Roleplaying Bad Habits

[Karak]

What bad habits do you or your players have that just infuriate you?

This came up this last weekend when I caught myself comparing things with the words. "it's like". I must have done it 30 times. I was annoying even to myself.

Some of the other bad habits:

I have a player who eats constantly. He weighs 120 pounds and eats everything in sight. Every hour is also an entire meal. We have had to actually decide on a schedule for eating so that this doesn't stop game flow.

I catch myself thinking about other things sometimes. Video games and so forth and have to pull myself into the game.

I have a rules lawyer who I have pretty much disbarred:) But every once in awhile he will get into an encounter and when it comes to his turn he will start saying:

"If this happens I do this."
"If this other thing happens I do this"
"If another thing happens I do this"
Basically he tries to preload the encounter with every possible idea as if he has 6th sense.

[Lint of Death]

1. Ugh... my group has a serious problem with cell phones. I want to punch everyone. Example from this weekend, a session I was running: I was building up to the end of the session with a climactic, everything-changes sort of event. Basically the archtypical disaster/betrayal where a videogame jams you onto the grill of the bus from Tutorial Town to Serious City.

Just as I'm trying to start this sequence, BZZT BZZZT beep beep BZZZZZZZZZT. All three players' cell phones start going off with text messages. One apologizes sincerely and puts it away (you rule, new guy), the other two start typing away to respond. This happens a couple times within the span of one or two minutes, and I again insist "PLEASE, turn off your phones."
One of them agrees to silence his (yay). The other says he can't turn his off in case someone important needs to reach him. I insist again, "please, then at least put it on silent or vibrate, and put it away." Maybe 5 minutes later (or less), the same guy's flipped his phone out and is panning it slowly around the room.

"What the hell are you doing" several of us say. His response? "I'm looking at you through my phone." And then he actually tried to defend this as if this wasn't a problem.

I am by no means a violent person, but, doesn't just reading that make you want to clock him?

2. One of the others - the one who got us into the weekly thing in the first place, who these days tends to cancel near-to last minute (or several hours after last minute) because he doesn't want to get out of bed to meet us at noon (or even 3PM...) - distracts everyone with entirely unrelated conversations the moment the DM at the time pauses to record initiative or gather figurines. He doesn't do this when he runs the game, and has strict rules about no laptops/cell phones, and then breaks all of it whenever he doesn't run things.

2.5 If he's not running the game, because he's the 'experienced one' who has played for years, he starts throwing it around telling whoever the DM might be how to rule certain things. It's not even rules lawyering, and he even does it with me, even though his campaign and the others are 3.5 and mine is 4e. Example: He rolled the same initiative (with the same modifier) as one of my NPCs for a combat; I told him that, given the circumstances, he could act first, but he insisted on doing an opposed d20 roll for that privelege. Hell, even if the NPC had won that opposed roll, I was going to delay its turn anyway.

[/RANT RANT RANT RANT]

[Panthera]

Oh, man. I'm always trying to break bad habits for both myself and a couple of my players.

I've got one guy in the game who we call 'the computer'. He'll work out the most ideal way to approach a situation and the safest, perfect tactics every round, and he'll usually be right. The reason this sucks is that the other players feel like they can't make any decisions, and I've been working harder to subtly remind him that this isn't Baldur's Gate and the other players aren't under his control.

My worst habit as a game master is in playing out encounters that should be just summarized. I've wasted way too much time in the banalities of, say, a visit to an elven market. I've gotten better, but it takes practice.

[Lint of Death]

My worst habit as a DM is probably forgetting to review. I excel at improv and am usually good at remembering the things I make up and figuring out tactics/enemy force composition on the spot, but I also plan quite a bit. Even though I've hosted maybe 6 or 7 sessions, I actually only 'prepared' for 2 or 3 and then just ended up with so much extra content that it lasts forever. Compound this with the number of weekends where we don't meet because we can't agree on a time - or we can but everyone else cancels last-minute - and there can be as much as a month or so between when I planned an encounter and when it is actually run. The end result is that I forget to review the totally sweet enemy I built and it ends up being an easy fight because I didn't remember my strategy as well as I thought I did, or I second-guess my original plans (another bad habit).

[Ink Asylum]

I have a few bad habits as a GM. I'm pretty good at recalling what we did the last few sessions but I have to get into the habit of writing a quick recap after we finish playing for the night. This would definitely help make sure nothing is forgotten as sometimes we go over a month between sessions.

[Karak]

My worst habit. Is surprising my players too much. I flesh out everything even the past of local shopkeepers. So sometimes the guys meet a bad guy and are like "WE ARE SCREWED".
The complaint I get about once every two months is that, they can never...be sure...what they are facing.
Normally that would be a kudo, but sometimes you want your feet under you.
So I gave them a normal bad guy, totally diehard type bad guy.
It took them forever to figure out he would be easily defeated. It was a blast.

