UPDATED LBP Delayed, Recalled Worldwide [Archive]

DoctorFinger

10-17-2008, 09:59 AM

http://www.mediamolecule.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/chewit.jpg

Bad news for our brethren on The Continent looking forward to Little Big Planet - just a week before it's release it's been delayed in Europe. Retailers there now list a release date of November 14th. Oddly enough, some retailers already have their allotment of the game in hand, making this as much a recall as a delay.

So why then is this happening? According to this post on the Playstation Community website (http://www.videogaming247.com/2008/10/17/littlebigplanet-delayed-says-speculation/) (cached version of the post), the music on one level included in the game contains lyrics from the Qua'ran, the Muslim holy book. Use of the Qua'ran for such purposes is considered by some to be offensive, so it's likely Sony is taking the game off the market so the offending track can be removed or modified. A similar situation occurred with last year's Zach & Wiki, but that reference was caught before the game want to print.

It's unknown at this time if a similar delay/recall will affect the game's release in any other territories.

Update: LBP Has been recalled on a global level according to SCEE (http://www.videogaming247.com/2008/10/17/sony-littlebigplanet-to-be-recalled-on-global-level/). No new release date has been confirmed. - Siraris

Update 2: Here's the official Sony statement - JAYoung

During the review process prior to the release of LittleBigPlanet, it has been brought to our attention that one of the background music tracks licensed from a record label for use in the game contains two expressions that can be found in the Qur'an. We have taken immediate action to rectify this and we sincerely apologise for any offence that this may have caused.Update 3: Joystiq (http://www.joystiq.com/2008/10/17/inside-the-lbp-delay-a-grammy-award-winning-artists-2006-song/) has tracked down the offending song in question - "Tapha Niang" from a Grammy award-winning Malian kora player named Toumani Diabaté.

Update 4: According to Media Molecule (http://blog.us.playstation.com/2008/10/17/littlebigplanet-release-update/), fans in the US won't have to wait too long for their fix:During the review process prior to the release of LittleBigPlanet, it has been brought to our attention that one of the background music tracks licensed from a record label for use in the game contains two expressions that can be found in the Qur’an. We have taken immediate action to rectify this and we sincerely apologize for any offense that this may have caused.

We will begin shipping LittleBigPlanet to retail in North America the week of October 27th. Sorry for the delay, and rest assured, we are doing everything we can to get LittleBigPlanet to you as soon as possible. We’ll report back as soon as we have another update.

Sources - PS Community cached article (http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:BuPMgf6T4UIJ:community.eu.playstati on.com/playstationeu/board/message%3Fboard.id%3D611%26message.id%3D8388+%22ta pha+Niang%22+quran&hl=da&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=dk); Videogaming247 (http://www.videogaming247.com/2008/10/17/littlebigplanet-delayed-says-speculation/); Joystiq (http://www.joystiq.com/2008/10/17/littlebigplanet-delayed-in-europe-quran-misuse-cited-as-possib/);

MachEnergy

10-17-2008, 10:02 AM

I guess the industry didn't learn anything from Kakuto Chojin. I own the original copy of that game, and I'll tell you what I learned. Kakuto Chojin is a terrible game.

Sorry to hear about the delay :(

NoName

10-17-2008, 10:05 AM

Hopefully this doesn't effect anywhere else. I just started looking forward to this game!

LongStepMantis

10-17-2008, 10:11 AM

So...how did they "accidentally" include lyrics from one of the most fire-starting topics around today? I'm not saying anything against the religion itself, but given the tensions around the subject...that's like having a music track in a game with lyrics taken from Mein Kampf.

roboninja

10-17-2008, 10:12 AM

Yay, religious zealotry delaying games now too. :rolleyes:

fitbabits

10-17-2008, 10:12 AM

The saying 'all press is good press' probably warrants a mention here.

Telefrog

10-17-2008, 10:15 AM

If that really is the reason for the delay, then I would definitely expect the same thing to happen elsewhere.

Mike Kelehan

10-17-2008, 10:15 AM

Remember the original Fire Temple music from Ocarina of Time? It was probably a lot like that, i. e. very cool and soon nerfed.

Magma

10-17-2008, 10:16 AM

Use of the Qua'ran for such purposes is considered by some to be offensive

Guess we won't be hearing Muslim rock bands anytime soon.

rvieira

10-17-2008, 10:21 AM

If the delay is because of a religion concern, it will happen worldwide, not just Europe.

EDIT: Telefrog was faster!

LarsenNET

10-17-2008, 10:28 AM

Wow, big mistake. This is going to get covered up by so many great games if it holds the Nov 14th date. Gears the week before, ouch.

Johan

10-17-2008, 10:32 AM

AgtFox

10-17-2008, 10:32 AM

Wow, a lot of people have the game already in hand too that I've seen from various other areas around the internet. This is one big FUBAR situation.

National Kato

10-17-2008, 10:34 AM

This is some major egg on Sony's (and Media Molecule's) face. Arguably the biggest title this year for the PS3 and it's getting delayed/recalled one week prior to release. Ouch.

On the bright side, I'll have plenty of gaming goodness to tide me over. :)

roboninja

10-17-2008, 10:35 AM

LarsenNET

10-17-2008, 10:36 AM

They are going to loose a lot more sales because of the delay than they are going to offend. I'm willing to bet no one here would have ever noticed or cared. This is insane.

rein

10-17-2008, 10:37 AM

well *uck a duck.

...open up the beta to everyone while we wait. plz?

biosc1

10-17-2008, 10:38 AM

Can people import music into the levels created in LBP? If so, one can just imagine what the first thing people are going to do is.

LongStepMantis

10-17-2008, 10:39 AM

Wow...that's a pretty monumental screwup on a very basic thing...

what I want to know is why there's a double-standard...in my mind, there is.

I also want to know why the HELL there needs to be any censorship of content at all. WHY? Sell the game as is and let the CONSUMER make the decision as to whether it's personally offensive or not. I'm sick of games getting modified to please particular interest groups, and I'm a social conservative, too! Make the game you want to make, rate it and indicate its content honestly, and let individuals and the market decide whether to buy it or self-censor.

Is this so difficult? I don't find hack-and-slash movies my cup of tea, but I don't request Saw and Hostel be banned. I don't like really gory/scary games, but I don't think Manhunt should be banned.

I just don't get it. I'm quite conservative, but I also clearly recognize that I want to decide for myself what content I expose myself to, and NOT have others do that for me. Are people really such freaking babies that OTHERS must submit to THEIR restrictions on what they are exposed to in a game, movie, or song? :rolleyes:

Not to oversimplify it...but a lot of it has to do with the fact that if you put material objectionable to say, Christians, in something, everyone doesn't immediately worry that they'll try to kill you. It doesn't help that many radical Islamic devotees respond to these things by stating "Get rid of it...or we'll kill you."

The whole situation makes me sick to my stomach.

DiBiddilyBop

10-17-2008, 10:39 AM

Well that sucks... This was going to be a day-of-release purchase for me, too. Oh well, Far Cry 2 instead.

National Kato

10-17-2008, 10:39 AM

...open up the beta to everyone while we wait. plz?

That would be a great idea. Seriously. Tide everyone over and limit the backlash by letting people continue to create and play each other's levels.

Wraith

10-17-2008, 10:39 AM

Wonder how much this is going to cost them. Do they already have thousands of discs pressed and packaged, on the way to retailers worldwide? Do those copies just get tossed in the Sony corporate dumpster? Are they going to lose some sales from missing the original release date? At least they should be able to get the game out before the big Thanksgiving-Christmas rush.

LarsenNET

10-17-2008, 10:39 AM

Couldn't they have just released a patch? Something like, if offended click here otherwise, carry on.

Johan

10-17-2008, 10:40 AM

Totally agreed, Johan. The current uber-sensitivity to Islamic worries simply highlights this basic problem.

It's a can of worms for every group in existence to demand censorship of content they deem inappropriate. It's just a matter of who's next...

I have some very strong ideas of what is appropriate and what is not, and I employ them...IN MY HOME and in MY OWN LIFE! :)

Why can't others do the same? Just don't buy the game. Is it that difficult? :confused: Whywhywhywhywhy? I'm offended that they're offended. Can we recall the edited version now?

Do those copies just get tossed in the Sony corporate dumpster?

They'll probably end up on the black market...in the Middle East. :D

Sandman

10-17-2008, 10:42 AM

This delay means I might actually be able to buy the game on release day. I couldn't afford it on October 21st.

LarsenNET

10-17-2008, 10:43 AM

It doesn't help that many radical Islamic devotees respond to these things by stating "Get rid of it...or we'll kill you."

Ok, but how many of these radicals play playstation 3 games? I would think they are more worried about food, water, and ducking RPG's.

LongStepMantis

10-17-2008, 10:47 AM

Ok, but how many of these radicals play playstation 3 games? I would think they are more worried about food, water, and ducking RPG's.

That's just it. I'd bet 99% of the media that might contain material objectionable to worshipers of Islam...will never be played by worshipers of Islam. At least not the ones who care enough to make a big deal over it, ie non-radicals.

Doesn't mean they can't hear about it, and then threaten to kill you over it. Everyone has to tiptoe around the sleeping dog of radical Islam it seems. :(

araczynski

10-17-2008, 10:50 AM

they sure are touchy about their religion(s). how many more centuries before they get to the 'hypocrite' stage like the rest of the civilized religious nations?

roboninja

10-17-2008, 10:50 AM

Doesn't mean they can't hear about it, and then threaten to kill you over it. Everyone has to tiptoe around the sleeping dog of radical Islam it seems. :(

Which simply sends them the message that their form of terrorism is working.

Johan

10-17-2008, 10:52 AM

Everyone has to tiptoe around the sleeping dog of radical Islam it seems. :(

What about the penis levels? What about female sackgirls who aren't covered appropriately? What about the fraternization of unrelated male and female sackpeople?

I give up. As a Christian, I want all video games with any violence, sex, nudity, swearing/cussing, liquor, smoking, drugs, cultic symbols, death, and any other content at all objectionable including the use of any words that have previously been used in the Bible...

recalled. :D

You can all play Petz and Barbie Horse Adventures and suck it. ;)

how many more centuries before they get to the 'hypocrite' stage like the rest of the civilized religious nations?

Back off...that's been copyrighted.

I keed, I keed. Kinda.

Telefrog

10-17-2008, 10:52 AM

Ok, but how many of these radicals play playstation 3 games? I would think they are more worried about food, water, and ducking RPG's.

Here's the main issue. Offending Christians when you are a primarily Christian country is an act that can be market-correcting (as Johan says, don't buy it if it offends you) and doesn't put any political interests in danger. Offending another country's primary religion is a huge difference. It's especially important if the offended country and religion in question is a political and economic hotspot.

Put it this way, how many offending games, movies, and books do you think it would take before all primarily Musilm countries decide to tell the US to stuff it?

Ancalagon

10-17-2008, 10:57 AM

Wow...that's a pretty monumental screwup on a very basic thing...

what I want to know is why there's a double-standard...in my mind, there is.

I also want to know why the HELL there needs to be any censorship of content at all. WHY? Sell the game as is and let the CONSUMER make the decision as to whether it's personally offensive or not. I'm sick of games getting modified to please particular interest groups, and I'm a social conservative, too! Make the game you want to make, rate it and indicate its content honestly, and let individuals and the market decide whether to buy it or self-censor.

Is this so difficult? I don't find hack-and-slash movies my cup of tea, but I don't request Saw and Hostel be banned. I don't like really gory/scary games, but I don't think Manhunt should be banned.

I just don't get it. I'm quite conservative, but I also clearly recognize that I want to decide for myself what content I expose myself to, and NOT have others do that for me. Are people really such freaking babies that OTHERS must submit to THEIR restrictions on what they are exposed to in a game, movie, or song? :rolleyes:

The thing is, you are a reasonible person, and if someone released a game that explicitly mocked your religion, you might be a bit miffed but probably just wouldnt buy it.

The Muslims, on the other hand, would kill those responsible. Remember the cartoons? Remember when Salman Rushdie was knighted? Thats the difference; your reaction = reasonible, their reaction = completely over the top. Would you want the music composer to die because some idiot cant take a joke?

I'm not saying its the right solution, that we should pander to their will. But I think the reality is that Sony doesnt want to deal with a jihad over its game.

including the use of any words that have previously been used in the Bible...

Which version? ;)

Urizen

10-17-2008, 10:57 AM

A similar situation occurred with last year's Zach & Wiki, but that reference was caught before the game want to print.

I believe the Zack and Wiki references were much more similar to ...

Remember the original Fire Temple music from Ocarina of Time? It was probably a lot like that, i. e. very cool and soon nerfed.

...and not exactly quotations and excerpts from the Qu'ran.

In the Capcom and Nintendo titles, there was Islamic chanting: things like 'God is Great' and 'There is no God but Allah'. This kind of thing is quite different from using the text of the Qu'ran. In many (indeed most) parts of the Muslim world, there is spiritual songs which use these phrases.

Also, melodious recitation of the Qu'ran is practiced around the world. We've literally got a half a dozen different recitations by different scholars at home on CD and MP3 because they each have their own flavor. This is orthodox Islam.

The complaint against Ocarina of Time was that it was used in the Fire Temple which conjures images of Hell. I didn't find that offensive. And I believe very few Muslims did. In Zack and Wiki it was those little cannibalistic tribal monkeys that were doing the chanting, some people found that offensive.

I don't know, obviously, how Media Molecule used the verses, but I can't help but imagine that they acted totally out of ignorance. They didn't know what they had until after the game went gold.

