Robert Bowling answers about Modern Warfare 2 [Archive]

Voodoo

10-23-2009, 08:43 AM

I recently broke news on a PC community member’s podcast that Modern Warfare 2 would be introducing a completely new backend infastructure called IWNET that would allow matchmaking for multiplayer games on PC. The news, by default, means no more browsing through a Server List for a server with the settings / ping you want among other things, and sent shockwaves through the hardcore PC community, leading to many more questions than answers as to ‘HOW’ this would work, and if it would really be better for the PC community as a whole.

Questions, assumptions, and speculation I intend to dispel.

Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2 is actually the biggest investment Infinity Ward has ever made into the PC version of our games. It’s also the most feature-rich PC version we’ve ever made. IWNET takes the benefits of dedicated servers and allows them to be utilized and accessed by every player, out of the box, while removing the barrier to entry for players unaware of how to maintain a server on their own.

How does it do this (http://www.fourzerotwo.com/?p=745)?
The post is a very good read and puts a bit of insight as to why they decided to end dedicated servers with this new edition. Please read through the entire post and let us know what you think. It seems to me to be a fair explanation of what's going on and why but I'd definitely like to hear your opinion after you've read through what he has answered...

bapenguin

10-23-2009, 08:47 AM

roboninja

10-23-2009, 09:26 AM

Honestly, I'm a fan of "matchmaking" style multiplayer now. While it's great to hop onto your favorite server, matchmaking can be done in a similar manner by joining friends.

Each method has their ups and downs though.

Your friends are not always online when you want to play. A dedicated server is always there. Matchmaking means less personal choice, which is never a good thing, in my mind.

Hotcod

10-23-2009, 10:21 AM

I'm sorry but there is not a single reason listed why there still can't be dedicated servers... nothing they are doing preclude's ALSO having a server list for those who want it. Which brings us back the fact they want total control of the online game... end of story.

Funny thing is if they had kept dedicated servers as an option they'd likely be lorded for the rest of the features... talk about PR screw up

Crowe

10-23-2009, 10:43 AM

I love playing my XBOX, I've taken Halo online along with a few other games over the past few years. But is doesn't compare to the experience I get on PC, an experience I attribute to dedicated servers. Being able to play on the same server over and over creates a community and its something I enjoy, the funny conversations, the banter, you can benchmark yourself against players, and you even get too know how they play after a while.

Let's be honest, if you build a rig, or purchased a PC capable of running MW2, it's not hard to learn about ping and servers in general. Gamers have been doing it for well over a decade and learning is simple.

The biggest benefit of using IWnet by far is the fact that you don’t have to worry about joining a server full of aim-bots, wallhacks, or cheaters. Or relying on the server admin of the server to constantly be monitoring, banning, and policing it. Modern Warfare 2 on PC allows us to control the quality of the game much more than ever before as well as utilizing the VAC (Valve-Anti-Cheat) system to keep games clean of hackers and cheaters.

BULLSHIT. I'll believe this when I see it, and unless VAC has vastly improved there will be hacks that go undetected every single day. Someone can point it out to me if I'm wrong but I equate this to DRM and Piracy...you can only slow it down.

I don't see how this is step up. Like Hotcod said, has they kept the dedicated servers and the custom map/mod support I would be praising them. Is there really a casual PC market that would benefit from matchmaking....server browsing doesn't take long too pick up.

Telefrog

10-23-2009, 10:52 AM

Crowe

10-23-2009, 10:58 AM

Another thing about the friends aspect. All versions are being tied through Steam correct? meaning that even without IWNET, Shift-Tab, Right Click, Join Game would have you in your friends server just like that?

There's one thing it does do that a lot easier, and that is setting up a match in which you have a large group of friends easily setting up a game where they are all on same side.

Oh and I totally forgot about the god damn latency factor. What the hell is going to happen with p2p and latency. Are they going to make it equally as stable as a dedicated server?

violent

10-23-2009, 11:13 AM

Dedicated servers > Matchmaking

Always.

Food Nipple

10-23-2009, 11:21 AM

So they're basically running their own xbox live clone?

I don't see how this addresses any of the complaints people had. PC players seem pretty clear about the fact that they don't want their multiplayer features consolized.

violent

10-23-2009, 11:23 AM

Food Nipple

10-23-2009, 11:23 AM

Dedicated servers > Matchmaking

Always.

If anyone thinks matchmaking on a PC is a good idea, just look at Left 4 Dead.

violent

10-23-2009, 11:27 AM

If anyone thinks matchmaking on a PC is a good idea, just look at Left 4 Dead.

Excellent point. L4D perfectly illustrates what a huge step down matchmaking is.