Funny enough despite all the surprises we barely ever have player death.

[Shrinn]

Ink, I find the best way to handle that is to get into the habit of having your players recap last session before you start. That way, between them all, you get the overview of what happened and what parts stuck out in their mind.

When I'm roleplaying a character, I always forget to change my voice to the one I decided was my character's voice. It doesn't help that I'm terrible at voice overs.

As a DM, I always work out some neat personalities for my villains, but then I don't use them at all during the heat of combat. Encounters take so long because we have so many people that I get caught up in moving the action along to try to get to the story because that's what people seem to enjoy most, forgetting that part of the bad guy's personality is part of the story!

I also have trouble keeping a handle on my players, we kind of have a system where you can goof off (text, homework) during combat as long as you don't miss your initiative, but sometimes it just seems that no one wants to focus.

My worst habit is just typing up the encounters/story for the night last minute so everything becomes rushed and disorganized. Then I'm squeezing for space and trying to remember which monster blocks go with which encounter and it slows everything down.

Based off my encounters with you in TF2, Lint, I'd love to play in a game you DM.

[TheKeck]

Based off my encounters with you in TF2, Lint, I'd love to play in a game you DM.
It's quite an experience. ;)

[Lint of Death]

It's quite an experience. ;)

You don't even get to hear all of my silly character voices. Hamrick Dragonchewer is a fun one :p

[TheKeck]

My worst habit as a game master is in playing out encounters that should be just summarized. I've wasted way too much time in the banalities of, say, a visit to an elven market. I've gotten better, but it takes practice.
As a first time DM, I'm really struggling with this as well. Although, some fun and interesting things have come out of it, so it's a bit of a balancing act no matter what, I'm sure.

I just sometimes worry I'm boring my players.

(Feel free to chime in on this, players. :p)

[TheKeck]

You don't even get to hear all of my silly character voices. Hamrick Dragonchewer is a fun one :p

I am now crying. Thanks.

[Ink Asylum]

Perhaps the most frustrating part of my current game is that one player, although a great RPer, has taken their character in a direction where they aren't that useful in a fight.

Briefly, I use modified rules from White Wolf's Mage to run a campaign set in the universe of the Dresden Files. Magic is a lot more powerful since there's no paradox and encounters typically involve a lot of fancy spells and other feats of power.

We've been playing for a couple years, every month or so, and I'm a very generous GM. I give my players 3-5 XP depending on how long we play, but I also give them 10 or more "Free days" between stories which they can spend making rolls to add to their character's arsenal. They can make magical items, build up contacts and other backgrounds, etc, all without spending XP. They have to spend XP to increase stats, abilities, and magic levels, but otherwise I'm giving them the opportunity to become real badasses.

Three of my players go all out with this. They've enchanted their jackets/coats to resist all sorts of damage, made shield rings/pendants, and other useful devices. One character has souped up his classic car with some really fun enchantments that make it a beast on the road. Another makes an assortment of bats that are good for dealing with supernatural creatures.

One player, though, seems resistant to really powering up his character. Part of this is RP-based. His character is resentful of his parents, who are members of the big wizard council. He doesn't feel like part of the magical community and generally only engages in magical activities to help his friends or the city they live in. So while it makes sense that his character would spend his initial starting points on a more diverse spread of talents and magical schools, and spend his free time meeting new people and other similar activities, it means that his teammates have essentially "outleveled" him to the point where they can often stand toe-to-toe with 12 foor minotaurs or crazed warlocks while he deals a little damage around the edges and I subtly go easy on him, sending the big foes after the characters that can handle them.

Am I a bad GM for trying to subtly and sometimes explicitly nudge him towards spending more time and resources powering up his character? I see a lot of potential for him to become a spider-man type attacker, using the magical talents he has to buff up his agility and strength so that he can hit fast and disorient opponents. He's done a bit of that, but still often lags behind in heavy encounters.

Advice?

[Superman's Dead]

Lint is awesome. Also, ABSOLUTELY NUTS.

I've been roleplaying over the internet for years and years. My biggest beef is people who will write paragraphs about what their character is thinking. Which is cool, you should TOTALLY know what your character is thinking. But they end up having so much internal dialogue and staying stock still, so the other characters have no way of even knowing that the person was doing anything other than being in a coma.

Thoughts lead to expression, and the expression is what makes playing opposite a good writer so awesome.

