Microsoft Disabling "Unauthorized" Memory Cards on 360 [Archive]

DoctorFinger

10-18-2009, 08:30 PM

While Microsoft has been touting some of the higher profile updates coming to the Xbox 360 in the next major dashboard update - such as Twitter and Last.fm - there are a few changes which have flown under the radar. Some of them are sort of cool (http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3176532); dedicated stores for the major music games like Lips, Rock Band and Guitar Hero as well as a new Tab for news. But one change will be sure to infuriate some gamers.

According to Major Nelson the new dashboard update will render "unauthorized" memory units inoperable, and any data saved on them will be inaccessible. A number of accessory companies produce memory cards in sizes of up to 16GB, as well as adapters which let you use SD cards as Xbox 360 memory cards. All of those will be rendered useless when the update goes live next month. This is an issue because the official memory units Microsoft sells are really freaking expensive; a 512MB card (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000O62OS6?ie=UTF8&tag=majornelsocom-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B000O62OS6) has an MSRP of $40, while the 120GB HDD (http://www.amazon.com/Xbox-360-120GB-Hard-Drive/dp/B000OYKQBU/ref=pd_bxgy_vg_text_c) sells for a robust $160.

Sources - Major Nelson (http://www.majornelson.com/archive/2009/10/16/unauthorized-xbox-360-storage-devices.aspx), Joystiq (http://www.joystiq.com/2009/10/17/upcoming-xbox-360-update-locking-out-unauthorized-memory-units/).

Zero

10-18-2009, 08:37 PM

Anti-consumer dick move.

yeti

10-18-2009, 08:44 PM

Every third party memory card I have ever used has always gone tits up after a few months (esp the PSX and N64 ones) so these are things I tend to stay away from anyway but MS really should let people use them if they want to. Seems like a petty thing to me.

Does anyone know if "unauthorised" memory units facilitate piracy? If so then I can understand MS actions a bit more.

Hawkzombie

10-18-2009, 08:51 PM

I could see it happening (the piracy bit, especially if you can use them to read SD cards) but...honestly...this is a dick move. What's next? Disabling 3rd party addons and controllers? Disabling my controler because it's not using an official MS battery pack? It's like telling computer users they can only use MS approved keyboards and mice, and won't let you login if you're using Logitech. Total bullshit, IMO.

I sense this is because of how expensive the MS memory is, how they don't want competition, especially with D2D sales going and more and more XBLA games using up more and more space. I dunno...I think a LOT of 3rd party guys are gonna be up in arms over this, and might try and do something about it. What I dunno (If anything other than bitch and moan).

Wolvie

10-18-2009, 09:04 PM

You can have any memory unit you want... as long as it's ours.

Iron Past

10-18-2009, 09:10 PM

What's next? Disabling 3rd party addons and controllers?

Considering those are authorized and licensed items, no. This is obviously about MS wanting to sell their own (overpriced) memory devices, but they're simply disabling stuff that wasn't licensed in the first place, so let's not get out of hand.

SilentScreams

10-18-2009, 09:24 PM

Meh. Their console, their choice.

I wouldn't trust any third party product when it comes to something important like memory anyway.

Wolvie

10-18-2009, 09:42 PM

Meh. Their console, their choice.

I wouldn't trust any third party product when it comes to something important like memory anyway.

Very true. My brother bought a PS1 unlicensed memory card back in the day. It had something like 300 pages worth of saves, which meant he could save all his games on one card, and not have to swap cards.
The downside was that it would ERASE his game saves from the previous page every time he went to a new page, rendering the extra 299 pages redundant.

The moral of my story? Sometimes unlicensed products are unlicensed for a reason; because they are worthless shit. Do some research before you buy.

OldJadedGamer

10-18-2009, 09:43 PM

Telefrog

10-18-2009, 09:45 PM

I can't really argue with this as much as I hate anti-consumer practices. In this case, MS has very good reasons.

Sazime

10-18-2009, 09:55 PM

I wonder if this will brick my HD...

Either way, it's pretty crappy. If someone wants to buy inferior memory to save their games on, it's their business.

