Church of Scientology convicted of fraud in France

[Squidbot]

Good news everyone! (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article6892075.ece)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v230/linvuiet/farnsworth11hj.jpg

[Suave Peanut]

Well I never thought I'd say this, but...

+1 to France

[Squidbot]

I doubt it will stick. They will likely take it higher and have it overturned, but damn if I'm not giggling like a child right now.

It also gives me an excuse to repost this old favourite
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v230/linvuiet/Animated/what_they_believe01.gif

[roboninja]

Tom Cruise wil boycott France! In related news, I am moving to France.

[TheEpicOfTyler]

I don't understand how they continue to exist. I wonder if the other modern mainstream religions were looked down with such disdain in their early formations. Scientology is a batshit crazy, dangerous cult.

[Generation ABXY]

Is it really as batshit crazy as it sounds? I always assumed half of what I heard was fake - like the end result of a worldwide of telephone...

[roboninja]

Is it really as batshit crazy as it sounds? I always assumed half of what I heard was fake - like the end result of a worldwide of telephone...

I cannot imagine you hearing things much stranger than the truth. So I am going to go ahead and assume that what you heard was, in fact, correct.

[Ink Asylum]

As amusing as Scientology's mythology is, I think that if you tried to explain the mythology behind any major religion to someone who had absolutely no exposure to religion or spirituality it would sound similarly ridiculous.

[LongStepMantis]

As amusing as Scientology's mythology is, I think that if you tried to explain the mythology behind any major religion to someone who had absolutely no exposure to religion or spirituality it would sound similarly ridiculous.

I love explaining the Bible stories to people with little-to-no christian experiences. They look at you like you're retarded...I don't blame them.

[roboninja]

As amusing as Scientology's mythology is, I think that if you tried to explain the mythology behind any major religion to someone who had absolutely no exposure to religion or spirituality it would sound similarly ridiculous.

Oh, I agree, I just did not want to turn this anti-Scientology thread into a general anti-religion thread. ;)

[National Kato]

Scientology is merely one of the 'easy targets' of religion.

[Ultima Thulian]

Of course it's an easy target. It's fraud.

[KamaItachi]

As amusing as Scientology's mythology is, I think that if you tried to explain the mythology behind any major religion to someone who had absolutely no exposure to religion or spirituality it would sound similarly ridiculous.

Scientology isn't a religion, it's a massive scam concocted to make money. These people are not wacky types with out-there beliefs, but terrible, terrible douchebags who deserve to be run out of any country they have the audacity to set up in.

France, c'est magnifique!

[Ink Asylum]

Scientology isn't a religion, it's a massive scam concocted to make money. These people are not wacky types with out-there beliefs, but terrible, terrible douchebags who deserve to be run out of any country they have the audacity to set up in.

I wonder what people would say about Scientology if it were to last another thousand years and accrue millions of followers, while its shady origins were mostly forgotten.

[KamaItachi]

I wonder what people would say about Scientology if it were to last another thousand years and accrue millions of followers, while its shady origins were mostly forgotten.

Since the only thing that pushes the wacky 'belief' of Scientology into the public view is the widespread mistrust of the church. I'd imagine it would be something close to the Eloi's impressions of the Morlock's air raid siren.

[Hawkzombie]

I wonder what people would say about Scientology if it were to last another thousand years and accrue millions of followers, while its shady origins were mostly forgotten.

I C Whut u did thar :p

[ShivaX]

I wonder what people would say about Scientology if it were to last another thousand years and accrue millions of followers, while its shady origins were mostly forgotten.

What are the good moral messages of Scientology and are they timeless?

Last I heard it was a terrible sci-fi story and about making money. I haven't heard about it trying to make the world or people better or anything, but I'll admit I'm not exactly looking it up too hard.

[Superman's Dead]

I love explaining the Bible stories to people with little-to-no christian experiences. They look at you like you're retarded...I don't blame them.

I dunno...because unless they're agnostic or atheist, they have batshit crazy stories of their own. Every religion is batshit crazy. Then again, so are plenty of things we can prove. That's why I love it all. =)

[Ink Asylum]

What are the good moral messages of Scientology and are they timeless?