So to respond to Johan's point: it's not that they want to censor themselves at MM. They themselves were unaware of the content of the game. You say you want developers and publishers to be honest about their content and let it be hit with whatever rating the boards say, well that's exactly what appears to be happening.

LongStepMantis

10-17-2008, 11:00 AM

What about the penis levels? What about female sackgirls who aren't covered appropriately? What about the fraternization of unrelated male and female sackpeople?

I give up. As a Christian, I want all video games with any violence, sex, nudity, swearing/cussing, liquor, smoking, drugs, cultic symbols, death, and any other content at all objectionable including the use of any words that have previously been used in the Bible...

recalled. :D

You can all play Petz and Barbie Horse Adventures and suck it. ;)

Oh Johan. :D

I agree with you though, the way that Islamic outcry is catered to goes above and beyond what we would do for other groups, often out of fear of reprisal. Which is a damn shame, and completely ridiculous in my eyes.

They can air TV shows for kids in their countries, talking about how "good boys and girls" have to kill the Great Satan and destroy the Zionist dogs, but our using some slight bit of their culture/religion in our own is offensive, and we have to stop or else they'll "get us."

What a load of shit...I'm sorry, but it is.

Urizen

10-17-2008, 11:01 AM

JediSanf

10-17-2008, 11:01 AM

you know what? If they want to recall it in Europe because the EU is slipping towards fascism, that's fine. Here in America, the First Amendment says release the goddamn game.

Johan

10-17-2008, 11:02 AM

that's exactly what appears to be happening.

What's happening is they are apparently either editing or removing content. That's the antithesis of what I think should happen. The exact opposite.

Individuals should decide what they expose themselves to...individuals should NOT decide what OTHERS expose themselves to.

Oh Johan. :D

Get back to your Petz game! ;)

GrenMag

10-17-2008, 11:06 AM

LongStepMantis

10-17-2008, 11:06 AM

Get back to your Petz game! ;)

I resent that remark!

I'm a Barbie Horse Adventures man, through and through. ;)

TheFlyingOrc

10-17-2008, 11:11 AM

I believe you're mistaken. Care to show me where Miyamoto or Kondo got death threats for Ocarina of Time v.1?

What's this fire temple thing? I'm not familiar.

JediSanf

10-17-2008, 11:12 AM

I don't condone the method of protest that some individuals/communities use to protest things they find offensive but look at it this way:

Say that instead of music containing verses from the Qua'ran, the media in question was a picture of your grandfather modified to portray him in fishnet stockings french-kissing Ricky Ricardo and the game was for a console you don't own so you'll never play the game personally. Would you find the idea of the usage of your grandparent's image in that manner offensive, or at least distasteful?

More than likely you would and you would probably take legal action to have it removed.

Freedom of Speech. Full Stop. You can sue but you will and should lose. To use a religious comparison an image of the cruxifiction was defecated on and diplayed as art. This is freedom of speech and barring ( the impressively few) limitation re incitement and immeint danger you are protected.

LongStepMantis

10-17-2008, 11:13 AM

I don't condone the method of protest that some individuals/communities use to protest things they find offensive but look at it this way:

Say that instead of music containing verses from the Qua'ran, the media in question was a picture of your grandfather modified to portray him in fishnet stockings french-kissing Ricky Ricardo and the game was for a console you don't own so you'll never play the game personally. Would you find the idea of the usage of your grandparent's image in that manner offensive, or at least distasteful?

More than likely you would and you would probably take legal action to have it removed.

I get what you're trying to say, and it's a good point, but not quite the same thing.

Using some text from a book someone may love and cherish, and a picture of your Grandpa gaying it up are not in the same league. Is the text they borrowed being used to denigrate the religion? I highly doubt it. So what it amounts to is equal to a picture of your Grandpa...that's it, just a regular old picture of him. Would you still be so pissed?

Tayaya

10-17-2008, 11:13 AM

The thing is, you are a reasonible person, and if someone released a game that explicitly mocked your religion, you might be a bit miffed but probably just wouldnt buy it.

The Muslims, on the other hand, would kill those responsible. Remember the cartoons? Remember when Salman Rushdie was knighted? Thats the difference; your reaction = reasonible, their reaction = completely over the top. Would you want the music composer to die because some idiot cant take a joke?

I'm not saying its the right solution, that we should pander to their will. But I think the reality is that Sony doesnt want to deal with a jihad over its game.

Which version? ;)

ACTUALLY, Xenogears made a complete mockery of the Christian religion to the point where it made one really question why we believe in what we believe in. As a Catholic perhaps I should've found the game's messages blasphemous and sided with the church when they petitioned Squaresoft not to publish the game here.

However, I was able to separate fiction from reality and understand that while the game's religion was very similar and modeled after Christianity, it was never outright called such and was also set in a totally different universe than our own. It was a piece of fiction, and a well written one at that, and I appreciated it as such. And back then I was like 16 or 17, hardly "grown up" in the eyes of the media, and unable to make adult decisions.... :P

I wasn't miffed at all knowing the controversial theme of the game, or seeing it all first hand. Instead I found it very intriguing, and great, well-written entertainment... completely separate from the real world and my real world beliefs.

Johan

10-17-2008, 11:15 AM

Xenogears, eh? Time for a recall drive...

What's that? I'm too late? Damn!

BTW: You gonna share that bagel, or hog it all to yourself? :D

Psykoboy2

10-17-2008, 11:23 AM

Apparently the expressions in question are:

"Every soul shall have the taste of death"

"All that is on earth will perish"

If that's true, seems kinda bleak for such a happy looking game.

bone_matrix

10-17-2008, 11:31 AM

Ouch!!

On the bright side, it will hopefully release closer to the time I'll own a PS3 again. Sucks for those who wanted it day one though.

Tayaya

10-17-2008, 11:31 AM

Xenogears, eh? Time for a recall drive...

What's that? I'm too late? Damn!

BTW: You gonna share that bagel, or hog it all to yourself? :D

It's actually a donut. A Tex-Ass, from Voodoo Donghnut, to be exact. Wyeast brought me a shitload of sugary goodness for PAX this year. I must say, the goatse donut was a lot more delicious than anything else involving the word goatse ever could be.

Psykoboy2

10-17-2008, 11:34 AM

It was much better than the "2 Girls 1 Donut".

biosc1

10-17-2008, 11:34 AM

The Muslims, on the other hand, would kill those responsible. Remember the cartoons? Remember when Salman Rushdie was knighted? Thats the difference; your reaction = reasonible, their reaction = completely over the top. Would you want the music composer to die because some idiot cant take a joke?

Now now, remember, it's just a small radical minority of the Muslim faith that would even think of going so far. There are radicals in all religions. There are also a very large number of everyday normal people practicing the Muslim faith in North America who are just as peeved as you and I about the delay in LBP and wouldn't want to have seen this game delayed because of this.

Deadend

10-17-2008, 11:34 AM

Well, I guess this settles the thread on "Which will sell more, Fable 2 or LBP?"

Tayaya

10-17-2008, 11:36 AM

It was much better than the "2 Girls 1 Donut".

I dunno about that. Backseat Killer and TurboKinny really did enjoy sharing those Cock n' Balls donuts.... but I think that was 2 girls, 2 donuts.

fitbabits

10-17-2008, 11:38 AM

Here's the official Sony statement:

During the review process prior to the release of LittleBigPlanet, it has been brought to our attention that one of the background music tracks licensed from a record label for use in the game contains two expressions that can be found in the Qur'an. We have taken immediate action to rectify this and we sincerely apologise for any offence that this may have caused.
How the FUCK did this get to the 'review process' before being spotted?

bapenguin

10-17-2008, 11:42 AM

Here's the official Sony statement:

How the FUCK did this get to the 'review process' before being spotted?

Because nobody noticed it until a group of folks sent them a letter.

http://kotaku.com/5065106/nsiders-letter-to-sony-and-media-molecule-re-quran-references

This was definitely a reactive thing, not a proactive thing.

fitbabits

10-17-2008, 11:46 AM

Because nobody noticed it until a group of folks sent them a letter.

http://kotaku.com/5065106/nsiders-letter-to-sony-and-media-molecule-re-quran-references

This was definitely a reactive thing, not a proactive thing.

Then Sony/Media Molecule dropped the ball big time.

November 14th seems likely to be the new release date, pitting LBP against Gears of War 2.

Squidbot

10-17-2008, 11:46 AM

Utterly gutted :( Was so looking forwards to this next week.

roboninja

10-17-2008, 11:50 AM

Here's the official Sony statement:

How the FUCK did this get to the 'review process' before being spotted?

See, my reaction is, "Why the FUCK should they care?"

TrackZero

10-17-2008, 11:51 AM

Yay, religious zealotry delaying games now too. :rolleyes:

And yet if it had said (don't read if you're practicing Jewish):

Yahweh

and been recalled, I doubt you'd see so many pissed. Don't be biased or a jerk over this, if you should be mad at anyone, it's the developer for making this obvious mistake. I'm agnostic, but I'm not about to offend someone over something for no good reason (rather than to act like a superior prick, propagating the atheist asshole stereotype, just respect this shit and get over not being able to play your game slightly earlier).

mister slim

10-17-2008, 11:51 AM

Well, FUCK.

TrackZero

10-17-2008, 11:52 AM

See, my reaction is, "Why the FUCK should they care?"

Because it's something on a personal level. It's the equivalent (in their minds) as a family member being directly insulted in a product. It's bad form and you don't do it. Whether you understand that or not, well, who cares? The issue is still there and most of us get it.

DoctorFinger

10-17-2008, 11:53 AM

Here's the official Sony statement:

How the FUCK did this get to the 'review process' before being spotted?The recitation is in Arabic, and comes from a piece of what sounds like stock music. So it's not that egregious.

And to answer one question about the religious aspect. One of the core tenets of Islam is that the Qua'ran was dictated word for word to Muhammad by God. Technically it's not even supposed to be translated out of Arabic for that reason. That's why even when speaking other languages Muslims use the term Allah and not God in that language. No Christian faith makes that assertion about the bible, therefore the actual words are not as...protected. There are a lot of other factors involved, but keep that in mind.

you know what? If they want to recall it in Europe because the EU is slipping towards fascism, that's fine. Here in America, the First Amendment says release the goddamn game.No one was going to prevent them from releasing the game here, they just want to avoid trouble. That's unfortunate but not fascism.

TheFlyingOrc

10-17-2008, 11:58 AM

Then Sony/Media Molecule dropped the ball big time.

November 14th seems likely to be the new release date, pitting LBP against Gears of War 2.

Well, those are two heavily overlapping target demographics.

Gorvi

10-17-2008, 11:59 AM

Ugh, now this sucks.

TrackZero

10-17-2008, 11:59 AM

Freedom of Speech. Full Stop. You can sue but you will and should lose. To use a religious comparison an image of the cruxifiction was defecated on and diplayed as art. This is freedom of speech and barring ( the impressively few) limitation re incitement and immeint danger you are protected.

You're looking at this the wrong way. Sony would rather not offend, oh, 1.3 billion of the fucking population of the Earth over a minor delay to fix this. It's not about freedom of speech or suing. It's about respecting the customer.

TheFlyingOrc

10-17-2008, 12:00 PM

You're looking at this the wrong way. Sony would rather not offend, oh, 1.3 billion of the fucking population of the Earth over a minor delay to fix this. It's not about freedom of speech or suing. It's about respecting the customer.
Freedom of speech is a government issue. Businesses are not required to encourage freedom of speech.

rvieira

10-17-2008, 12:06 PM

Apparently the expressions in question are:

"Every soul shall have the taste of death"

"All that is on earth will perish"

If that's true, seems kinda bleak for such a happy looking game.

About this expressions? I was think that talks about some sacred entities or something, but this?

TrackZero

10-17-2008, 12:07 PM

Freedom of speech is a government issue. Businesses are not required to encourage freedom of speech.

I didn't say that that was the case, I said you're looking at it the wrong way. Sony, first off, isn't even an American company, so stop thinking like they are. They're delaying this to potentially not insult a large portion of the market, that's ALL this is. Anything else is you putting thoughts/words where they don't belong.

agentgray

10-17-2008, 12:08 PM

Sigh.

I don't understand why a patch would not fix this? One of the most customizable games ever made and it simply cannot be just turned off or told not to play?

IF "offending song" PLAY
THEN PLAY rnd("other songs")

Fixed.

(I'm not a game developer for LBP, and I know this is simplistic, but...)

National Kato

10-17-2008, 12:09 PM

Media Molecule weighs in: (http://www.mediamolecule.com/)

As some of you may have noticed, LBP has been slightly delayed in some territories. At MM we were as shocked and dismayed by this as anyone - shellshocked and gutted. We can’t wait for you all to get playing and creating!

We learnt yesterday that there is a lyric in one of the licensed tracks which some people may find offensive, and which slipped through the usual screening processes. Obviously MM and Sony together took this very seriously. LBP should be enjoyable by all. So within 12 hours of hearing about this issue involving a lyric (in Somalian, I believe!), we prepared an automatic day 0 patch and had a new disk image ready; however a decision was made within Sony that the right thing to do for quality and support of people with no on-line was to replace existing disks. They assure us that they are doing everything in their power to get things straightened out as fast as possible, and will announce dates soon.

Apologies to everyone excited to play the game and I can assure you that when it arrives, it will be worth the wait! We want everyone to be able to enjoy the game, and this tweak should help - we’re just gutted it couldn’t be sooner. MM continues to work hard to support the game too. We know that LBP will be something that you can enjoy for a long time to come, when all of this is forgotten and all that remains are thousands of incredible levels and creations to play, create and share.

Emphasis mine.

agentgray, they had the Day 0 patch ready, but Sony decided for those without online connections and, I'm sure, other corporate reasons, to fix it at the source.