Ravenlock

10-23-2009, 11:29 AM

I agree with most of the others here. Matchmaking is really a terrific feature, but it does not take the place of dedicated servers.

We all know the true reason for the changeover. He said it in the original interview. It's about control and money.

This from me as well. The "spin" here is somewhat reasonable, but that's what it is, and the benefits they're arguably introducing here don't mitigate - and in fact have very little to do with - the things they're taking away.

If it wasn't about control and money, there would be no reason that IWNet and dedicated servers couldn't both exist on the presumption that most players would obviously choose to use this magical, new, better way, while the "hardcore" could keep their dedicated servers. But it is, so both options can't be allowed to coexist.

EDIT: On the other hand, I believe this statement is probably true: "Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2 [I]is actually the biggest investment Infinity Ward has ever made into the PC version of our games." Indeed, IWNet can't have been cheap to design or build when a workable (but less profitable) option was already around. They're banking hard on this both reducing piracy and motivating people to buy post-launch content. If the investment fails, as several of us have already mentioned, a console-only franchise seems possible.

crazyD

10-23-2009, 11:44 AM

If anyone thinks matchmaking on a PC is a good idea, just look at Left 4 Dead.

I dunno, it kind of works for L4D. It's not like you are running huge 32 player servers or anything, and they do still allow for dedicated servers. I'd say that's an example of a good implementation of match making.

violent

10-23-2009, 11:48 AM

I dunno, it kind of works for L4D. It's not like you are running huge 32 player servers or anything, and they do still allow for dedicated servers. I'd say that's an example of a good implementation of match making.

When you've played L4D as long as us, you'd understand just how bad it really is. If you don't know how to search key or even know of a decent server to play on, the success of the game will be a coin toss.

BlackScarab

10-23-2009, 12:42 PM

L4D has matchmaking but it also supports dedicated servers. If IW did that, this wouldn't be a problem.

Food Nipple

10-23-2009, 12:57 PM

I dunno, it kind of works for L4D. It's not like you are running huge 32 player servers or anything, and they do still allow for dedicated servers. I'd say that's an example of a good implementation of match making.

It is a terrible implementation of matchmaking.

First, you have almost no control over the settings of the server you land on. You could hit the "play game" button three times with the default settings and get three totally different games.

One might be set up with an 8v8 mod, one might have the damage cranked up beyond the default values, and the third has all kinds of silly mods like extra gore, and you can revive yourself when you're on the ground if you have a set of pills. I've seen them all.

The second problem is the team stacking. If we have a group of four people, we should be able to find another group of four people to play against.

And finally, the setup they have now stifles community maps.

Basically, it's the worst of both worlds.

bapenguin

10-23-2009, 01:31 PM

If anyone thinks matchmaking on a PC is a good idea, just look at Left 4 Dead.

What? it works perfectly on the PC version. I love being able to jump into a survival match with one button.

Perhaps XBL has me spoiled, but I prefer matchmaking.

If I want to join friends or the group there's the Steam community features to do that. That's my dedicated server right there.

violent

10-23-2009, 01:57 PM

What? it works perfectly on the PC version. I love being able to jump into a survival match with one button.

Perhaps XBL has me spoiled, but I prefer matchmaking.

If I want to join friends or the group there's the Steam community features to do that. That's my dedicated server right there.

It does not work perfectly on the PC version. Far from it. If you are a regular player, you'd know this is news as old as the day the game was released.

I do believe that matchmaking is a great solution. If you don't have the option of dedicated servers, that is. Dedicated servers let you control your games and not leave anything to chance. It also let's you cater your gaming to better suit your preferences. All the meanwhile having the option to invite friends, allow strangers, anything. Again, matchmaking is great in it's own respect. Compared to dedicated servers though? Doesn't stand a chance.

bapenguin

10-23-2009, 02:03 PM

Compared to dedicated servers though? Doesn't stand a chance.

I see where you are coming from -but for me personally - matchmaking is fine. I've been playing L4D on PC since the pre-release demo, though I tend to avoid versus.

But it also depends on the perspective.

If someone doesn't know a server, doesn't have a community, and brings up a server browser with 500 entries in it, it could be daunting where to begin. Matchmaking fills that void.

I don't think you can say one is better than the other, because they both of their shortcomings.

Ravenlock

10-23-2009, 02:22 PM

Perhaps you can't say one is better than the other (though obviously some folks believe you can), but can you justify removing the one to include the other, when there's no technical reason they couldn't both exist? There may be people whose preferences are best met by matchmaking, but there are also clearly people whose preferences are not met at all by it.

