The H1N1 Vaccine

[Hotcod]

The other thread on this topic in the the lounge has ended up causing some issue's for people who really don't need them at the moment and so I agree with the idea that another thread, in the right section, may be the best place to carry on the discussion's about this issue.

[Hotcod]

And Hotcod, by pulling the 'these [doctors] have years of study(have doctors ever been wrong?)', and 'your views are faulty' argument, it just shows we'd only go back and forth about this. Maybe you just need the last word, which you can go ahead and do after this, but I'm still content with what I think.

Doctors can be wrong and so can, clearly, the people you are getting your information from. We are not going back and forth at all, I am clearly stating that my views are based on those of people who are credited with knowing what they are talking about and are up to date with the latest published research and understand the peer review of that research and in some case are in fact those peers. You have yet to tell us where you get your ideas from other than "research". You could point us towards where you are getting your ideas from so we can look at them and the people who have presented them and so have a much more for filling debate on the relative merits of there work.

It's true that me and other will likely just slam them but at lest we'll be able to give you real reasons why and we might have a chance of opening up your eyes to where we see you are going on. It may even be that you knock us off our feet with something.

Still what we have here is a group of people who think one thing and who have the backing of the established accepted theory and those who's job and life's work are based around understanding the human body or biological cemetery... and you, who thinks another, and points to having done research with out ever telling us exactly what it is you've researched and where.

In the end what you've just said sound a hell of lot like rhetoric often used by people with unsupported point's of view.

[pomeroy]

What's "n1h1"?

[Lint of Death]

The best way to avoid the swine flu is to not eat a whole lot.

[Xerxes]

Yay... It continues. O_o

[Adam Blue]

I stopped caring what you thought when people started calling me ignorant and telling me to get my head out of the sand. I don't debate that way. I have no reason to try and convince any of you otherwise anymore. I think enough has been said from the last thread.

[Hotcod]

No it hasn't, since i'm still waiting for you to produce anything to back up the validity of your information.

[Scaryfaced]

Would you mind explaining to me why swine flu has the potential to mutate into some kind of super virus? Alot of people seem convinced that if we don't immunize everyone, it will turn into something more akin with the plagues of old. I see that arguement tossed around alot, but I've yet to learn where it's coming from. I haven't heard anyone worry about any other previous flu strain turning into a plague, so what makes H1N1 different?

[Slack3r78]

I stopped caring what you thought when people started calling me ignorant and telling me to get my head out of the sand. I don't debate that way. I have no reason to try and convince any of you otherwise anymore. I think enough has been said from the last thread.

I think that probably has something to do with you saying things that sound good, but go completely against the body of science on any of this.

[ShivaX]

Would you mind explaining to me why swine flu has the potential to mutate into some kind of super virus? Alot of people seem convinced that if we don't immunize everyone, it will turn into something more akin with the plagues of old. I see that arguement tossed around alot, but I've yet to learn where it's coming from. I haven't heard anyone worry about any other previous flu strain turning into a plague, so what makes H1N1 different?

Well its capable of infecting humans and pigs and apparently cats (http://abcnews.go.com/Health/SwineFluNews/iowa-cat-catches-swine-flu/story?id=8999295). I'd say thats a pretty mutable bug we're dealing with.

That said I'm not sure where the super virus thing is coming from. I mean its bad in that it seems like it might be able to infect any animal and spread to any other animal and that its fairly nasty. I'm not getting a bubonic plague vibe from it - though the Spanish Flu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_flu) managed to wipe out 3% of the world population which would be around 20 million people nowdays.

[Panthera]

This should be neither politics or religion.

[tacitus]

Well its capable of infecting humans and pigs and apparently cats (http://abcnews.go.com/Health/SwineFluNews/iowa-cat-catches-swine-flu/story?id=8999295). I'd say thats a pretty mutable bug we're dealing with.

That said I'm not sure where the super virus thing is coming from. I mean its bad in that it seems like it might be able to infect any animal and spread to any other animal and that its fairly nasty. I'm not getting a bubonic plague vibe from it - though the Spanish Flu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_flu) managed to wipe out 3% of the world population which would be around 20 million people nowdays.
I would not be a bit surprised if there are other animals that can be infected as well. The other problem is because most of population has not been exposed - is that by the time one has symptoms you have been spreading it for days.