[Karak]

Am I a bad GM for trying to subtly and sometimes explicitly nudge him towards spending more time and resources powering up his character? I see a lot of potential for him to become a spider-man type attacker, using the magical talents he has to buff up his agility and strength so that he can hit fast and disorient opponents. He's done a bit of that, but still often lags behind in heavy encounters.

Advice?

No and yes.
Your idea of what he may be, may not be what he wants.
Get with him and talk to him about his 3 goals.

We have the 3 goals rule in our game.
I personally think it is the most underused and yet most powerful rule set or idea ever.

2 short term goals(either easy to do in a single game, or short timed goals)
1 long term goal(weeks/months of game-time out, or something they want that costs maybe 40% of their resources)

As they make their goals, succeed, fail, go towards them and fight for them, you can get an idea more and more of what they are headed to.

I am surprised people all don't use the 3 goal system as it seems so easy to not only roleplay(As in it gives you ideas if your game is slowed down) and it allows people to check stuff off that they have done, just like real life.

6 months later you have that moment, where the player looks at all their goals and says...this piece of paper is a person. With the goals, successes and failures that a normal person has.
Examples of Short Team Goals:
Practice with my weapon
Follow up on NPC lead
Create a Tattoo design for a character
Decide if my current weapons fit with the way I play(in game thought of course)
Enjoy some entertainment(Defrag the mental hard drive- in game)

Long Term goals
Learn how to shoot from the hip(not just go buy the skill but roleplay that you want to learn, that you seek poeple who know how to do it, that you practice in game in the mirror)

Return to the NPC who gave me the good deal last time on a weapon, thank him again and return for goods

Get the tattoo inked that I have designed

Mod my current weapon by painting it, adding mods, removing extra parts, seeking the same manufacturer for another.

Decide on a best place for entertainment and become a regular there. Become known there, and begin to cultivate contacts.

All short goals do NOT need to lead to long goals like that.

[Karak]

I have a few bad habits as a GM. I'm pretty good at recalling what we did the last few sessions but I have to get into the habit of writing a quick recap after we finish playing for the night. This would definitely help make sure nothing is forgotten as sometimes we go over a month between sessions.
If one of the characters is a writer, or has some kind of scholarly study ask the player to write a fake diary about the progress. And use his notes.
It can sometimes let you see from their side of things and also allows a player to stretch his legs a bit.

I have one player who writes an "EMAIL" home.
But the email is to all the players.
And he pretends like he is talking to his crippled brother(also a plot device as he wants revenge against the guy who did it)
The email is written from the players standpoint to a brother. So awesome.

[Ink Asylum]

Thanks Karak. Good advice.

I've had a talk like that on a couple occasions, though not to the point of writing down plans. It's the long term goal that I think may be the biggest problem in the long run. He has a basic idea of one, but as a goal it doesn't really make him very powerful in a gameplay sense.

My game isn't full of munchkins, but the campaign does lean towards big conflicts that demand feats of impressive physical or mental abilities. His character, while serving as a great fit for the progression of the plot, becomes less useful when shit goes down.

What I worry about most is the rest of the team getting so powerful that he's reduced to a supporting character.

EDIT: That diary idea is pretty slick. I've been encouraging between-scenes blue-booking with my characters, to give them some extra XP and advance solo story lines, but again two characters have taken advantage while two have not.

[LongStepMantis]

Man, makes me glad to have played most of my PnP days before cell phones.

Our DM was a devious bastard though. I'm 100% certain his response to the kind of things mentioned (like abusing cell phones) would have been handled by a warning, and then he would just kill your character off. Probably throwing in a line like "There, now you can got talk on your phone all day in the other room." He was a dick, but he ran games extremely well.

[Nameless]

My game isn't full of munchkins, but the campaign does lean towards big conflicts that demand feats of impressive physical or mental abilities. His character, while serving as a great fit for the progression of the plot, becomes less useful when shit goes down.

What I worry about most is the rest of the team getting so powerful that he's reduced to a supporting character.

In that case, you should talk to him about this out of game. Tell him that it'd probably be a good idea to invest into some combat niche, or, if he does like making all these contacts, maybe he can make a strong connection with a powerful character that can fight alongside him, essentially giving him a combat follower (kind of how Michael helps Dresden in combat in the novels).

In general, I find the best strategy is to find something the character is good at and let him excel once a session or so, but sometimes when a character is particularly crippled relative the rest of the party, you've got to intervene, whether indirectly (talk to him out-of-game) or directly (he finds an ancestral sword of power that only he can use to full effect).

Either way, good luck. Nothing can kill a game like balance issues, I hope you find a way to work it out.

[Karak]

Thanks Karak. Good advice.

