Torchlight DRM

[Telefrog]

So, seriously, what's up?

From an official thread (http://forums.runicgames.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=687):

We're probably just going to throw a bunch of unlocks on there - 10 or more. We don't really want it to be a hassle, and we'll probably use the absolute minimum protection possible for our own distributed versions. The reason for this is really that we want to do an unlock demo because, to be frank, they just sell better. If someone doesn't have to download the game, and then download it AGAIN if they want to buy that, it's just a better experience.

So my preference is to make it very very light DRM with a large-but-limited number of unlocks. If you buy the game, I don't care if you install it on every PC in your house.

To sum up (in case you don't want to dig through the forums) here's the skinny on Torchlight DRM:

1. The version you buy directly from Runic/Perfect World will have limited activations. "10 or more." Nothing specific about the number, which is a bit troubling. Regardless of what Mr. Baldree thinks, 10 activations is still an infinite number less than I prefer in my software.

2. The boxed version won't have limited online activations, but will have DRM of some kind. Most likely disc-required.

3. Steam and other DD services may or may not have limited activations. No one at Runic has officially answered that question yet.

So, seriously... What the Hell is up? :confused:

[Telefrog]

Just in from Travis Baldree:

FYI, Steam will use Steam DRM, not something else, so it'll be unlimited install Steam stuff.

We make a little more from our own site, but Steam has a lot of conveniences we can't provide, so I'm not gonna begrudge anybody getting it from there.


Better. Thank God I went with Steam.

[Grifter]

Who cares? At this point does it really matter? The install limitation will be removed within the year like every other game and if you use yours all up it's because you're either sharing the game with friends or not smart enough to install the game properly.

The game itself will be cracked within 48hours so even if you manage to screw up 10+ installs you'll still have a way out.

With how much "gamers" whine, cry and bitch about every little thing I don't know why developers continue to make games for such a potentially obnoxious group of people.

[Brady]

I don't think any of it really matters. Essentially they're just trying to wrap it in some Steam-like DRM. Something really small that wont really restrict anyone that basically just tries to guilt you into not giving it to everyone you know.

This game is how the developers pay for groceries and some people just need a little reminder.

[Ghostbear]

Not really seeing the big deal here.

[Nura]

Meh, they've done enough good things for the game, that i can let this one slide.

[mightbe]

Hey look, the sky is falling!

I'm sure you'll be able to get past the number of activations by calling tech support if you have registered the software with Runic.

If not it will cost you another 20$. And if you've put it on ten different installs/systems, maybe you should pick up another copy to support a developer you like so much!

Also, buying it from Steam seems to be the way to go for someone as... installing as you?

[mightbe]

I don't think any of it really matters. Essentially they're just trying to wrap it in some Steam-like DRM. Something really small that wont really restrict anyone that basically just tries to guilt you into not giving it to everyone you know.

This game is how the developers pay for groceries and some people just need a little reminder.

And these folks could use some grocery money after flagship did them dirty. They've made this game in 10 months so far. Lets reward their hard work by paying for the game.

I know I'm buying copies of this for friends for Christmas as it will run on anything and through steam you can put it on all of your computers without a hassle.

[Savok]

Thank fuck Steam's is unmolested.

It is rather light though, an activation limit set at something like 10 is pretty damn hefty and has very minimal impact on the end user, which is the main reason DRM is so hated.

[Crowe]

Yeah this is indeed pretty light. Definitely not something worth worrying about, the number of people who go over 10 will be very minimal and it will be removed rather fast. I grab a crack for all my games, saves me finding disks.

[Telefrog]

I'm not complaining. I'm getting the Steam version, so I obviously don't care about the activation limit. For those getting the version directly from Runic or wherever else (since it's a demo-to-full-game registration) it can be a concern.

I know that I personally have installed my copy of Fate on at least six platforms since 2005. That would leave me four more activations with this setup, and that's an issue for someone like me that regularly digs old PC games out of his collection to replay them.

[CappinCanuck]

Well, now that we know Steam won't have it, just don't buy from them directly and it's all groovy standard DRM. I'll be buying and downloading a cracked version as I do with any DRMed singleplayer game.

[Voodoo]

FYI - The 2 contest copies we are giving out will be Steam based. Also, moving this to news...

[Hawkzombie]

I've done several installs of games over the years on several systems. If we add em up, I've had three computers with 3 full formats each over the past 5 years. Mainly because 2 sucked.

Still, 10 activations is a non-invasive and rather light DRM. Even the average consumer won't re-format their computer (once, if any) on a regular basis (every 1-2 years or so) or replace their computer with the same frequency. So, I'm gonna jump on the 'don't see a problem here' bandwagon. Especially since most people can, I'd imagine, simply call and extend their activations if need be, it's not 3 like Spore originally had, and the fact most people will find a crack for it withing a few days of release if they're really -that- concerned :p

[Telefrog]

Here's my concern with limited activations. (And yes, I agree that "10 or more" acivations is not particularly worrisome.) How many games do I now own that have limited activations? I think at least 10 or so. Let's fast forward a few years. How many will I have then? Am I really going to keep track of each activation?

The response is always, "Hey, just call CS and get another activation when it comes up!" which is fine until it happens with every other legacy game I try to reinstall. As I said before, I reinstall older PC games quite often. That's an issue to me.

I don't have DVDs that play for a limited amount of times.

[Hawkzombie]

And honestly, if I ever have a problem installing ANY game I own, I crack it. It's a hassle, and it's the ultimate problem with -ANY- DRM, but there ya go. DRM doesn't lessen piracy anymore than putting those little magnetic strips into things in a store lessens shoplifting. (Stupid analogy, but you get the drift). They almost always hurt the legitimate consumer in the end, and the pirates always find a way to either crack it or steal it without getting caught or going through hoops.

[hunterx280]

Here's my concern with limited activations. (And yes, I agree that "10 or more" acivations is not particularly worrisome.) How many games do I now own that have limited activations? I think at least 10 or so. Let's fast forward a few years. How many will I have then? Am I really going to keep track of each activation?

The response is always, "Hey, just call CS and get another activation when it comes up!" which is fine until it happens with every other legacy game I try to reinstall. As I said before, I reinstall older PC games quite often. That's an issue to me.

I don't have DVDs that play for a limited amount of times.

It seems to me that if you are getting it on Steam, no big deal. If this was an EA game, people would be up in arms yelling and screaming boycott. I'm all for supporting small developers and I understand their need to protect themselves but it seems to be a double standard.