Psykoboy2

10-17-2008, 12:10 PM

About this expressions? I was think that talks about some sacred entities or something, but this?

It isn't about what was said or expressed or whatever. It's using words from a book they hold sacred that is offensive. Especially when putting it in music like that. You need to read the link Bap posted a few messages ago.

Iron Past

10-17-2008, 12:10 PM

Someone should make a level that spells out the words to the song, that might be funny...

TrackZero

10-17-2008, 12:15 PM

Gorvi

10-17-2008, 12:16 PM

It doesn't look like it's as bad as it could've been, in North America we only have to wait an extra week. The official comment from the PlayStation Blog (http://blog.us.playstation.com/2008/10/17/littlebigplanet-release-update/):
During the review process prior to the release of LittleBigPlanet, it has been brought to our attention that one of the background music tracks licensed from a record label for use in the game contains two expressions that can be found in the Qur’an. We have taken immediate action to rectify this and we sincerely apologize for any offense that this may have caused.

We will begin shipping LittleBigPlanet to retail in North America the week of October 27th. Sorry for the delay, and rest assured, we are doing everything we can to get LittleBigPlanet to you as soon as possible. We’ll report back as soon as we have another update.
Emphasis mine.

KidCactus

10-17-2008, 12:17 PM

Because not everyone is online and will get the patch.
Put a sticker on the cover, telling people about the problem and let them send it in if they want a different version.

TrackZero

10-17-2008, 12:17 PM

Someone should make a level that spells out the words to the song, that might be funny...

I'm sure pictures of aborted babies in a level would be funny for those Catholic players to come across too....or not, just an asshole move by petty individuals with no respect for anyone outside of their monkeysphere. Grow up. If you have nothing intelligent to say, then stop talking.

Johan

10-17-2008, 12:18 PM

They're delaying this to potentially not insult a large portion of the market, that's ALL this is.

A large portion of the market? Oh please...that's baloney and you know it. The portion of the market that would be offended happens to be a portion that would pirate the game, AND would make a huge fuss over the content, thereby creating a ruckus.

As a conservative Christian, I'm offended on a daily basis by our culture/media. You know what I do? Stop engaging with offensive material, as ADULTS should do. I decide what I expose myself to, NOT what others expose themselves to. :rolleyes:

Sony caved. Preemptively. Period.

DoctorFinger

10-17-2008, 12:20 PM

Gorvi, I added your note from MM to the news post.

TrackZero

10-17-2008, 12:20 PM

Sony caved. Preemptively. Period.

Sony made a business decision, period.

Lutheran

10-17-2008, 12:22 PM

Johan

10-17-2008, 12:22 PM

Sony made a business decision, period.

They made a business decision to preemptively cave in to the potential for complaints from a sector of the world within which their products are more likely to be pirated than purchased.

Period.

If this were a Christian pressure-tactic, I know what the response would be on the boards, as well. It would not be "excuses" and "rationales."

TrackZero

10-17-2008, 12:22 PM

Put a sticker on the cover, telling people about the problem and let them send it in if they want a different version.

Yes, I'm sure if this had been something offensive to someone other than Muslims, that sticker would fly real well. "Sorry, this is the version with Satanic lyrics playing in the background, please send it in if you want the version with that removed." I can't believe you guys are even thinking like this.

TrackZero

10-17-2008, 12:23 PM

Seriously , its a fuckin game. We can wait the extra week or 2 to let them fix it so everyone can enjoy it and no one will have to worry about being assassinated.

I agree, and that's more to my point. But I'm easily riled when I see bigotry and small minded comments coming back about this.

agentgray

10-17-2008, 12:24 PM

Because not everyone is online and will get the patch.
I don't know the figures (someone does), but I'll bet more are online than off.

However, that's okay. It's not my royal screw up. I hope it costs them dearly. This was supposed to be Sony's big saving grace PS3 release, but it's like we got the Sony of the last two years. Just one big major screw up. I don't think they could afford a problem, but now they'll have to.

I know the SDF is out in full force on this citing offensive content (has anyone looked at almost any major game's content lately), but no matter how you look at it: Epic fail.

(...and I've been playing more PS3 than anything lately)

I'm seriously considering taking my $60 elsewhere. There's plenty of other options. I could save up longer but, bah, I've got a limited budget for each month, and this just means I'll get it (or gamefly it) much later.

Johan

10-17-2008, 12:24 PM

I agree, and that's more to my point. But I'm easily riled when I see bigotry and small minded comments coming back about this.

Here's a thought; you don't have the right to determine what is acceptable in a game I buy. Why the hell should any other group have that right?

Rate it and sell it, as is. People should make up their own damn minds about what they allow into their lives and homes.

I can't believe I have to be the one to defend this pretty basic concept. I'm quite conservative; give me carte blanche to censor your shit; I'll take it!

Gorvi

10-17-2008, 12:26 PM

I don't know the figures (someone does), but I'll bet more are online than off.

However, that's okay. It's not my royal screw up. I hope it costs them dearly. This was supposed to be Sony's big saving grace PS3 release, but it's like we got the Sony of the last two years. Just one big major screw up. I don't think they could afford a problem, but now they'll have to.

I know the SDF is out in full force on this citing offensive content (has anyone looked at almost any major game's content lately), but no matter how you look at it: Epic fail.

(...and I've been playing more PS3 than anything lately)

I'm seriously considering taking my $60 elsewhere. There's plenty of other options. I could save up longer but, bah, I've got a limited budget for each month, and this just means I'll get it (or gamefly it) much later.
Wow, overreact much?

TrackZero

10-17-2008, 12:27 PM

They made a business decision to preemptively cave in to the potential for complaints from a sector of the world within which their products are more likely to be pirated than purchased.

Period.

I can agree with that statement. But that's still not to say their products don't sell to that market, or that it won't "taint" their name in other products that Sony as a corporation produces if they didn't address it. The pressures of being a megacorp, one can wager.

If this were a Christian pressure-tactic, I know what the response would be on the boards, as well. It would not be "excuses" and "rationales."

Depends. Something that could really offend a majority of Christians as a basic tenet of their faith being put into a game, I wouldn't blink an eye at it being removed and causing a delay. Though this wasn't a "pressure tactic" at all, so it's rather moot to even bring that up.

TheFlyingOrc

10-17-2008, 12:28 PM

I didn't say that that was the case, I said you're looking at it the wrong way. Sony, first off, isn't even an American company, so stop thinking like they are. They're delaying this to potentially not insult a large portion of the market, that's ALL this is. Anything else is you putting thoughts/words where they don't belong.

I was supporting your point, not contradicting it. Sorry.

rvieira

10-17-2008, 12:28 PM

It isn't about what was said or expressed or whatever. It's using words from a book they hold sacred that is offensive. Especially when putting it in music like that. You need to read the link Bap posted a few messages ago.

Just read the full letter, and looks like some world music lover at Media Molecule should do some research on what they sing on these non-English songs, beside the cool beat it may have. It’s a pretty much darker lyric for a game like LBP.

agentgray

10-17-2008, 12:30 PM

Wow, overreact much?

No. Let me give some background. I have the week off next week and wanted to play a new game. I had $60 set aside for LBP (actually less, because some of it is paid off).

I don't see it as an overreaction. I just want something new. My budget is $50 a month with rollover. The $60 I have set for October is going to something else.

Hence, my comment about getting it later.

Sony screwing the pooch? I think that's fact, not overreaction. Of course, I do think that the "concerned group" that sent the letter, Sony, and us here are overreacting.

TrackZero

10-17-2008, 12:32 PM

Here's a thought; you don't have the right to determine what is acceptable in a game I buy. Why the hell should any other group have that right?

Again, no group did. Sony did. Quit trying to spin this into a freedom of speech thing, which it isn't, at all.

Rate it and sell it, as is. People should make up their own damn minds about what they allow into their lives and homes.

Well now this is an interesting line of dialog. You can compare it to any rated content found in gaming (i.e. Manhunt, other M rated titles), and how that effects sales, and whether the publisher is willing to take the hit on that, or "reel" their content back in for a T rating and more sales. In this case though, the publisher used their own judgment to figure out the impact of a delay versus lost sales and made their choice. You don't have to agree with it, but in the end it's up to them as the ones publishing it.

I can't believe I have to be the one to defend this pretty basic concept. I'm quite conservative; give me carte blanche to censor your shit; I'll take it!

Well, that's simple, because you're defending something that isn't here, that's why you're the only one. Again, it's not censorship or freedom of speech at issue here at all. No one forced anyone to do anything. As you said it, Sony made a "chickenshit" move to do what they thought would best help themselves make money, that's all she wrote.

TrackZero

10-17-2008, 12:33 PM

I was supporting your point, not contradicting it. Sorry.

Nah nah, my bad dude, I just misread your comment.

Worldcrafter

10-17-2008, 12:34 PM

Bad news for LBP fans, great news for Toumani Diabate.

Urizen

10-17-2008, 12:34 PM

What's this fire temple thing? I'm not familiar.

XRnfI3mJRP8

You can hear the chant say 'Allah hu Akbar' (God is Great) and 'Bismillah hi-Rehman hi-Rahim' (In the Name of Allah, the Beneficient, the Merciful) among other things.

Johan:

The point is MM was unaware of the content of their game. They altering it to reflect what they intended. They weren't aware, when they chose that sample of the song, that there were any religious intonations. It would appear they did not want any religious intonations.

I don't see that as bowing to special interests or curbing your freedom of expression.

Tayaya

10-17-2008, 12:35 PM

Wow, overreact much?

Just a tad.

UnderHero5

10-17-2008, 12:36 PM

BAH.

I feel like I've been waiting for this game forever. I can't believe they would recall the game over something like this. I could see patching it, or printing new disks... but not a recall.

Oh well, I guess this gives me some time to play Fable 2 next week. Yet again, I wait for LBP's release.

agentgray

10-17-2008, 12:38 PM

Just a tad.

See my response. :D

Johan

10-17-2008, 12:39 PM

Again, no group did. Sony did. Quit trying to spin this into a freedom of speech thing, which it isn't, at all.

It is entirely freedom of speech. They caved preemptively, and you're doing just what Sony wants done, which is giving them a pass on their decision to cave in to just the possibility of complaints from a small group of people who represent a tiny, tiny fraction of their business.

No one forced anyone to do anything. As you said it, Sony made a "chickenshit" move to do what they thought would best help themselves make money, that's all she wrote.

Nobody had to force Sony to do it. The mere THREAT of what has happened in the past has pressured them to do it. A company doesn't recall a game that's already printed, costing who knows how much and pissing off actual customers for no reason at all...they did it because Europe has a very vocal, very pissy and growing fundamentalist-Muslim minority that has proven itself violent and vocal in the past.

Period. Reality.

Sony didn't give a shit about Catholic cathedrals in their game, did they? Point? If a group bitches loudly and violently enough, eventually you no longer even need to bitch and act violently; the threat/possibility of it is enough.

Evewalker

10-17-2008, 12:40 PM

Overtly sensitive extremists can be found in any established religion or dogma, but it's the media and current political climate that has turned anything Islam into a instant talking point. Offended people have always been a hot news item. Offended people blowing themselves and others up is even hotter.

The moment that anything offensive to Islam is presented to us, our minds immediately display images of enraged zealots in the streets and suicide bombs exploding, because that's what we're exposed to. We now expect that violent reaction because it's what has been displayed to us as the identity of a faith, when in fact, it's not Islam, it's Islamic extremism.

Sony's reaction here has less to do with Muslims being offended, and more to do with the fact that it's pretty much standard operating procedure when something of this nature slips through the cracks, which is unfortunate. Like any still sane spiritual person, A lot of Muslims out there honestly wouldn't care about something like this, and if anything, I'd be willing to bet a few are probably far more annoyed that they are going to have to wait for LBP a little longer because of it. :)

agentgray

10-17-2008, 12:42 PM

muddi900

10-17-2008, 12:42 PM

LarsenNET

10-17-2008, 12:43 PM

3 weeks until Gears 2 is released. Could you imagine if that got delayed 2 or 3 weeks for any reason. Can't wait until the 7th. :D

TrackZero

10-17-2008, 12:51 PM

It is entirely freedom of speech. They caved preemptively, and you're doing just what Sony wants done, which is giving them a pass on their decision to cave in to just the possibility of complaints from a small group of people who represent a tiny, tiny fraction of their business.

Freedom of speech is when speech is blocked, it wasn't, hence it's not a freedom of speech issue. Don't troll man, it's unbecoming of you.

Nobody had to force Sony to do it. The mere THREAT of what has happened in the past has pressured them to do it. A company doesn't recall a game that's already printed, costing who knows how much and pissing off actual customers for no reason at all...they did it because Europe has a very vocal, very pissy and growing fundamentalist-Muslim minority that has proven itself violent and vocal in the past.

Yeah, I guess I'm being repressed due to the mere THREAT that I can't tell a coworker to fuck off because I don't like what he's doing. Oh, woe is me, my rights have been stomped on. You want to talk about babying? That's what you're doing right now.

Johan

10-17-2008, 12:56 PM

Freedom of speech is when speech is blocked, it wasn't, hence it's not a freedom of speech issue. Don't troll man, it's unbecoming of you.

It was indeed blocked...blocked by concern over the reaction of the Muslim community. There is no other explanation for taking such a financial and public-relations hit.

And you can stuff the trolling crap, as it is just that; crap.

Yeah, I guess I'm being repressed due to the mere THREAT that I can't tell a coworker to fuck off because I don't like what he's doing. Oh, woe is me, my rights have been stomped on. You want to talk about babying? That's what you're doing right now.

