Sci-Fi Idea Help/Critique

[Ink Asylum]

So I've had an idea for a sci-fi short story or young adult book bouncing around in my head for the last month or so, actually inspired by an offhand post here on the forums. Anyway, my limited scientific knowledge is making it hard for me to just think things through, so I thought I'd throw some of the ideas out here. I'd love some critique of the ideas themselves, but also if someone could point me towards a handy online resource for calculating some of the numbers as well, that'd be great. I don't mind getting things wrong in favor of plot, but I'd like to get some things right.

First things first, it's a story about an interstellar colonization ship. It would be a big ship, capable of comfortably housing between 1-4k people for over a decade of active life and potentially hundreds of years of stasis. It will have significant storage for machines, vehicles, supplies, and raw resources to be used to colonize a new planet. Essentially it would be a small city ship. What would be a comparable vessel I could use to judge sizes. The first thing I picture is the Axiom from Wall-E.

In my story there isn't faster than light travel, so they're getting to their destination the slow way. I'd like the complete one-way trip to take between a couple hundred and a thousand years. This will happen in four phases:


Acceleration from Earth to a cruising speed. This would take years or decades. During this time the colonists will not be active so G-forces will not be a concern.
Cruising speed. A long period of relative quiet, during which the ship will drift at a high speed, covering the distance to the destination star (probably one within 20 light years) in a few centuries. Crew activity minimal, probably shifts of a few days/weeks every decade.
Intense deceleration. Essentially the reverse of stage 1.
1G Deceleration. This is the important part. At a certain point the ship will slow their deceleration to just 1G. It will maintain this rate for the last 18 years of the trip. This will provide regular gravity for the crew as they prepare for colonization over the years.

Due to the scale of the ship and the time that will be spent using thrust the power source will clearly be some kind of unobtanium. What I'd like to figure out are some basic formulas to compute a reasonable cruising speed to cover ~20 light years in a couple centuries and how long it would take to accelerate/decelerate. I have some other ideas I'd like to float but figure I'd get the raw math stuff out of the way first. Suggestions are always welcome!

[frederec]

Hurricane Moon (http://www.amazon.com/Hurricane-Moon-Alexis-Glynn-Latner/dp/1591025451/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1263481836&sr=8-1) deals with a lot of those similar concepts. I'm sure there are other examples out there that are hard sci-fi. This one is a little more concerned with the long-term effects of cryogenic stasis, but it does talk about the slower than light long term colonization efforts.

[NotJeff]

What I'd like to figure out are some basic formulas to compute a reasonable cruising speed to cover ~20 light years in a couple centuries and how long it would take to accelerate/decelerate. I have some other ideas I'd like to float but figure I'd get the raw math stuff out of the way first. Suggestions are always welcome!

Fun facts of relevance:

1 light year = roughly 9.5 x 10^15 meters.
To travel 20 light years in 200 years requires a mean speed of .1c or about 3 x 10^7 m/s
To accelerate to .1c at 1g (9.8 m/s/s) would take 35.4 days.


So, someone should check me, but it sounds like your ship could accelerate at 1g for roughly a month, cruise for roughly 200 years, and decelerate at 1g for roughly a month and come to a stop about 20 light years away.


edit: This ignores time dilation effects as one approaches relativistic speed. See this site for some attainable locations with 1g cruising (as opposed to zero-g). http://www.daviddarling.info/encyclopedia/O/one-g_spacecraft.html

edit edit: Time dilation looks almost negligible at a tenth the speed of light. You could make the same trip at much shorter time by spending the whole trip accelerating and decelerating, but then you'd achieve much higher speeds and WOULD worry about time dilation.

[civil]

I can't comment about the science, but I like the idea you've outlined so far.

[NotJeff]

Acceleration from Earth to a cruising speed. This would take years or decades. During this time the colonists will not be active so G-forces will not be a concern.
1G Deceleration. This is the important part. At a certain point the ship will slow their deceleration to just 1G. It will maintain this rate for the last 18 years of the trip. This will provide regular gravity for the crew as they prepare for colonization over the years.


Corrolaries to the real math: It's impossible to accelerate at 1G for years or decades of objective time. You'd reach the speed of light in just under a year. You can accelerate at 1G for an infinite amount of ship time, and never hit the speed of light, due to time dilation. No matter how much ship time you accelerate at 1G for, this will take under a year of objective Earth-time.

This also means that to decelerate at 1G for 18 years of objective Earth time is impossible. To decelerate from 1G for 18 years of ship time (which by relativity must take less than one year of objective time), you have to be coming from a VERY specific speed, which in a hard sci-fi world would dictate travel time or distance. You simply cannot travel 20 light years in 200 years and then spend 18 shiptime years decelerating. Sorry.

[civil]

Hmm. Have you consulted Jeff on this matter? He might see things differently.