In regards to the DVDs that play for a limited amount of time, that was DIVX (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DIVX_%28Digital_Video_Express%29). We all know where that went.

[Ghostbear]

I don't have DVDs that play for a limited amount of times.

Your analogy is flawed. It would be more like having a dvd that only plays on a limited number of dvd players. I'm also willing to bet if you uninstall it will release one of the 10 installs.

[Karak]

No probs here. 10 is more than enough even after all my frequent problems. Also is there a game out there that does NOT release an install when you uninstall or have a problem. I am trying to think if there is but one doesn't come to mind.

[Acidpoptart]

I have been opposed to such systems by larger companies before, so it would hypocritical of me (and many people here) to not have an issue with this game doing it.

However, I am thinking 10 is high enough of a number to not matter. The only issue comes up if (and I hope this is not the case) the company ever goes belly up. Then how do we play our game?

I guess thats just the sacrifice we must make to have the convenience of digital distribution. Valve could go belly up and we'd all lose a ton of games. Then again, your game collection at your home might catch on fire... I guess no system is perfectly safe... I am starting to think I should just get over it... It may not be a huge deal.

[Hawkzombie]

Also, bigger companies can afford -better- means of DRM, in all honesty. Smaller companies either have none, or do things like this. I think people are more tolerant of it from smaller because the options are limited (Plus, the game is only 20 bucks, sure to go down in price over the years. For the level editor ALONE I'd pay 20).

[Goronmon]

Glad I got the Steam version, but it's still disappointing to see install limits come up again and again.

[Trebor]

I have been opposed to such systems by larger companies before, so it would hypocritical of me (and many people here) to not have an issue with this game doing it.

However, I am thinking 10 is high enough of a number to not matter. The only issue comes up if (and I hope this is not the case) the company ever goes belly up. Then how do we play our game?

I guess thats just the sacrifice we must make to have the convenience of digital distribution. Valve could go belly up and we'd all lose a ton of games. Then again, your game collection at your home might catch on fire... I guess no system is perfectly safe... I am starting to think I should just get over it... It may not be a huge deal.


I think everyone needs to step back and take a collective breath. In through the nose, hold it, now exhale. This is starting to go off the rails here. So what if you can only install this PC game 10 times. Please name a PC game that you have installed 10 times? I would think the population there would be nil. Steam gives you the option to not have to deal with this issue and as for Steam going belly up; there is a better chance of me winning the Florida Lottery than that happening. So to conclude this little sermon, buy Torchlight, enjoy the single player game, and then enjoy the MMO when it arrives. Who knows with Diablo 3 will arrive anyway.

[mightbe]

Plants versus Zombies. Halflife. TF2. Bookworm Adventures. Weird Adventures in Infinite Space. Oasis. Crimsonland. XCOM. Master of Magic. I could go on but OS revisions across three gaming capable systems runs you through 10 quick.

Which is why I get stuff on steam when possible. And you're completely right.

[Trebor]

Gotta love Steam, Impulse, Direct to Drive, GOG, etc. :D

[Ravenlock]

Here's my concern with limited activations. (And yes, I agree that "10 or more" acivations is not particularly worrisome.) How many games do I now own that have limited activations? I think at least 10 or so. Let's fast forward a few years. How many will I have then? Am I really going to keep track of each activation?

The response is always, "Hey, just call CS and get another activation when it comes up!" which is fine until it happens with every other legacy game I try to reinstall. As I said before, I reinstall older PC games quite often. That's an issue to me.

I don't have DVDs that play for a limited amount of times.

It seems to me that if you are getting it on Steam, no big deal. If this was an EA game, people would be up in arms yelling and screaming boycott. I'm all for supporting small developers and I understand their need to protect themselves but it seems to be a double standard.

In regards to the DVDs that play for a limited amount of time, that was DIVX (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DIVX_%28Digital_Video_Express%29). We all know where that went.

I find it a little amusing that people would say "If you're getting it on Steam, no big deal" - I mean, the scenario Telefrog is discussing is exactly the sort of situation where it being on Steam might be the very worst thing. I mean, just because Steam's been around for 6 years doesn't mean they'll still be around in another 10, or 15. With (currently) no way to archive your purchases from them, if their servers go down one day, there will effectively be no way to ever re-download and re-install your games.

At least with a disc-based or archive-based downloaded installation, the media is physically there and you have a chance either of them releasing a no-activation patch, or somebody cracking it after the company goes under. (And let me be clear, while I don't condone piracy, I absolutely condone cracks to remove DRM when the DRM is preventing a legit customer from playing the game.) With Steam, though, if they ever go under it may very well just all be tits up.

Don't get me wrong, I love Steam, I have a shit-ton of games from them (upwards of 100) and I'll probably buy Torchlight there. But to rejoice that the Steam version is "DRM free" because that way you can play it 10 years and 4 computers from now seems a bit naive. I never assume my Steam games will "always" be there.

[Trebor]

With the way things are going with this country right now, "we" may not be around in 10 or 15 years to debate the merits of Steam. There will always be those who want the physical media in their little hands when they make a purchase. All other DD options would place that option at risk. However I will point out that CD and DVD go bad after a certain period of time. The media can be damaged or lost over the course of 15 years. And there is also the question that will you be able to even run the game on the current crop of OS and hardware in the year 2024. So though your position does have merit, it however does not hold up over the course of time, in my humble option of course. Now time for something completely different....IT'S.....;)

[Ravenlock]

Wait, what? Your argument is "the apocalypse might happen, so who cares"? :p

Again, I love Steam and use it heavily. But the way their system is set up puts the control of your games entirely in their hands, so it makes no sense for people who claim to worry about DRM impacting the future of their games to celebrate Steam. At least with some other digital distribution systems you get an installer file you can then go make 20 backup copies of, if you're paranoid.

My point is just that "Oh no, DRM with install limits! That impacts my future choices!" and "Yay! It's on Steam, my troubles are solved!" are logically incompatible statements. I have no problem with Steam, I'm criticizing inconsistency. ;)

[Hawkzombie]

Wait, what? Your argument is "the apocalypse might happen, so who cares"? :p

Again, I love Steam and use it heavily. But the way their system is set up puts the control of your games entirely in their hands, so it makes no sense for people who claim to worry about DRM impacting the future of their games to celebrate Steam. At least with some other digital distribution systems you get an installer file you can then go make 20 backup copies of, if you're paranoid.