I have absolutely no idea what the fuck kind of tangent you're going off on, but it's certainly interesting...

Sony is recalling the game for one reason, and one reason alone; the potential reaction of a reactionary minority group. It's that simple. It's preemptive censorship.

GrenMag

10-17-2008, 12:57 PM

I get what you're trying to say, and it's a good point, but not quite the same thing.

Using some text from a book someone may love and cherish, and a picture of your Grandpa gaying it up are not in the same league. Is the text they borrowed being used to denigrate the religion? I highly doubt it. So what it amounts to is equal to a picture of your Grandpa...that's it, just a regular old picture of him. Would you still be so pissed?

I'll readily admit my example was a tad inflammatory. My reaction to the use of his image really all depends on what his stated wishes were. I wouldn't be "pissed", per se. If he had stated he didn't want his image used outside certain contexts I'd try to respect that and have the usage removed -- through socially sanctioned mechanisms instead of death threats or random bombing, of course.

To me at least it's very similar, there's just a lot more people who believe in God than believe in my grandpa.

rinichanraar

10-17-2008, 12:58 PM

From a completely selfish standpoint, I don't mind. Like Sandman, this game will be more affordable for me a week later.

Shadowstorm

10-17-2008, 01:00 PM

Evewalker

10-17-2008, 01:02 PM

It should be posted on the front page that the song in question is available on iTunes, zune and other digital stores, as well as the artists' myspace page. Not to mention that the song won a grammy. Yet "people" were "offended" when it was featured in LBP!

I don't think this is the case at all.

In fact, I doubt that a single Muslim, or anyone for that matter, being truly offended even started this issue. The people who we will hear of being offended by this will be offended only because Sony has now brought it into the public eye, and being extremists, they will object simply to maintain their political stance of oppression and mockery from the west. The average Muslim simply wouldn't care about this, as they are too busy leading a normal, happy, and productive life.

What really happened was that a person, very likely a non-Muslim, discovered the lyrics in LBP. Because of the taboo of offending radical Islam, Sony immediately freaked, and decided to turn it into a now escalating media issue.

And, sadly, it's not their fault, because an irrational fear of Islamic violent reaction has been instilled in us.

Johan

10-17-2008, 01:06 PM

What really happened was that a person, very likely a non-Muslim, discovered the lyrics in LBP. Because of the taboo of offending radical Islam, Sony immediately freaked, and decided to turn it into a now escalating media issue.

And, sadly, it's not their fault, because an irrational fear of Islamic violent reaction has been instilled in us.

I think this is quite accurate and reasonable. However, the fear is not entirely irrational. I won't list cases, but there's plenty of circumstances where people's lives have either been ended, or been entirely changed (going into hiding) in response to very real threats related to fundamentalist/extremist Muslims.

muddi900

10-17-2008, 01:07 PM

I don't think this is the case at all.

In fact, I doubt that a single Muslim, or anyone for that matter, being truly offended even started this issue. The people who we will hear of being offended by this will be offended only because Sony has now brought it into the public eye, and being extremists, they will object simply to maintain their political stance of oppression and mockery from the west. The average Muslim simply wouldn't care about this, as they are too busy leading a normal, happy, and productive life.

What really happened was that a person, very likely a non-Muslim, discovered the lyrics in LBP. Because of the taboo of offending radical Islam, Sony immediately freaked, and decided to turn it into a now escalating media issue.

And, sadly, it's not their fault, because an irrational fear of Islamic violent reaction has been instilled in us.

This topic will be a lot less hot if one of the mods/admins, kindly post the myspace (http://www.myspace.com/toumanidiabate) link of the song in question on the front page. Please stop making it a political issue, cause it's not. It's suits being suits.

Johan

10-17-2008, 01:14 PM

Please stop making it a political issue, cause it's not. It's suits being suits.

Of course it's a political issue. It's also a religious one. The suits made a decision that the potential backlash over taking the material out was more acceptable than the potential backlash from leaving it in.

In other words, they're catering to a particular segment of the market. A very small segment of the market. The rest of their customers are taking a back seat on this one. There's less to worry about from them.

As for this being hot, I haven't seen anyone throwing around insults, other than perhaps TrackZero. It's a very rational discussion.

Telefrog

10-17-2008, 01:14 PM

It should be posted on the front page that the song in question is available on iTunes, zune and other digital stores, as well as the artists' myspace page. Not to mention that the song won a grammy. Yet "people" were "offended" when it was featured in LBP!

I assume that anyone that seeks out this song either already knows what's in it or as a world music listener wouldn't be too upset at the content. If not, it's only 99 cents. It's a bit different when someone buys a seemingly harmless platform game, whose PR is the kid-friendly Sackboy, and has no specific focus on religious themes, and is suddenly be confronted with objectionable song lyrics. Oh, and $60 are gone.

You guys are really amazing today. I cannot believe the amount of prejudice and hypocrisy in this thread. Sony made a decision to avoid offending a religious group. It's a simple business decision. You don't have to agree with it. It's not your business.

Telefrog

10-17-2008, 01:16 PM

In other words, they're catering to a particular segment of the market. A very small segment of the market. The rest of their customers are taking a back seat on this one. There's less to worry about from them.

Of course there's less to worry about from the people that aren't offended by the lyrics. They're (for the most part) still going to buy the game after bitching on forums.

Johan

10-17-2008, 01:18 PM

I cannot believe the amount of prejudice and hypocrisy in this thread.

That's bullshit and you know it. People have been, on the whole, very rational and reasoned, considering it is a forum and not a meeting of the Mensa debate society.

You and others like you who step into a genuine discussion like this, tossing around accusations of hypocrisy and prejudice, poison the entire thing with unnecessary trolling and unfounded insults.

This is a genuinely interesting issue. Sony decided that the bulk of its potential customers' reactions to this delay, and the cost involved, would be less of a problem than the potential problems associated with leaving this content in.

That's quite interesting and open for great discussion. It's also blatant self-corporate-censorship, and a double-standard.

Evewalker

10-17-2008, 01:22 PM

I think this is quite accurate and reasonable. However, the fear is not entirely irrational. I won't list cases, but there's plenty of circumstances where people's lives have either been ended, or been entirely changed (going into hiding) in response to very real threats related to fundamentalist/extremist Muslims.

Johan, I do agree with you on that point, and I should have been more clear.

While I do believe that the threat of radical Islamic violence has been vastly overblown in western society for a variety of emotional, political, and racial reasons, it is still a threat. Just as all extremist viewpoints are a threat as well, both at home and abroad.

My point was that it is irrational to think that all of Islam is a threat, when the true threat is hard line extremism. Extreme fundamentalism has destroyed many lives throughout history under the guise of many faiths, cultures, and nations.

Until we understand that the concept of extremism is the enemy, and not a specific version of it, it will continue to be a problem. Specifically because such extremism is often fed by the perceived marginalizing and broad fear of an entire culture, nation, or creed.

Yeti2005

10-17-2008, 01:25 PM

Well this just made my decision whether to get Fable II or LBP a lot easier. Fable II first and LBP further down the road.

Johan

10-17-2008, 01:25 PM

My point was that it is irrational to think that all of Islam is a threat, when the true threat is hard line extremism. Extreme fundamentalism has destroyed many lives throughout history under the guise of many faiths, cultures, and nations.

I agree.

The interesting thing is that in many respects, the Islam of Europe is actually less tolerant than the Islam of many Middle Eastern nations and/or Islamic-predominant societies. The younger generation of Islamic youth in Europe, who were born there, are actually become more and more radicalized. There are plenty of reasons for that, some better than others, but it's an interesting permutation to this whole situation. Sony knows this, and took preemptive precautions.

I strongly disagree with their doing so. It's a terrible precedent, and a double-standard.

Telefrog

10-17-2008, 01:25 PM

That's bullshit and you know it. People have been, on the whole, very rational and reasoned, considering it is a forum and not a meeting of the Mensa debate society.

You and others like you who step into a genuine discussion like this, tossing around accusations of hypocrisy and prejudice, poison the entire thing with unnecessary trolling and unfounded insults.

Oh, please, Johan. Spare me your righteous indignation. I wasn't even talking about you, but if you feel like wearing those shoes, be my guest. :D

If you don't like what I've said, that's fine, but dismissing it by categorizing it as trolling and poison does your argument no service.

My point is simple. This is a Sony decision. You don't like it? You're outraged about it? You wanted to buy LBP before, but now your freedoms have been trampled? Then by all means don't buy it. Make a point and send a message with your wallet. Write angry missives to Sony.

Sony, frankly, knows that most of the internerd outrage over this is exactly that. Hollow posturing. They're gambling (quite safely, IMHO) that most of the people bitching about this will actually buy the game anyway, regardless of the delay. On the flipside, not taking the offensive song out would be a huge PR hit and a guarantee of losing sales from that sector.

The people that won't buy LBP due to being offended by the delay is well less that the number of Muslims that would've been raising a stink on blogs and in the court of the media.

Siraris

10-17-2008, 01:26 PM

No. Let me give some background. I have the week off next week and wanted to play a new game. I had $60 set aside for LBP (actually less, because some of it is paid off).

I don't see it as an overreaction. I just want something new. My budget is $50 a month with rollover. The $60 I have set for October is going to something else.

Hence, my comment about getting it later.

Sony screwing the pooch? I think that's fact, not overreaction. Of course, I do think that the "concerned group" that sent the letter, Sony, and us here are overreacting.

I have to agree that you seem to be over reacting to this. How is this "Sony screwing the pooch"? There was something in the game that could potentially offend people, and create a headache for them. They weren't aware of it until now, and they are rectifying it. I don't see why this is such a big deal, and why you can't wait another 3 or 4 days for the game?

Johan

10-17-2008, 01:28 PM

If you don't like what I've said, that's fine, but dismissing it by categorizing it as trolling and poison does your argument no service.

Post proof of hypocrisy and prejudice from this thread. Where is it?

Don't point at my argument as weak. I merely ask for evidence of your pretty harsh accusation. :rolleyes:

The people that won't buy LBP due to being offended by the delay is well less that the number of Muslims that would've been raising a stink on blogs and in the court of the media.

Well...that's what I've been saying over and over. We agree on that point.

Telefrog

10-17-2008, 01:37 PM

Post proof of hypocrisy and prejudice from this thread. Where is it?

Don't point at my argument as weak. I merely ask for evidence of your pretty harsh accusation. :rolleyes:

Prejudice:

Ok, but how many of these radicals play playstation 3 games? I would think they are more worried about food, water, and ducking RPG's.

Someone should make a level that spells out the words to the song, that might be funny...

Hypocrisy:

I'm seriously considering taking my $60 elsewhere. There's plenty of other options. I could save up longer but, bah, I've got a limited budget for each month, and this just means I'll get it (or gamefly it) much later.

Emphasis mine because we all know that's going to happen. Edit: See below.

Is that enough Johan?

And I know we agree on the last point, but you're the one that freaked out and called me a troll.

agentgray

10-17-2008, 01:43 PM

I have to agree that you seem to be over reacting to this. How is this "Sony screwing the pooch"? There was something in the game that could potentially offend people, and create a headache for them. They weren't aware of it until now, and they are rectifying it.
As much as they've been going over the game, delaying it for this and that, and then missing this? Also, my past opinion of Sony has not been very high. I do want them to succeed. I think this is such a small thing for their flagship product.

I guess my Q/A standard is higher than most people. I'm entitled to overreact. I share my opinion and other people share theirs.

I'll still get the game, just later than I planned. (There's some irony in that statement I think).

Pale Ale

10-17-2008, 01:45 PM

What I find amazing is you can send a strongly worded letter too SCE and have them make poorly thought out, hundred million dollar decisions. Which apparently includes pushing back the keystone of their fall lineup

I loves me some COG so, you know, get on it!

sparkfizt

10-17-2008, 01:47 PM

I vote no. Is an explanation of my vote really required? Okay; here it is:

I have comparatively few problems with people outside of political and religious discussions. I find that when such topics come up, I have a hard time restraining my inner urge to go ballistic over things that I believe quite strongly about (and which others believe quite strongly in disagreeing with me about, of course). I just think that the P&R sub-forum ruined the other forum for me. leave it elsewhere. Please.

Of course, I'm just one voice and I'm having a tough time transitioning away from the old and into the new, so I don't expect to be around nearly as much as I was at the old site (prior to my ban). Also, I'm expecting my sixth any day and, frankly, I'm pretty damn busy IRL, so I expect to be posting a lot less in general. Also, while it's nice to be known, sometimes being known can reawaken old arguments, and the P&R forum would be fertile soil for such a thing.

Just no. Just. Say. No.

Time for a little self control when P&R topics come around?:P

Dukefrukem

10-17-2008, 01:49 PM

this is awful news :(

agentgray

10-17-2008, 01:50 PM

Prejudice:

Emphasis mine because we all know that's going to happen.

You really know what I'm going to do? You're not me. If you would read my followup posts you will see that I can take my $60 elsewhere for that release week, day, or even month. I am coming back to it, just not at the time Sony wants. It's my money. It's my terms. I'm not a lemming.

Thanks for calling me a name. I wish you would just add to the discussion instead of thread police, call others out, and on a personal note attack my character. Interesting how some of this issue is really about corporate opinion and we should accept even tolerate opinions. Then people share their own views on the issue and then some respond by going after them and not the really the story at hand.

LarsenNET

10-17-2008, 01:50 PM

Prejudice:

Hypocrisy:

Emphasis mine because we all know that's going to happen.

Is that enough Johan?

And I know we agree on the last point, but you're the one that freaked out and called me a troll.