[boratika]

I just bought a new whiteboard today, and, on account of you, it already has space travel diagrams/calculations on it. Turns out I should have bought a bigger board.


That is to say that I'll give the calculations a bash (but no promises...) My brain has been woefully underutilised so far this summer and this could be fun. Though of course, other, less fun obligations will likely interfere. I try to post any calculations I do end up doing in case anyone wants to collude on them.

Aside from notJeff's comments, I have a couple of calrifications to ask about:

-Presumable point 4 implies that pseudo gravity is not in wide use on the ship. Yes?
-Is the ship intended to make planetfall, or will it stay in orbit?
-Presumably when you say 1G, this implies the new planet has a similar mass and radius to Earth?
-and this
Due to the scale of the ship and the time that will be spent using thrust the power source will clearly be some kind of unobtanium.
is it relevant to you whether or not something is ejected to accelerate the ship?

[NotJeff]

Hmm. Have you consulted Jeff on this matter? He might see things differently.

consider my response to you to be the finger

your post practically answers itself. :)

[Ink Asylum]

Thanks for the book recommendation. I might pick it up just to read a good description of such a journey.

Also thanks to NotJeff for those figures and the link. I had no idea it'd take so little time accelerating to reach suitable cruising speeds. If I'm reading that page right, my "1g for 18 years to simulate gravity" idea would mean way too much distance would have to be traveled. Since the chart measures round trip time, 18 years of relative time spent decelerating would be at least 36 relative years for a one way trip and 72 on their round trip chart. Which would be over 5 million years passing on Earth and a potential destination in the Andromeda Galaxy!

That's far too little time passing on the ship and far too great a distance to suit my story ideas. Looks like I'll have to settle for something similar to NotJeff's idea of just a month of acceleration/deceleration and some other method of simulating gravity.

So, what are the best non-handwave methods of simulating gravity?

EDIT: I was responding to NotJeff's first post and he came to the same conclusion as I eventually did in his second.

[boratika]

You could go with pseudo-gravity to prepare the crew... it's just a matter of figuring out a reason for it to be limited...

[NotJeff]

I try to post any calculations I do end up doing in case anyone wants to collude on them.

is it relevant to you whether or not something is ejected to accelerate the ship?

If you're willing to do the calculus to figure out actual shipboard reference times, more power to you.

Isn't it not relevant given the problem as posed whether his ship loses mass from fuel over time? He's specified an acceleration, which means that the energy requirements change to maintain the same acceleration, right? Unless you're selflessly offering to figure out what sort of energy density is required in his fuel. You're a better man than I.

[NotJeff]

So, what are the best non-handwave methods of simulating gravity?


Rotating a chunk of the ship and using centrifugal force is the old standby. You'll need to think about the radius of the section that's rotating -- since the gravity is different at different radii, if you make it too small the gravity can be noticably higher at your feet than at your head. Probably a nonissue in a ship with a capacity for thousands? Probably? Run the numbers. :)

[Ink Asylum]

I just bought a new whiteboard today, and, on account of you, it already has space travel diagrams/calculations on it. Turns out I should have bought a bigger board.

This is a lot more than I expected! Glad to have my problem entertaining you.

-Presumable point 4 implies that pseudo gravity is not in wide use on the ship. Yes?

I was hoping to avoid a generic pseudo-gravity technology that you find in so much sci-fi. If deceleration based gravity is impossible over that period of time my next avenue is rotational gravity. I get the feeling I'm going to have to settle for pseudo gravity at some point, though.

-Is the ship intended to make planetfall, or will it stay in orbit?

The ship is built in orbit around Earth and intended to orbit the new planet, though this might not be what actually happens. :)

-Presumably when you say 1G, this implies the new planet has a similar mass and radius to Earth?

Pretty much. It'll be pretty Earth-like, though I'm considering something a bit different to allow for an alien environment. I was fond of the Red Mars series and how the reduced gravity on Mars led to a generation of native-Mars-humans that were taller and more agile as a result. So a .75g planet is conceivable.

is it relevant to you whether or not something is ejected to accelerate the ship?

I don't see it as a dealbreaker. Though they'd still need to decelerate eventually.

[NotJeff]

Here's another gravity idea - instead of using rotation, have the ship reach it's cruise speed, and then alternate periods of 1G acceleration in different directions. So, get to .1c, and then spend 24 hours accelerating. During ship "night", spend a brief weightless period, spin the ship around, and spend 24 hours decelerating (so that ship "down" when there is gravity is consistent). Next night, go weightless again, nose forward again, and spend the next day accelerating. Energy costs are enormous (constant acceleration with no change in mean speed) but if you require it to be a real method without using rotation, there it is.

[Ink Asylum]

Rotating a chunk of the ship and using centrifugal force is the old standby. You'll need to think about the radius of the section that's rotating -- since the gravity is different at different radii, if you make it too small the gravity can be noticably higher at your feet than at your head. Probably a nonissue in a ship with a capacity for thousands? Probably? Run the numbers. :)

Considering the size of the potential ship a large rotating ring of living spaces around a central core of storage, engines, etc that doesn't need gravity could work.