My point is just that "Oh no, DRM with install limits! That impacts my future choices!" and "Yay! It's on Steam, my troubles are solved!" are logically incompatible statements. I have no problem with Steam, I'm criticizing inconsistency. ;)

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[Trebor]

Two different points of view, isn't the universe a great place, I wouldn't live anywhere else? Now I need to find Vault 101 to keep all my DD copied games burned to Blueray DVDs safe from the coming apocalypse, in 15 years or so. Want me to hold the door open for you and your game collection?

Steam offers a solution to the "cry-babies" that get easily miffed that they can only install a PC game ten times. So I say good for Steam. In six months time it won't really matter anyway. Situations like these usually get remedied in that amount or less. I'm thinking less. :cool:

[Voodoo]

I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.

There are several of them (http://www.colonyofgamers.com/cogforums/forumdisplay.php?f=27)... :D BTW, we are recording the next one this evening and I don't doubt there will be some interesting discussions. :)

[RandoM51]

In regards to the DVDs that play for a limited amount of time, that was DIVX (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DIVX_%28Digital_Video_Express%29). We all know where that went.

That would seem to be Telefrog's point, though. DIVX failed because customers voted emphatically NO with their wallets. Nobody seems to be voting No in any great numbers to limited software activations, which would usually lead to more of it---should it prove an effective DRM solution---with the potential for even stricter limitations.

Bit of a slippery slope argument, I suppose, but there is precedent in the industry.

Somebody mentioned that you could just get the "crack" a few days after release, well, maybe, maybe not, many of your multiplayer titles nowadays are built to rely upon a centralized matchmaking server, if you can't validate with that server or in some way reverse engineer that server and put up your own, your crack allows you to play singleplayer but no multi. This is becoming *very* common, particularly for multiplayer-focused games that presume on always-on connection in the first place. Many of those games also feature weak or no singleplayer whatsoever, maybe coincidence, maybe not. :) Even singleplayer games are making good use of this indirect method of DRM, Tropico 3 is a good example. Without a valid key you can't create an online account, you can't check the scoreboards, you can't post your own scores/islands, review others, and/or look for/post new Challenges yourself. It is the sort of game that quickly loses its appeal without that sort of context to judge your performance and/or find new challenges.

Personally, I don't have a problem with number of activations, I do have a problem with the unstated assumption that the activation server will be online for as long as I want to play the game. We already know that this is not the case, many centralized gameservers don't even last beyond 2 years. That effectively means you're just "renting" the game, not buying it, and "renting" it for full price. Assuming the developer/publisher has the time and money---and more importantly, incentive---to do "the right thing" when they no longer can/want to support the game themselves is a really bad assumption to make.

I'm rather dismayed that Calling All Cars is being shutdown already. I own the game, didn't really like it that much but I could see where people who do like it would go back to it on a regular basis, perhaps for years. I think there needs to be some sort of explicit statement during the purchase process about how long the buyer can expect to play the game for and there needs to be some way for the buyer to get satisfaction if that agreement isn't met.

Would you buy a new car knowing that a) the maker could stop making parts for it at any time, and that b) nobody else would be able to legally make replacement parts for it? I think the answer is probably "No", "Hell no!" in my case. Car analogies always suck, oh well, best I could come up with.

[Hawkzombie]

That would seem to be Telefrog's point, though. DIVX failed because customers voted emphatically NO with their wallets. Nobody seems to be voting No in any great numbers to limited software activations, which would usually lead to more of it---should it prove an effective DRM solution---with the potential for even stricter limitations.

Bit of a slippery slope argument, I suppose, but there is precedent in the industry.

Somebody mentioned that you could just get the "crack" a few days after release, well, maybe, maybe not, many of your multiplayer titles nowadays are built to rely upon a centralized matchmaking server, if you can't validate with that server or in some way reverse engineer that server and put up your own, your crack allows you to play singleplayer but no multi. This is becoming *very* common, particularly for multiplayer-focused games that presume on always-on connection in the first place. Many of those games also feature weak or no singleplayer whatsoever, maybe coincidence, maybe not. :)

Personally, I don't have a problem with number of activations, I do have a problem with the unstated assumption that the activation server will be online for as long as I want to play the game. We already know that this is not the case, many centralized gameservers don't even last beyond 2 years. That effectively means you're just "renting" the game, not buying it, and "renting" it for full price. Assuming the developer/publisher has the time and money---and more importantly, incentive---to do "the right thing" when they no longer can support the game themselves is a really bad assumption to make.

Torchlight isn't multiplayer. At all.

[RandoM51]

Torchlight isn't multiplayer. At all.

Hey, I listed how even singleplayer games can be limited by centralized servers. :) Kind of a bummer about no multi in Torchlight.

[Ravenlock]

Two different points of view, isn't the universe a great place, I wouldn't live anywhere else? Now I need to find Vault 101 to keep all my DD copied games burned to Blueray DVDs safe from the coming apocalypse, in 15 years or so. Want me to hold the door open for you and your game collection?

Steam offers a solution to the "cry-babies" that get easily miffed that they can only install a PC game ten times. So I say good for Steam. In six months time it won't really matter anyway. Situations like these usually get remedied in that amount or less. I'm thinking less. :cool:

...I'm not arguing with you. I buy my games on Steam. I'm perfectly comfortable with digital distribution, and I know it doesn't mean I have lifetime access to the game.

Again - I'm saying that the people who cry about DRM preventing their lifetime access to the game, but then talk about how great Steam is, haven't thought it through. You don't seem to be one of those people, so we have no quarrel. Don't worry, I'm sure we'll come up with a different one to have later. ;)

[Ravenlock]

I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.

Why thank you! As Voodoo pointed out, I have a soapbox that you are welcome to stand next to any time you like. ;)

[Savok]

You guys do know you can back Steam stuff up onto a disc right? It'll even break stuff into DVD or CD sized chunks for you.

When Steam does die, I expect it'll come with two things. One is a warning that it's all coming to an end (if they see it coming anyway), secondly something that "unlocks" everything so using your disc based backups won't be rendered useless. In the event there's no official one of those, expect an unofficial one, this is the Internet afterall.

[PathMaster]

Wait a minute. Does it actually say some where that Torchlight checks w/ an online server when I want to play a singleplayer (offline) game?