The superflu concerns come from the human mortality rate associated with avian flu - which is like 60%.

[Narradisall]

I highly doubt you will achieve herd immunity with H1N1 unless people start force vaccinating people, and then your going down a rather dark road.

There are no reassurances that the vaccine is 100% safe, since there are just too many variables to test against. There is someone at my work with a heart failure condition, that why they are top of the list to be vaccinated is refusing to get one because they fear it can kill them. Nothing anyone says will convince her to have it.

The media and general world management of this whole scenario has been a farce. Lots of people recall the 'Bird Flu' situation where we were going to be piling bodies up in the streets because we wouldn't be able to contain the vast sums of dead. Nothing happened. They didn't even roll out a vaccine for that.

Perhaps if the media world stopped crying wolf people might take this a bit more seriously. As it stands people honestly do not think they will get it. Is that the right frame of thinking? Probably not, but its there all the same.

Also it annoys me that people (in the UK at least) are basing the spread of the infection on average joe slef diagnosing. I had to have a culture to ensure I was infected but this got dropped early and everyone with the sniffles was screaming "swine flu". The stats on how many cases the UK have had are likely ridiculously far off the mark.

Let's just hope it doesn't come back then.

[Inspector Fowler]

I expressed my hesitance in the other thread, but I got vaccinated yesterday. Although police aren't considered "high risk" by the government the health center on campus told us that they consider us high risk (honestly, hearing the number of people coughing in some of the residence halls is kinda scary) and told us we could come in for free.

So far, a very mild soreness at the vaccination site and nothing else.

[evilgoodwin]

Remember SARS? Whatever happened to that? :P

I've had this bad ear infection all throughout October that's been reoccurring all month. Right when it starts to clear up, I try to schedule a follow up so we can find out what's been causing it after all the infection has cleared up, but I can only get scheduled 2 weeks after calling them because they're so booked up with people who cried "Swine Flu". By the time it's time for my follow up, the infection has already flared up again and the visit is pointless.

[Crowe]

The media combined with the aussie "it will be right" attitude has resulted in no one really giving a fuck here, from what I have seen anyway. And the media really can take a lot of the blame, they make every little thing problem seem like Armageddon and it got old a long time ago.

[Inspector Fowler]

A week now, and I have not contracted the rage virus. So far, so good. ;) The University is now providing "Blood Borne Pathogens" training from OSHA. Every employee is supposed to get it, I guess. Seems like it's something that common sense would tell you, but I guess not.

Some type of flu (H1N1 or not) is still raging in the residence halls. I am glad that they have next week to go home and get healthy. Hopefully being allowed to sleep for a week without contacting a few thousand other people will help the virus subside.

[TheEpicOfTyler]

There is a lot of good information in this podcast if you're still interested in this stuff.

http://www.theskepticsguide.org/archive/podcastinfo.aspx?mid=1&pid=10001

A bunch of doctors and science folk talking about H1N1, the regular flu, the vaccines and the psuedoscience surrounding them. They also discuss that cheerleader that supposedly received dystonia from a vaccine and they talk about how that is impossible and how her disorder is physchogenic.

[Narradisall]

In the UK H1N1 seems to have dropped completely off the map.

A few months back we were going to be piling the bodies in the streets and burning them en masse in order to stop the infection killing us all. Now its never mentioned at all.

Another example of great media handling ala Bird Flu.

Even if it did turn out to become some huge problem its too late here anyway. The last report I saw showed a 45% take up in the 'at risk' groups offered the first wave of vaccine. There goes your herd immunity guys!

[TheEpicOfTyler]

It is something that people should be aware of an should be educated on. Just because it's not the black plague doesn't mean anything. Less deadly than the 'normal' flu could mean that it kills 400,000 people. That is something to be worried about, especially when the flu that we anticipated is still here. 500,000 people are going to die of the flu this season without H1N1 involved, H1N1 had and potentially has the ability to increase that number by a drastic amount.

Some people think it was blown out of proportion, but it is very important that it gets the attention it deserves.

[Generation ABXY]

It's slightly off topic, I suppose, but this amused me:

http://failblog.files.wordpress.com/2009/11/epic-fail-parenting-fail.jpg

[Narradisall]

Another interesting thing. I was speaking to a friend today who was priority for H1N1.