I might as well let you guys in on why the 18 years number is so important. It's my big hook for the story so I've been keeping it close to the chest, but I don't see much harm sharing it here.

I was going to avoid the problems of cryogenic suspension of a live crew of thousands for hundreds of years by making it so that the ship actually launches with thousands of frozen embryos. For most of the travel time the ship is almost completely unmanned. At 18 years from their destination the embryos will be unfrozen and artificially raised in four batches a year apart, so by the time they reach the planet you have ~4000 people ranging from 15-18 that have been taught and trained under specific conditions to make a colony work. Hence the young adult angle. Kind of a Hogwarts in space.

Naturally, this creates a slew of other problems to solve, but I wanted to settle on a time of travel and destination before I got too deep into other issues.

[Doctor Setebos]

I always just use the same methods John Scalzi employs: all of his ships move at the "speed of plot." :D I need to dig up his actual quote.

[frederec]

I might as well let you guys in on why the 18 years number is so important. It's my big hook for the story so I've been keeping it close to the chest, but I don't see much harm sharing it here.


Oooh, sounds like the perfect opportunity for a young kid to accidentally grow old while everyone else stays in stasis. Makes me want to go watch Thundercats.

(Sorry, I'm not taking the thread as seriously as everyone else. Don't worry about me)

[Ink Asylum]

I'm playing around with a number of ideas for things that can go wrong. Someone being born early is one. Someone finding some way to stay active on the ship for much, if not all, of the journey is another.

[Jeffool]

Hmm. Have you consulted Jeff on this matter? He might see things differently.I assure you, I do not. I trust NotJeff as much as I do not trust myself.

[NotJeff]

I assure you, I do not. I trust NotJeff as much as I do not trust myself.

You ffool.

[nnanji]

Is it important that the crew be fully grown when they arrive? If so, consider having the ship decelerate to a non-relativistic speed somewhat outside the solar system and spin up the habitat ring and decant the children while they make final approach to the planet.

Alternatively, consider that an Earth-like planet doesn't mean that is is Earth-ready, by which I mean that soil conditions, atmospheric conditions, etc. aren't going to make the planet ready to just drop off a few million crop seeds and have them start to grow. Maybe the ship could make orbit and establish the 18 year living situation while robotic terra-formers prepare the planet for colonization. Then the children could grow up learning about the work being done on-site and they could specialize their training to suit actual on the ground conditions.

[Cactaur]

At 18 years from their destination the embryos will be unfrozen and artificially raised in four batches a year apart, so by the time they reach the planet you have ~4000 people ranging from 15-18 that have been taught and trained under specific conditions to make a colony work. Hence the young adult angle. Kind of a Hogwarts in space.

Teenagers will be teenagers no matter the upbringing... I'd expect them to try and get drunk and make out at first opportunity, screw responsibility. Guess that's where the conflict in the story would come from.

[Ink Asylum]

Hmmm...that's a good option.

Considering the distance from Earth to the target planet they wouldn't know that much about the planet when they arrived. My original idea included robotic probes which would be sent out to take readings and retrieve samples in order to incorporate that data into the development of the crew, even genetically modifying the embryos and exposing the babies/young children to replicated planetary atmosphere/plants/animals to cater their immune systems to the new ecosystem.

The probes, being much smaller and lighter, would be able to make numerous round trips to the planet and back to the colony ship both before the first batch of kids were born and up until they reached the planet. Since 18 years is such a small amount of time in the grand scheme of things, considering the relative time of the trip and the actual time passed in Earth years, it might make more sense for the ship to make orbit around a prospective planet before the first embryos are thawed out.

[Ink Asylum]

Teenagers will be teenagers no matter the upbringing... I'd expect them to try and get drunk and make out at first opportunity, screw responsibility. Guess that's where the conflict in the story would come from.

Exactly. It simply wouldn't be feasible to try to send thousands of frozen adults, so there's a risk placing the fate of the mission in the hands of teenagers, but there would likely be procedures in place trying to keep them in line.

I haven't settled on exactly who or what will be raising them. Options include:

Complete automation, with the only "parent" being the ship's artificial intelligence.
A fleet of clearly artificial robotic parents with or without distinct artificial intelligences and personalities.
Robotic parent androids meant to pass as humans. The kids can be either aware or unaware that their parents are robots.
A limited number of adults, up to a couple dozen, that were put into stasis. Due to the limits of technology and the need to cater the children to a new environment, this wasn't an option for the necessary thousands needed for colonization.
Some combination of the above.

Each one provides specific story and conflict opportunities.