Including matchmaking, in my opinion, is great. But it doesn't necessitate removing dedicated servers, and I don't see a way to justify that decision that doesn't pretty much solely involve their pocketbooks. Mr. Bowling certainly didn't manage to give one in the blog post linked in the TLP, though he tried hard to make it sound like he was.

iHap

10-23-2009, 02:23 PM

Last night perfectly relays how fucked up the L4D matchmaking system is. Ghostbear, Shrinn, Wackman3000(He then left) and brought on UWCrash, because after 6 or so servers with either stupid mods, or shitty pings it doesn't work. We gave into all 4 of us having 200-300ping. I would rather have a filter option, or a server list than a horrible system that doesn't work these days.

JayK47

10-23-2009, 02:27 PM

So if this matchmaking is so great, does it match up all asshats onto one server and all serious players, such as myself, onto another server? Doubt it. That is my biggest problem with so called match making. It is worse that a blind date. I essentially get tossed onto a server with random idiots and 2 minutes later I log off and never go back. So if matchmaking was intended to keep me from playing online, mission accomplished.

Hotcod

10-23-2009, 02:30 PM

Which is why having both is useful and cool and everyone is happy with no ill effects except the fact that it has to be in some way an open system which is of course abhorrent to any one wanting to make more money from map packs!

Jackel

10-23-2009, 02:34 PM

As someone who still plays L4D on nearly a daily basis. I have to agree with the sentiment that matchmaking is broken. With no abilities to filter, you are just as likely to find a lobby leader from Australia hosting on his own connection, as you are to find a lobby leader taking you to his private server (since you have no way of knowing if he is using a server key) where mods have completely changed the game.

Matchmaking as an ideal isn't a bad thing, and when implemented in correlation with dedicated servers works wonders.

I really hope L4D2 brings the dedicated server back and allows a quick play option for matchmaking along with a 4 vs 4 group option.

Either way IW's decision to axe dedicated servers is a poor one. At least L4D had the server browser still available in the backend.

violent

10-23-2009, 02:51 PM

I see where you are coming from -but for me personally - matchmaking is fine. I've been playing L4D on PC since the pre-release demo, though I tend to avoid versus.

But it also depends on the perspective.

If someone doesn't know a server, doesn't have a community, and brings up a server browser with 500 entries in it, it could be daunting where to begin. Matchmaking fills that void.

I don't think you can say one is better than the other, because they both of their shortcomings.

The real question is why don't you play with us more often.

That said, I understand what you're saying but the individual who has no friends or community will run into similar issue. The fact is that the two offer two separate things and it will come down personal preference. The one thing that I will say matchmaking offers that dedicated servers don't is the grouping of somewhat equally skilled players. Since I've been primarily a PC gamer for over 2 decades now (christ!), one thing I've always been accustomed to is joining a game where people are much better than I and I'm forced to get better. It's always been one of the funner aspects of multiplayer gaming for me.

bapenguin

10-23-2009, 04:14 PM

The real question is why don't you play with us more often.

That said, I understand what you're saying but the individual who has no friends or community will run into similar issue. The fact is that the two offer two separate things and it will come down personal preference. The one thing that I will say matchmaking offers that dedicated servers don't is the grouping of somewhat equally skilled players. Since I've been primarily a PC gamer for over 2 decades now (christ!), one thing I've always been accustomed to is joining a game where people are much better than I and I'm forced to get better. It's always been one of the funner aspects of multiplayer gaming for me.

I just don't care for the versus mode, which is what I've seen most people playing when I play. Which is exactly why I like using the matchmaking to find survival games.

That being said, that is the end result - it's personal preference. Obviously it's PR speak from Infinity Ward's standpoint to try to defend the removal of dedicated servers. There's no reason to CUT features out of a game when they simply work.

violent

10-23-2009, 04:30 PM

I just don't care for the versus mode, which is what I've seen most people playing when I play. Which is exactly why I like using the matchmaking to find survival games.

That being said, that is the end result - it's personal preference. Obviously it's PR speak from Infinity Ward's standpoint to try to defend the removal of dedicated servers. There's no reason to CUT features out of a game when they simply work.

I hear ya and I agree. Also, we've been loyal to L4D for quite some time now and I'll tell you, it happens in phases. Versus and campaign flip often. Survival is what we rarely touch (which I'd like to rectify). When you get the chance or are in the mood for some campaign, let me know. We'll get a group and hoof it on expert. Most fun I've ever had in that game.

boratika

10-24-2009, 11:18 AM

If anyone thinks matchmaking on a PC is a good idea, just look at Left 4 Dead.

You, know, I had no idea it was as bad as you guys described...but that's because I never really played much of the game. And that's because the matchmaking turned me off the game and I just went back to TF2. Even though there is obvious benefits to matchmaking over server browsing in a game with only 4 people.

So, yeah, personal preference, but when news broke that dedicated servers (and browsers) were out, it translated to me as "I'm not ever playing that game online"

Best part? Even the pricepoint reflects this fact.