Last I heard it was a terrible sci-fi story and about making money. I haven't heard about it trying to make the world or people better or anything, but I'll admit I'm not exactly looking it up too hard.

Again, you're comparing a religion that's less than a century old to one that's thousands of years old.

I'm by no means defending Scientology. I think it's a crock of shit. But then, I also think that organized religions in general are equally full of shit, they've just been around so long everyone accepts their ridiculous stories. No one religion has conclusive evidence that their crazy stories are true, so if you're going to laugh at Scientology by saying "This is what they actually believe," you should be laughing at every religion equally.

Even if one religion is "right," that means every other religion was made up at some point, probably by people looking to use it to control people and sucker them out of their money. We're just close enough to Scientology's origin that we can identify the bullshit artists.

[TheEpicOfTyler]

Oh, sky cake.

[ShivaX]

Again, you're comparing a religion that's less than a century old to one that's thousands of years old.

I'm by no means defending Scientology. I think it's a crock of shit. But then, I also think that organized religions in general are equally full of shit, they've just been around so long everyone accepts their ridiculous stories. No one religion has conclusive evidence that their crazy stories are true, so if you're going to laugh at Scientology by saying "This is what they actually believe," you should be laughing at every religion equally.

Even if one religion is "right," that means every other religion was made up at some point, probably by people looking to use it to control people and sucker them out of their money. We're just close enough to Scientology's origin that we can identify the bullshit artists.

I'm not talking about the stories, though I think Scientology's story is even less plausible than the rest of them. At least the rest of them have the excuse that they existed before the Age of Reason and theres a lot of mumbo jumbo trying to explain why the sun rises and sets and other stupid crap. Scientology can't play that angle since it came into existance in an age when we had unlocked the secret of the atom, not trying to understand what the moon is or what bacteria are.

Forget all that though. My point is that Christianity and most major religions have good morals. Most people pervert those morals to their own ends (which is why I'm also not a fan of organized religion), but the morals themselves if you look at them tend to be good ones. If you look at the words of Jesus they're pretty great words to live by (though few do, its just easier to "interpret" them to fit what you want them to say). I'm asking what Scientology's words of wisdom for the ages are. I mean the whole idea of treating others how you want to be treated and whatnot are good morals, but I don't get that impression from Scientology. Its message seems to be more along the lines of "sever your ties with loved ones and give us money." Basically your standard cult message.

[LongStepMantis]

I dunno...because unless they're agnostic or atheist, they have batshit crazy stories of their own. Every religion is batshit crazy. Then again, so are plenty of things we can prove. That's why I love it all. =)

I didn't mean to imply that Christianity ranks higher than other religions in the realm of extremely far-fetched stories. In my personal experiences, the vast majority of religious nuts I've met are some variation of Christian, so that one always seems to draw my attention.

One day far in the future, maybe someone will discover information buried deep within an ancient, forgotten archive about the flying spaghetti monster, and assume we worshiped him.

Which isn't far off, because everyone does...whether they know it or not. ;)

[Ink Asylum]

I'm not talking about the stories, though I think Scientology's story is even less plausible than the rest of them. At least the rest of them have the excuse that they existed before the Age of Reason and theres a lot of mumbo jumbo trying to explain why the sun rises and sets and other stupid crap. Scientology can't play that angle since it came into existance in an age when we had unlocked the secret of the atom, not trying to understand what the moon is or what bacteria are.

So it's better to believe in a story that has no bearing in science or reality as long as it's a really old story? The big mystery of why we're here, whether we have souls, if there's a greater being, are still unanswered, so why can't people come up with new guesses?

Forget all that though. My point is that Christianity and most major religions have good morals. Most people pervert those morals to their own ends (which is why I'm also not a fan of organized religion), but the morals themselves if you look at them tend to be good ones. If you look at the words of Jesus they're pretty great words to live by (though few do, its just easier to "interpret" them to fit what you want them to say). I'm asking what Scientology's words of wisdom for the ages are. I mean the whole idea of treating others how you want to be treated and whatnot are good morals, but I don't get that impression from Scientology. Its message seems to be more along the lines of "sever your ties with loved ones and give us money." Basically your standard cult message.