[NotJeff]

Complete automation, with the only "parent" being the ship's artificial intelligence.
A fleet of clearly artificial robotic parents with or without distinct artificial intelligences and personalities.
Robotic parent androids meant to pass as humans. The kids can be either aware or unaware that their parents are robots.
A limited number of adults, up to a couple dozen, that were put into stasis. Due to the technology, this wasn't an option for the necessary thousands needed for colonization.
Some combination of the above.

Each one provides specific story and conflict opportunities.


All of the kids' real parents were stasified on board... with the knowledge that only about 5% of adults survive the process.
The real parents' personas are downloaded into ship's memory.

[Ink Asylum]

All of the kids' real parents were stasified on board... with the knowledge that only about 5% of adults survive the process.


Now that's dark! Lots of potential angst there if the mood of the book heads that way.


The real parents' personas are downloaded into ship's memory.


That's something I was considering for the robot-parents idea. Only instead of the parents of some of the embryos it would be the personalities of the scientists and other people that built and funded the project.

[Nuggsy]

Out of curiosity - does any of this computation have any bearing on the meat of the narrative?

[Ink Asylum]

Out of curiosity - does any of this computation have any bearing on the meat of the narrative?

Well, the meat of the narrative would start as the four "classes" of students enter either their last or next to last year of training before they're ready to go planetside. The computations have already had some effect in making me realize there's no real reason to try for the 18 year deceleration.

It's important to the narrative that the trip take much longer, relatively speaking, than a natural human lifespan so that it would necessitate sending frozen embryos rather than just a young crew. Ideally, I'm now looking at a relatively short acceleration/deceleration, along with a couple hundred relative years in transit. That gives me a range of stars within a couple dozen light years radius to pick from.

[Nuggsy]

I guess what I'm getting at is this: do all of these intricate details matter? Not so much the calculations, etc. It sounds as if you want to try and stay away from the FTL trope - more of a hard SF edge. If the story is good, then none of these little details will matter so much unless they are integral to the plot. Have you ever read The Black Cloud by Fred Hoyle? Great story, but there are lengthy discussions of mathematics in the book and they really detract, IMO, from the narrative.

Do the research, crunch the numbers, but don't spend more time on them then you need to.

[Voodoo]

Just my sort of topic! :)

The problem with intersteller space travel just so happens to not be the acceleration and deceleration. A major problem with interstellar space travel has to do with something to do with what I like to call vector drift. Vector drift has to be absolutely known when traveling between stars so that your navigational systems can change the trajectory accordingly. I hope this makes sense.

Essentially, you acquire the vector drift from the body/orbit that you left from. Unless you know what the vector drift was/is at the time that you departed (as it is constantly changing) then your interstellar navigation is going to be an ultra pain in the ass.

Gravity on the ship. Since this is SciFi let me propose a solution to the gravity bit that includes a little tinge of a theory I have. First let me explain that spinning a part of a space craft to simulate gravity is a very bad idea. This bad idea is very apparent once someone throws something up in the air. That object, be it a blueberry or softball, will not come back down. It will continue to fly about the area internally until striking something. Eventually it will come to rest on the sides due to centrifugal force.

How does my theory come into play? Well, gravity isn't caused by the mere presence of matter. Instead it is caused by a property of that matter. Let me see if I can explain this without sounding absolutely insane.

When the earth was forming, it was doing so via a chemical bonding process. To put the theory into its most basic, that chemical bonding process never stopped. More or less, the Earth is attempting to have a chemical reaction with everything around it causing this effect named gravity. There I said it and I warned you it is a theory of a crazed mind. Not sure how this would help you with gravity on the ship BUT it is an alternative train of thought you could possibly work with.

I'll add more as I think about your premise.

[Ink Asylum]

Interesting theory of gravity. As gravity remains one of the big unexplainable phenomenons in modern physics there are a lot of avenues that can be taken when coming up with artificial gravity. I've just been weighing my options with what we already know how to do before I go with something thoeretical.

[Voodoo]

Interesting theory of gravity. As gravity remains one of the big unexplainable phenomenons in modern physics there are a lot of avenues that can be taken when coming up with artificial gravity. I've just been weighing my options with what we already know how to do before I go with something thoeretical.

Sounds reasonable to me. What were you thinking of using for propulsion and energy generation?

[Thanasimos]

Essentially, you acquire the vector drift from the body/orbit that you left from. Unless you know what the vector drift was/is at the time that you departed (as it is constantly changing) then your interstellar navigation is going to be an ultra pain in the ass.

Gravity on the ship. Since this is SciFi let me propose a solution to the gravity bit that includes a little tinge of a theory I have. First let me explain that spinning a part of a space craft to simulate gravity is a very bad idea. This bad idea is very apparent once someone throws something up in the air. That object, be it a blueberry or softball, will not come back down. It will continue to fly about the area internally until striking something. Eventually it will come to rest on the sides due to centrifugal force.