TheEpicOfTyler

10-18-2009, 10:22 PM

If they are unauthorized then who cares? You are taking a gamble by using them. No console maker has ever said it's ok to use unauthorized products with the console... MS are just the first ones that can stop you from doing it with firmware updates.

Read your manuals of any Sega/Ninendo/Sony product, they all say that your warranty is voided if you use authorized products. Not really news IMO.

Is it against the law to void a warranty? I think it's one of those situations where- "I spent a lot of money on this, I want to do whatever the fuck I want with it."

I think it's a shitty move by MS.

Savok

10-18-2009, 11:11 PM

Wow, I knew this site had some MS Kool-Aid drinkers but... jesus.

Mike Kelehan

10-18-2009, 11:19 PM

Anti-consumer dick move.

Meh. Their console, their choice.

I wouldn't trust any third party product when it comes to something important like memory anyway.

I agree with both of these. It's their console, so they have every right to do this, but it's a colossal dick move that will cause them a lot of (well-deserved) ill will.

Sony lets me shop around for hard drives and USB flash drives, while MS is charging me a stupid amount for the same thing. If they sold HDD enclosures, I think the additional marketplace sales would more than make up for any lost revenue from the drives.

Jackel

10-18-2009, 11:28 PM

I wonder if this will brick my HD...

Either way, it's pretty crappy. If someone wants to buy inferior memory to save their games on, it's their business.

I was worried about this for mine as well, however I read on one of the blogs that MS confirmed later that this was only for memory units and not for hard drives as well.

Wow, I knew this site had some MS Kool-Aid drinkers but... jesus.

My thoughts exactly. Cutting off 3rd party memory is simply another opportunity for MS to price gouge consumers.

Farsight

10-18-2009, 11:45 PM

I just wonder why they never did this before.

Wow, I knew this site had some MS Kool-Aid drinkers but... jesus.

This just doesn't seem like a big issue... I've never used a 360 memory card. I care a lot more about their stupidly overpriced hard drives. They're losing a ton of money trying to gouge people on those. Of the people I know with 360s, nearly all of them want a bigger hard drive, and none of them are willing to crush their budgets for one... so all of them just use Live less.

Rune_74

10-18-2009, 11:47 PM

I was worried about this for mine as well, however I read on one of the blogs that MS confirmed later that this was only for memory units and not for hard drives as well.

My thoughts exactly. Cutting off 3rd party memory is simply another opportunity for MS to price gouge consumers.

they didn't cut off third party memory....read the news. They cut off unauthorized memory(that is not third party) this is more like the block party down the street was shut down.

Crowe

10-18-2009, 11:51 PM

People might not worry as much if they just lowered their god damn prices.

Jackel

10-19-2009, 01:04 AM

they didn't cut off third party memory....read the news. They cut off unauthorized memory(that is not third party) this is more like the block party down the street was shut down.

Since I'm not exactly "in the loop" what other major 3rd party memory unit brands are authorized?

I know that Datel, one of the few that offers a decent value for your dollar, is considered unauthorized.

I bet if you look at it, it is quite a bit more than the block party down the street...more like cutting down the neighborhood so Bill can get a larger house for him and his special friends.

OldJadedGamer

10-19-2009, 02:00 AM

Is it against the law to void a warranty? I think it's one of those situations where- "I spent a lot of money on this, I want to do whatever the fuck I want with it."

I think it's a shitty move by MS.

I agree but Sony for some reason still doesn't want me to put custom firmware on my PSP, also Sony wasn't a fan of me using an HDLoader on my PS2, and Apple isn't a fan of me jailbreaking my iPhone... WTF???!!??

I mean, I spent a lot of money on this, I want to do whatever the fuck I want with it.

Gorvi

10-19-2009, 02:05 AM

I agree but Sony for some reason still doesn't want me to put custom firmware on my PSP, also Sony wasn't a fan of me using an HDLoader on my PS2, and Apple isn't a fan of me jailbreaking my iPhone... WTF???!!??

I mean, I spent a lot of money on this, I want to do whatever the fuck I want with it.
Yep, an unauthorized memory card is exactly like hacking the system to let it perform unintended operations. Exactly.

There are a lot of uninformed Arcade owners who are going to be very pissed off when they buy their next new game that contains this update and all of their game saves are gone.