What I posted was Prejudice? The fundamentalist radicals are the ones that are killing people or want americans dead, that is fact. Your every day Muslim does not apply.

Spigot

10-17-2008, 01:51 PM

Sigh. I really wanted to play this. At least it looks like it's only a one week delay.

Given that I have Dead Space this week and Fable 2 next week, I can handle not getting LBP until the 27th. If it gets pushed back much further, THEN we're going to be talking mucho snarliness, but I'm willing to wait a bit longer if need be.

I don't blame MM for this. Given that the lyrics were in Somalian, they probably just liked the music and never gave a second thought to what the lyrics would mean. Oh well.

Johan

10-17-2008, 01:51 PM

I find it highly interesting that people here are defending Sony's decision to effectively allow a subset of a religious group to come between its consumers and content.

I'm highly amused by the defense of that reality. I would love to see what the reaction would be if it were a different religious group being "appeased" (which is essentially what this is). I'd also love to know how you can defend this kind of decision in light of the fact that it opens up all kinds of potential "cans/worms" regarding where it ends.

Cartoons.
Books.
Game songs/content.

So, it's okay then? I need to ring up some local churches here and get going on some of the stuff I find objectionable. :D Give me the keys to that 'kingdom' and I'll get rid of a lot of stuff that I don't think you should be allowed to see or experience! :D

Is that enough Johan?

Three examples, each of which I find weak to say the least, in a thread over 120+ on an issue that can be highly controversial and heated but which has not been.

Your standards are extremely high, or your opinion of others here extremely low. Or both.

Time for a little self control when P&R topics come around?:P

If you have a problem with one of my posts in this thread, point it out and/or report it. I've been rational, clear, and uninflammatory/respectful.

Got anything to actually add to the thread topic? It's an interesting one.

Spigot

10-17-2008, 01:56 PM

I will say that I sympathize with Johan's stand on this matter. Given the way Christianity gets treated in all sorts of media, it annoys me to no end when something gets censored preemptively because it might, maybe, just possibly offend someone of another faith, be it Islam or otherwise.

But I've got other games to play for the next week or so. It's incredibly annoying to see this happen mere days before the game's release, but I'll make it through somehow.

National Kato

10-17-2008, 01:57 PM

LBP would've been delayed for Johan anyway, right? 'Cause you don't buy games at full release prices. :D

Problem solved, everyone!

Johan

10-17-2008, 01:58 PM

LBP would've been delayed for Johan anyway, right? 'Cause you don't buy games at full release prices. :D

Problem solved, everyone!

Shit. Cat. Bag. Out. ;)

I won't even own a PS3 until it comes down in price to around the $40 range. I kid...kinda. :)

sparkfizt

10-17-2008, 02:00 PM

If you have a problem with one of my posts in this thread, point it out and/or report it. I've been rational, clear, and uninflammatory/respectful.

Got anything to actually add to the thread topic? It's an interesting one.

Not particularly :) I gave up voicing my opinion when you're around back at EvAv. I felt compelled to post the P&R quote because i'm afraid you're falling back into your old prolific posting P&R angry self, when this directly contradicts your plans for posting here.

It's a surprising but not shocking turn of events, some bean counters decided it was worth it to pull the game compared to the potential percieved bad press it could generate. I think it's disappointing, but not surprising since SONY is trying to bank so much on this title.
Edit: oops, an opinion leaked out, sorry.

JayVe

10-17-2008, 02:02 PM

November 14th is my birthday, so I don't mind getting LBP on my birthday! :D

<--- greedy me!

Johan

10-17-2008, 02:03 PM

Not particularly :) I gave up voicing my opinion when you're around back at EvAv. I felt compelled to post the P&R quote because i'm afraid you're falling back into your old prolific posting P&R angry self, when this directly contradicts your plans for posting here.

First: Post all you like. Don't blame me if you don't.
Second: Exactly where have I been "angry" in this thread? :confused:
Third: Prolific isn't bad if you have opinions on an issue, as I do on this one.
Fourth: My plans for posting here are to post in threads I'm interested in. This one is fascinating to me.
Fifth: I have an internal conscience...really, I do. I don't need an external one! :D

Telefrog

10-17-2008, 02:05 PM

You really know what I'm going to do? You're not me. If you would read my followup posts you will see that I can take my $60 elsewhere for that release week, day, or even month. I am coming back to it, just not at the time Sony wants. It's my money. It's my terms. I'm not a lemming.

Thanks for calling me a name. I wish you would just add to the discussion instead of thread police, call others out, and on a personal note attack my character. Interesting how some of this issue is really about corporate opinion and we should accept even tolerate opinions. Then people share their own views on the issue and then some respond by going after them and not the really the story at hand.

Just to be clear, I didn't put your quote under the "prejudice" heading. It was under the "hypocrisy" heading.

And yes, you started indignant and offended over the decision, threatened that your were "seriously considering" not buying it, then a few posts later backpedaled to just buying it at a later date. That's hypocrisy to me.

Three examples, each of which I find weak to say the least, in a thread over 120+ on an issue that can be highly controversial and heated but which has not been.

Your standards are extremely high, or your opinion of others here extremely low. Or both.

Oh, I'm sorry. Did you just move your goalposts? Was I instructed to find X number of posts to qualify as having fulfilled your requirement? :D

You asked for examples, I cited them. Frankly, I don't feel like going through the whole thread to find others. Besides, based on the reactions I'm seeing those folks can defend their own positions without the mighty Johan helping them.

JayVe

10-17-2008, 02:06 PM

KidCactus

10-17-2008, 02:08 PM

November 14th is my birthday, so I don't mind getting LBP on my birthday! :D

<--- greedy me!
Stop being greedy, it was I that was supposed to get it on MY birthday! :mad:

National Kato

10-17-2008, 02:09 PM

I'd like to take this moment to say that, while a delay sucks, this is the 'right thing' for the company to do. The insensitive Sony of days gone by wouldn't care. But insensitive Sony also gave us the 'White Supremacy' advert, the 'Graffiti' adverts, and the 'goat slaying' press event.

True. When you're a multinational corporation with revenue streams coming from many different mediums and product categories, it's more complicated than some seem to think.

Spigot

10-17-2008, 02:09 PM

"All I want for Christmas is my LBP... LBP... LBP..." (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0G0LlXv-nyI)

Johan

10-17-2008, 02:12 PM

You asked for examples, I cited them.

You called people out for hypocrisy and prejudice. It's not here.

Nice try. :rolleyes:

agentgray

10-17-2008, 02:12 PM

And yes, you started indignant and offended over the decision, threatened that your were "seriously considering" not buying it, then a few posts later backpedaled to just buying it at a later date. That's hypocrisy to me.
I don't have a right to be offended? Sony decided not to offend one group, but in turn they offended me. That's not okay? I am/was indignant about it. However, I didn't think it was backpedaling. I just wasn't descriptive enough in saying I was taking my money somewhere else. I thought I rectified that in a later post, but apparently not. (I've repeated this twice already, but people see what they want).

In a sense, I'm sorry I may have offended you. I'm going to assume that because you've responded to my posts, but my assumption may be wrong. I think we're all assuming too much here.

It's time for me to move along.

Too bad for Sony. Too bad for gamers. It'll all be okay in the end I guess.

agentgray

10-17-2008, 02:13 PM

I'd like to take this moment to say that, while a delay sucks, this is the 'right thing' for the company to do. The insensitive Sony of days gone by wouldn't care. But insensitive Sony also gave us the 'White Supremacy' advert, the 'Graffiti' adverts, and the 'goat slaying' press event.

Good show Sony.

Respect

Now this is an argument in Sony's favor that I like. Thanks for showing it from this angle.

Superman's Dead

10-17-2008, 02:15 PM

On the one hand, I can see where there might be a problem. On the other hand...the kora is a difficult instrument to play, and the Griot who play them are incredibly skilled and versed in their religion and history. At least, traditionally. I doubt very much someone of that standing would use anything offensive or hurtful to a culture that's a part of him and his history.

(I just took my mid-term on this in world music. Hell yeah, liberal arts!)

EDIT: But I guess it's the presence of it in a video game that's the issue? Sigh. Poor sweet, PC Sony. It's okay.

Johan

10-17-2008, 02:16 PM

Now this is an argument in Sony's favor that I like. Thanks for showing it from this angle.

I agree with that. However, I'm more cynical than you. I don't see them doing the same thing if something offensive toward Christians or another religious group is found in a game under similar circumstances.

Time will tell. I think they caved. Perhaps they're just "sensitive."

KidCactus

10-17-2008, 02:19 PM

I don't see them doing the same thing if something offensive toward Christians or another religious group is found in a game under similar circumstances.
They never recalled Resistance when the Church of England had complaints about the Manchester Cathedral "desecration" in the game.

Psykoboy2

10-17-2008, 02:20 PM

They never recalled Resistance when the Church of England had complaints about the Manchester Cathedral "desecration" in the game.

No point, really. Resistance had been out for quite some time by then.

LongStepMantis

10-17-2008, 02:20 PM

I'll readily admit my example was a tad inflammatory. My reaction to the use of his image really all depends on what his stated wishes were. I wouldn't be "pissed", per se. If he had stated he didn't want his image used outside certain contexts I'd try to respect that and have the usage removed -- through socially sanctioned mechanisms instead of death threats or random bombing, of course.

To me at least it's very similar, there's just a lot more people who believe in God than believe in my grandpa.

Agreed.
Also, I believe in your Grandpa. :D

Telefrog

10-17-2008, 02:22 PM

You called people out for hypocrisy and prejudice. It's not here.

Nice try. :rolleyes:

Woah, now my examples have been downgraded in quality as well?

Three examples, each of which I find weak to say the least, in a thread over 120+ on an issue that can be highly controversial and heated but which has not been.

They went from being not enough and "weak" to not being good enough at all? Wow. Your goalposts really zip along don't they? :D The next time you issue a challenge I'll be sure to always have you explicity spell out the fulfillment conditions before taking you up on them.

Back on topic. Get over it folks. It's a week delay on a game.

sparkfizt

10-17-2008, 02:24 PM

First: Post all you like. Don't blame me if you don't.
Second: Exactly where have I been "angry" in this thread? :confused:
Third: Prolific isn't bad if you have opinions on an issue, as I do on this one.
Fourth: My plans for posting here are to post in threads I'm interested in. This one is fascinating to me.
Fifth: I have an internal conscience...really, I do. I don't need an external one! :D

I think it stems from having different definitions of heated debate. I'm not sure if I've ever seen you admit to going over the top, but often dont have issues calling people trolls, or engaging in snarky emoticons. Things like the rolleyes emoticons you so love always give the postings a bad tone of voice in my head. Call it a personal problem.

agentgray

10-17-2008, 02:25 PM

Back on topic. Get over it folks. It's a week delay on a game.
All said and done, I agree with you.

It threw off my purchase schedule, but that's exactly what it means.

Spigot

10-17-2008, 02:26 PM

All said and done, I agree with you.

It threw off my purchase schedule, but that's exactly what it means.Like I said, it just means more time to finish off Dead Space and get to work on Fable 2. Yay!

KidCactus

10-17-2008, 02:30 PM

No point, really. Resistance had been out for quite some time by then.
The point is that Sony reacted a bit different when handling that issue: they didn't give a crap about it and said they had done nothing wrong.

Johan

10-17-2008, 02:31 PM

Back on topic. Get over it folks. It's a week delay on a game.

Back on topic? You called out hypocrisy and prejudice. I've consistently pointed out it's not here. That's not a moving goalpost, that's you making a broad accusation in a thread that poisoned the thread for several posts worth.

You were wrong. Period. It's been a reasonable, respectful thread, barring your accusation and another.

I think it stems from having different definitions of heated debate.

If you think this is heated, then you never read my posts at the other site. I'm quite calm and enjoying the debate.

Spigot

10-17-2008, 02:34 PM

The point is that Sony reacted a bit different when handling that issue: they didn't give a crap about it and said they had done nothing wrong.Exactly. And does something become less offensive just because it has been in a game that was out for a few months/years?

JayVe

10-17-2008, 02:35 PM

Now this is an argument in Sony's favor that I like. Thanks for showing it from this angle.

And people claim I'm anti-Sony. No, I'm anti-asshole and anti-stupid. Releasing a game and then taking a shitstorm over the fallout would been stupid. Sony made a good call here, and I got nothing but respect for that.

Johan

10-17-2008, 02:37 PM

And people claim I'm anti-Sony. No, I'm anti-asshole and anti-stupid. Releasing a game and then taking a shitstorm over the fallout would been stupid.

Isn't having an inconsistent policy as regards issues such as these somewhat foolish as well? :confused:

I don't get the sense that they're consistent in this regard. Perhaps they will prove consistency going forward, but they haven't looking backward.

JayVe

10-17-2008, 02:38 PM

Isn't having an inconsistent policy as regards issues such as these somewhat foolish as well? :confused:

I don't get the sense that they're consistent in this regard. Perhaps they will prove consistency going forward, but they haven't looking backward.

Yes, being inconsistent is whack, but all I can do is praise then when they do well and lambaste them when they don't. They've made a LOT of dumb mistakes in the past, but each good one they make deserves to be recognized.

Every good action is the start of turning over a new leaf. Hopefully, it will be followed by more good decisions.

Telefrog

10-17-2008, 02:41 PM

Back on topic? You called out hypocrisy and prejudice. I've consistently pointed out it's not here. That's not a moving goalpost, that's you making a broad accusation in a thread that poisoned the thread for several posts worth.

