[Episode 26] Here Today, Gone Tomorrow

[Voodoo]

http://image.colonyofgamers.com/imcast.png


I promise this will be our last digital distribution episode.

Okay, no I don’t. I promise it will be our last one for at least a month? …We’ll see how we do on that, I guess.

We’ve spent a lot of time over the past several months extolling the virtues of digital distribution – the frequent sales, the convenience, the portability – and all of those virtues still hold true. It was time, though, to inject a little balance into the equation and start talking about one of the major downsides of digital distribution: you never really own what you buy anymore. Of course, as you’ll hear, maybe you never did to begin with, and it’s just more obvious now. Still, with the recent beta impressions of OnLive (http://www.pcper.com/article.php?aid=859&type=expert) hitting the web, it was time to talk about purchasing games vs. purchasing access to games, and the path we feel the future will take. Join us, and see if you agree with our assertions.

Time is also given to Terry Cavanagh’s (if I may say so) brilliant VVVVVV (http://www.thelettervsixtim.es/) in our indie segment, our retro gaming discussion starts off talking about Tomb Raider and ends up in places I can’t say I’m proud of (really, Warren? You wanted to see this (http://www.mobygames.com/game/dos/tomb-raider/screenshots/gameShotId,48018/) naked?), and we take a look at the UT2004 mod Air Buccaneers (http://ludocraft.oulu.fi/airbuccaneers/), if you’re in an airship kind of mood.

Also, from our list of recently played games, allow me to direct your attention to the D1X-Rebirth (http://www.dxx-rebirth.com/?Downloads:DXX-Rebirth) mod for Descent (http://www.gog.com/en/gamecard/descent_1_descent_2), in case you want to lose your lunch in 6 degrees of freedom. Oh, and this (http://mkv25.net/dfma/map-7268-flarechannel). What the Hell, Dwarf Fortress. You blow my mind.

Immortal Machines presents… Here Today, Gone Tomorrow (http://www.immortalmachines.com/public/podcast/Here_Today_Gone_Tomorrow.mp3)

Hosted and Summarized by Eric [Ravenlock]
Participants are Robert [Trebor], Warren [Mayhem], Jeremy [Lord Don], and perpetual special guest J Arcane
Produced by Clayton [Voodoo]

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[Doogie2K]

I still want Descent 4. Someone should make that happen.

[nabokovfan87]

metro 2033 looks insanely interesting to me.

anywho, just wanted to ask raven, why do i always disagree with you!!!???

It's always funny to me when you ask "anyone else have any other thoughts" and i just cant keep emailing you sooooo....

sidenote: lol at lara croft (not laura croft) screen, those r pointy!

EDIT: just realized the onlive stuff is from pcper.com, i think you said the site name wrong in the show. either way, cool site, cool guys (they have a podcast too), more into hardware and such side of pcs.

[Ravenlock]

You absolutely can keep emailing us, nab, that's why we have the email address. Just don't email us and IGC the same thing too often, or we'll have a lot of doubled content on our hands. ;) And I don't mind your disagreeing with me at all, that sort of healthy debate is precisely the point.

Feel free to elaborate on whichever thing you didn't agree with here, or write us an email and we'll get to it in the next round. :)

[Ravenlock]

Listening to it again, you're right, nab, I referred to it as "PC Perceptions", when the site name is "PC Perspective". My apologies. :)

Also, I said that I would toss out a link to the Borderlands modding tool I'm using - you can find info about that here (http://blmodding.wikidot.com/willowtree-tutorials), if you're interested.

[CappinCanuck]

I have to agree with the issues raised with Steam and other digital distributions. I've rambled on the topic a lot across the boards over the last year. My library is smaller than most. It's about 1:1 with retail copies. I'm not too worried about playing them in 10 years, I don't usually play any game that's 2+ years old. I just don't like having a company have so much control over my purchased product. That being said, I'll keep buying where it's cheap. I RARELY buy anything on Steam that isn't a sale item. I have never, will never buy a full priced item on Steam.

All that said, I don't worry about this stuff with Impulse. Just because it downloads, installs and updates, just like Steam, but it installs separately from Impulse. You don't need Impulse to play it. I like this model better. I don't know why Steam isn't moving towards that. You can also use retail version mods with it. I like it. Either way, I'll keep going where it's cheap.