Loki

10-19-2009, 02:19 AM

Yep, an unauthorized memory card is exactly like hacking the system to let it perform unintended operations. Exactly.

It isn't exactly like that, but you knew that. It is similar in the fact that they're not allowing unauthorized methods of input into the console. By disabling the memory cards, they effectively have finished building the wall around the garden and disallowing information onto the console that they do not want.. This is assuming, of course, that there is no adapter for the official memory card.

Savok

10-19-2009, 02:27 AM

If you can't see there's no real relation between a fucking memory card and an entire OS you're beyond talking to.

This is assuming, of course, that there is no adapter for the official memory card.
Of course there is.

This has nothing to do with piracy, it's so they can gouge the fuck out of people by having a monopoly on memory.

Loki

10-19-2009, 02:36 AM

If you can't see there's no real relation between a fucking memory card and an entire OS you're beyond talking to.

Of course there is.

This has nothing to do with piracy, it's so they can gouge the fuck out of people by having a monopoly on memory.

Ummm. There is a relation between a memory card and the OS. Look at the original Xbox, which could be soft hacked by using a memory card that allowed you to modify the core OS.

I don't get why you're being an unabashed prick to me as I wasn't disagreeing with you. I was only providing another reason why they would ban memory cards that are just glorified MicroSD readers, which are easier to copy data onto versus getting an adapter to read a proprietary memory card.

You need to settle down a bit.

Sazime

10-19-2009, 03:02 AM

Ummm. There is a relation between a memory card and the OS. Look at the original Xbox, which could be soft hacked by using a memory card that allowed you to modify the core OS.

I don't get why you're being an unabashed prick to me as I wasn't disagreeing with you. I was only providing another reason why they would ban memory cards that are just glorified MicroSD readers, which are easier to copy data onto versus getting an adapter to read a proprietary memory card.

You need to settle down a bit.
He's right though. That hack had nothing to do with a memory card exploit, it was done with a buffer overflow exploit utilizing a readily available game. The memory card was not the doorway, just the unwitting attendant, if memory serves.

MosBen

10-19-2009, 03:47 AM

Man, I *just* purchased a new non-MS HD, so this had me worried. Thankfully it seems from some of you guys that this won't affect me. Here's to hoping...

Slack3r78

10-19-2009, 04:38 AM

When Savok is the voice of reason in a thread, you guys should really take a step back and reconsider what you're saying.

This is a bullshit move on Microsoft's part.

Savok

10-19-2009, 04:45 AM

He's right, when even a journalist can see the bullshit, that's a big pile of shit you're not seeing.

Vigil80

10-19-2009, 04:52 AM

While I'm sure it's part of the PR, I don't see Microsoft doing this as part of a move to protect their consumers from sub-par accessories. This is a dick move.

The 360 should always have been able to use things like flash drives as memory. It's got two USB ports right there on the front. There's not much fucking excuse for anything different.

Wilkz07

10-19-2009, 05:34 AM

not too concerned i have 2 of the ms memory units. will it just be a matter of time before microsoft figures out a way to disable all non-ms controllers?

Narradisall

10-19-2009, 05:39 AM

roboninja

10-19-2009, 06:20 AM

Wow, I knew this site had some MS Kool-Aid drinkers but... jesus.

The Kool-aid is green until you drink it, then it turns red.

Gorvi

10-19-2009, 06:27 AM

Meh, its a shitty move but I can understand why they are doing it (both the legit and 'other' reasons).

I don't even use the memory slot on mine, never have and never will. Still Im sure most will just backup their data and as its unlicensed they know the risks.
The problem isn't for those who know who visit sites like this, it's for those average Joe gamers who bought an Arcade unit and won't know any better until they buy a new game that updates their 360 for them and all of a sudden all of their game saves aren't accessable. You're going to have a lot of very unhappy Arcade owners calling MS and all they're going to be able to tell them is to go out and buy the $30 memory unit to replace the unit they had that worked just fine before the update.

mightbe

10-19-2009, 06:36 AM

My thought when I read the article was:
Oooh I want one.
Oh, it won't work anymore.

Oh well.

And if you still want to use your old unlicensed stuff, then don't update your console.