It would have to be a very careful throw you make. Remember you're not throwing it up, but throwing it up within your reference frame; your "up" is going to be at an angle between the axis and the tangent to your point on the circle. In short, it will be moving toward another point on the floor. Since the floor is rotating, and you threw it straight up within your reference frame, which is a moving point on the circumference of the circle, its forward momentum will cause it to land on the same point of floor it was tossed from, which has been translated just as the object thrown has. You can throw it very hard, and in a small enough rotating object, it will land on the other side, but assuming reasonably small forces and inputs, everything will react in a manner which will mirror the force of gravity.

A throw which would leave the ball merely floating in space would have to exactly negate the velocity the ball is maintaining tangent to the circle, and put it into quasi-orbit. Throw it too hard, it'll wind up on the floor again -- throw it too soft, it'll wind up on the floor again. In the "Too hard" case, will appear to travel around the room more than once before hitting the ground, unless it's in a really hard case, in which case it will hit the ground before you make it back around the circle.

[Ink Asylum]

Sounds reasonable to me. What were you thinking of using for propulsion and energy generation?

I haven't settled on an idea yet. Accelerating a ship the size of a small town up to .1c, sustaining minor life support and other functions for a couple hundred years, then decelerating into a planetary orbit, followed by 18 years of regular activity clearly requires a massive expenditure of energy, beyond anything we currently have available. It'll definitely require some kind of special element. I'm leaving it open for now, as it's possibly unimportant to the plot. If I see a reason to make it plot relevant I can decide then.

What I'm more concerned about when it comes to thinking up pseudo-science is developing some kind of force, technology or enhanced abilities that the students will have access to in order to make the work of colonization more interesting. This is akin to the magic in Harry Potter or the Force in Star Wars, something cool to allow for fun action scenes and other escapism. This could tie into whatever generates energy for the ship, which is why I'm leaving that open for the time being.

There's a lot of moving parts in my head and I'm still tying them all together. I like the way Mass Effect draws a lot of its technology from the titular theory, from guns to FTL travel, then mixes in biotics to make it even flashier.

[Spectre-7]

Here's another possibility as far as your 18 years problem is concerned. Instead of having the ship on a course directly for the target planet, it could reach the intended solar system and take a tour of the outer planets, using transfer orbits and slingshots to lineup for the final approach.

Since your colonists will only have the one ship, this gives them a unique opportunity to investigate the other planets in their system before basically being trapped on their new world. It has some beneficial side effects, I think:


Provides the 18 years you want for the colonists to be born and raised before reaching the new planet, and gives it a purpose.
Allows your kids to study astrophysics, geology, etc. in the coolest school ever.
Gives advance probes launched from their ship time to fully map the new planet, and possibly perform some rudimentary terraforming or colony construction. Probes are possibly some variant of a Von Neumann machine, able to construct more of themselves on planet.
Gives you an opportunity to plot small adventures on the system's planets, moons and asteroids before the kids have to settle.

[Voodoo]

It would have to be a very careful throw you make. Remember you're not throwing it up, but throwing it up within your reference frame; your "up" is going to be at an angle between the axis and the tangent to your point on the circle. In short, it will be moving toward another point on the floor. Since the floor is rotating, and you threw it straight up within your reference frame, which is a moving point on the circumference of the circle, its forward momentum will cause it to land on the same point of floor it was tossed from, which has been translated just as the object thrown has. You can throw it very hard, and in a small enough rotating object, it will land on the other side, but assuming reasonably small forces and inputs, everything will react in a manner which will mirror the force of gravity.

A throw which would leave the ball merely floating in space would have to exactly negate the velocity the ball is maintaining tangent to the circle, and put it into quasi-orbit. Throw it too hard, it'll wind up on the floor again -- throw it too soft, it'll wind up on the floor again. In the "Too hard" case, will appear to travel around the room more than once before hitting the ground, unless it's in a really hard case, in which case it will hit the ground before you make it back around the circle.

As one of the astronauts (or whomever) is sitting in a chair, the only force placed upon them is a horizontal velocity which is perpendicular from the axis of rotation. If that person were to throw a blueberry up from their plate, that object would acquire a velocity which isn't present in the original body. It would acquire an acceleration from the toss towards the center of rotation, while retaining the original perpendicular horizontal velocity.

This would require that the person throw it at such a velocity to match their own vertical & horizontal movement within the given space due to their centrifugal rotation. Yes, I agree it can happen and that they'd have to be very careful with their throws. ;)

[Ink Asylum]

Here's another possibility as far as your 18 years problem is concerned. Instead of having the ship on a course directly for the target planet, it could reach the intended solar system and take a tour of the outer planets, using transfer orbits and slingshots to lineup for the final approach.

That's a cool idea. 18 years in a solar system is more than enough time to explore a number of planets and moons without moving at incredibly high speeds. It would kind of act like a cruise ship, with stops at the more interesting locations followed by periods of travel between them.


Allows your kids to study astrophysics, geology, etc. in the coolest school ever.