As far as I can tell, you're the only person insisting on keeping this "poison" aspect of the thread going. Drop it, for Pete's sake. You asked for examples. I gave them to you. You then decided my examples weren't enough and weren't up to snuff. Guess what? It doesn't work that way. When I call out prejudice and hypocrisy, I apply my own value judgment which may or may not agree with others - as would anyone else making the same assessment. I'm sorry that my opinion doesn't conform to yours. Either deal with it and move on, or just move on.

Can we get back to the discussion about how Sony is killing freedom?

Johan

10-17-2008, 02:43 PM

When I call out prejudice and hypocrisy, I apply my own value judgment which may or may not agree with others - as would anyone else making the same assessment.

You assessed poorly.

Every good action is the start of turning over a new leaf. Hopefully, it will be followed by more good decisions.

You really support this decision? Where would the line be drawn when you wouldn't? You really think it's a good thing that a company is pulling a title because one small segment of a group could be offended?

That just confuses me. I see it exactly the opposite of that. Nothing positive at all. I'm certainly willing to be persuaded however. You brought up a good point previously that got me thinking.

TheFlyingOrc

10-17-2008, 02:45 PM

Telefrog

10-17-2008, 02:46 PM

You assessed poorly.

Really? Has it really come to this?

You're criticizing Sony for capitulating to religious demands, but you have no problem deciding whether or not my personal assessment of prejudice and hypocrisy merits consideration? You're making a value judgment on my value judgment?

Awesome.

Spigot

10-17-2008, 02:47 PM

I wonder if it's something bigger than the song. Maybe there was some massive flaw in the disc or the final code or something that got spotted after the game went gold and shipped and this is their way to deflect it.

Oh, look... my shiny tin-foil hat just arrived in the mail...

Johan

10-17-2008, 02:48 PM

It indicates a deeper cultural problem, not a specific problem with this particular decision.

I don't understand that.

You are currently being the Johan I do not like, as opposed to the one I like very much.

Because I have an opinion you do not share? Perhaps we can recall it and edit it out! I kid, I kid! :D

You're making a value judgment on my value judgment?

Awesome.

Yes I am. If you feel the freedom to call out people as hypocrites and prejudiced people, I'll feel the freedom to tell you, as I did in my initial response, that I think it's bullshit...when I think it's bullshit. Which in this case, I do.

JayVe

10-17-2008, 02:49 PM

You really support this decision? Where would the line be drawn when you wouldn't? You really think it's a good thing that a company is pulling a title because one small segment of a group could be offended?

That just confuses me. I see it exactly the opposite of that. Nothing positive at all. I'm certainly willing to be persuaded however. You brought up a good point previously that got me thinking.

I do believe this is a good decision. Just how some people blew each and every one of Sony's other insensitive blunders out of proportion, the same would happen to this. How would it be good for Sony, Gamers or the Gaming Industry if Sony underwent the shitstorm that would ensue from this?

The ONLY good thing that would happen is that WE would get the game in our hands a mere 2 weeks early. THAT, my friend, is a very narrow and greedy approach to a much bigger issue.

Again, I applaud Sony.

TheFlyingOrc

10-17-2008, 02:51 PM

Because I have an opinion you do not share? Perhaps we can recall it and edit it out! I kid, I kid! :D

No, because you are going on and on and on and on and on and on and on about it. We all understand your opinion at this point, and you're limiting discussion.

Johan

10-17-2008, 02:51 PM

I do believe this is a good decision.

I get that. I don't agree, but I get it. I wonder, when would it become a bad decision? Would editing out nudity be a bad one? Would taking out gore?

Assuming similar circumstances, would any kind of content change for this particular community be a good decision? Would any kind be bad?

No, because you are going on and on and on and on and on and on and on about it. We all understand your opinion at this point, and you're limiting discussion.

I'm pursuing an interesting discussion. I also said I didn't understand part of your post, yet you refused to elaborate and instead posted what exactly? Criticism of my posts?

What did you mean by the first part of your last post? This:

It indicates a deeper cultural problem, not a specific problem with this particular decision.

JayVe

10-17-2008, 02:53 PM

I get that. I don't agree, but I get it. I wonder, when would it become a bad decision? Would editing out nudity be a bad one? Would taking out gore? That's already been done by Sony. While BMXXX showed up on the GameCube and Xbox with topless (polygonial) breasts, the PS2 version had black bars over the naughty bits. This was their business decision.

JayVe

10-17-2008, 02:56 PM

Look, I want LBP to succeed. I applaud the approach of the game, and the creative aspect of it. It is simply COMMON SENSE to try and make your product appealing and non-offensive so that consumers embrace it. I also HIGHLY doubt that the artists 'true vision' will be comprised by changing this song. Nobody playing the game is going to 'miss' the lyrics. The ONLY effect they would have had is to upset people. THAT'S IT!

Changing the music isn't changing fundamental aspects of the game. I would also have enjoyed No More Heroes just as much (which is a lot) if the blood sprays were green, or blue, or black, or whatever.

Johan

10-17-2008, 02:57 PM

That's already been done by Sony. While BMXXX showed up on the GameCube and Xbox with topless (polygonial) breasts, the PS2 version had black bars over the naughty bits. This was their business decision.

I actually trust your opinion on this and would accept an honest response. Do you think that Sony (the Sony of today) would have done the same thing if we were talking about another religious group? Also, do you think that Sony did this in good faith, and not in bad faith?

If the answer to just one of those is a yes, I think I can grudgingly accept it and watch their future decisions with interest. A no to the first one would be a bit hard to swallow, but with just one yes out of two, I think I could give them a hearty pat on the corporate shoulder and accept it myself.

You would have the distinction of actually changing my mind. I didn't think it was possible. :)

Telefrog

10-17-2008, 03:01 PM

Yes I am. If you feel the freedom to call out people as hypocrites and prejudiced people, I'll feel the freedom to tell you, as I did in my initial response, that I think it's bullshit...when I think it's bullshit. Which in this case, I do.

If you think it's bullshit, that's fine. I have no issue with that, but don't paint me to be some kind of ninny with no relevant input to this discussion, Johan. I felt that people were being prejudicial and hypocritical. I said so. You then asked for examples. I responded. Instead of saying you considered those posts to not, in fact, be either prejudice or hypocritical, you decided to place a numerical and qualitative score to them and continued to dismiss my posts with one sentence replies. It's frankly insulting and snarky.

Again, I apologize if your opinion doesn't jibe with mine, but openly dismissing it as trolling doesn't make me shut down and ponder the quality of my posts. It's just going to make me reply in kind.

I feel we agree that Sony made a business decision based on a pretty simple economic model. How much money would it cost to recall and correct the offending matter as opposed to how much would it cost to handle the PR fallout of not correcting it? I think we both agree on the reason for their decision even though we differ on approval of it.

The Manchester Cathedral issue seems quite different to me because a) the game had long since shipped and sold before the issue was raised, b) by that point who knows how many copies weren't online, c) the Manchester Cathedral sequence was pretty important and excising would be significantly more difficult (and expensive) than replacing a song.

Johan

10-17-2008, 03:02 PM

openly dismissing it as trolling doesn't make me shut down and ponder the quality of my posts. It's just going to make me reply in kind.

You are correct, and I apologize. I was an ass. I will have my wife kick it severely when I get home. :o

Telefrog

10-17-2008, 03:05 PM

You are correct, and I apologize. I was an ass. I will have my wife kick it severely when I get home. :o

Crap, man! Don't apologize! This kind of written sparring is why I like your posting. :D

JayVe

10-17-2008, 03:08 PM

I actually trust your opinion on this and would accept an honest response. Do you think that Sony would have done the same thing if we were talking about another religious group? Also, do you think that Sony did this in good faith, and not in bad faith?

If the answer to just one of those is a yes, I think I can grudgingly accept it and watch their future decisions with interest. A no to the first one would be a bit hard to swallow, but with just one yes out of two, I think I could give them a hearty pat on the corporate shoulder and accept it myself.

Let me think...

Do you think that Sony would have done the same thing if we were talking about another religious group?
Honestly, I don't know. I don't think it comes down to religion, but respect. Sony should not have slaughtered a goat for their press event since there are a large number of people who feel it is wrong to do so. They should respect that in the same way they should have respected the use of the Church in Resistance, or the tensions in their White vs Black PSP advert.

Also, do you think that Sony did this in good faith, and not in bad faith?
Bad faith? I don't understand what you mean at all.

Look, these lyrics don't enhance the game for anyone. They aren't understandable to me or you (assumption). The only thing they serve to do AT ALL is to incite outrage. The song can be replaced, and then we can all enjoy some sweet LBP goodness.

http://brandnoise.typepad.com/brand_noise/images/sony_whitepsp_benelux_newsicon.jpg

What if the song was one that glorified slavery?

Offending people for no reason is pointless and counter productive.

Reverant

10-17-2008, 03:09 PM

So much for freedom of speech.

JayVe

10-17-2008, 03:11 PM

So much for freedom of speech.

There is no freedom of speech in a corporation. Sony prints the disc, and they get to decide what is on it. If you want to sing those lyrics, go right ahead. Nobody is stopping you. Want to print them? Write a song? Have a blast. Don't come crying to us when you piss off someone so zealous that they wish harm upon you.

Johan

10-17-2008, 03:11 PM

Look, these lyrics don't enhance the game for anyone. They aren't understandable to me or you (assumption). The only thing they serve to do AT ALL is to incite outrage. The song can be replaced, and then we can all enjoy some sweet LBP goodness...Offending people for no reason is pointless and counter productive.

Son of a gun. I have to give up my pistol-whipping of Sony. :(

You were the first one in the thread who made a point I had not even considered...or at least made it in a way I understood. You've convinced me.

Good...job...Sony.

That hurt a little. ;)

Telefrog

10-17-2008, 03:17 PM

Son of a gun. I have to give up my pistol-whipping of Sony. :(

You were the first one in the thread who made a point I had not even considered...or at least made it in a way I understood. You've convinced me.

Good...job...Sony.

That hurt a little. ;)

Wait! Not so fast! There's a twist (http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=13268092&postcount=960).

The original writer of the message that was sent to Sony / MM is called Yousef ( aka NSider ) , the whole story started 2 days ago @ True-Gaming.net forums..you can check it out if you want.

Mr.Yasser has nothing to do with that message, he was just copying it, he took the original form and added his name to it.

Oh.. I have a little surprise for you guys, Yousef is an active member at NeoGAF, and he is using the same nickname....NSider

That's right. A Gaffer (http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=13268277&postcount=1012) is the cause.

Just to be clear: I only asked for a patch. Mm was getting the patch ready but Sony decided to just delay the thing.

I didn't ask for a delay, and I definitely do not want a delay.

Spigot

10-17-2008, 03:20 PM

Wait! Not so fast! There's a twist (http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=13268092&postcount=960).

That's right. A Gaffer is the cause.Typical. I always tell people that NeoGAF is nothing but trouble and look, I WAS RIGHT!

Purple Santa

10-17-2008, 03:29 PM

What about the fraternization of unrelated male and female sackpeople?
We need to get you a PS3. I want to see your LBP created levels ;)

You can all play Petz and Barbie Horse Adventures and suck it. ;)

The best line of the entire thread...and I read all 19899 pages of it :p

I dunno about that. Backseat Killer and TurboKinny really did enjoy sharing those Cock n' Balls donuts.... but I think that was 2 girls, 2 donuts.

:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:

Ugh, now this sucks.
Best summation of the "crisis".

Bad news for LBP fans, great news for Toumani Diabate.

I don't know what Toumani Diabate is, but I think I need to play it now...

After reading through this thread...I didn't realize the P&R forum opened around here secretly :). I like the underground P&R...hiding it in game threads...

GrenMag

10-17-2008, 03:53 PM

... People have been, on the whole, very rational and reasoned, considering it is a forum and not a meeting of the Mensa debate society...

And that's a trend that cannot be allowed to continue.

So... uhhh... Screw you, you dirt-breathed knocktard. :rolleyes:

In all seriousness, though, I'm not really that concerned with it. On the one hand, I don't think I can seriously get upset about a company trying to not inadvertently insult a group. On the other hand it's troubling that large corporations are seemingly willing to kowtow to a small, extremely proactive group. Which I've seen with all sorts of fanboy groups, not just religious ones.

Until I know the real, base motivation for the action, I can't find anything to discuss further about this particular episode.

Spigot

10-17-2008, 04:12 PM

In all seriousness, though, I'm not really that concerned with it. On the one hand, I don't think I can seriously get upset about a company trying to not inadvertently insult a group. On the other hand it's troubling that large corporations are seemingly willing to kowtow to a small, extremely proactive group. Which I've seen with all sorts of fanboy groups, not just religious ones.So what you're saying is that we need to make Sony and other large corporations more afraid of angry gamers than angry religious groups...

I can get behind that...

Iron Past

10-17-2008, 04:12 PM

I'm sure pictures of aborted babies in a level would be funny for those Catholic players to come across too....or not, just an asshole move by petty individuals with no respect for anyone outside of their monkeysphere. Grow up. If you have nothing intelligent to say, then stop talking.

Regardless of the pages and pages of stupid comments I won't even bother to read, I will say your response to my comment was incredibly ill concieved. This is hardly the same thing.