I've had a talk like that on a couple occasions, though not to the point of writing down plans. It's the long term goal that I think may be the biggest problem in the long run. He has a basic idea of one, but as a goal it doesn't really make him very powerful in a gameplay sense.

My game isn't full of munchkins, but the campaign does lean towards big conflicts that demand feats of impressive physical or mental abilities. His character, while serving as a great fit for the progression of the plot, becomes less useful when shit goes down.

What I worry about most is the rest of the team getting so powerful that he's reduced to a supporting character.

EDIT: That diary idea is pretty slick. I've been encouraging between-scenes blue-booking with my characters, to give them some extra XP and advance solo story lines, but again two characters have taken advantage while two have not.

Well sometimes power is knowledge. I am not understanding much about his character but a person who say does not want to embrace magic still needs to know how to defend it. Perhaps he is a knowledge base of old ancient ways to defend yourself but not actually use much magic yourself.

His longterm goal(and not actually known by the characters sometimes) would be to slowly embrace magic through aa arc of knowledge of old traditions.
Or his goal is to (slowly show others-players- that magic is not the only way to get out of things). I see him tapping his temple each time he gets out of a scrape as if to say, "Magic sometimes, brains all the time"

Short term goals could be to study ancient ways peasents defended against magic that somehow worked and employ them.

You as the DM must simply remember that power doesn't always come from throwing a fireball but when to. So perhaps he becomes the impetus for when actions occur. The guy yelling "now" at just the right time.

Remember the golden rule. Rules can be broken, the world can be broken.
Who doesn't remember the awesome foe you faced in a game or dnd that wasn't impacted by a spell or a normal weapon? Make your player be that person.

Imagine the enemy magic user casting a spell on him and watching him frown when your character is barely impacted. His very refusal to embrace magic is...magic.

Ah I am just rambling but its doable if I knew more.

Oh and try the diary. Works amazing.

[Karak]

What I worry about most is the rest of the team getting so powerful that he's reduced to a supporting character.

EDIT: That diary idea is pretty slick. I've been encouraging between-scenes blue-booking with my characters, to give them some extra XP and advance solo story lines, but again two characters have taken advantage while two have not.

Ok one more thing...that I don't even really want to write but...

You could also make him regret a lack of action.
Up-play the damage another player took due to him not acting, or a civilian, talk about the funeral, the glances of suspicion his way, perhaps another NPC slaps him because he could have saved a friend. They spit at him, they treat him poorly, they shame him(all with a light hand on this)

Its a...heavy way to do it. But sometimes, the player will see this and use it as a goal.

I am telling you though, always use the 3 goal system or something like it. It develops a life of its own that is almost magical in and of itself.

EDIT:

If two characters are taking advantage and two are not that is 50%. So I would say something is wrong and that the 2 not doing it need to have another project to encourage communication.
Ask them why.
Set up goals for them. If they are people who do NOT want to do stuff outside the game, fine. That happens.

[LongStepMantis]

Imagine the enemy magic user casting a spell on him and watching him frown when your character is barely impacted. His very refusal to embrace magic is...magic.


That's a great idea. Also, it reminds me of Flight of Dragons.
Yelling mathematical equations and laws of science to cripple magic users, optional. ;)

[Ink Asylum]

Thanks for all the advice. I'll try some of the ideas.

I try to balance the heavy action scenes with things like investigative work and social encounters, and he has shone at times during those. One of my upcoming scenes is going to be a neutral social gathering of alot of the big names in our campaign (like the vampire costume party in Dresden) that I think will encourage all the characters to have some fun.

I wish he lived closer, as I would love to sit him down for some one-on-one RP sessions to give him a little extra XP that should help him catch up, but it's an 1 1/2 hour train ride out to where he lives. He seems too busy to do so through e-mails.

[Karak]

That's a great idea. Also, it reminds me of Flight of Dragons.
Yelling mathematical equations and laws of science to cripple magic users, optional. ;)

Indeed.
One of my rules has always been, good is bad bad is good.
Characters seen as bad guys, bad guys as good guys, science trumps magic, magic trumps science. Magic is science. You can go on forever.

I just know that too often roleplaying becomes (I cant wait until I level up to buy this skill). Blarg.

Cultivation of goals leads to strength in rolelaying , it needs to be (I have studied this and this skill and now know it. I have learned from someone, I have watched someone)

The good guy has his montage and comes back to win the day, the bad guy leaves to buy more weapons.
But if you reverse it, and the bad guy trains and trains and the good guys just buy more helpers or weapons...the entire feel changes.

[Karak]

Thanks for all the advice. I'll try some of the ideas.

