on the matter in the hopes he might start to wonder why we are so worked up and maybe just maybe get him to take an honest look at his own arguments. It's not a very effective tactic and never has been but when all else is failed you may as well give it a go. It's not going to work in this case which is why I'm going to say I'm done, again, even if Adam feels the need to drag up even more wrong ideas to try and support his view.

[J Arcane]

The point of Steam is to prevent 0-day piracy, not to be uncrackable. Thus, saying that Steam is completely ineffectual at stopping piracy is a false statement. Sure, it is the case that Steam game can be pirated, but it stops them from being pirated prior to release, which is the goal.
Except it is. People were playing L4D on hacked Russian copies like the day the game came out. It's better DRM than others, as past the install point you're pretty golden IME, and it's a bit harder depending on the release in question to get things working, but it still happens quite a bit.

[Ravenlock]

Hotcod, I think you may be attributing positions to Adam that he doesn't actually hold. He's made it pretty clear that he's ideologically opposed to any of these systems - Steam, XBLA, PSN included - and his statements that he's personally had more trouble with the online-driven content distribution systems than he's had with online DRM tied to physical media (which inevitably gets cracked) are perfectly valid points. From a purely practical standpoint, physical media is often still more reliable in the end no matter what nonsense publishers choose to put on it, and very rarely if ever (so far...) does DRM truly end up preventing long-term use of a game. It gets removed either by the publisher or by the users.

I think the only place he steps out of line is in claiming that it's somehow hypocritical to be okay with Steam / XBLA / PSN while being against draconian online DRM schemes. It is not. The goals of the systems are different, the implementations are different, and the benefits to the end user are entirely different. Ubi's new plan is straight-up bad for the consumer IMO, but my opposition to it does not and should not imply opposition to anything having online components ever.

[Hawkzombie]

Yeah...if my internet drops, I can still play Steam, PSN games already DLed (or those with trophies) and XBLA games. If it drops with Ubisoft's DRM, i can't play it AT ALL until my internet comes back on.

[MagGnome]

It is not inconsistent to accept Steam's potential long-term vulnerability of server shutdown (which I do, with reservations I've spoken about at length elsewhere) and still oppose Ubisoft's new DRM scheme. Ubi is placing extra requirements on the consumer right now, not in some theoretical future or at a potential point of failure.

I've said this before, but this possibility doesn't bother me nearly as much as it used to. If the Steam servers are ever shut down, I would have no qualms about using other, "shadier" venues to download the games I've already purchased. To me it's no different than if I buy a game and the DVD gets scratched up beyond all recognition. Of course I might repurchase some games for a variety of reasons, but many of them I would just download. I've already paid the developer, and I doubt most of them would care (or even be around) by the time Steam goes down.


Some of you guys are being cool about this, considering it's my unpopular point of view, and some of you are being complete dicks...Hotcod I don't mind calling you out because you've been this way with me before just because of my OPINION.

I hope I fall into the "cool" camp, as I've tried to be as polite as possible.

It sounds to me like you've had run-ins with DRM in the past, including Steam. So why are you in favor of Ubisoft using this system? I guess I'm still confused.

[Hawkzombie]

I think it's more about Adam wanting to support PC gaming, than the DRM it portrays.

[MagGnome]

I think it's more about Adam wanting to support PC gaming, than the DRM it portrays.

Ah, I see. That's very noble of him. I want PC gaming to last for years and years to come, but this kind of DRM needs to die out ASAP.

[Seika]

Haha. (http://www.nfohump.com/index.php?switchto=nfos&menu=quicknav&item=viewnfo&id=143849)
Context. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silent_Hunter_V#DRM_restrictions)

http://img696.imageshack.us/img696/6919/nelsonhaha0preview.gif

[J Arcane]

Truly brilliant.

Good show Ubisoft, you've pushed the bar, and still fell flat on your face to boot.

[H.Bogard]

Hate to say TOLD YOU SO!