You know where I can find the song, and the entire album? Zune Marketplace (http://social.zune.net/album/Toumani+Diabat%c3%a9s+Symmetric+Orchestra/Boulevard+De+LInd%c3%a9pendance/bd2b7500-0100-11db-89ca-0019b92a3933/details), iTunes (http://www.apple.com/itunes/affiliates/download/?trackName=Tapha+Niang&artistName=Toumani+Diabat%C3%A9%27s+Symmetric+Orch estra&thumbnailUrl=http%3A%2F%2Fa1.phobos.apple.com%2Fus %2Fr10%2FMusic%2F5a%2F46%2F30%2Fmzi.hyuhnvwj.100x1 00-75.jpg&itmsUrl=itms%3A%2F%2Fax.phobos.apple.com.edgesuite .net%2FWebObjects%2FMZStore.woa%2Fwa%2FviewAlbum%3 Fi%3D167315285%26id%3D167315125%26s%3D143441%26ign-mscache%3D1&albumName=Boulevard+de+l%27Ind%C3%A9pendance), Amazon (http://www.amazon.com/Boulevard-lIndependance-Toumani-Symmetric-Orchestra/dp/B000FVHKFW/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1224281287&sr=8-1), Circuit City (http://entertainment.circuitcity.com/Music/Album.aspx?prodid=NNS79953.2&store=Movies&si=ccity-prod&channel=b2c&partner=cc&catOid=-13219), Best Buy (http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=7895726&st=Boulevard+de+l'Independance&lp=6&type=product&cp=1&id=1551069), etc. The man who recorded it is a practicing muslim, and I doubt that it's truly the insulting piece of music you believe.

What everyone is assuming here is that muslims are the ones who will be offended, and I'm not so sure that was the initial assesment. Regardless, it's absolutely unneccesary to censor something so trivial because they think it might be offensive. I'm tired of being told what is appropriate and what is not. I'm sure there is an option to select what tracks play if it bothers you that much. For the resord, there have been plenty of music tracks on past games that have songs offensive to me, but now everyone tiptoes around anything to do with the muslim religion because it's taboo. Bullshit.

If any of this has already been said (and reputed), sorry, but your comment was way off base. I don't hate Sony for doing it or think they are dumb as a company, they're simply doing what they think is most benificial (for press), but what it implies is mind-numbing.

Spigot

10-17-2008, 04:17 PM

Good post, Iron Past. Whatever the case in this instance, I know that I'm really sick and tired of people who feel the need to be preemptively offended on someone else's behalf. That, and the fact that offending someone seems to be the worst thing one can do in this day and age.

Of course, the stuff I deal with on a daily basis in my job is the sort of thing that offends pretty much everyone with a remotely normal moral compass, so forgive me for not having a lot of time for people who get their knickers in a twist over a song lyric or the like.

Edit: I reread your post again, Iron Past, and as far as I'm concerned, that's the best summation of the entire issue I've seen in this thread. It's not so much what is being done as why, and that's what is scary.

agentgray

10-17-2008, 04:40 PM

Hmm. After stepping away from the discussion for an hour or two, I'd like to put on the tin foil hat...this is even after Iron Past's last post almost confirming it for me. Here goes:

I think something fishy is going on.

Please correct me if wrong. What we know:

A song written by a Muslim
Contains phrases from a Muslim holy text
is in a language most PS3 owners and LBP players may not understand
is a very small part of the soundtrack
won a Grammy without offensive fuss
could be offensive (I've not heard form someone yet)
Sony is HEAVILY banking on this title for success
Could be easily patched*

This song warrants an entire global recall? Recalls have been passed up for worse things. I wonder--and this is pure speculation--if there's something else involved in the recall and this song is a lesser of two evils to show otherwise?

Now, I know some people have it in their hands and it's been reviewed (we don't know if it's final copy reviews or preview copy), but maybe there's something there that some people may come across that they have not yet that is a show stopper.

I mean, think about it (even more I know). One song, that's very small in the scheme of things being so important that all the shipped copies (in the hundreds of thousands) have to be sent back...and they fix the issue, and have new copied burned, stamped, packaged, and shipped in around a week?

The logistics don't even hold up.

* I don't know if the "not all people are online" argument really sells me because this game is heavily influenced by online play.

Restlessavenger

10-17-2008, 04:46 PM

There is some good stuff here in this thread.
I would imaging that this might cause problems within their moderation of User Created Levels if it was left in.

Wouldn't it suggest a bit of hypocrisy were Sony/MM to pull down levels created with offensive themes (Trackzero's Abortion themed level comes to mind) when the disc itself includes this music that some people (not me) might find offensive?

The lyrics in question apparently just reference a few "End of Days" (http://www.metafilter.com/75732/LittleBigPlanet-Recalled#2302798) themes that pretty much all religions believe in some form or another.

Iron Past

10-17-2008, 04:46 PM

Edit: I reread your post again, Iron Past, and as far as I'm concerned, that's the best summation of the entire issue I've seen in this thread. It's not so much what is being done as why, and that's what is scary.

Why, thank you. I'd just like to add that world music, which is what this is filed under, actually provides for some interesting listening opportunities.

Kelegacy

10-17-2008, 04:51 PM

Wow, a lot of people have the game already in hand too that I've seen from various other areas around the internet. This is one big FUBAR situation.

Can you say collector's edition? Maybe eBay chumps will pay a ton to get the "original".

Restlessavenger

10-17-2008, 04:58 PM

The other thing to keep in mind is that it could also be considered by a fairly vocal minority in the States specifically as "supporting the terrorists".

Spigot

10-17-2008, 05:43 PM

The other thing to keep in mind is that it could also be considered by a fairly vocal minority in the States specifically as "supporting the terrorists".Do you think they're the target demographic for the game? If this were the case, I'd be even more angry than if it was because someone decided to be preemptively offended.

Restlessavenger

10-17-2008, 06:06 PM

Do you think they're the target demographic for the game? If this were the case, I'd be even more angry than if it was because someone decided to be preemptively offended.

I think everyone is the target demographic for the game, but I would imagine that there are a lot more of them that would be buying the game then Muslims that would likely be offended by it.

Urizen

10-17-2008, 06:26 PM

Obama is a Muslim and he's advertising in Burnout: Paradise.

Johan

10-17-2008, 06:28 PM

Obama is a Muslim

You aren't serious about that, are you? I don't give a hoot what anyone's religion is, but he claims to be a Christian.

I'm not getting the joke here. Is there one? :confused:

Inspector Fowler

10-17-2008, 06:35 PM

Yeti2005

10-17-2008, 06:54 PM

I freaking hate political correctness. Someone, somewhere is going to be offended by almost anything yet everyone tip toes around each other afraid that they're going to offend someone.

It's funny that they would go through this trouble for LBP but not Resistance.

darkbase

10-17-2008, 07:13 PM

I personally find this somewhat shocking. When Kanye West abuses the Bible in his raps, does it get recalled? When countless heavy metal and rock songs (even my beloved Queen!) contain Biblical references that I'd consider heretical, do those get recalled? Think of how many RPGs and horror games contain references to Biblical events or figures, do they get recalled?

I understand why Sony is (claiming they are) doing this, but it seems pretty one-sided to me. You either live a life of stupid over-caution, or you just make your games and decide to ignore the people who get all worked up about stuff.

It's not blasphemous to quote the Bible. It is strictly forbidden -by many but not all Muslims- to quote the Qur'an. It is seen as degradation and blasphemy, especially in a video game.

I've been watching and reading a lot of the uproar about this on Sony's website, PS3Fanboy, and here, and it's sad. And ironic. For the most part, a lot of people are getting offended and worked up because their anticipated game is being delayed for one week to avoid offending a major religion.

If you're really steamed about this, put it this way. What's worse: getting a video game you really want one week later than expect, or having a major rule of your religion spat upon by a highly regarding video game you were eagerly anticipating?

Sony could have issued an apology for the song, released a patch to erase it from the game, and face the embarrassing fact of copies floating around still containing the "infamous" song, (well apparently this is so, but it's a lot less than there would have been, now) but they instead caught this early and took care of it. Kudos. What if Rockstar did the same with Hot Coffee? I bet we'd have lots of people bitching about PC still.

Inspector Fowler

10-17-2008, 07:20 PM

@darkbase - I guess my point is that there are many, many things in video games that can be/are offensive to the Christian religion, and yet nobody cares. I'm sure there are other religions as well that could take serious offense at their portrayal in modern culture - I don't claim to be well educated on multiple faiths.

So what does "strictly forbidden" mean to "many but not all Muslims" that makes this somehow more offensive than any kind of Satanic/occult reference, blaspheming, depiction of violence or murder, etc?

Look, it's strictly forbidden in the Bible to take the Lord's name in vain, but I don't see Sony pulling all their games off the shelf with the word, "Goddammit" in it, do I?

So why the special attention for one of the world's many faiths when others are slighted all the time? It just seems odd to me.

Iron Past

10-17-2008, 07:27 PM

If you're really steamed about this, put it this way. What's worse: getting a video game you really want one week later than expect, or having a major rule of your religion spat upon by a highly regarding video game you were eagerly anticipating?

But there's never been an uproar over this song until now. What I'm seeing is Sony removing a cultural reference in a game that implies by it's title and focus on a diverse community an emphasis on bringing different types of people together. Then again, maybe I'm seeing it wrong or something. It still reeks of a publicity stunt to me (you can bet this will be on main stream news).

Johan

10-17-2008, 07:27 PM

I think it's important to remember the fundamental fact we can all take from this thread. And that is...

Obama is a Muslim and he's advertising in Burnout: Paradise.

:D

Restlessavenger

10-17-2008, 07:34 PM

Obama is a Muslim and he's advertising in Burnout: Paradise.

Thank you for proving my point.

Gerbs

10-17-2008, 07:37 PM

This is bad news, I was looking forward to this release and I don't even have a PS3. I bet whoever picked the music for this got a huge kick in the ass.
Look, it's strictly forbidden in the Bible to take the Lord's name in vain, but I don't see Sony pulling all their games off the shelf with the word, "Goddammit" in it, do I?

So why the special attention for one of the world's many faiths when others are slighted all the time? It just seems odd to me.
I think everyone is supposed to walk on eggshells around this particular religion, isn't that the general theory? It's dumb but I think it was a good move by Sony to keep this from getting out into the waters. We'll probably still see a lawsuit or two.

mister slim

10-17-2008, 07:57 PM

I do believe this is a good decision. Just how some people blew each and every one of Sony's other insensitive blunders out of proportion, the same would happen to this. How would it be good for Sony, Gamers or the Gaming Industry if Sony underwent the shitstorm that would ensue from this?

There's an interesting parallel here to the Hot Coffee incident, with people overreacting (or potentially overreacting, in LBP's case) to something not part of the creative team's intent. In the case of Hot Coffee, Rockstar North locked away the controversial content, making an authorial decision to not make it part of the experience. Still tons of controversy and lawsuits though. In the case of LBP, Media Molecule included a song they thought was cool without realizing the lyrical content could be controversial and not in keeping with the other creative decisions they were making.

darkbase

10-17-2008, 08:05 PM

Inspector Fowler: I'll agree with you that there are plenty of offensive things to Christians in video games, but we've really turned a blind eye to them because they've become so common. Millions of people, even Christians, say "Goddamnit" and "Jesus Christ!" when shocked, not because they're trying to be offensive, but because they don't take that particular commandment seriously.

From what I understand, many Muslims do their best to follow their given moral code. They take their religion, I guess you could say more seriously, when it comes to rules dictating their Holy text's representation. We can go on and on about the differences between the East and the West. What really bugs me are people that can't see it that way and can't understand that a person was raised with entirely different beliefs and customs, and that they are not wrong in them. Central Florida is rife with these people :(

Iron Past: I agree with you about the song. I wondered if it caused any uproar before, especially since it was by a Grammy winning artist. I Googled and Wiki'd it, to no avail. Maybe the song itself never reached a large audience before and went unnoticed? A Grammy, unfortunately, doesn't always mean attention to all of one's music.

What I'm seeing is Sony removing a cultural reference in a game that implies by it's title and focus on a diverse community an emphasis on bringing different types of people together.

Well it's not so much a "cultural reference", as it is a "religious offense" to those it's referencing. Your point about the game focusing on a diverse community proves Sony is doing the right thing in delaying the game to avoid offending a major religion, I think.

This discussion is going much better than I anticipated, but then again this is CoG!

shodan2020

10-17-2008, 09:17 PM

Religion is now messing about with videogame releases. Sweeeeet deal! :(

Variable Gear

10-17-2008, 09:51 PM

Remember, this happened to Ocarina of Time as well.

KingGorilla

10-17-2008, 10:07 PM

Way late to this party, sure someone already pondered this. But in innumerable shooters, I have killed Muslims, with wreckless abandon. But a song will get Sony bombed? If fucking Insurgency hit Steam, but Valve is not a smoking crater, I think the song can slip past.

H.Bogard

10-17-2008, 10:09 PM

Guess we won't be hearing Muslim rock bands anytime soon.

Actually... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sU7jVdC192k)

Zanzibar

10-17-2008, 10:15 PM

Holy crap, somebody's gonna get fired for this. Major letdown.

What really sucks is that I bet it's a 4-second patch. They have to recall them because of the random folks who aren't online.

H.Bogard

10-17-2008, 10:22 PM

Anyone remember that church thing in Resistance?

Yeah, you wonder why Sony drastically recalled.

KingGorilla

10-17-2008, 10:27 PM

Anyone remember that church thing in Resistance?

Yeah, you wonder why Sony drastically recalled.

But that was a real place, in an area with a real crime problem. It is the same deal as car companies will not allow their cars to be wrecked videogames.

H.Bogard

10-17-2008, 10:35 PM

But that was a real place, in an area with a real crime problem. It is the same deal as car companies will not allow their cars to be wrecked videogames.

Uh... so what about Forza and NFS PS?
This is being publicized way more than it needs to be, though.

KingGorilla

10-17-2008, 10:37 PM

No, real Wrecks, a La Burnout, or GTA. Cars are not wrecked in most games, the paint gets scratched.

H.Bogard

10-17-2008, 10:51 PM

No, real Wrecks, a La Burnout, or GTA. Cars are not wrecked in most games, the paint gets scratched.