I try to balance the heavy action scenes with things like investigative work and social encounters, and he has shone at times during those. One of my upcoming scenes is going to be a neutral social gathering of alot of the big names in our campaign (like the vampire costume party in Dresden) that I think will encourage all the characters to have some fun.

I wish he lived closer, as I would love to sit him down for some one-on-one RP sessions to give him a little extra XP that should help him catch up, but it's an 1 1/2 hour train ride out to where he lives. He seems too busy to do so through e-mails.

Distance is the mind killer hahahahah.
Anyone who lives far away can have that kind of problem.
Try
Instant Messenger maybe?

I dealt with distance by having the far away people arrive 1 hour before everyone else. A full hour alone can work wonders.

[Ink Asylum]

If two characters are taking advantage and two are not that is 50%. So I would say something is wrong and that the 2 not doing it need to have another project to encourage communication.
Ask them why.
Set up goals for them. If they are people who do NOT want to do stuff outside the game, fine. That happens.

The two who don't say they're too busy. That's understandable. It's on me to fit in one-on-one scenes with them before or after the main RP session so they don't fall too far behind XP-wise, and I'll be doing that. I live with one of them, so it's really my laziness that's the problem.

The anti-magic idea could be a way to go. There's actually a secret attached to his character (the other players don't know about it) that could feed into that.

His character was conceived within close proximity to one of the Blackened Denarii coins. For those unfamiliar with the Dresden Files, those are the coins paid to Judas to betray Jesus. They're now inhabited by demons. Possessing a coin means sharing your body with a demon that can give you incredible powers but naturally steers you towards evil. Its influence over him is very faint, as he didn't actually touch it, and he (character, not player) has no idea that a shade of the demon has been riding with him his whole life.

This connection will come into play during the current story arc. His character has become more distant from his friends, and the demon will encourage that separation. By the end of the arc I want him to be tricked, possibly with the player's cooperation, into some form of betrayal. Nothing that can't be forgiven, as the hope is to have him beat the demonic influence in the end.

I could make use of that to give him increasing anti-magic powers and other enhancements that derive from the possession. Possessed people often transform into monstrous creatures. One way of curing the possession is for a mage to give up magic.

Perhaps I could make him an offer. If he wants to go that route he can do a character shake-up and lose all his magical spheres but receive a bunch of points which he can use to become a Badass Normal with anti-magic abilities. I think that could work, and this thread put the idea into my head, so thanks. :)

Also, for fans of The Dresden Files, during this arc one of my characters will likely be given Amoracchius and replace Michael as a Knight of the Cross. I told you I like to spoil my players.

[Karak]

I could make use of that to give him increasing anti-magic powers and other enhancements that derive from the possession. Possessed people often transform into monstrous creatures. One way of curing the possession is for a mage to give up magic.

Perhaps I could make him an offer. If he wants to go that route he can do a character shake-up and lose all his magical spheres but receive a bunch of points which he can use to become a Badass Normal with anti-magic abilities. I think that could work, and this thread put the idea into my head, so thanks. :)


No problem.
It actually looks like you think pretty quickly on the fly. So have your idea ready, adjust it as they play(if needed) and it should work.

It also follows the important rules of roleplaying design.
It's interesting, its about the PC's and not you(I mean they feel like they are driving it), and it offers the moth to the butterfly transformation that many people confuse as simple level ups.

It removes "oh look +1" to "oh look...amazing/puzzling/confusing shit"

So many people get lost in roleplaying. A fireball damage is not what originally interested us in roleplaying, it the FUCKING FIREBALL.
Think about it, fire in a ball wicking about almost like its in no gravity, burning things as it moves, parts of it white hot, some orange, some almost black, bits of it melting like wax to hit the floor.
Thats magic. Not 2d6.

Good luck, sounds like you have it well in hand.

[Ink Asylum]

Yeah. Thinking on my feet and coming up with fun stuff to do is one of my strengths as a GM. I've come up with a headless horseman encounter for Halloween and a Santa Claus one for Christmas sessions and actually have worked both into important elements of the overarching storyline. :)

I'm very much a fun/story over number-crunching GM. I try to make fights quick flurries of impressive actions rather than an hour of strict rolls while health points tick downwards.

I'm the kind of GM Tycho would slap.

[Karak]

Yeah. Thinking on my feet and coming up with fun stuff to do is one of my strengths as a GM. I've come up with a headless horseman encounter for Halloween and a Santa Claus one for Christmas sessions and actually have worked both into important elements of the overarching storyline. :)

I'm very much a fun/story over number-crunching GM. I try to make fights quick flurries of impressive actions rather than an hour of strict rolls while health points tick downwards.

I'm the kind of GM Tycho would slap.

Good and Good.

That is the way it should be. Sounds awesome.

[Karak]

Another bad habit I have encountered.