[Lekon]

Awesomely hilarious. All this hubub about Awesome DRM... and the pirates STILL have the game before regular people, with less problems.

Damn that Impulse guy was right! How dare he be so smart as to say play to your customers!

[MagGnome]

Ha, that is hilarious!

Further proof that this sort of DRM is a waste of time and only hurts legitimate consumers.

[Lekon]

Ha, that is hilarious!

Further proof that this sort of DRM is a waste of time and only hurts legitimate consumers.

Indeed. Only DRM that works is where the pirate is inconvenienced more than the legitimate buyer. Steam's a good example, as you get value from steam! (Some games more than others obviously)

A great DRM I saw was on Archon Classic (Upcoming game, but if you pre-order you get a beta version) In the install screen it says "Thank you for buying! And if you didn't, Please Mr. Pirate, share some of your booty with us?"

[Hawkzombie]

See, a game like that, with that sort of message, if I pirated it I might feel a little guilty and buy it just because they have a sense of humor.

[Hotcod]

Haha. (http://www.nfohump.com/index.php?switchto=nfos&menu=quicknav&item=viewnfo&id=143849)
Context. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silent_Hunter_V#DRM_restrictions)

http://img696.imageshack.us/img696/6919/nelsonhaha0preview.gif

Do we know if the offline saves are working? if they are then this is truly epic fail on ubisoft part. There's been less restrictive DRM that's not been cracked this quickly but then again the pirates may have a point to prove on this front. Or it could be a complex double bluff, ubiosoft sends out a small title to be cracked, look at the crack and update the DRM in the newer games... :eek:

[Hawkzombie]

Or it could be a complex double bluff, ubiosoft sends out a small title to be cracked, look at the crack and update the DRM in the newer games... :eek:

7g0RLyxP13o

[Adam Blue]

Now you can play the game you want and not have to worry about DRM. They see sales vs. how many are using DRM, and they know it didn't work.

[Deimos]

Now you can play the game you want and not have to worry about DRM. They see sales vs. how many are using DRM, and they know it didn't work.

I still can't buy your logic here Adam. I cannot in good conscience give my money to a company that thinks this sort of DRM is okay. I would rather see Ubisoft never release a PC title again than to support this kind of crap. There are plenty of other companies producing games to take up my limited gaming time.

[Ravenlock]

Now you can play the game you want and not have to worry about DRM. They see sales vs. how many are using DRM, and they know it didn't work.

That conclusion makes no sense. If they see sales numbers higher than the # of people actually connecting to the DRM servers - implying that paying customers are then cracking the game - how does that tell them it "didn't work"? If those people paid, that's success from their point of view. The very existence of a crack this early tells them their DRM was unsuccessful, but that just means they'll want somehow even tighter future DRM.

Just because there's a sketchy workaround that allows for the customer to actually use the product the way it should be designed in the first place doesn't excuse them NOT designing it that way in the first place. And rewarding them for designing it wrong and then using a workaround to fix it isn't going to somehow convince them to start designing it right in the future.

[Hawkzombie]

That conclusion makes no sense. If they see sales numbers higher than the # of people actually connecting to the DRM servers - implying that paying customers are then cracking the game - how does that tell them it "didn't work"? If those people paid, that's success from their point of view. The very existence of a crack this early tells them their DRM was unsuccessful, but that just means they'll want somehow even tighter future DRM.

Just because there's a sketchy workaround that allows for the customer to actually use the product the way it should be designed in the first place doesn't excuse them NOT designing it that way in the first place. And rewarding them for designing it wrong and then using a workaround to fix it isn't going to somehow convince them to start designing it right in the future.

Everything you say is like a chorus of angles singing softly into my mind. I couldn't have put it better myself.

[Ravenlock]

Why thank you. That may be the first time I've wanted to sig something. :p

[Hawkzombie]

I seem to have that effect on people. Usually it's whenever I say/admit something stupid, however.