This is a big selling point. I'll cynically admit that part of what's driving me to work on this idea is that I think there's a lot of untapped potential in making space really appealing for young adults. Right now urban fantasy is the hot setting, between Harry Potter,Twilight and other series. Once I was inspired with the basic idea of raising kids on a colony ship the thought that it could be as cool and fun as "Harry Potter in SPAAAAACE!" was never far from my mind.

What I have to decide, though, is how much time I want to spend in the books before they get to the actual planet. If I turn this into a series will they reach the planet at the end of the first book? The second? How much is preparing and how much is actual colonization? That determines how much time I can spend writing about joyriding around the solar system.

[Voodoo]

Here's another possibility as far as your 18 years problem is concerned. Instead of having the ship on a course directly for the target planet, it could reach the intended solar system and take a tour of the outer planets, using transfer orbits and slingshots to lineup for the final approach.

Since your colonists will only have the one ship, this gives them a unique opportunity to investigate the other planets in their system before basically being trapped on their new world. It has some beneficial side effects, I think:


Provides the 18 years you want for the colonists to be born and raised before reaching the new planet, and gives it a purpose.
Allows your kids to study astrophysics, geology, etc. in the coolest school ever.
Gives advance probes launched from their ship time to fully map the new planet, and possibly perform some rudimentary terraforming or colony construction. Probes are possibly some variant of a Von Neumann machine, able to construct more of themselves on planet.
Gives you an opportunity to plot small adventures on the system's planets, moons and asteroids before the kids have to settle.



I like this idea a lot. There is also a great possibility of coming across objects and/or phenomena which do not exist within the solar system. Perhaps the story could be less about the destination and more about the experiences and cases of learning while on the journey. For instance, they could make a grand scientific discovery while en-route that changes conditions of the journey dramatically.

[Ink Asylum]

I'm glad I started this thread, and I hope you all don't mind my picking your brains. Having them grow up inside the solar system does allow for a lot more interesting ideas than spending eighteen years zipping through featureless space. It also means that rebel or renegade adults (in whatever form they take) or students can sneak off the ship early, setting up their own bases on the target planet or other planetary bodies before the main ship arrives.

[Thanasimos]

As one of the astronauts (or whomever) is sitting in a chair, the only force placed upon them is a horizontal velocity which is perpendicular from the axis of rotation. If that person were to throw a blueberry up from their plate, that object would acquire a velocity which isn't present in the original body. It would acquire an acceleration from the toss towards the center of rotation, while retaining the original perpendicular horizontal velocity.

This would require that the person throw it at such a velocity to match their own vertical & horizontal movement within the given space due to their centrifugal rotation. Yes, I agree it can happen and that they'd have to be very careful with their throws. ;)

I'm glad we agree, then, that it wouldn't be a bad idea, or at least not for the reason of thrown objects acting strangely.

[Voodoo]

I'm glad we agree, then, that it wouldn't be a bad idea, or at least not for the reason of thrown objects acting strangely.

Admittedly, the objects would act strangely if thrown in the same condition as someone throwing them on Earth. It would constantly land in front of of behind the seated person. Once the new way to throw objects was learned, it would come very naturally.

[Voodoo]

I haven't settled on an idea yet. Accelerating a ship the size of a small town up to .1c, sustaining minor life support and other functions for a couple hundred years, then decelerating into a planetary orbit, followed by 18 years of regular activity clearly requires a massive expenditure of energy, beyond anything we currently have available. It'll definitely require some kind of special element. I'm leaving it open for now, as it's possibly unimportant to the plot. If I see a reason to make it plot relevant I can decide then.

What I'm more concerned about when it comes to thinking up pseudo-science is developing some kind of force, technology or enhanced abilities that the students will have access to in order to make the work of colonization more interesting. This is akin to the magic in Harry Potter or the Force in Star Wars, something cool to allow for fun action scenes and other escapism. This could tie into whatever generates energy for the ship, which is why I'm leaving that open for the time being.

There's a lot of moving parts in my head and I'm still tying them all together. I like the way Mass Effect draws a lot of its technology from the titular theory, from guns to FTL travel, then mixes in biotics to make it even flashier.

Since you are starting to lean on the thought of a tour of the solar system, I'd recommend using hydrogen collection as a energy design of the ship. That way the ship could also be absorbing hydrogen as it makes its way around a spatial body. I'd also have the propulsion system completely electric driven. No flamables, explosives or any of that Von Braun stuff.

[Karak]

I'm playing around with a number of ideas for things that can go wrong. Someone being born early is one. Someone finding some way to stay active on the ship for much, if not all, of the journey is another.