One of our players likes to make up secret plans when I am not in the room. Its like his own mini dm. And he then sometimes will say what I just explained again with alot of comparisons thrown in. Man sometimes that causes issues.

[alienmastermind]

Dude, Karak, I got the same damned guy in my game. DM Jr. I call him. Luckily, he's cheap, so we've been playing DnD 4e, and he still believes the things from 3.5 apply to the creatures (thank GOD) so when his character is surrounded by four Dragonshield Kobolds, he's like 'Kobolds! PAH!' then they glob-bomb him to the floor and stick him with skewers.

Win!

[Shieldmaiden]

I try to balance the heavy action scenes with things like investigative work and social encounters, and he has shone at times during those. One of my upcoming scenes is going to be a neutral social gathering of alot of the big names in our campaign (like the vampire costume party in Dresden) that I think will encourage all the characters to have some fun.

Reading this makes me think that there isn't really a problem. Not every character is a combat monster and it sounds like he does well at non-combat stuff. The big question is whether he's happy or not. Has he seemed unhappy at being sidelined during combat? If he's resisting your efforts to nudge him in that direction, maybe he's fine with it. Just make sure that you're rewarding him enough for the stuff that he is doing in his downtime.

If it gets to the point where he actually become a liability in combat, the demon could start manifesting powers which it uses to save him (like your transformation idea, but more subtle.)

[torrefaction]

You know, I'm not sure I see the issue with the "mini-DM". I'm a firm advocate of plotting against the DM as much as the DM plots against players. The DM shouldn't be aware of all the player actions and plans. That spoils some of the fun IMO.

[alienmastermind]

Torre, my guy only's a problem when I say 'You see a small walled city before you, approximately a mile across'.

He then turns to the rest of the group like Barbara Billingsley on Airplane! translating from jive to say 'It's a small town, often these don't have governors'. Or will restate what I've said in more complex language.

The planning thing I'm ultimately okay with. But there's a line between planning and planned disruption. :)

[Ink Asylum]

Ugh. I've got an RP session to DM this weekend and, as is my bad habit, I haven't properly prepared. Gotta spend some time tomorrow and Friday both summarizing recent sessions and planning new ones. At least I have a couple ideas but I'll need to do a lot more finalizing characters and their motivations before I'm comfortable playing out that big social scene I've been working on.

[Karak]

You know, I'm not sure I see the issue with the "mini-DM". I'm a firm advocate of plotting against the DM as much as the DM plots against players. The DM shouldn't be aware of all the player actions and plans. That spoils some of the fun IMO.

Couldn't disagree more. A DM's job is not only to understand the story but to understand everything about the characters. I never plot against my characters, the NPC's do. Massive difference. It's never me against them or it would suck. Its a co-op experience through and through. I am not sure how a DM would not be aware of player actions or plans as they would not come together with out required intel or items, or NPC interactions to solve a quest or plotline and the DM supplies those.

In addition a person making up secret plans is not a "character" making up secret plans. Character knowledge versus player knowledge are vastly different. To supply it they need me to assist them in what their characters understand of the world. Unless one of them played a "Client Support Rep" hahaha:)
A DM needs to be the "silent" fifth partner to the group. My job is to make the story unbelievably awesome in every way. And only by knowing everything can that be done.

[torrefaction]

What I mean, is that players should be free on occasion to discuss a plan of action and surprise the DM. I think that's part of the fun of BEING a DM.

[Karak]

What I mean, is that players should be free on occasion to discuss a plan of action and surprise the DM. I think that's part of the fun of BEING a DM.

I would have to see that to see if it worked. I have never encountered a group where that occurred, or at least where it worked, or where anyone has ever wanted to.
Everyone DM's differently so ya that might be cool for some. I have seen games with 2 full time DM's as well. It didn't work well but it lasted for like 2 years in realtime so it was good enough.

I am not sure how anyone would surprise a DM as they have to figure out what they are doing in the first place and explain it which is only possible with the DM knowing everything. Unless it's something very quick like, "I stab the guy while he is giving a speech" :) But since I plan for those things, its not really surprising.

I think my style is just much much different. I am very very separate from my characters, by design. So surprising me would really not accomplish anything as its not surprising the NPC's, and surprising the NPC's isn't possible without me knowing.
But I also happen to be much more cooperative than competitive in many things so that can also be why.

[torrefaction]

No, it's about allowing to allow the characters to act as a true group. On occasion, I would allow the characters to recuse themselves, and I would leave out of earshot. This allows me to be as surprised as they are on occasion, and made DM'ing less of a chore for me. It wasn't about competition so much as loving the element of surprise. Obviously, this didn't work constantly...I'd do it at larger moments, during larger events...in times when it made sense. They're at an inn, conferring on an encounter they know is coming, that sort of thing.