[MagGnome]

Why thank you. That may be the first time I've wanted to sig something. :p

Hawkzombie has never referred to anything I've said as a "chorus of angles".

Maybe I should be relieved, as I'm not exactly sure what that means? It must have something to do with the children who are hoped up. :D

[Hawkzombie]

Hawkzombie has never referred to anything I've said as a "chorus of angles".

Maybe I should be relieved, as I'm not exactly sure what that means? It must have something to do with the children who are hoped up. :D

You are such an ass :p

[MagGnome]

You are such an ass :p

I have made it my personal mission to harass you in every thread.


Purely out of love, of course. :D

[Heretic Machine]

Now you can play the game you want and not have to worry about DRM. They see sales vs. how many are using DRM, and they know it didn't work.

Or you can get it for free and give your money to people who don't hate you.

[Hawkzombie]

I have made it my personal mission to harass you in every thread.


Purely out of love, of course. :D

You're the forum equivalent of the girl who wallops her crush over the head with a lunch pail at recess.

[Adam Blue]

Or you can get it for free and give your money to people who don't hate you.

If that system worked, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

[MagGnome]

You're the forum equivalent of the girl who wallops her crush over the head with a lunch pail at recess.

Don't flatter yourself. :p

[boratika]

Ubi's official response:

You have probably seen rumors on the web that Assassin’s Creed II and Silent Hunter 5 have been cracked. Please know that this rumor is false and while a pirated version may seem to be complete at start up, any gamer who downloads and plays a cracked version will find that their version is not complete.

Yes, they may find that it lacks the feature where it kick people from the game when their internets dips. Only legitimate users get that!

I figure if there was anything significant (like being able to save) missing, they would have been less vague.

Just because there's a sketchy workaround that allows for the customer to actually use the product the way it should be designed in the first place doesn't excuse them NOT designing it that way in the first place. And rewarding them for designing it wrong and then using a workaround to fix it isn't going to somehow convince them to start designing it right in the future.

Well at least we know they now have a "patch" for if the servers are taken down :D (http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2008/07/18/ubisoft-having-a-crack/)

(heh, that never gets old)

[muddi900]

Everything you say is like a chorus of angles singing softly into my mind. I couldn't have put it better myself.

When angles sing, or talk, they close up. So are they really angles then?:D

[Hawkzombie]

Well at least we know they now have a "patch" for if the servers are taken down :D (http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2008/07/18/ubisoft-having-a-crack/)

(heh, that never gets old)

Oh god, I remember that...It's like a brilliant comedy unfolding before our eyes day by day.

[Doogie2K]

When angles sing, or talk, they close up. So are they really angles then?:D

Sure they are. You can even change the notes they sing by changing their angular velocity function.

/math nerd

[Hawkzombie]

Oh crap I didn't even notice my damn typo.

[muddi900]

Sure they are. You can even change the notes they sing by changing their angular velocity function.

/math nerd

But when they come to consonant like "b" or "p", they cease being angles. Sure, you can say they just have 0 degrees of inclination, but do they really remain angles? They must go through one heck of an identity crisis. Why would hawkzombie put them through such an ordeal? What kind of a monster does that?

[MagGnome]

Oh crap I didn't even notice my damn typo.

What did you think my previous post was about? Sheesh. :p

[Hawkzombie]

What did you think my previous post was about? Sheesh. :p

I was stricken with the socklust. My memory is hazy.

[MagGnome]

I was stricken with the socklust. My memory is hazy.

Why am I not surprised?

[Doogie2K]

But when they come to consonant like "b" or "p", they cease being angles. Sure, you can say they just have 0 degrees of inclination, but do they really remain angles? They must go through one heck of an identity crisis. Why would hawkzombie put them through such an ordeal? What kind of a monster does that?

I guess that really depends on whether you consider zero a number. I firmly believe that an angular function can pass through zero without ceasing to be an angle; it is simply an angle of zero, just as a short circuit is a connection of (effectively) zero resistance.