America 2010 covers much of this in it's series.
Some of the better things it covers in a living ship where people are awake the entire time are
Adultery
Terrorismn
Murder and the reasons
Sabotage by goverments against the trip
Internal politics between Capt. and 2nd in command
Democracy(long trips cause issues that need to be decided)
Continued studies of current sciences
Growth and maturity of children
Weakness of spiritual connection to Earth
Animals and the part they play within humanity(never will a single dog have so much love as Jumper)

[Spectre-7]

This is a big selling point. I'll cynically admit that part of what's driving me to work on this idea is that I think there's a lot of untapped potential in making space really appealing for young adults. Right now urban fantasy is the hot setting, between Harry Potter,Twilight and other series. Once I was inspired with the basic idea of raising kids on a colony ship the thought that it could be as cool and fun as "Harry Potter in SPAAAAACE!" was never far from my mind.

Yeah, I kinda picked up that vibe and I thoroughly approve. I was a space kid myself, always begging my parents to send me off to space camp, while I dreamed of visiting alien planets and read every Tom Swift book I could find. I really dig where you're headed, and more power to you. :)

What I have to decide, though, is how much time I want to spend in the books before they get to the actual planet. If I turn this into a series will they reach the planet at the end of the first book? The second? How much is preparing and how much is actual colonization? That determines how much time I can spend writing about joyriding around the solar system.

It really depends on what sorts of stories you want to tell, and where you imagine them taking place. Were this my project, I'd probably aim for at least a couple books in space with a strong high school atmosphere, all the while building up the impending planetfall as something mysterious and kind of frightening. I feel like there's a strong parallel to be drawn between planetfall and graduation, where these young people are rapidly approaching a new world they know little about, and will be forced to abandon the insular world of their adolescence. It seems to be not only their new home, but also a rite of passage.

Following that train of thought, I'd expect the stories on the planet to be significantly more adult in nature. The fact that they've grown up in a world lacking in adults (if not devoid of them entirely) seems to leave space for a sort of Lord of the Flies struggle for civilization, and if this is coupled with some kind of super-human powers like you were mentioning earlier, I can see a very serious struggle looming.

[Ink Asylum]

America 2010 covers much of this in it's series.
Some of the better things it covers in a living ship where people are awake the entire time are

I think I've heard of that book before. I'll have to look it up if I proceed farther with this idea. I'm more interested in fooling around with fun sci-fi tech and planetary exploration than I am in deeply exploring the human psyche and sociology, but I would like to work some of that into the story.

I think the biggest theme would be conflict of identity. With a group of people growing up so far from Earth thre will be a constant struggle between the vision of the program's creators and the kids over what they should be doing.

It really depends on what sorts of stories you want to tell, and where you imagine them taking place. Were this my project, I'd probably aim for at least a couple books in space with a strong high school atmosphere, all the while building up the impending planetfall as something mysterious and kind of frightening. I feel like there's a strong parallel to be drawn between planetfall and graduation, where these young people are rapidly approaching a new world they know little about, and will be forced to abandon the insular world of their adolescence. It seems to be not only their new home, but also a rite of passage.

I can see a 4 or 6 book series with half dealing with the school and the other half how they actually colonize. Or I could do what others have suggested and actually never write much about how they actually colonize the planet. If the setting of the ship and the solar system is really interesting it might be better to just deal with the final results of the mission as more of an epilogue than the plot of a whole book.

[Crittias]

I'll be interested in seeing what direction you take this story, Ink.

In my most recent NaNo manuscript, I also explored the idea of colonizing a distant planet. I decided that accelerating a large ship with hundreds/thousands of colonists was completely impractical, so my starship was very small (a few hundred kilos, max) and stored the blueprints for the colonists as well as the necessary materials and blueprints for recreating everything the colonists would need (including...the colonists) once the ship arrived at its destination.

As a twist, I decided that most humans wouldn't want to be downloaded into a tiny starship, stored in computer memory for hundreds of years, and then dropped into a clone body. So the humans that are stored in the starship believe that they're in a ship much like you're describing: large, livable, super-fast. And when they finally wake up in their clone bodies on the new planet, a replica of said starship is floating in orbit, to support the fake memories.

Lots of other twists to my story (the details above are just color, really), but those are the ones that relate to your tale. If you want/need a reader or a soundboard, drop me a private message!

[Kenturion]

Accelerating a ship the size of a small town up to .1c, sustaining minor life support and other functions for a couple hundred years, then decelerating into a planetary orbit, followed by 18 years of regular activity clearly requires a massive expenditure of energy, beyond anything we currently have available. It'll definitely require some kind of special element. I'm leaving it open for now, as it's possibly unimportant to the plot. If I see a reason to make it plot relevant I can decide then.

Since you are starting to lean on the thought of a tour of the solar system, I'd recommend using hydrogen collection as a energy design of the ship. That way the ship could also be absorbing hydrogen as it makes its way around a spatial body. I'd also have the propulsion system completely electric driven. No flamables, explosives or any of that Von Braun stuff.