Stuff is licensed because they pay money to MS to make their hardware. People who aren't paying MS to make 360 peripherals can't really complain when MS makes them stop working.

Does what they're doing suck for folks who own these? Yup. But a savvy consumer should check for MS branding if they want to get stuff they know will work/continue to work.

Should MS make their own instead or allow the licensing of such a peripheral? I don't see why not. And if they really wanted to make some friends they'd sell an HDD enclosure for $50-100US. People would bitch about it, then buy it.

But the legions of people decrying this as a massive hit against freedom and the american way are a little wacko.

mightbe

10-19-2009, 06:37 AM

bapenguin

10-19-2009, 06:39 AM

The problem isn't for those who know who visit sites like this, it's for those average Joe gamers who bought an Arcade unit and won't know any better until they buy a new game that updates their 360 for them and all of a sudden all of their game saves aren't accessable. You're going to have a lot of very unhappy Arcade owners calling MS and all they're going to be able to tell them is to go out and buy the $30 memory unit to replace the unit they had that worked just fine before the update.

Except the last time I checked, Gamestop (http://www.gamestop.com/browse/search.aspx?N=0&Ntk=TitleKeyword&Ntx=mode+matchallpartial&Ntt=360%20memory%20card)/Best Buy (http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp;jsessionid=A78460F7F84A1D7EC1F787247A3 C0C95.bbolsp-app02-09?_dyncharset=ISO-8859-1&_dynSessConf=-2507414108738889749&id=pcat17071&type=page&st=xbox+360+memory+unit&sc=Global&cp=1&nrp=15&sp=&qp=&list=n&iht=y&usc=All+Categories&ks=960)/Wal-Mart (http://www.walmart.com/search/search-ng.do?search_constraint=0&ic=48_0&search_query=xbox+360+memory+card&Find.x=0&Find.y=0&Find=Find) aren't selling unauthorized 3rd party accessories.

mightbe

10-19-2009, 06:41 AM

Except the last time I checked, Gamestop/Best Buy/Wal-Mart aren't selling unauthorized 3rd party accessories.

Actually, some best buys do carry unauthorized stuff.

I bought a cable that allowed me to backup disk image of my memory card/HDD to my PC.

It didn't work so I took it back.

rein

10-19-2009, 06:42 AM

IMO it's not a massive hit against the American way, just a dick move. I will echo what others have said, if MS was not over-pricing their storage units then fine, but they are way over-priced so not fine. I'm close to being done with MS as a console maker anyway. For one I don't play my 360 nearly enough to support a company that I feel is doing some things wrong this generation. My main gripes, pay-to-play online and over-priced HDD. I'm upchucking the kool-aid.

Gorvi

10-19-2009, 06:43 AM

Except the last time I checked, Gamestop/Best Buy/Wal-Mart aren't selling unauthorized 3rd party accessories.
I know the Walmarts and Best Buys near me do, no clue about the EBs as I rarely see accessories there to begin with that aren't those used things they have in the plastic bags. I had bad luck with them with the PS2, so I never bothered giving them much of a second look, but when you look at the capacity/price value compared to the official versions they look like a good deal.

Slack3r78

10-19-2009, 06:45 AM

Except the last time I checked, Gamestop (http://www.gamestop.com/browse/search.aspx?N=0&Ntk=TitleKeyword&Ntx=mode+matchallpartial&Ntt=360%20memory%20card)/Best Buy (http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp;jsessionid=A78460F7F84A1D7EC1F787247A3 C0C95.bbolsp-app02-09?_dyncharset=ISO-8859-1&_dynSessConf=-2507414108738889749&id=pcat17071&type=page&st=xbox+360+memory+unit&sc=Global&cp=1&nrp=15&sp=&qp=&list=n&iht=y&usc=All+Categories&ks=960)/Wal-Mart (http://www.walmart.com/search/search-ng.do?search_constraint=0&ic=48_0&search_query=xbox+360+memory+card&Find.x=0&Find.y=0&Find=Find) aren't selling unauthorized 3rd party accessories.

What?

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=9466286&st=datel&lp=3&type=product&cp=1&id=1218109501259

mightbe

10-19-2009, 06:53 AM

Hehe, I think we've established that nick was mistaken.