I do not have broadband, but I do grab wifi occasionally. I could grab the game from Runic themselves, but if it wants to check every time I play, no go folks. Steam version would be a must at that point.

[TrackZero]

Who cares? At this point does it really matter? The install limitation will be removed within the year like every other game and if you use yours all up it's because you're either sharing the game with friends or not smart enough to install the game properly.


Agreed, if you need to reinstall it 10 times in a year, and somehow Runic's support wouldn't still help you out, you've got issues.

[Primus]

Diablo 3 will get released and completely erase the memory of this game for eternity.

[ClannerDelta]

Diablo 3 will get released and completely erase the memory of this game for eternity.

Three decades is still a long time to be remembered.

[Primus]

Three decades is still a long time to be remembered.

Well played.

[Ravenlock]

Damn. Hats off. Bravo. :D

[MagGnome]

I don't think that Diablo 3 will "erase" the memory of this game. I'm not likely to forget about Sins of a Solar Empire, for example, when Starcraft II releases. Although that could be because I have little interest in SC2 and I love Sins. Bad example. :p

Anyway, I think this is a whole lot of fuss about nothing. This sounds like the lightest DRM possible short of no DRM at all, which obviously they couldn't do considering the way in which they are distributing the game through their site.

I can't wait until this hits on Tuesday. :)

[roboninja]

You guys do know you can back Steam stuff up onto a disc right? It'll even break stuff into DVD or CD sized chunks for you.

When Steam does die, I expect it'll come with two things. One is a warning that it's all coming to an end (if they see it coming anyway), secondly something that "unlocks" everything so using your disc based backups won't be rendered useless. In the event there's no official one of those, expect an unofficial one, this is the Internet afterall.

Savok, what the hell is up with you talking sense all over the place recently? :p

[Savok]

You're just catching up to my genius is all.

[Hawkzombie]

I think I'm finally starting to affect his overly paranoid ass.

[mightbe]

It's puckering.

[Chimpbot]

Diablo 3 will get released and completely erase the memory of this game for eternity.

People will refer to it only as, "That game that came out that one time, I think. It might have started with a 'T' or a 'Q' or something. I don't know, it just didn't have enough silly hats."

This is, of course, in reference to the super-secret feature of Diablo 3; all of the most epicly epic items come in the form of silly hats only.

[RandoM51]

I'd backup Steam content if I had metered bandwidth, don't think I'd do it to protect myself against the demise of Steam and Valve until there were plenty of signs that was going to happen.

...they update the games regularly, if you don't backup just as often how good are your backups?

[Savok]

Dude, retail discs don't patch themselves either.

[Telefrog]

Dude, retail discs don't patch themselves either.

That's a given, but what about the games that are only available through Steam? IE - Dow II, Saints Row 2, and Empire: Total War. How will you patch those up when Steam goes away? I'm sure you'll be able to dig through various searches and eventually find them, but you'll need to really know what you're looking for.

[Ravenlock]

Well, it probably is safe to assume that with games for which Steam is the only platform on the PC, in the event of a Steam failure either (1) the publishers would come up with another venue to patch their game, or (2) no more patches would be forthcoming by the time Steam went under.

Though you're right that if you didn't have a backup that was up-to-date as of the time of the Steampocalypse, re-applying the originally-Steam-delivered patches might be a challenge. We're probably getting pretty far down the rabbit hole of ifs and maybes with that one, though. ;)

[Hawkzombie]

That's a given, but what about the games that are only available through Steam? IE - Dow II, Saints Row 2, and Empire: Total War. How will you patch those up when Steam goes away? I'm sure you'll be able to dig through various searches and eventually find them, but you'll need to really know what you're looking for.

"Saints Row 2 Patches"

Results 1 - 50 of about 177,000 for Saints Row 2 Patches. (0.52 seconds)

Yeah, eventually is right. A whole half a second is gone from my life, and I'll never get it back.

I think the problem here is everyone is assuming everyone who uses these services is an idiot who doesn't know or understand how to use things or search for 'work arounds' on their own, and will forever be SOL at the end of the day when Steam goes away or they've used up their activations, or whatever other DRM is hampering them.

The average consumer is, for the most part, not a complete retard. Sure not all of them will be smart enough to deduce that they CAN, in fact, make something work, but a lot more seem to be realizing this.

[Widgetcraft]

I'm buying this on Steam, so it isn't an issue for me. If Steam weren't an option, or was also affected by this DRM scheme, I'd just pirate the game. I simply don't buy games with install limits, it doesn't happen.

[muddi900]

I'd backup Steam content if I had metered bandwidth, don't think I'd do it to protect myself against the demise of Steam and Valve until there were plenty of signs that was going to happen.

...they update the games regularly, if you don't backup just as often how good are your backups?

I backup because redownloading is a bitch and I like play games on LAN with my brother. :D

[Telefrog]

Though you're right that if you didn't have a backup that was up-to-date as of the time of the Steampocalypse, re-applying the originally-Steam-delivered patches might be a challenge. We're probably getting pretty far down the rabbit hole of ifs and maybes with that one, though. ;)

I don't think it's that farfetched. You have to remember that all three of those games are sold as retail discs. It's not hard for me to imagine that most people don't think of backing up the updated software if they also have a retail copy sitting right in their collection. Not to mention that any backup of the software would still want Steam to authenticate when you installed it!

Just as a reminder to the people that think Valve is going to actually follow through on their vague promise that they will release keys to everything just before they go under, here's the Terms we all agreed to:

C. Termination by Valve.

1. In the case of a recurring payment Subscription (e.g., a monthly subscription), in the event that Valve terminates or cancels your Account or a particular Subscription for convenience, Valve may, but is not obligated to, provide a prorated refund of any prepaid Subscription fees paid to Valve.

2. In the case of a one-time purchase of a product license (e.g., purchase of a single game) from Valve, Valve may choose to terminate or cancel your Subscription in its entirety or may terminate or cancel only a portion of the Subscription (e.g., access to the software via Steam) and Valve may, but is not obligated to, provide access (for a limited period of time) to the download of a stand-alone version of the software and content associated with such one-time purchase.

3. In the case of a free Subscription, Valve may choose to terminate or amend the terms of the Subscription as provided in the "Amendments to this Agreement" section above.