[torrefaction]

I'd like to add, there's never an excuse as a DM to over identify with a character. I used to have a DM who would use his personal character who was an assassin who far outleveled me as a sort of Deus Ex Machina. I actually quit playing for a while after that.

[Karak]

No, it's about allowing to allow the characters to act as a true group. On occasion, I would allow the characters to recuse themselves, and I would leave out of earshot. This allows me to be as surprised as they are on occasion, and made DM'ing less of a chore for me. It wasn't about competition so much as loving the element of surprise. Obviously, this didn't work constantly...I'd do it at larger moments, during larger events...in times when it made sense. They're at an inn, conferring on an encounter they know is coming, that sort of thing.

As I always say. Everyone plays differently.

[Arphahat]

I'd like to add, there's never an excuse as a DM to over identify with a character. I used to have a DM who would use his personal character who was an assassin who far outleveled me as a sort of Deus Ex Machina. I actually quit playing for a while after that.

Ugh... this is why I actually started to be turned off to RPGs. I hate, hate, hate the DM-PC. I'd rather be short a PC and have a TPK rather than have to deal with that.

Actually, most of my RPG experiences are tainted. Very much all hack 'n slash with a minimal amount of story. 4e is perfect for video game mechanics, but combat takes forever and is pretty pointless.

I am so interested in the "story" yet my group doesn't lend itself to that. Even when a DM tries, it is mostly putting the initiative in the hands of the players who don't know the world or characters and are so rusty with actual roleplaying that it is mostly just awkward.

I really like the 3 goals idea. I am about be a part of a new Star Wars campaign starting tomorrow. Maybe I'll suggest that to help give us players some roleplaying focus.

[Karak]

I really like the 3 goals idea. I am about be a part of a new Star Wars campaign starting tomorrow. Maybe I'll suggest that to help give us players some roleplaying focus.

I can't think of a time a succesful DM character or that kind of thing worked. I hate that shit too.

As for goals ya, this has turned every game I have ever played around, or made the ones we play awesome. It allows for some much growth in the game and is like a little mini history book.

[Arphahat]

OK, now that I'm done complaining about everyone else, I'll confess my dirty secret.

I am the one who slows down the group with my side talking / ridiculous joking / gay roleplaying. Although, to be fair, it is one of the only ways we all enjoy the game session. But still, I'm that guy.

[torrefaction]

I once spent an entire Shadowrun session I was GM'ing for where that guy decided to go buy drugs and hookers, then kill the hooker and take his and her money. It ended up with the group having killed so many cops that I had to retcon the damn session, and make it into a bad drug episode where the group played along with the PC in order to make sure he didn't do anything TOO insane. So it all never really happened. I did this because I didn't want to recreate all the characters due to the situation they got themselves into.

It was actually pretty damn entertaining.

[Panthera]

I can't think of a time a succesful DM character or that kind of thing worked. I hate that shit too.

As for goals ya, this has turned every game I have ever played around, or made the ones we play awesome. It allows for some much growth in the game and is like a little mini history book.

That's one thing I've always been careful of. If there's an NPC accompanying the players, I make sure he's not going to outshine the PCs. Even if she's the lady of the land, it's still strictly an escort mission.

Now, when the PCs start taking a shine to certain NPCs... then you can ramp it up a bit. And don't forget that the DM is there to have fun too.

[Karak]

That's one thing I've always been careful of. If there's an NPC accompanying the players, I make sure he's not going to outshine the PCs. Even if she's the lady of the land, it's still strictly an escort mission.

Now, when the PCs start taking a shine to certain NPCs... then you can ramp it up a bit. And don't forget that the DM is there to have fun too.

Also i think people's idea of fun is different. Some are competitive and try to KILL their pc's, others help them too much. I am indifferent. The NPC has an alignment, motivations and so forth and thats how they are run. The most likely comment I can expect from any of my games is that the NPC's are the most lifelike any of them have enjoyed.

I also take motivations into consideration more than game play.
Basically NPC's are drive by:
Motivations or goals, impacted by their alignment, adjusted by their current situation, compared to the current goal. So its a loop. And it works wonderfully.

[Panthera]

Also i think people's idea of fun is different. Some are competitive and try to KILL their pc's, others help them too much.

I always joke that I'm trying to kill the players, plotting their demise like some sort of Bond villain, but really it's like playing chicken. You've got to make them terrified for their characters, but at the same time a wiped out party isn't fun for anyone. I found that a really hard balance to strike in D&D, since an intelligent party at higher levels can defeat any adverse situation and you have to be intimately familiar with the magical metagame to have any hope of threatening them.