I went to watch the introductory Scientology movie at the local headquarters with some friends for fun and it was all about how to improve your life by banishing negative energy, or something like that. I'm sure more of their guiding morals are explained in the various literature, as well as spelled out when you more thoroughly embrace the religion. If you've ever wandered past their "Free Stress Test" stations you'll know that it's at least presented as something that you can use to help yourself. As for helping others, I'm pretty sure they teach that, too, if Tom Cruise's crazy rantings are any indication.

As for "sever your ties with loved ones and give us money," I can again use that label with many major religions. There are plenty that don't want their adherents to interact with non-believers, even loved ones, and plenty more that want, if not now than in recent centuries, to actively kill those that don't believe. As for "give us money," I don't think I need to point out how many other religions ask for that.

My point is that while you can attack Scientology for the negative things its church does (isolates people, sues people, takes lots of money from members), pretty much every religion has done, and many continue to do, similar or worse things, with no more justification than equally absurd stories. The only difference is that their stories were made up by people who didn't have science. That doesn't make them any more believable.

[Narradisall]

All organised religion is power mongering and control.

Scientlogy is just as batshit crazy and scary on a more easy to target scale.

I'm glad France have taken a stand against them. Personally if I had my way organised religion would all be banned. I hold nothing against people having their own beliefs but I see no reason why organised religion should have the influence and power if holds over everyones everyday lives.

[Generation ABXY]

I wouldn't ban organized religion per say (I mean, if people want to unite under a common belief, I really have no right to shut them down), but I probably wouldn't shed a tear if they lost that tax exempt status.

[Panthera]

I wouldn't ban organized religion per say (I mean, if people want to unite under a common belief, I really have no right to shut them down), but I probably wouldn't shed a tear if they lost that tax exempt status.

This, right here. Let people believe what they want, but give them no public money for it.

[Narradisall]

Yeah, maybe banning is a bit much. I would agree with Generations assement though. I see no reason why anyone should profit from people's beliefs.

[LongStepMantis]

Yeah, maybe banning is a bit much. I would agree with Generations assement though. I see no reason why anyone should profit from people's beliefs.

But profiting from people has been the hallmark of religion since...ever.
MeSSwKffj9o

[Narradisall]

Carlin is always a good laugh.

Hence my stance. I wonder how well organised religion would hold together if it no longer provided the levels of power and wealth it currently does.

I know a few people who's beliefs seem completely tied into how much power it gives them.

[Superman's Dead]

There are totally those people. There will always be those people. They will always look for power.

But there are some people whose religion fills something that nothing else could. The two needs are separate, they are different kinds of people, and they should be treated as such.

I have a pretty radical view of religion that is heavily ideologically based and I know that, so I won't get into it. But if you say 'down with power, because power corrupts' I think you eventually get anarchy. You don't just need faith for religion, you need it for any system of government that isn't a dictatorship.

And religion is still around because it has seen people through more hardship than anything else. Far enough back, religion was science and was the reason the species stayed alive. It was the root of government. Maybe it's just useful now as a 'museum piece', but any museum piece that at its core wants people to be nicer to each other (even if interpretations are many and varied), it's worth keeping around.

I mean, church youth groups still do so much charity work all over the world. They still travel to other countries to make the lives of other people better. That's not something there's a ton of among similar secular youth groups.

[Ultima Thulian]

Well, since we're getting into the lame, and rather pointless, discussion of "OMG guise, all religons r dum so scientology (moar like $cientology, amirite?) isnt any badder lol!!11!1one", I'll go ahead and squash it now.

It's not a matter of morality. Morality is subjective, who cares. Let me tell you something, it's a matter of entertainment. Now, a lot of Bible is dry and boring, but it has some good moments. Scientology does not. Ron Hubbard couldn't write worth dick, and that is just as true for his "religion" (yes, this is all fact and is not subjective like morality, I'm an expert on this).