You think you've got it priced bad?

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f66/boratika/CoDMWTF2.png

That's right, Activision are telling me and my countymen their game is worth as much as LFD2 and Borderlands combined. Guess I'm not playing the game offline either.

Also feel free to note how EA is among the good guys.

Shjinta

10-24-2009, 11:38 AM

The big thing for me on PC with COD 4 was the massive increase in players. Like the 50+ person servers. Does Xbox live still only do 8 v 8? That's way too small and boring for me. Also like everyone said. I liked having a few favorite servers I could always lurk on. Oh well I refuse to buy this game regardless. I'd rather see Infinity Ward burn for this.

H.Bogard

10-26-2009, 12:01 AM

I just don't care for the versus mode, which is what I've seen most people playing when I play. Which is exactly why I like using the matchmaking to find survival games.

That being said, that is the end result - it's personal preference. Obviously it's PR speak from Infinity Ward's standpoint to try to defend the removal of dedicated servers. There's no reason to CUT features out of a game when they simply work.

I don't think L4D's survival mode is a valid comparison here. In COD people expect to have fast paced 32 player matches. In L4D, you're a group of 4 hanging around shooting AI controlled zombies. See where I'm going with this? You take 32 computers with varying specs and frame rates, as well as connection capabilities and you've suddenly gotten yourself into a peer-to-peer clusterfuck that just WILL not work. Go read Eurogamer's review of Operation Flashpoint's PC version... they pulled off the same kind of shit and it just did NOT work.

Also:

http://cache.gawker.com/assets/images/kotaku/2009/10/199.jpg

Voodoo

10-26-2009, 04:54 AM

For the benefit of those that don't know - there is a server browser in Left 2 Dead. It isn't enabled by default, you've got to go into Options, Mouse/Keyboard and then enable Allow Developer Console. Once that is done, go back out to the main menu, press ~ and then type the command 'openserverbrowser'.

RandoM51

10-26-2009, 06:32 AM

What? it works perfectly on the PC version. I love being able to jump into a survival match with one button.

Perhaps XBL has me spoiled, but I prefer matchmaking.

It works perfectly connecting you to a game, it doesn't work perfectly connecting you to a good game. Big difference there.

Live isn't any better when it comes to P2P. I wouldn't say you are spoiled so much as I'd say you are brainwashed. :) Live! is hands down the best peer2peer there is, but it is still peer2peer(Live does dedicated too, just not very often).

Simply stated, there isn't matchmaking code on any platform that can do a better job of picking a good game than a human with a server list can. It takes all of 5 minutes to figure out the basics of a server browser, if that. It isn't rocket science. I spend more time getting used to the controls of a new game than I ever have figuring out server browsers.

That being said, that is the end result - it's personal preference.
Which somebody prefers is a personal preference, which does a better job putting you into a game with a good ping, on the map you want, with the game options you want is obvious. :)

kyrieee

10-26-2009, 02:50 PM

If we didn't have dedicated servers for online shooters I'm pretty sure I would never have played them as much as I have. Many of the people I've played a lot with over the years are people I used to play on the same public server with and got to know. That's how a lot of clans are formed.

Nobody plays shooters on listen servers because dedicated servers are so much better. People don't have to pay for their own servers but yet they choose to, that alone should say something about the difference between p2p and deddis.

JayK47

10-26-2009, 04:15 PM

You take 32 computers with varying specs and frame rates, as well as connection capabilities and you've suddenly gotten yourself into a peer-to-peer clusterfuck that just WILL not work. Go read Eurogamer's review of Operation Flashpoint's PC version... they pulled off the same kind of shit and it just did NOT work.

So is this the way things are going to be from now on? No more dedicated servers? I was not aware that OFP was P2P. Honestly I am more into single player or coop for that series, but I know a lot of people will be disappointed, like for MW2. Since MW2 is damn near online multiplayer only, in my mind, it needs to have dedicated server support. Without it, it is just a 4 hours single player game. Worth a rental. I hate to be a doomsayer, but news like this paints a bleak future for gaming.

c0m3d14n

10-27-2009, 06:02 AM

while removing the barrier to entry for players unaware of how to maintain a server on their own.

what kind of bogus reason is that? how many users have a desire to host their own server this way?
if you dont host a dedicated server where you have really control over it what is the reward of being able to say: "wheee i'm the host of this game"?

amazon.co.uk has removed 180+ 1 star reviews from cod:mw2 while leaving the option to review other unreleased games intact
i guess activision felt some backlash and the need to put pressure on amazon
needless to say that infuriated people some more and now they are venting in the discussion section ;)
i am also glad to see cod relatively low in the top sellers list on steam