There's nothing there about releasing keys or making stuff available to anyone once they go under/blow up/get bought out except in the most vague of terms. (By the way, the last scenario is the one we should really be the most worried about.) I use Steam. I like Steam. I do, however, treat all my Steam purchases as rentals for an as of yet undetermined time period.

[Voodoo]

I have a 3.5" floppy copy of X-Wing that is unplayable because the media is not readable any more. Turns out the discs they used have a lifespan... So, what are my options?

[Savok]

I don't think it's that farfetched. You have to remember that all three of those games are sold as retail discs. It's not hard for me to imagine that most people don't think of backing up the updated software if they also have a retail copy sitting right in their collection. Not to mention that any backup of the software would still want Steam to authenticate when you installed it!

Just as a reminder to the people that think Valve is going to actually follow through on their vague promise that they will release keys to everything just before they go under, here's the Terms we all agreed to:



There's nothing there about releasing keys or making stuff available to anyone once they go under/blow up/get bought out except in the most vague of terms. (By the way, the last scenario is the one we should really be the most worried about.) I use Steam. I like Steam. I do, however, treat all my Steam purchases as rentals for an as of yet undetermined time period.
One you're treating Valve like Activision, not the bizarre hippy commune it really is (granted that can change). Two in the event they do fuck us over, do you expect the Internet to take it lying down?

[Telefrog]

I have a 3.5" floppy copy of X-Wing that is unplayable because the media is not readable any more. Turns out the discs they used have a lifespan... So, what are my options?

Media not readable because the diskettes are damaged/degraded? Ebay it.

http://shop.ebay.com/?_from=R40&_trksid=p3907.m38.l1313&_nkw=x-wing+PC+game&_sacat=See-All-Categories

Media not readable because the discs are just ancient and you don't have a3.5 reader? Amazon it! http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000ALM3RC

Either way, a product's lifespan being limited by the hardware of the buyer isn't what I'm talking about. You can always dig up old hardware to run old media. If you look hard enough, you can find gramaphone cylinder players out there. I'm talking about the product lifespan being limited by the seller - an important distinction.

[Ravenlock]

If Steam weren't an option, or was also affected by this DRM scheme, I'd just pirate the game. I simply don't buy games with install limits, it doesn't happen.

Point of interest: it isn't actually voting with your dollars if you then just go steal it.

[Voodoo]

Media not readable because the diskettes are damaged/degraded? Ebay it.

http://shop.ebay.com/?_from=R40&_trksid=p3907.m38.l1313&_nkw=x-wing+PC+game&_sacat=See-All-Categories

Media not readable because the discs are just ancient and you don't have a3.5 reader? Amazon it! http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000ALM3RC

Either way, a product's lifespan being limited by the hardware of the buyer isn't what I'm talking about. You can always dig up old hardware to run old media. If you look hard enough, you can find gramaphone cylinder players out there. I'm talking about the product lifespan being limited by the seller - an important distinction.

I see... Unfortunately the media isn't readable even on my Pentium MMX box with its dual 3.5" floppies...

So I'm going to have to purchase the game again even though I already own it? Hmm... I don't see this as a huge step from having my Borderlands not available to me in 16 years when Valve is out of business. At least with Valve, there may be an option to get a stand alone copy but with my X-Wing I don't seem to have any other options outside of purchasing it again.

I like your gramaphone example. I think using a laser disc as an example would have been good too. For instance, having Star Wars on laserdisc does not entitle me to have it also on DVD because it is attached to the medium I purchased it on...

...attached to the medium I purchased it on...

Valve changes this by making is a possiblity that they will supply you with a stand-alone copy in the event that they go out of business. This makes their product medium superior than my Star Wars on laser disc.

2. In the case of a one-time purchase of a product license (e.g., purchase of a single game) from Valve, Valve may choose to terminate or cancel your Subscription in its entirety or may terminate or cancel only a portion of the Subscription (e.g., access to the software via Steam) and Valve may, but is not obligated to, provide access (for a limited period of time) to the download of a stand-alone version of the software and content associated with such one-time purchase.To me that's a much better media guarantee possiblity than I can get from a retail purchased copy.

[Ravenlock]

I use Steam. I like Steam. I do, however, treat all my Steam purchases as rentals for an as of yet undetermined time period.

Well, yes. That was pretty much what I was saying from the beginning, so I have no argument with this. Folks who assume that their Steam purchases are going to be around forever are, IMO, being naive.

And to some extent, people who assume any purchase is going to be around forever are being naive. If my house burns down, obviously those disc-based games I had are just gone, nobody's going to replace them for me, whereas if I had those games on Steam - at least for now - they'd be re-downloadable. There's a flipside to pretty much anything.

[Widgetcraft]

Point of interest: it isn't actually voting with your dollars if you then just go steal it.

...Uhh, yeah it is. Voting with your dollar means that you don't give someone money, or that you give money to someone more deserving. It has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not you pirate their product.

[Karmakin]

Valve going out of business is not by any means the biggest threat to the Steam system. Nowhere close. Valve is a VERY stable company with a quite a few income sources. And this will not likely change any time soon.

No, the real threat to Steam is a buyout of Valve, especially by a finance group who are looking to axe the assets for a quick profit then sell off the shell...something that happens in the economy far too often.

And the chances of this happening, considering that Valve is a very tightly owned private company, and considering Gabe in particular, are slim and none.

[Savok]

Unless Gabe dies on us. There's overweight and then there's Gabe.

[Ravenlock]

...Uhh, yeah it is. Voting with your dollar means that you don't give someone money, or that you give money to someone more deserving. It has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not you pirate their product.

Piracy turns your "vote" into a statement they won't - and shouldn't - listen to.

Choosing to go without a product rather than buy it under unacceptable conditions tells a company that they've made a decision that is costing them money.

Simply stealing the product gives the company no reason to believe that you would have purchased it regardless of what choices they made, and reinforces their belief that they need to focus their efforts on preventing theft.

Obviously they have no idea which one you personally did, but they do see their sales numbers and they probably keep an eye on torrent sites. The higher the piracy number, the less inclined they're going to be to think their actions caused the low sales. The folks pirating the game, regardless of their reasons, are part of the problem.

EDIT: I should clarify that this is a generalized statement, and not specific to Torchlight or Runic. I certainly hope not too many people are put off by their DRM choices, and that of that group not many choose to pirate the game, but I'm talking generally here about any game company doing something that ticks off their potential customers.

[Trebor]

Unless Gabe dies on us. There's overweight and then there's Gabe.