The bible has a story involving two bears mauling and killing 42 children. This is epic win. Does Scientology have anything even remotely as entertaining as that? NO. Thus, Scientology is worse than Christianity.

[Sly Marbo]

The bible has a story involving two bears mauling and killing 42 children. This is epic win. Does Scientology have anything even remotely as entertaining as that? NO. Thus, Scientology is worse than Christianity.

How have I made it as long as I have without knowing this?

[Superman's Dead]

Actually, I also love Battlefield Earth. I think it's a pretty good story because it's all about willpower and determination, and how much humanity could accomplish if it worked together. The section of the book that's about building a new government when most of the population can't speak to each other is really cool; so is using Buddhist Monks as code talkers. =)

[Hawkzombie]

Has anyone mentioned that Scientology started as a bet Hubbard made to see if he could make a religion?

[Ultima Thulian]

How have I made it as long as I have without knowing this?

My friend, the Bible is loaded with lulzy goodness. Behold!

http://www.cracked.com/article_15699_9-most-badass-bible-verses.html

[Sly Marbo]

My friend, the Bible is loaded with lulzy goodness. Behold!

http://www.cracked.com/article_15699_9-most-badass-bible-verses.html

Thank you so much.

[CappinCanuck]

I doubt it will stick. They will likely take it higher and have it overturned, but damn if I'm not giggling like a child right now.


I doubt it, the legal systems are very different in Europe and specifically France. It's going to stay. The only way they'll get anywhere is to try appealing to the European Courts but even then, that would only do anything if their laws are contrary to EU regulations (which I strongly doubt).

[Saladin]

I wonder if the other modern mainstream religions were looked down with such disdain in their early formations.

I believe they were fed to lions...

[ShivaX]

I believe they were fed to lions...

And crucified.

[TheEpicOfTyler]

I believe they were fed to lions...

And crucified.

I realized right after I posted that, but I was too lazy to edit/delete. :p

[Widgetcraft]

I doubt it will stick. They will likely take it higher and have it overturned,

I wouldn't count on it, Europe has been much less kind to this militant cult compared to the way we've treated them here in the US, and it is outright banned in some countries.

[CappinCanuck]

I wouldn't count on it, Europe has been much less kind to this militant cult compared to the way we've treated them here in the US, and it is outright banned in some countries.

Exactly. I, and this is just an opinion, feel that US citizens let too much go in the name of freedom of speech. It has sort of evolved far beyond what it should. It certainly shouldn't include a bunch of chucklefucks like Tom Cruise and Greta Van Sustern, and the rest of the SciFi cult, swindling people out of their money. They seem to inject some morale judgment into their application of free speech, the right amount I think.

[ShivaX]

Exactly. I, and this is just an opinion, feel that US citizens let too much go in the name of freedom of speech. It has sort of evolved far beyond what it should. It certainly shouldn't include a bunch of chucklefucks like Tom Cruise and Greta Van Sustern, and the rest of the SciFi cult, swindling people out of their money. They seem to inject some morale judgment into their application of free speech, the right amount I think.

Er... its not a free speech issue though. Its a freedom of religion issue. Though I would argue that Scientology is about as much a religion as the Cult of the Flying Spaghetti Monster. The problem is that theres no real firm set of rules that determines what is and isn't a religion.

[Ultima Thulian]

There's little difference between cult and religion sadly, and it is hard to differentiate between the two.

Also, France is on their ass not cause of their religion, but because of fraud. That's a different ballgame.

[CappinCanuck]

Er... its not a free speech issue though. Its a freedom of religion issue. Though I would argue that Scientology is about as much a religion as the Cult of the Flying Spaghetti Monster. The problem is that theres no real firm set of rules that determines what is and isn't a religion.

No, there isn't, you're right. But that's more a symptom of our type of law. I'm not going to waste time googling for the specific statutes but France is civil law, so I am sure they do outline it. I'm not sure how strict their definition is, but likely moreso than our common law systems. Maybe someone from Quebec can chime in. If France has something, Quebec will or vice versa. Then again, the Canadian constitution, and its charters, would override so maybe that doesn't work :D.