I'm pretty sure cars got fucked in Pro Street (as well as many other racing games like TOCA):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mt-B_1x8nSs

KingGorilla

10-17-2008, 10:53 PM

I stand corrected, Need for Speed Pro Street did.

H.Bogard

10-17-2008, 11:06 PM

I stand corrected, Need for Speed Pro Street did.

As did Grid and Toca. You don't play too many racing sims, do you? ;)

KingGorilla

10-17-2008, 11:11 PM

Last one I saw running was something along the lines of...What was the Need For Speed that came out in 02? I do not think Motorstorm counts, as it did not have real cars from what I saw.

And that was my point, you do not see street cars wrecked up in these games. I saw bat shit insane rice wagons in NFS.

BigJonno

10-18-2008, 03:45 AM

The amount of ignorance surrounding this is amazing. It's not been so bad here, but Eurogamer was filled with "Fuck you ragheads!" type comments. The religious aspect is irrelevent (though I do agree that amount of pussy-footing around Islam is ridiculous.) The actual lyrics are 'Every soul shall have the taste of death' and 'All that is on earth will perish.'

It's the equivalent of a new Mario game having a music track with the lyrics "You're all gonna die!" They didn't pull it for religious reasons, they pulled it for having scary lyrics in a family game.

Spigot

10-18-2008, 04:38 AM

It's the equivalent of a new Mario game having a music track with the lyrics "You're all gonna die!" They didn't pull it for religious reasons, they pulled it for having scary lyrics in a family game.
BUT IT WAS IN SOMALI!

Maybe there are a lot of Somali speaking gamers out there, but I think the vast majority of the world's gamer population would never have been the wiser as to the actual lyrics.

If the lyrics had been in English, Japanese or, say, French, then fine. I could understand them being wary. But in all my years of gaming, I've never seen a Somali localization team in the credits for a videogame, so methinks the percentage of gamers who would actually understand the lyrics as being as dark as they are, outside of the religious context, is pretty tiny.

BigJonno

10-18-2008, 04:48 AM

Actually it's in Arabic, which is spoken by a hell of a lot of people, especially in Europe where virtually ever Muslim regardless of race or nationality learns it.

JayVe

10-18-2008, 07:43 AM

It's funny that they would go through this trouble for LBP but not Resistance.
Funny. I consider it a Good Thing (tm) when someone learns from a previous mistake. Sony took a lot of flak for the Resistance thing. This time, they see the danger ahead and wish to avoid it.

A quick stop at Google reveals quite a few missteps. Here's a fun little list of little Sony blunders that someone should have stood up and stopped, BEFORE they happened.

Root Kits (http://www.usatoday.com/tech/columnist/andrewkantor/2005-11-17-sony-rootkit_x.htm)
Rumble is Last Gen (http://www.gamespot.com/news/6149586.html?q=ps3%20controller)
Sony says Wii Too Expensive (http://digitalbattle.com/2006/10/12/sony-exec-calls-wii-xbox360-expensive/)
PS3 runs at 120fps (http://www.gamespot.com/news/6136786.html)
PSP Graffiti Advertisements draw citizen ire (http://www.wired.com/culture/lifestyle/news/2005/12/69741)
Sony uses racial tensions to promote PSP (http://bandung2.blog.co.uk/2007/04/06/advert_analysis_sony_playstation_portabl~2042634)
Sony slaughters goat for PR (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-451414/Slaughter-Horror-Sonys-depraved-promotion-stunt-decapitated-goat.html)
All I want for Xmas is my PSP (http://www.joystiq.com/2006/12/11/sony-marketers-are-horrible-liars-pretend-to-run-fansite/)
PS2 - Because your girlfriend bores you shitless (http://blog.newsweek.com/photos/levelup/images/original/PlayStation-2-India-print-ad-2.aspx)

I'm glad the company is learning, and I'll applaud every good step they make to avoid crap like this:

http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q40/thewilleffect/album_pic.jpg

http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2007/04_03/sonygoatMS2804_468x448.jpg

http://blog.newsweek.com/photos/levelup/images/original/PlayStation-2-India-print-ad-2.aspx

0G0LlXv-nyI

darkbase

10-18-2008, 07:50 AM

'Every soul shall have the taste of death' and 'All that is on earth will perish.'

Look at the phrases as if they were pure statements of fact and not threats. They mean that all things on Earth will die at some point (scientific fact). Not YOU'RE ALL GUNNA FREAKIN' DIE! SLAYER4LYFE! \M/>_<\M/

BigJonno

10-18-2008, 07:57 AM

I don't see them as threats at all. I see them as something that could possibly scare the shit out of a kid and considering that in the UK it has a 7+ rating (I assume it has similar ratings worldwide,) I can see why they want to change it.

Johan

10-18-2008, 08:23 AM

Everyone is STILL missing the most important point in this thread (sarcasm). The one that has me scratching my head, like I've entered some kind of alternate reality.

Obama is a Muslim

WTF am I missing here? Am I just not in on the joke? I don't get it, and I want to.

:confused:

EternalGamer

10-18-2008, 10:14 AM

Wow...that's a pretty monumental screwup on a very basic thing...

what I want to know is why there's a double-standard...in my mind, there is.

I also want to know why the HELL there needs to be any censorship of content at all. WHY? Sell the game as is and let the CONSUMER make the decision as to whether it's personally offensive or not. I'm sick of games getting modified to please particular interest groups, and I'm a social conservative, too! Make the game you want to make, rate it and indicate its content honestly, and let individuals and the market decide whether to buy it or self-censor.

Is this so difficult? I don't find hack-and-slash movies my cup of tea, but I don't request Saw and Hostel be banned. I don't like really gory/scary games, but I don't think Manhunt should be banned.

I just don't get it. I'm quite conservative, but I also clearly recognize that I want to decide for myself what content I expose myself to, and NOT have others do that for me. Are people really such freaking babies that OTHERS must submit to THEIR restrictions on what they are exposed to in a game, movie, or song? :rolleyes:

Sony did it voluntarily. Nobody demanded it. And second, comparing it to adult material like "Saw" or "Hostel" is not the same. Sony wants this to be a family friendly games that is inoffensive to ALL people in a general audience. If they found the word "Fuck" in one of the songs, they would probably have recalled it as well. Those phrases have a double dose of being something that would make some people (both Christians and Muslims) apprehensive and also being violent statements. This is a kid friendly game and Sony wants to keep it that way.

Johan

10-18-2008, 10:16 AM

Nobody demanded it.

That's not correct. Read the thread. There was a complaint. The "complainant" claims he only wanted a patch, but it was a demand for a change, nonetheless.

Whether it's good or bad that Sony complied is up to your own interpretation, but there was indeed an impetus behind the change, and it came from outside of Sony.

Spigot

10-18-2008, 01:09 PM

Actually it's in Arabic, which is spoken by a hell of a lot of people, especially in Europe where virtually ever Muslim regardless of race or nationality learns it.I thought I'd read somewhere that the lyrics were in Somali. It does make more sense if it's in Arabic...

jeffbax

10-19-2008, 07:27 PM

In light of my free release-day shipping from Amazon prime... when the game wasn't even shipping until the 21st...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v125/jeffbax/evilavatar/da207650.png

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v125/jeffbax/evilavatar/c5a51261.png

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v125/jeffbax/evilavatar/a9633078.png

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v125/jeffbax/evilavatar/53822bd7.png

=

http://www.terminally-incoherent.com/img/facepalm.jpeg

darkbase

10-20-2008, 12:26 AM

One more week guys, we can make it. HOLD STEADY, NOW!

BLeeP

10-20-2008, 12:32 AM

One more week guys, we can make it. HOLD STEADY, NOW!

Man, this game is so much fun. You guys have no idea what you are missing right now. I was on this awesome set of levels where there are skeletons and what not with awesome Spanish music.

/snarky :D

On a more serious note, it's sad the song they are pulling is what it is. It's actually a pretty awesome song.

Also, jeffbax, if you are ever going to order through Gamestop again and choose USA Value, use the coupon code "SAVER". It's free value shipping.

astranoir

10-20-2008, 12:34 AM

Man, this game is so much fun. You guys have no idea what you are missing right now. I was on this awesome set of levels where there are skeletons and what not with awesome Spanish music.

I think I played that one when I played the beta. If it's the same one, it is incredible :)

BLeeP

10-20-2008, 12:35 AM

I think I played that one when I played the beta. If it's the same one, it is incredible :)

It's my favorite world, so far. We shall see, though, as I have these Samurai Islands coming up next. I hope for Japanese-ie goodness!

KingGorilla

10-20-2008, 05:54 AM

One more week guys, we can make it. HOLD STEADY, NOW!

I'm crackin up man. At least if say an MMO or Shooter gets a push back, they tend to extend the open beta period. But the abruptness of this just caught everyone so off guard.

Spigot

10-20-2008, 07:03 AM

I'm crackin up man. At least if say an MMO or Shooter gets a push back, they tend to extend the open beta period. But the abruptness of this just caught everyone so off guard.What they really should do is just open up the beta and let EVERYONE play with it for the next week or so. That would alleviate a lot of annoyance from people who think this is a lame move and also give those of us who never got a chance to try the beta a little taste of what we'll get in a week.

Telefrog

10-20-2008, 08:38 AM

Iron Past: I agree with you about the song. I wondered if it caused any uproar before, especially since it was by a Grammy winning artist. I Googled and Wiki'd it, to no avail. Maybe the song itself never reached a large audience before and went unnoticed? A Grammy, unfortunately, doesn't always mean attention to all of one's music.

Okay, I spoke to a couple of friends of mine this weekend that happen to be Muslim and arabic speaking. (Put me on the watch lists now. :D) They told me that the song itself isn't disrespectful. Singing in praise of God/Allah/Muhammed, quoting from the Q'uran, etc is not inherently wrong. When the point of the song is veneration, then it's totally acceptable. Much like Christian gospel recordings, there is a lot of Muslim music that pays homage to their religion.

The offense comes from using that song (and the quotes) in a commercial product that has no relation to the book. If it's just being used to "flavor" the level of a game, then it's use is disrespectful.

Schnoogs

10-20-2008, 09:09 AM

We wouldn't want to offend the religion of peace now would we.

Spigot

10-20-2008, 11:26 AM

The offense comes from using that song (and the quotes) in a commercial product that has no relation to the book. If it's just being used to "flavor" the level of a game, then it's use is disrespectful.Well, I can handle that explanation. I don't necessarily agree that Sony should have pulled everything, etc. etc., but I can at least see why using it in this manner could be taken as offensive.

Too bad they couldn't put an instrumental version of the song in...

BLeeP

10-20-2008, 11:33 AM

What they really should do is just open up the beta and let EVERYONE play with it for the next week or so. That would alleviate a lot of annoyance from people who think this is a lame move and also give those of us who never got a chance to try the beta a little taste of what we'll get in a week.

The servers aren't up at all right now, sadly. You can't connect online to do anything, such as upload high scores, upload levels and certainly not download anything. I can't even redeem my costume codes.

As for putting an instrumental version of the track in, the vocals are really what makes it a great song, IMO.

H.Bogard

10-20-2008, 12:30 PM

Spigot

10-20-2008, 12:33 PM

The servers aren't up at all right now, sadly. You can't connect online to do anything, such as upload high scores, upload levels and certainly not download anything. I can't even redeem my costume codes.
Bah. Hell, I'd be happy to just play around with the tutorials and make a few levels to play on my local machine. Something to help soothe the pain of not getting it for another week.

Gorvi

10-20-2008, 01:02 PM

MM's comments (http://www.mediamolecule.com/2008/10/20/new-release-dates/) about re-opening the beta:
Lots of people have asked us to switch on the beta again and we looked into it at length, but now that the delay to the game is only a week, it just wasn’t technically possible to get new keys out, bring back the servers, and so on. Besides, we’ve working on some cooler ways of connecting with you lot directly, that can include those who weren’t able to get beta keys.

agentgray

10-20-2008, 01:05 PM

MM's comments (http://www.mediamolecule.com/2008/10/20/new-release-dates/) about re-opening the beta:

Oh, now that's interesting. Adding new things...Hmm. How convenient there was a recall.

:D

Helix_Fire

10-23-2008, 12:01 PM

Not to oversimplify it...but a lot of it has to do with the fact that if you put material objectionable to say, Christians, in something, everyone doesn't immediately worry that they'll try to kill you. It doesn't help that many radical Islamic devotees respond to these things by stating "Get rid of it...or we'll kill you."

The whole situation makes me sick to my stomach.

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Okay dude, im a muslim, but i'm not out there killin ppl. SO CHILL THE F@#K OUT. Also, don't say christians don't do shit like this either. ALL RELIGEONS HAVE THEIR IDIOTS!!!! I bet my entire life, that if i took a giant metal cross and went to a church and melted it, and turned it into a dildo, they would be offended!!!!!!!!!!!

LongStepMantis

10-23-2008, 12:15 PM

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Okay dude, im a muslim, but i'm not out there killin ppl. SO CHILL THE F@#K OUT. Also, don't say christians don't do shit like this either. ALL RELIGEONS HAVE THEIR IDIOTS!!!! I bet my entire life, that if i took a giant metal cross and went to a church and melted it, and turned it into a dildo, they would be offended!!!!!!!!!!!

So you're a radical Muslim? Because I clearly stated I wasn't talking about all Muslims. And you should probably take your own advice since you're the one who obviously needs to calm the fuck down. Good job on promoting the stereotype of the "angry Muslim" while you're at it.

If my comment pissed you off so much, you'd be better off not reading the rest of the the thread then.