Yep, old Gabe need to go on the Atkins diet in a hard core manner. ;)

[RandoM51]

Dude, retail discs don't patch themselves either.

I don't back them up either... :)

My point is that you're going to have to download a patch of some sort even if you have a backup, especially if it is a multiplayer game.

People say it is a hassle to re-download stuff and I just don't see it. Start the download, go to bed. If you're somebody how gets a wild hair up his ass to play a game one day out of the year every 3-4 years and can't wait for the time it takes to download, don't uninstall it in the first place. Finding your backups and restoring them isn't any "easier" to me than just clicking "install" in the Steam client.

[Widgetcraft]

Piracy turns your "vote" into a statement they won't - and shouldn't - listen to.

It is amazingly naive of you to believe that they can even get accurate numbers on how many people have pirated a game, never mind attaching that to a person or message. Regardless, I do what is good for me (just like the people who implement restrictive DRM), and that means not buying games with DRM that I object to and still playing anything that I really want.

EDIT: I'd like to point out, again, that I will be buying this game, however; the Steam option is fine by me. If it weren't present, it would be a different story.

[cp#]

I do not think this game is going to sell a lot of copies even at $20. The lack of multiplayer is a huge deal breaker for me and others. I love the look and I'm willing to bet its a solid game, but I do not enjoy solo RPGs. I would be happy to pay $40-50 for a game with online multiplayer and a couple more classes

[J Arcane]

People are acting like there aren't already ways to patch the Steam out of games.

I played L4D the first time on a friend's Russian pirate copy with an English translation patch. The same friend played Portal days before release on a cracked copy.

Pirates know no limit, and have historically been the friend of all who seek to keep their games playable. Back when Underdogs was still active there were still people making fresh new cracks and patches for 20 year old games.

Information wants to be free. When it isn't, someone will make it that way.

[Voodoo]

I do not think this game is going to sell a lot of copies even at $20. The lack of multiplayer is a huge deal breaker for me and others. I love the look and I'm willing to bet its a solid game, but I do not enjoy solo RPGs. I would be happy to pay $40-50 for a game with online multiplayer and a couple more classes

The Witcher seemed to do pretty well.

[J Arcane]

Dragon Age only has three classes, no online multiplayer, and given they haven't said a word about one in over a year, I'm not sure it's going to get a toolset at launch.

And that one goes for $50-60.

[Ravenlock]

Pirates know no limit, and have historically been the friend of all who seek to keep their games playable. Back when Underdogs was still active there were still people making fresh new cracks and patches for 20 year old games.

Information wants to be free. When it isn't, someone will make it that way.

Let me be clear, I have absolutely no problem with folks patching or cracking games they've paid for to make them playable in any way they want. Remove Steam, remove the CD check, whatever. You buy the game, as far as I'm concerned it's yours to do with as you wish.

It is amazingly naive of you to believe that they can even get accurate numbers on how many people have pirated a game, never mind attaching that to a person or message. Regardless, I do what is good for me (just like the people who implement restrictive DRM), and that means not buying games with DRM that I object to and still playing anything that I really want.

EDIT: I'd like to point out, again, that I will be buying this game, however; the Steam option is fine by me. If it weren't present, it would be a different story.

I said very straightforwardly that of course they can't have any way of knowing what you personally do, but that doesn't mean that developers and publishers don't keep an eye on the piracy scene, of course they do. They may not get "accurate" numbers, but the more people pirate a game, the higher the numbers they do pull, and those numbers get responded to - frequently in unfortunately overreactive ways.

And I think it's equally naive to act like nonchalantly referring to piracy as a reasonable way to get what you want doesn't hurt anything. It promotes the idea that if something you want isn't offered in a way that you find ideal, it's A-okay to steal it. That line of thinking doesn't help anybody - well, maybe you, but only at the expense of the people creating the things you claim to want.

[MagGnome]

The Witcher seemed to do pretty well.

Didn't you know that a game has to have multiplayer or it will flop? ;)

[muddi900]

Well comparing Witcher and Torchlight is not fair. Ones a CRPG, others an ARPG.

[Voodoo]

Well comparing Witcher and Torchlight is not fair. Ones a CRPG, others an ARPG.

This seems awefully familiar and completely missed my point...

If Torchlight contained multiplayer, I guarentee you that it wouldn't cost $20 on release day. Also, when shopping for a publishing house, I have little doubt when the conversation came up about the multiplayer mode that other recent multiplayer actions RPGs were brought out. I haven't check but was the Sacred series and Titan Quest hugely successful?

It is with great regret that we must announce that as of close of business Tuesday, February 19, 2008 Iron Lore Entertainment has ceased active game development. Several unrelated events occurred which resulted in Iron Lore being unable to secure funding for its next project.

We would like to extend our thanks to everyone who has helped us in the last seven years – our team who moved mountains to create such great games, our publisher THQ who has been a great partner through three product development cycles, and most of all our customers and fans. We owe all of the success we’ve had to you, and our greatest satisfaction has come from creating games that have given enjoyment to the community.

While Iron Lore will not continue, the talent of the team is embodied in the individuals now available for other opportunities. If you are a developer or publisher looking to hire top-notch experienced developers, please send an email to pchieffo “at” ironlore “dot” com and we will be happy to facilitate recruiting with you.

Iron Lore also owns it’s powerful and flexible engine and tool set, and is actively pursuing licensing opportunities. If you are interested in further information about the technology and licensing options, please contact pchieffo “at” ironlore “dot” com.

Hmm... By other's assesments, Titan Quest should have been a cash cow for Iron Lore especially since it was a multiplayer action RPG. But, is it really the multiplayer component that makes an action RPG successful or is it the action RPG itself regardless of the # of players. Outside of the single player modes of Titan Quest & Sacred 1/2, I can't think of any other single player action RPGs that I'd be able to point to and say, "Oh no Runic, I wouldn't recommend that route..."

Quite contrary, I would bet that they calculated the potential return of investment on making the game single player vs multiplayer and the ROI on a single player route spelled more favorable...

..and for $20.

[mightbe]

This seems awefully familiar and completely missed my point...

Quite contrary, I would bet that they calculated the potential return of investment on making the game single player vs multiplayer and the ROI on a single player route spelled more favorable...

..and for $20.
A-fucking-men. And from a developer perspective, if the want to make an mmo, it's an awesome opportunity to get to show off your single player game to the public and get feedback on what it's like to spend 100 levels on a character.