There's little difference between cult and religion sadly, and it is hard to differentiate between the two.

Also, France is on their ass not cause of their religion, but because of fraud. That's a different ballgame.

Well, yes and no. I'm sure in a legal case though they would only refer to the fraud though since there's a direct link to a specific law or crime. It depends on what fraud they committed, did they not pay all their taxes or did they scam people into believing lies and pay to have them remedy it. (I could have phrased that better but I'm feeling lazy) The former is clearly simple fraud, as we all understand it or more simply economic crime, while the second is putting the religion on trial. The specific case here between scientology and France is that of religion. They claimed people were being scammed by the religion's assertions, that energy in our brains or whatever as bogus. So, yes, it was a case of religion and not economic crime. I'm happy about it though, I would have been disappointing if it was just because they didn't pay all their taxes or something of that nature.

[Wraith]

Scientology Charged With Slavery, Human Trafficking (http://yro.slashdot.org/story/09/12/01/2045227/Scientology-Charged-With-Slavery-Human-Trafficking) (Slashdot)"A formal complaint was filed in California (http://www.scribd.com/doc/23175190/Complaint-filed112509) (caged PDF) last week by John Lindstein naming David Miscavige (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Miscavige) and the Church of Scientology International as defendants. Lindstein claims that for sixteen years (from age 8) he was forced to work as a slave (http://www.courthousenews.com/2009/12/01/Man_Says_Scientologists_Enslaved_Him_as_Boy.htm) at Gold Base, a secret CoS site run by Golden Era Productions with 'razor wire, security guard patrols, surveillance posts, and three roll calls each day.' The pay was $50 a week. The allegations (http://infinitecomplacency.blogspot.com/2009/11/16-john-lindsteins-lawsuit.html) include 'Violations of wage and hour laws as well as unfair/illegal business practices actionable under California B&P 17200 Et. Seq.' and a complaint under the 13th Amendment of the US Constitution, which abolished slavery. Members of the group Anonymous praised the summons (http://forums.whyweprotest.net/123-leaks-legal/david-miscavige-sued-summons-issued-11-25-09-a-57318/)."

[Ancalagon]

I hope this sticks, and he's able to prove his claim. We need that cult banned.

[Dorkandproudofit]

I think--and this is not an exaggeration, nor is it a joke--that a militia should forcefully liberate the hell out of that camp. No human deserves the shit that goes on in there.

As for the douchebags that run it, gun 'em down.

[Widgetcraft]

I think--and this is not an exaggeration, nor is it a joke--that a militia should forcefully liberate the hell out of that camp. No human deserves the shit that goes on in there.

As for the douchebags that run it, gun 'em down.

People really underestimate how dangerous the "Church of Scientology" is. You make it sound as if they aren't heavily armed, with fortified bunkers, and plans for world domination. I know that sounds corny, but that is the reality of the situation.

[LongStepMantis]

People really underestimate how dangerous the "Church of Scientology" is. You make it sound as if they aren't heavily armed, with fortified bunkers, and plans for world domination. I know that sounds corny, but that is the reality of the situation.

This. You know all those cheesy movies with the "Evil Corp" style army of brainwashed drones, politicians in their pockets, and want to launch a new world order? You've met them already.

Think about it...why do they pursue celebrities so feverishly to join them? Take note of how many sad sacks in our country are falling over themselves at the latest celebrity gossip. They know that these same celebrities are the key to convincing morons across the land to join as well. They're figureheads, chosen for a reason.

[Serapth]

I believe they were fed to lions...

Lions have to eat too you know...

[alienmastermind]

I wonder what people would say about Scientology if it were to last another thousand years and accrue millions of followers, while its shady origins were mostly forgotten.

They would be aliens, and say 'Jesus, Humans were dumb. No wonder they invented a bomb that would kill themselves a million times over and then made a million of those bombs.'

[alienmastermind]

Also...check this.

http://www.xenu.net/

I'd check out what the place is all about. They used to have a foothold in Clearwater, Florida politics. Now, they are the majority in Clearwater, regardless of party.