And now that I've actually taken a minute to look, you can get a 120Gb HDD for about 70$ shipped online. That's actually not too cringe worthy to consider when a 2.5 120Gb SATA would set you back 15$ less than that.

And a year ago when I upgraded to a larger HDD and sold my old xbox+hdd, I bought an extra 20Gb for 20$+shipping off of ebay.

Yeti2005

10-19-2009, 07:02 AM

Yep, an unauthorized memory card is exactly like hacking the system to let it perform unintended operations. Exactly.

I think his point was the "I can do anything with my system because I bought it" is not valid.

That said, this will suck for all the consumers who bought those memory cards. Although I'd hope most people avoided them. When you walk into BestBuy and see an unauthorized Datel 2GB memory card next to a Microsoft 512 MB memory card for the same price, that should raise some alarms in your head.

bapenguin

10-19-2009, 07:05 AM

What?

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=9466286&st=datel&lp=3&type=product&cp=1&id=1218109501259

Bah, Best Buy's search sucked for me.

Well that's crap then. It'll be interesting to see the backlash from this - it's not unexpected - it's just too bad there's not another way around it from MS's perspective.

Talanvor

10-19-2009, 07:15 AM

People might not worry as much if they just lowered their god damn prices.

This, right here. MS charges a stupid amount for their HDs and memory cards. It makes Sony's bullshit with the Magic Gate Memory Sticks look reasonable by comparison.

I do have an official 120GB HD for my 360, but I only paid half MSRP, and I still feel like I got ripped off. Considering I just bought a 1.5TB HD for nearly the same price, it's beyond ridiculous.

TrackZero

10-19-2009, 07:15 AM

My thoughts exactly. Cutting off 3rd party memory is simply another opportunity for MS to price gouge consumers.

Right, instead they should shut up and keep doing official support for products that aren't even licensed to work with their hardware? Even if they're flaky memory cards wiping peoples stuff out? Dude.

As far as this being anti-consumer, it's a closed platform. It's the trade-off people choose when they purchase it. Go PC if you don't want the company at the other end to control your experience.

Now, complaining about what MS charges for their own memory cards/hard drives is completely valid.

Slack3r78

10-19-2009, 07:21 AM

Right, instead they should shut up and keep doing official support for products that aren't even licensed to work with their hardware?
Not supporting is not the same thing as intentionally blocking support.

Goronmon

10-19-2009, 07:22 AM

Third-party memory manufacturer's can go fuck themselves for the saves I've lost trying to use their shitty products in the past. I have no problem with this move and I'm having a hard time feeling any outrage at all.

Gorvi

10-19-2009, 07:26 AM

If they had done this fromt the beginning that would be fine, and really, a great thing. But to do this when there are at least thousands of people out there using them as their only method to save games, that's not so nice.

Savok

10-19-2009, 07:32 AM

Bah, Best Buy's search sucked for me.

Well that's crap then. It'll be interesting to see the backlash from this - it's not unexpected - it's just too bad there's not another way around it from MS's perspective.
Well gosh they could lower the prices of their memory to reasonable levels, say somewhere in the same solar system as everyone else. Reduce total outrage to rather annoyed, which is the normal state of most gamers anyway.

Or you know, just not do anything, let people have their memory cards.

TrackZero

10-19-2009, 07:35 AM

Not supporting is not the same thing as intentionally blocking support.

I beg to differ. Simply by allowing the option, you still have idiots calling in for support, costing you money. Therefore, from that perspective, they are the same thing.

Obviously from ours, they're not, but I was trying to give focus on how this plays from their viewpoint (as someone who's done support at a megacorp).

total

10-19-2009, 07:37 AM

"It's their console."

I keep hearing this, and I want to know how you guys got MS to buy you 360s. When I bought mine, Best Buy put my name on the receipt and everything.

Now if they don't want to let me on their online services because of how I use my device, that's fine. But don't intentionally break something I purchased because I want to use it in the manner I prefer.

bapenguin

10-19-2009, 07:53 AM

Well gosh they could lower the prices of their memory to reasonable levels, say somewhere in the same solar system as everyone else. Reduce total outrage to rather annoyed, which is the normal state of most gamers anyway.

Or you know, just not do anything, let people have their memory cards.