I'm also really happy I dodged the STO bullet. I know people keep saying it picks up after lvl 10. Your concerns were the same as mine, same as everyone else who plays under lvl 10. But I couldn't summon up the courage to drop the $40 on this title after the beta; for all the same reasons you guys came up with.

[nabokovfan87]

You absolutely can keep emailing us, nab, that's why we have the email address. Just don't email us and IGC the same thing too often, or we'll have a lot of doubled content on our hands. ;) And I don't mind your disagreeing with me at all, that sort of healthy debate is precisely the point.

Feel free to elaborate on whichever thing you didn't agree with here, or write us an email and we'll get to it in the next round. :)

no worries, like i said in the email i get to the point where i just dont want to hear my name anymore cause i say so much shit.

my whole disagreeing point, you all were talking about downloads vs. boxed and how the pc section isnt there anymore. i think you underestimate steam, specifically when asking about modding a game and if you "own" the things you buy.

let me put it to ya this way, when you click on the games tab it says "my games", not "this is the list of things i have unlocked the rights to access for the time being". as far as windows 7 goes, i have had one game i cannot run on it, the medal of honor chest pack thing, which is made for xp, and that is a boxed thing. all of my steam games work, mods worked, and so far zero issues at all.

It sounded like you all were complaining about not being able to go to the corner store and buy a boxed copy of a pc game, but in reality we all go to steam or amazon. sure d2d is there and gog, but i havent touched those because my top games are css and dods and i dont want to have 100 things open. it comes down to steam vs. amazon and in no way do i want to stand up unbox a boxed copy, slip the disk in, the key, then update it, then put back in disc 1, then play it. i just want to click install, have it update on its own, and at the most have to copy/paste a key and give mass effect admin access on the .exe level. big deal, it takes 1 second. the big seller for steam for me is the fact that when i go to play game 2 or 3 or join a friend i can just click instead of go through the hastle of getting the cd out, finding out its disc 4 and not 1, then making sure i have it patched.

dont believe me? crysis, me, bioshock, psychonauts, and a bunch of other games, i bought on the steam sale just so i dont have to get the stupid disc out.

[Ravenlock]

let me put it to ya this way, when you click on the games tab it says "my games", not "this is the list of things i have unlocked the rights to access for the time being".

Of course that's what it says - Steam very much wants you to feel that you own the games you purchase. Makes people feel comfortable. But from a practical standpoint, it simply is not true.

Go take a look at the "Subscriber Agreement (http://store.steampowered.com/subscriber_agreement/)" for Steam, the one you agree to when you buy your games. Do you know why they call it that? Because they don't even refer to what you purchase from them as games, they refer to them as subscriptions, and they're very clear in saying that those subscriptions can be terminated at any time, without any legal recourse for the user. This isn't some nebulous future, this is the way the agreement reads right now (and lest you should think that it reads that way because they sell things like MMO's - no, they aren't just talking about games with monthly fees. Every single game you buy from Steam is a "subscription" in their legal language). You do not own these games in the traditional sense of ownership. Fast forward several years, which is what I was speculating about, and I think it'll sway much more in that direction.

You're absolutely right that the convenience gained by having all this stuff online is fantastic, and I talked about that in the show. Being able to download the games to any computer, get them auto-patched, store saves in the cloud, all that is great. But you're fooling yourself if you don't think you're giving something up for all that convenience.

Now, to be clear, I do trust Steam, at least enough to have purchased over 100 games from them. I regularly give them my money and use their service. I'm just being realistic about the arrangement. I trust them to operate in good faith, and to try their best to make sure I always have access to what I paid for.

But if it all goes tits up someday, it's entirely reasonable to assume those games are going to be gone, period. I'd suggest that anyone who hasn't come to terms with that yet either (1) go read that Subscriber Agreement and get used to it, or (2) stop buying from Steam and other online retailers (possible exception: GOG, as long as you back your stuff up to disc yourself).

EDIT: Also, this?

it comes down to steam vs. amazon and in no way do i want to stand up unbox a boxed copy, slip the disk in, the key, then update it, then put back in disc 1, then play it. i just want to click install, have it update on its own, and at the most have to copy/paste a key and give mass effect admin access on the .exe level. big deal, it takes 1 second. the big seller for steam for me is the fact that when i go to play game 2 or 3 or join a friend i can just click instead of go through the hastle of getting the cd out, finding out its disc 4 and not 1, then making sure i have it patched.

dont believe me? crysis, me, bioshock, psychonauts, and a bunch of other games, i bought on the steam sale just so i dont have to get the stupid disc out.