Actually, come to think of it, there is no true zero, when you think about it. Even space has background radiation. Even "clean rooms" have some contaminants. Even a wire without a voltage applied can still experience current induced by the Earth's magnetic field. Even Dove is only 99.44% pure. Are the singing angles ever truly zero, or are they merely effectively zero?

[Hotcod]

I like how the last few pages of the thread make more sense to me than the rest.... :D

[muddi900]

I guess that really depends on whether you consider zero a number. I firmly believe that an angular function can pass through zero without ceasing to be an angle; it is simply an angle of zero, just as a short circuit is a connection of (effectively) zero resistance.

Actually, come to think of it, there is no true zero, when you think about it. Even space has background radiation. Even "clean rooms" have some contaminants. Even a wire without a voltage applied can still experience current induced by the Earth's magnetic field. Even Dove is only 99.44% pure. Are the singing angles ever truly zero, or are they merely effectively zero?

Whats the difference? If it feels real, looks real and tastes real, it is real, right? There is no such thing as "nothing", doesn't mean you won't be asphyxiated in space. It feels like nothing, smells like nothing and tastes like nothing.:eek:

As I said, the argument is valid mathematically, but my point was that the angles, who are sentient as they can sing, are being forced to revaluate their identities just for Hawkzombie's sick sick pleasure!:(

For those who are taking this seriously...DONT!

[Hawkzombie]

So, according to CoG, I'm a Sock Fucker and an Angle Enslaver. I wonder what else I can manage...

[H.Bogard]

Duck Vaginas


Just 'cause.

[Hawkzombie]

Time to break out the corkscrew...

[muddi900]

Cog has Duck Rape obsession.

[Panthera]

...a new fragrance, brought to you by Acqua di Parma.

[Doogie2K]

Whats the difference? If it feels real, looks real and tastes real, it is real, right? There is no such thing as "nothing", doesn't mean you won't be asphyxiated in space. It feels like nothing, smells like nothing and tastes like nothing.:eek:

As I said, the argument is valid mathematically, but my point was that the angles, who are sentient as they can sing, are being forced to revaluate their identities just for Hawkzombie's sick sick pleasure!:(

For those who are taking this seriously...DONT!

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. Clearly, this is a philosophical, even religious, question, which probably takes it outside the scope of this forum.

;)

[Hawkzombie]

I swear to god. I make one typo and suddenly I've sparked a movement.

[muddi900]

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. Clearly, this is a philosophical, even religious, question, which probably takes it outside the scope of this forum.

;)

"You know your problem Doogie2k, is that you're a man of science"

[Narradisall]

Actually Hawk I believe your a sock rapist.

[Hawkzombie]

Actually Hawk I believe your a sock rapist.

They'd call me Hanes 600 if they knew the truth! (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Johnny%2023)

[axion]

Was just cruising the Futureshop website and saw that Conviction is priced at $69.99 for the PC version.... they really don't want people buying it do they?

[Hawkzombie]

Was just cruising the Futureshop website and saw that Conviction is priced at $69.99 for the PC version.... they really don't want people buying it do they?

Canadian prices are getting out of hand, especially with how close the dollar is to the US. 70 for a PC version?!? With Shitty DRM? Ugh.

[MagGnome]

It will probably be $60 in the US. I hope it fails.

[Hawkzombie]

I simply do not buy games over 59.99....it's just ridiculous.

[MagGnome]

I don't really buy games over $20 anymore unless they are completely amazing. Civilization V and Elemental: War of Magic are the only two titles I'll likely buy for $50 this year. I didn't buy a single game last year that cost more than $20.

[Doogie2K]

Canadian prices are getting out of hand, especially with how close the dollar is to the US. 70 for a PC version?!? With Shitty DRM? Ugh.

It took them forever to drop the price down from C$70 to C$60 back when the dollars first neared parity a few years ago, and games were all US$50 still. I remember buying Doom 3 for C$70 at launch.