Memory cards for consoles are always over priced. Hell, all accessories are always over priced on consoles. Nothing has changed here since the age of the PS1 memory card.

Just because you compare it to a product that has a similar number in it, doesn't mean it should cost the same.

MosBen

10-19-2009, 07:54 AM

I'm as annoyed at this as anyone (well, probably not anyone), but I just don't understand people that can't get their heads around the fact that MS can run their platform however they want. You didn't go out and bash some caveman on the head to steal his rock. This is a media platform which is supported with software and has access to a continually updated online framework. Like with the NXE, if you don't want this update, disconnect your Xbox from the internet. There have been good points made about how unlicensed third party devices result in some degree of cost to MS, and there's also a fair point that licensed third parties pay a fee for access to MS' platform, so unlicensed devices represent a loss of income to MS as well.

Now look, I completely agree that MS' peripherals are overpriced. I wouldn't have ended up with a non-MS HD if their 120s were just stupidly expensive. I really don't know why every interview with them doesn't include a question about why their HDs are so expensive and when we can expect a price cut. That doesn't change the fact that MS is totally allowed to do this, even if it is a dick move.

Edit: To Bap, you're right that a lot of people compare MS' HDs to PC HDs, or MS' memory cards to an off-the-rack flash drive, which isn't a very fair comparison. Still, their memory cards and HDs, particularly the HDs, seem to me to be ridiculously overpriced. When the HD is close to the price of the cheapest version of the console, and half the price of the console with an HD, that strikes me as prohibitively expensive.

total

10-19-2009, 08:00 AM

What you said.

I would agree if I could turn my 360 on and still access the content I have paid for. If I could still use Playon, legally purchased XBLA titles and what not without updating to this (thus keeping the ability to use an unlicensed memory card) I would be fine with it. I'm not harming them, they're not harming me. As it stands, this just seems pretty anti-consumer to me. Note that I have the stupidly expensive 120GB, but I understand the aggravation some feel here.

Telefrog

10-19-2009, 08:01 AM

"It's their console."

I keep hearing this, and I want to know how you guys got MS to buy you 360s. When I bought mine, Best Buy put my name on the receipt and everything.

Sure. You have the same consumer choice that people who buy iPods have. Don't update and you can do whatever you want with the hardware. You'll miss out on the update features, and you won't be able to buy from the company store, but you'll be able to use that 3rd party memory all you want.

I really don't understand the outrage here.

Slack3r78

10-19-2009, 08:05 AM

I beg to differ. Simply by allowing the option, you still have idiots calling in for support, costing you money. Therefore, from that perspective, they are the same thing.
That's a cost of doing business. You are going to have customers waste your time if you provide support for anything, period.

Do you really think that intentionally breaking something that worked in the past is going to reduce the load on their support staff?

Savok

10-19-2009, 08:07 AM

Memory cards for consoles are always over priced. Hell, all accessories are always over priced on consoles. Nothing has changed here since the age of the PS1 memory card.

Just because you compare it to a product that has a similar number in it, doesn't mean it should cost the same.
Only that's no longer really true is it? PS3 you can put whatever you want in it, the Wii lets you use whatever brand of SD card you like. Yet here we have the 360 purposely going out of their way to gouge you.

Slack3r78

10-19-2009, 08:14 AM

Edit: To Bap, you're right that a lot of people compare MS' HDs to PC HDs, or MS' memory cards to an off-the-rack flash drive, which isn't a very fair comparison.
What exactly about Microsoft's USB flash drive.... err... I mean "memory card" makes it worth being 32 times the cost of a conventional flash drive?

Mot Wakorb

10-19-2009, 08:14 AM

Only that's no longer really true is it? PS3 you can put whatever you want in it, the Wii lets you use whatever brand of SD card you like. Yet here we have the 360 purposely going out of their way to gouge you.

Simple solution. Stop buying Microsoft gaming products. Problem solved. If it's really this much of an issue, switch to another platform and move on. Microsoft has the right to run their platform in the way they choose.

I'm interested - of all of you that are outraged, how many of you have "unauthorized third party memory cards?" How many of you have Microsoft specific cards?

bapenguin

10-19-2009, 08:14 AM

Only that's no longer really true is it? PS3 you can put whatever you want in it, the Wii lets you use whatever brand of SD card you like. Yet here we have the 360 purposely going out of their way to gouge you.