This isn't an argument; this is exactly what I'm talking about. This is precisely why Steam is winning, and everybody understands that. What I'm getting at is that nobody seems to be thinking or talking about the changes in perception that need to come along with giving so much control over our gaming to online retailers. You're kind of making my point for me by (apparently) denying that these potential problems exist while telling me what I already know about how great Steam is. ;)

[nabokovfan87]

Of course that's what it says - Steam very much wants you to feel that you own the games you purchase. Makes people feel comfortable. But from a practical standpoint, it simply is not true.

Go take a look at the "Subscriber Agreement (http://store.steampowered.com/subscriber_agreement/)" for Steam

i get what your saying, but what i meant, without saying it, was just that from my perspective this is how things are. i dont see them as a subscription. it isnt an mmo where each month i pay 10 bux, its a game i bought online. you have to keep in mind steam was the first one to do it, and before video on demand, tv shows, movies, music, it was all just up in the air. u have the whole napster thing happening, then itunes, and steam comes around to cut down on half-life 2 being pirated.

let me get my argument across with another example, the psn agreemment has been revised once a year, meaning, each year users either lose or gain rights on that platform. there is no control over it, or any say by the users as to how they feel about this. For some reason i dont see steam as the type of thing where down the road i will lose my games. as i mentioned the tab is called "my games" for a reason. i dont feel it is being blind to the facts when i bring that up, but just a matter of how i feel about that particular company.

as for backing things up, i can always copy my steam folder, the issue isnt backing up, its authentication.

[Ravenlock]

When you say things like "from my perspective this is how things are. i dont see them as a subscription." and "For some reason i dont see steam as the type of thing where down the road i will lose my games.", you aren't getting an argument across. That's not an argument, it's a feeling. Valve sees your purchases as subscriptions, regardless of how you see them. I'm sure they don't plan to cancel those subscriptions - it'd be really bad for business - but there's no argument over whether or not they could. We all agreed that they could when we signed up.

And I understand how you feel, I just don't see it as a refutation of what I'm saying. I like Valve a lot, as a company. I like Steam a lot, too. I've given them a lot of my money. I'm not suggesting that there's anything nefarious about them, or that they're trying to trick anyone or rip anyone off. After all, the subscriber agreement is there for everyone to read, even though very few people do.

All I'm saying is that with physical media, as people usually think of it (though with games that now require an online connection to authenticate even if you have the DVD, this isn't true anymore), you had a disc that was going to work as long as the physical media held up. When I bought Diablo II, I could know that 10 years down the road, I could put that disc into a machine and boot it up, and I could still play the game I bought. And it does work. That sort of assurance simply doesn't come with digital distribution purchases on any network. To run with your PSN example, I own a few XBox Live Arcade titles on the 360. Once Microsoft moves to a new console generation, I have no expectation that those will come along for the ride. I would view the PSN similarly, if I had a PS3.

Honestly, though, it sounds like you and I don't have that big a disagreement. You're saying "I don't believe Steam would ever revoke access to my games", and I'm saying "I don't either, but they could, and it's possible to imagine a situation where it happens." There are a whole bunch of people out there who I'm sure haven't even considered the possibility, and I think that's an awareness shift that needs to happen.

There was another side to our speculation about Steam specifically where I said that I could see them in the future switching potentially to a subscription payment model where you pay a fee to get everything, rather than continue to just increase the number of games they carry for individual sale indefinitely. That was just a wild guess as to what might happen, though, and is probably pretty unlikely because of all the publishers who would need to agree to it - if Steam is still around in 10 more years, we'll find out. But people who are saying "of course it will still be around!" should keep in mind that it's only been around right now for 6. Gaming has changed rapidly enough over the last decade that there are no "sure thing" statements about the next one, IMO.

[nabokovfan87]

To run with your PSN example, I own a few XBox Live Arcade titles on the 360. Once Microsoft moves to a new console generation, I have no expectation that those will come along for the ride. I would view the PSN similarly, if I had a PS3.