Going along these lines, what about some form of ramscoop or ramjet (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bussard_ramjet)? Have the ship pick up the necessary fuel for deceleration / system exploration / course adjustments en-route. Since you're launching the colony ship from what is obviously a fairly advanced civilization (argued by the ship's existence :)), explaining where the fuel for launch came from could be glossed over. Just a thought.

The whole concept of the story sounds awesome, though - I really like where you're going with it.

[Ink Asylum]

Thanks for all the great feedback and ideas!

I've had good luck with daily projects so far. It's great producing even a little bit of content just so you keep yourself in practice. I already have two going but I'm thinking I might start a writing one as well for this project. I was thinking that I'd start a blog run by the students, with different ones posting every day. I could use this to explore ideas as seen through the eyes of the students. If I do I'll post a link here.

[Hotcod]

I haven't settled on an idea yet. Accelerating a ship the size of a small town up to .1c, sustaining minor life support and other functions for a couple hundred years, then decelerating into a planetary orbit, followed by 18 years of regular activity clearly requires a massive expenditure of energy, beyond anything we currently have available. It'll definitely require some kind of special element. I'm leaving it open for now, as it's possibly unimportant to the plot. If I see a reason to make it plot relevant I can decide then.

What I'm more concerned about when it comes to thinking up pseudo-science is developing some kind of force, technology or enhanced abilities that the students will have access to in order to make the work of colonization more interesting. This is akin to the magic in Harry Potter or the Force in Star Wars, something cool to allow for fun action scenes and other escapism. This could tie into whatever generates energy for the ship, which is why I'm leaving that open for the time being.

An dirty and not exactly hard sifi answer to both of them is the wonder that is zero point energy or more Vacuum energy. The reason they are not hard sific is that there is no real away to use it and i'm not even sure it would provide enough energy to do very much. But if you want to go with the idea that they have a way to drawing power from it then you have an unlimited renewable source of power.

The reason I say it's an answer to both is that I've long had an idea that exist along the lines of 'biotics' in mass effect. That a person is injected with some nano machines that are able to access a small amount some form of universe energy (in this case ZPE) and then through links made by the machines with the brain can be used in different ways. It's a technological answer to magic in essence. What you can do with it is just limitted by how unhard sific you are willing to go

If you want it to be more fun then you really have to deal with force fields and even artificial gravity. Since you can then have people throwing stuff around :)

[Ink Asylum]

So after a failed start on one story for NaNoWriMo I've decided to pursue this idea instead. Thanks again to everyone for all the great advice and brainstorming. I have to do some quick outlining and world building before I start writing tonight, so I've been bouncing a lot of ideas around in my head. Here are some of the details I've settled upon:


4 "grades" of 100 students each were thawed out a year apart. The first grade is just turning 15 as the story begins and entering the high-demand part of their schooling/training.
There are still thousands of embryos in stasis waiting for a successful starter colony so there's no pressure of raising kids as the first colonists get settled.
There was a small adult crew, about one or two dozen, that would be in cryo for ten years, awake to make sure everything was running smoothly for a week, then go back to sleep.
Something happened to this crew at some point as a result of sabotage or dispute, killing all with possibly one survivor.
The computer AI, originally lacking in personality, decided to incorporate the routine brain scans of the crew into its programming to make up for their absence.
The adult section of the ship was purposefully sealed away from the kids section, as the kids would be growing up in air replicating the conditions of the destination planet, including any airborne diseases, so they would be immune. As such, there was never going to be any physical contact between adults and kids.
This also allows the AI to simulate the crew as holograms in order to provide the kids with some form of adult interaction, though it naturally won't be perfect. The kids won't know the difference at first.
The ship hops spends the last 18 years of its voyage cruising towards, then exploring the new solar system, sending out probes and scout teams to prepare both the colonists and the planet.


In addition, I'm brainstorming a couple forms of technological abilities for the students to use. Typically, a student will be physically modified and trained for one particular form of tech. Essentially, they're schools of magic with specific uses. Here are my ideas so far:


Mental/Tech Integration: A student is fitted with a universal port that allows them to control various tech, from small handheld devices to large mech suits, as easily as controlling their own hands. Useful for engineering types.
Hard Light Manipulation: A student has implants in their hands that allow them to form and shape light into physical shapes. A mix of Green Lantern and holograms. Useful for construction and defense.
Extended Senses: A student lives with a colony of nanomachines in their body. While heightening their natural senses they can also spread the cloud into their surroundings, forming a network that allows them to know a lot about the immediate area, communicate mentally with anyone nearby, etc. Technological telepathy. Useful for people in leadership and command roles.
Physical Enhancement: A student's physical abilities are enhanced to superhuman levels for brief periods of time by a rechargable energy source inside their body. They are fit in daily life but when necessary can push their strength, speed, stamina, etc into overdrive. Useful for manual labor and combat.

As I look at these ideas I think I can tie them all into nanomachines in some way. I'm thinking every student will receive a specialized nanomachine cocktail when they enter their first year of specialized training. Hmm...have to think on this.