I know $20 is a lot to some folks but as a pc game that runs on everything.

[MagGnome]

Making a good multiplayer game would have taken a lot more time, and probably would have led to them having to hook up with a big publishing house. I can certainly understand the desire for a multiplayer game, but I'm not disappointed in the least with the route that Runic took with this game.

Edit - Also, it can't be brought up enough that this game is $20! It looks like 10x more fun than many of the games I've paid $60 for!

[Savok]

Edit - Also, it can't be brought up enough that this game is $20! It looks like 10x more fun than many of the games I've paid $60 for!
And games I've paid over $100 for.

[MagGnome]

And games I've paid over $100 for.

You poor Aussies really have it rough. :/

[CappinCanuck]

That's a given, but what about the games that are only available through Steam? IE - Dow II, Saints Row 2, and Empire: Total War. How will you patch those up when Steam goes away? I'm sure you'll be able to dig through various searches and eventually find them, but you'll need to really know what you're looking for.

Pfft, E:TW is barely getting patched now, let alone in 10 years. Hell, the devs even wrote it off and turned the expansion into a new standalone game. I doubt this will be a problem. Support for games has generally been getting shorter and shorter, with very few remaining examples to the contrary.

Gone are the you could count on patches to keep coming until the game was fixed, friends.

[Bad Buddha]

I do not think this game is going to sell a lot of copies even at $20. The lack of multiplayer is a huge deal breaker for me and others. I love the look and I'm willing to bet its a solid game, but I do not enjoy solo RPGs. I would be happy to pay $40-50 for a game with online multiplayer and a couple more classes
Well, I'm at the other end of the spectrum and I'm much less likely to spend $40-50 on a game mostly geared toward multiplayer. I'd rather drop $20 on this than $50 on Borderlands or L4D2.

Waiting for that pre-load option to pop up! :D

[Telefrog]

Pfft, E:TW is barely getting patched now, let alone in 10 years. Hell, the devs even wrote it off and turned the expansion into a new standalone game. I doubt this will be a problem. Support for games has generally been getting shorter and shorter, with very few remaining examples to the contrary.

Gone are the you could count on patches to keep coming until the game was fixed, friends.

The issue isn't patch support forever. The issue I'm talking about is the availability of any patches at all when a legacy game is inherently tied to a particular DD system. Go a few years into the future. Will I be able to patch up Saints Row 2 on PC if Steam is gone or has decided to drop support for SR2? (Don't argue that it won't happen. This is my hand-waving theoretical dystopia. Not yours.) Without Steam, my retail box of SR2 is worthless. I can't even install it, let alone patch it.

In contrast, my copies of Starcraft, Age of Empires II, and Quake will always be right there in my desk.

[Ravenlock]

Having spent some hours with Torchlight this weekend, I've written a few words about it over here (http://www.erraticgamer.com), which you're welcome to go read. ;)

If you'd like the opinion of someone with a little more cachet (and believe me, I understand :p), Bill Harris also really, really loves it (http://dubiousquality.blogspot.com/2009/10/most-excellent-surprise.html).

I really hope it does very well.

[SilentScreams]

I've had it pre-ordered on Steam since it became available. Diablo 2 is probably my favorite game of all time, and I really loved Fate too. I never got to play Mythos, but I've heard almost exclusively good things about it from the people who played the early builds.
I can't see me not liking this game.

[Ravenlock]

If you really loved Fate I can 99% guarantee you'll love this game. Some elements very clearly pull their influences directly from Diablo (as Fate obviously did itself, to be fair), but the game mechanics feel so very similar to Fate that this can, in my opinion, essentially be called its spiritual sequel.

Of course as I understand it, WildTangent is also still making actual sequels to Fate without Travis's involvement, but I tried #2 in that series (#3 either just came out or is soon...?) and it wasn't much of a step past #1. This, on the other hand, very much feels like a loving refinement of those ideas.

[Karak]

If you really loved Fate I can 99% guarantee you'll love this game. Some elements very clearly pull their influences directly from Diablo (as Fate obviously did itself, to be fair), but the game mechanics feel so very similar to Fate that this can, in my opinion, essentially be called its spiritual sequel.

Of course as I understand it, WildTangent is also still making actual sequels to Fate without Travis's involvement, but I tried #2 in that series (#3 either just came out or is soon...?) and it wasn't much of a step past #1. This, on the other hand, very much feels like a loving refinement of those ideas.

Fate The Traitor's Soul is awesome. Has 1 and 2 in the same world with a ton more items. Also new character types and 3 races. Good game.

[Widgetcraft]

I wish the Steam version was coming out in the morning, instead of in the evening. Would be nice to play during WoW's downtime.

[Ravenlock]

Fate The Traitor's Soul is awesome. Has 1 and 2 in the same world with a ton more items. Also new character types and 3 races. Good game.

Oh, I wasn't saying they didn't add more stuff to Fate, they totally did, and some of it was pretty good. I just mean that "Fate 2" really just felt to me like an expansion pack to Fate. This feels like a legitimate sequel (or what would be a sequel if it was still in the same world). Same gameplay concepts, but a much improved visual style and some distinctly better level design, better combat, etc.

[SilentScreams]

So the dog can only ever be a dog in Torchlight, right?

[Ravenlock]

The whole fishing mechanic from Fate is in the game - fish will temporarily turn your pet into all sorts of monsters with different attributes.

Your pet's permanent choices are dog or cat. There are special fish that can permanently switch from dog to cat and vice-versa, though.

[MagGnome]

Is it 100% confirmed that this won't unlock on Steam until the evening? I have the whole day off tomorrow, and if I have to stare at that icon all day I'm going to be one very sad Gnome. :(

[MagGnome]

Gone are the you could count on patches to keep coming until the game was fixed, friends.

Those days never existed, my friend. I own several games that came out 10+ years ago and are still riddled with bugs. :p

[Ravenlock]

Is it 100% confirmed that this won't unlock on Steam until the evening? I have the whole day off tomorrow, and if I have to stare at that icon all day I'm going to be one very sad Gnome. :(

Well, the Steam store page says "This game will unlock in approximately 18 hours". Soooo that'd be 7PM Tuesday evening, EST.

Doesn't look good, buddy, sorry. :(

[MagGnome]

I'm going to cry if that turns out to be true.

WHY?!?!??!??!?!?!?!?!