Honestly, though, it sounds like you and I don't have that big a disagreement. You're saying "I don't believe Steam would ever revoke access to my games", and I'm saying "I don't either, but they could, and it's possible to imagine a situation where it happens." There are a whole bunch of people out there who I'm sure haven't even considered the possibility, and I think that's an awareness shift that needs to happen.

i think the difference here is seperating steam from valve from half-life.

as you said with the console stuff, when the new console comes out you expect to lose your stuff. with steam i dont see that happening at all, i dont see valve going out of business and taking steam with it, i have the feeling that steam/valve will pass the torch in the situation that that happens. be it, developers, or just some other company, i get the feeling that pc devs along with the gamers enjoy what steam does so much that both together will do whatever it takes to keep it going.

[Ravenlock]

All of that is fine. As I keep pointing out, "I don't see [x] happening...", "I have the feeling...", etc are not logical arguments. You may be right, but you're just guessing and hoping. It is not a guess to say that we could lose access to our Steam games in the future. It is a fact, written right into the agreement we all signed.

I certainly hope it doesn't happen, and I'm not even saying it's likely to happen. But I believe it is worth talking about the possibility, because it's a new potential problem that didn't previously exist and most people (case in point) don't seem to worry much about it, even as they hand hundreds of dollars over for these "subscriptions". So that's why I talked about it.

But I feel like we've kind of run this one into the ground, now, yeah? ;)

[BigJonno]

What scares me about that Tomb Raider shot is not how bad it looks now, but how good it looked at the time. Despite getting my Playstation fourteen years ago this Saturday, I refuse to think of anything from that era as old (because that would make me old) but goddamn it's awful.

[nabokovfan87]

But I feel like we've kind of run this one into the ground, now, yeah? ;)

ugh.... it is an argument. it is just the language and tense that i type in that makes it weak and not as strong as saying:

valve will not go out of business because of xxxxxxxxx.

anywho, lets just not have the agreefest next show where everyone goes "yep you said it".

its not as black and white as you either own your games, its a matter of perception that will shape how things are treated in the future. meaning, on psn/xbl i am willing to bet that the new consoles will not carryover the stuff, while with steam, 5 years down the line, i see no issue with windows 8 and being able to play counter-strike and torchlight.

[Ravenlock]

I didn't say it wasn't an argument, I said it wasn't a logical one. Because it isn't.

As for the "agreefest", my fellow podcasters disagree with me about lots of things all the time. Just, apparently, not about this.

[kyrieee]

Was there actually a mention of Dwarf Fortress or was it just in the show notes?

I didn't catch it

[Ravenlock]

It was not mentioned - I intended to and totally forgot. But I couldn't post the show notes without including that link. ;)

[nabokovfan87]

I didn't say it wasn't an argument, I said it wasn't a logical one. Because it isn't.

As for the "agreefest", my fellow podcasters disagree with me about lots of things all the time. Just, apparently, not about this.

lol.

it happens more then you think.

[Vigil80]

Strong offering, as usual. I'll avoid getting mired in the subject matter that, between the show and this thread, has been thoroughly examined. Suffice to say some strong points were raised.

Warren seemed to add some joie de vivre. It did the show good.

The new new intro music is not as good as the old new intro music, I think.

[Voodoo]

Strong offering, as usual. I'll avoid getting mired in the subject matter that, between the show and this thread, has been thoroughly examined. Suffice to say some strong points were raised.

Warren seemed to add some joie de vivre. It did the show good.

The new new intro music is not as good as the old new intro music, I think.

Thanks! Yeah for the times that Warren shows up, he makes his presence very well known. For the intro music, I'm experimenting a bit to see if that one piece I put together is definitely the best. ;) I'm working on another piece for the next episode, which should be up very soon.

[jpublic]

When do you guys do these podcasts? I'd like to participate.

[Voodoo]

When do you guys do these podcasts? I'd like to participate.

We record mostly on Tuesday nights starting at 9PM EST. The recording usually lasts 2 to 3 hours. You're definitely welcome and we do the entire thing via Skype. I'll let you know when the next recording will be.

[Vigil80]

Holy crap, no way is it that simple. :P

[Voodoo]

Holy crap, no way is it that simple. :P

Yup! It is that simple. :) Just gotta ask and we'll have you on. There was one recording which there were 7 people present. :eek:

[Ravenlock]

I don't think we'd like to have 7 people on every time, necessarily. But certainly we'll be happy to get people in who want to participate as well as we can. ;)