They were going to get it as they have chromes disease (or something like that, I don't think they actually turn Chrome).

They went to their 'drop in' vaccine appointment, and walked out 2 hours later after having waited around for ages with no signs of getting the jab anytime soon. They won't be going back.

Great handling so far.

[ShivaX]

Maybe Crohn's disease?

Though Chrome Disease sounds kinda awesome.
Maybe in the advanced stages you look like Collosus from the X-men.

[Serapth]

It is something that people should be aware of an should be educated on. Just because it's not the black plague doesn't mean anything. Less deadly than the 'normal' flu could mean that it kills 400,000 people. That is something to be worried about, especially when the flu that we anticipated is still here. 500,000 people are going to die of the flu this season without H1N1 involved, H1N1 had and potentially has the ability to increase that number by a drastic amount.

Some people think it was blown out of proportion, but it is very important that it gets the attention it deserves.

Except of course, the boy who cried wolf syndrome. By screaming from the mountains "WE ARE ALL GOING TO DIE!!!!" for H1N1, and Bird Flu, SARs, hell even with African Killer Bees, people are just going to stop paying attention.

So, when something truly nasty and vile comes around people may not give it the respect they deserve. Then again, its more the media to blame than the medical associations.

I've spoken to a few people on the vaccination, my GP, his alternate ( a different doctor ) another doctor in casual conversation and a few nurses and even amongst the medical community, the value of the vaccination seems pretty disputed. Only one was pro vaccine, two were anti and the rest ( both nurses ) were pragmatic about it ( better safe than sorry ).

[ShivaX]

As far as vaccinations I say hit the most likely vectors followed by those that will be most succeptable. That means public servants, healthcare workers and kids (fucking living disease vectors). After that hit up the old people. If theres anything left the normies can fight to the death for it on pay-per-view or something.

[baz]

Another interesting thing. I was speaking to a friend today who was priority for H1N1.

They were going to get it as they have chromes disease (or something like that, I don't think they actually turn Chrome).

They went to their 'drop in' vaccine appointment, and walked out 2 hours later after having waited around for ages with no signs of getting the jab anytime soon. They won't be going back.

Great handling so far.

In other anecdotal evidence I know a bunch of people classified as at risk (asthma mainly) who all received their vaccination with a minimum of fuss. Mainly down Southampton way.

[Vigil80]

I (technically) work in healthcare, as does my mother, so I got the H1N1 vaccination. In my nose, to be exact. We were in and out in 10 minutes.

[Narradisall]

In other anecdotal evidence I know a bunch of people classified as at risk (asthma mainly) who all received their vaccination with a minimum of fuss. Mainly down Southampton way.

I'm not saying its not anecdotal, but crazyly enough, you may have noticed bad news spreads further and faster than good.

Statistical evidence is showing a pathetic 45% (ish) take up of the vaccine from the first round of people. So either they aren't bothering, or aren't hanging around.

If they're aiming for herd immunity, they are failing.

[alienmastermind]

I had Swine Flu.

Guess what? It's the flu on steroids, but that's about it. I haven't had so much as a sniffle since, but man, it sucked for the week and a day I had symptoms.

This is purely anecdotal, but it was funny to see the people in the waiting room react when they brought me outisde with a mask on. I felt like I had the deadly Moutaba virus from Outbreak.

Turns out, it's just the flu.

[Panthera]

Nobody said otherwise. It is just the flu - but they're right to be more worried than for the ordinary flu, simply because it's more contagious.

[TheEpicOfTyler]

And that the normal flu is still here.

[Narradisall]

0.8% Death rate, experts in the UK are now claiming its not as deadly as they first feared. It's still important to vaccinate those at risk though.

Since thats UK news, I'm curious, has anyone in other countries heard much about it in months?

[Doogie2K]

In Canada, the death rate is about the same as regular flu.

[TheEpicOfTyler]

In Canada, the death rate is about the same as regular flu.

Which means twice as many people will die this year than last year of a flu strain.

[Crowe]

Which means twice as many people will die this year than last year of a flu strain.

Only if equal amounts of people get each flu.

[Ultima Thulian]

The swine flu is a money grab. Nothing more and nothing less. This is an old trick that seems to work on the dumbass citizenry time and time again.

[TheEpicOfTyler]

Only if equal amounts of people get each flu.

:o

It was late.