[Karak]

I always joke that I'm trying to kill the players, plotting their demise like some sort of Bond villain, but really it's like playing chicken. You've got to make them terrified for their characters, but at the same time a wiped out party isn't fun for anyone. I found that a really hard balance to strike in D&D, since an intelligent party at higher levels can defeat any adverse situation and you have to be intimately familiar with the magical metagame to have any hope of threatening them.

I have found that danger happens if a good backstory is laid out. It sort of just...happens. Also even if my characters are outfitteded perfectly, even if they are 100% prepared, it doesn't mean the enemies arn't.
Our games probably come across more as Mission Impossible 2. Where highly trained people may know what others may or may not try(rolls and the world taken into account)
Danger has a way of developing. Hell one of the main guys we had in a 1 year game was shot dead in the streets by the son of a woman that the PC had accidently killed. It was epic in scope and purely luck on the NPC's part.
It could have gone 3 ways
1 PC kills NPC
2 NPC kills PC
3 PC uses skills to talk or get his way out of it.
It turned out to be the 2nd.
And then the player took that homeless boy as his new character(not what I thought he would do originally) and played him for many games afterwards as a guilt ridden man for doing what he did. We played out that he found out it was all an accident by the current remaining PC's.
Really fun.

[Panthera]

And that's why I'm glad I've switched to GURPS, even if just for a break. D&D has this way of minimizing real world dramatic elements. Nearly every other system out there doesn't.

[Karak]

And that's why I'm glad I've switched to GURPS, even if just for a break. D&D has this way of minimizing real world dramatic elements. Nearly every other system out there doesn't.

Agreed.
We use mostly card based gaming now(poker cards) Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay when in fantasy worlds and WOD old for supernatural or real world games.
Most of the others are far to minimax for me or concentrate on the videogame aspects of roleplaying more than I would like.

[Deadend]

One of my players, she HATES making characters that work. Well, without the other players and I stepping in and going "lets step back and try and follow the logic of why your character would be that way."

Her original goal was a character who just goes around making maps and book keeping. Which goes against the shit I had in mind for the party. In the D20 Modern game her character liked to do suicide charges with 10 CON and 5 STR wielding a lead pipe. Her play style bugs me as I swear she wants to fuck up campaigns.

One of the other players made a guy who is a crazy inventor/survival nut, but who has never been out of a city and tries to solve encounters oddly. 3rd player made a badass mouse that could probably kick the shit out of a bear, but who has no time for bullshit like resting, caution, helping others or deviating from a straight line. They made some fun guys for me to DM at.

I magaged to get the mapmaker to become a master pathfinder/scout who has started putting down their knowledge onto maps for the younger mice, but who always is ready to avoid conflict and is big on running away.

This should end up making fun for me, as Mouse Guard has a great system that makes it so the DM doesn't have to be cautious around the players, as if you are following the rules, it's quite tough to surprise-kill them in a way that makes sense.

I also know that Ink has taken care of his player/character who is being a pussy in Dresden, even though the way I would have done it is by throwing the character in a situation where the only solution is to use that Magic he has been neglecting.. and then fails, innocent people die because he was being stubborn and didn't use his power. You say make him Spider-man with agility? I say make him Spider-man due to guilt over not using his great power that could be his.

[tactless]

I always play the same character, myself. Playing a character, sort of a meta, meta gamer. I tend to play by the seat of my pants and never combat based I like to be the guy to fall into the trap set by the dm. My worst bad habit is that I refuse to learn the basics of any one system so I tend to base my actions off the PC'S base stats.

[Shieldmaiden]

I just remembered one of my pet hates: smokers who can't go more than 30 minutes without a cigarette during a game. Is three-four hours really too long to go without a smoke? And if it is, can you at least admit that you have a problem.

[nnanji]

I just remembered one of my pet hates: smokers who can't go more than 30 minutes without a cigarette during a game. Is three-four hours really too long to go without a smoke? And if it is, can you at least admit that you have a problem.

As someone who smokes during roleplaying sessions, let me counter-argue. I try my best to put off a smoke until a natural breaking point occurs, like after a battle while everyone does book keeping. But for all the looks I get about it, no one gives a damn when other players get up in the middle of a fight to grab a drink, or crack a joke, or show off a rule in some other system that would be better for resolving a situation than the game we're playing right now.

I get it, it can be obnoxious when the flow is broken. But calling out smokers as if they are the only ones doing it is silly. It's a group enjoyment, so relax and let the group enjoy itself. Frankly, if they have to smoke every thirty minutes, maybe the real question is why are they so bored that they are just wandering away from the game that often.