[BigJonno]

I'm with you, Mags. I've gotta wait until 10PM. That's possibly a good thing, though, seeing as I have a raid tonight.

[Bad Buddha]

I checked the Torchlight Steam page when I got up this morning. 3 or 4pm Pacific Time. I'll be at physical therapy, but I'll have something to do when I get home.

Played about a half-hour of Fate before I left for work this morning!

I'm going to cry if that turns out to be true.

WHY?!?!??!??!?!?!?!?!

Man Up Nancy Boy!

Wait... you are a Nancy Boy.

Need a shoulder? :(

[Karak]

Oh, I wasn't saying they didn't add more stuff to Fate, they totally did, and some of it was pretty good. I just mean that "Fate 2" really just felt to me like an expansion pack to Fate. This feels like a legitimate sequel (or what would be a sequel if it was still in the same world). Same gameplay concepts, but a much improved visual style and some distinctly better level design, better combat, etc.

Oh no probs. I actually didn't think you were I was sort of trying to throw a bone ot the Fate crew who have done a good job keeping up the enjoyment of Fate without the original crew.
On thing strange, from what I am reading about Torchlight it has less things than the new addon for Fate.
For some reason I thought you could have multipule animal types in Torchlight. I admit its one of my fave things in fate:)
I will of course get Torchlight asap. If only for the editor to come out soon:)

[roboninja]

Dammit, this today, after Borderlands yesterday, and I am still only a couple of hours into Uncharted 2? Need moar time, please.

[MagGnome]

Man Up Nancy Boy!

Wait... you are a Nancy Boy.

Need a shoulder? :(

I just might! I leaped out of bed this morning hoping the game would be available, but it's not.

*sniffle* What am I going to do today?

I guess I'll watch more True Blood. :p

[Telefrog]

Your pet's permanent choices are dog or cat. There are special fish that can permanently switch from dog to cat and vice-versa, though.

Boo! I loved my permanent spider pet in Fate! :(

[Ravenlock]

Okay, wait, let me retract that statement - the pets you can choose at the beginning of the game are Dog and Cat, and that's it. And you can buy fish from a vendor that will permanently change it between those two.

You may find fish at a deeper dungeon level that will permanently turn your pet into a spider or goblin or who knows what, I don't know. I wouldn't rule it out, I just haven't come across that yet.

[MagGnome]

Okay, now strange things are happening on Steam.

The game is on the front page and still says "Pre-Order and Save 10%!" but when you click on the image it goes to the Torchlight page and the discount is gone. It also says that the game is out now, but in my Games list I still cannot install it.

Not that I've been refreshing the page or anything. :o

[Suave Peanut]

Restart Steam, you wacky gnome!

[MagGnome]

I restarted Steam a minute ago, but thanks for the advice.

It worked, and now I'm downloading the game.

YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Edit - I really should have showered before this came out, because now... :p

[Ravenlock]

According to Runic's Twitter, it is now "LIVE on Steam!" so maybe the countdown was inaccurate. I hope it's true!

EDIT: Awesome! Mags, I expect your impressions promptly after playing. ;)

[BigJonno]

YAY! Downloading now. Should be able to get about half an hour or so in before raid time.

[Esquilax1138]

Yay it's downloading! :D

[Ravenlock]

Grraahh, I'm trying to get it, but my home PC apparently can't connect to Steam's update server right now, so it still thinks it's locked :(

Hopefully I can get that rectified before I go home tonight so it'll be waiting for me.

Yes, I still have my non-Steam advance copy, but I want to play my paid-for, supporting-the-devs copy. :p

[cppcrusader]

Now I wish I had remembered to set up my PC for remote desktop last night so I could start the download while at work.

[MagGnome]

Grraahh, I'm trying to get it, but my home PC apparently can't connect to Steam's update server right now, so it still thinks it's locked :(

Hopefully I can get that rectified before I go home tonight so it'll be waiting for me.

Yes, I still have my non-Steam advance copy, but I want to play my paid-for, supporting-the-devs copy. :p

You are a strange man. :p

By the way, the download is 840MB, not the 400 that some people thought it would be. That's definitely a big difference.

It's still downloading, although it is 60% done now. I have a slow net connection and I was streaming an episode of True Blood at the same time. I'm going to shower and hopefully it will be done when I'm out. I can't wait!

I think we should start a new thread for the actual game, since the conversation is a little spread out right now.

[Ravenlock]

By the way, the download is 840MB, not the 400 that some people thought it would be. That's definitely a big difference.

Hunh. Yes it is.

I think we should start a new thread for the actual game, since the conversation is a little spread out right now.

Probably a good idea. Want to do the honors?

[MagGnome]

I started a new thread to discuss the game, so that we are not commenting in old news stories:

http://www.colonyofgamers.com/cogforums/showthread.php?p=398405#post398405


Edit - Ha, good timing Eric!

[CappinCanuck]

2. The boxed version won't have limited online activations, but will have DRM of some kind. Most likely disc-required.


Anybody seen any boxed versions? I've searched all the retailer's sites within 50 km and no mention of it or on Amazon.com.

[cppcrusader]

Anybody seen any boxed versions? I've searched all the retailer's sites within 50 km and no mention of it or on Amazon.com.

The boxed version isn't available yet, and they said in the IM interview that they didn't have a date for it yet.

[CappinCanuck]

The boxed version isn't available yet, and they said in the IM interview that they didn't have a date for it yet.

Thanks for the info. Boo, I was hoping to get the activation limit free box. If I can save up enough for this, it'll be a Steam buy I guess.

[MagGnome]

Thanks for the info. Boo, I was hoping to get the activation limit free box. If I can save up enough for this, it'll be a Steam buy I guess.

They said that they are not sure when the box version is going to hit. I think one of the main issues is that they won't make much, if any, money off of a box version unless they price it above $20, which they said in the interview they will not do. After publishing, shipping, and the retail cut, they'll get basically nothing.

[Cpl_Punnishment]

stupid question of the day:

been playing this on my netbook. it works, but isnt there a way on Steam to back up my game and transfer the saved game to my regular PC?

i seem to be missing it.

[Voodoo]

stupid question of the day:

been playing this on my netbook. it works, but isnt there a way on Steam to back up my game and transfer the saved game to my regular PC?

i seem to be missing it.

Steam Cloud saving is not enabled yet. It is easy to transfer the save games. I would link the info but I am on my phone.