It's not a fair comparison.

Look, I agree that the accessories are way over priced. Particularly the hard drive and memory card.

But the fact remains that if you were to buy first party accessories from any of the console manufacturers, you get over charged.

Look at the Sony Bluetooth headset. It's double the price of other headsets out there. Same is true for the video cables on the Wii or the PS3. Nintedo sells a hunk of plastic called a "zapper" for $20. Hell that stupid chatpad thing on the PS3 is $50!

Whether you believe it or not, these companies are trying to make money. Shocking, I know.

Gorvi

10-19-2009, 08:16 AM

Sure. You have the same consumer choice that people who buy iPods have. Don't update and you can do whatever you want with the hardware. You'll miss out on the update features, and you won't be able to buy from the company store, but you'll be able to use that 3rd party memory all you want.

I really don't understand the outrage here.
You can't do that with the 360, at least I'm 99% sure you can't. Every game should come with the latest firmware on it relative to when it was released. If you want to play a new game you have to have the latest version of the OS.

bapenguin

10-19-2009, 08:17 AM

What exactly about Microsoft's USB flash drive.... err... I mean "memory card" makes it worth being 32 times the cost of a conventional flash drive?

Nothing. Absolutely nothing.

Slack3r78

10-19-2009, 08:19 AM

It's not a fair comparison.
I don't understand how it's not. Microsoft's competitors allow the use of off the shelf storage devices. Microsoft doesn't, forcing their customers to buy first-party devices at inflated rates instead.

How much more of a direct comparison can you make?

bapenguin

10-19-2009, 08:20 AM

I don't understand how it's not. Microsoft's competitors allow the use of off the shelf storage devices. Microsoft doesn't, forcing their customers to buy first-party devices at inflated rates instead.

How much more of a direct comparison can you make?

Read the rest of my post. If you can't understand the context of it, read it again.

Savok

10-19-2009, 08:22 AM

I'm interested - of all of you that are outraged, how many of you have "unauthorized third party memory cards?" How many of you have Microsoft specific cards?
I own neither kinds, but I have this weird mental problem called "empathy".

It's not a fair comparison.

Look, I agree that the accessories are way over priced. Particularly the hard drive and memory card.

But the fact remains that if you were to buy first party accessories from any of the console manufacturers, you get over charged.

Look at the Sony Bluetooth headset. It's double the price of other headsets out there. Same is true for the video cables on the Wii or the PS3. Nintedo sells a hunk of plastic called a "zapper" for $20. Hell that stupid chatpad thing on the PS3 is $50!

Whether you believe it or not, these companies are trying to make money. Shocking, I know.
Not a fair comparison? Comparing removable storage with other removable storage on the exact same setup (home console) isn't fair?

And yes, there's all kinds of overpriced crap out there, amazing. Do I need to buy a $20 piece of plastic to save my game on certain kinds of Wii? No? Ok. Enough straw men arguments, your bias is showing.

Slack3r78

10-19-2009, 08:24 AM

Read the rest of my post. If you can't understand the context of it, read it again.

I understand that you're saying first party accessories are expensive. We all understand that.

What the rest of us are saying is that Microsoft is the only one of the major platforms that only allows for first-party storage devices. We're not talking about some ephemeral grouping of 'accessories' with no real meaning; we're discussing storage options specifically.

It's not that Microsoft charges a lot for a first party accessory. They all do that, yes, we get it. It's that Microsoft is the only one that gives its customers no other option in terms of storage beyond their high priced first party accessories.

total

10-19-2009, 08:25 AM

You can't do that with the 360, at least I'm 99% sure you can't. Every game should come with the latest firmware on it relative to when it was released. If you want to play a new game you have to have the latest version of the OS.

I'm glad you caught on. Exactly what I was going for.

mightbe

10-19-2009, 08:26 AM

If you're willing to buy an unlicensed product, why not just buy an official product from the secondary market? That seems to eliminate the qualms of "OMG TOO EXPENSIVE!!! WAAAH"

bapenguin

10-19-2009, 08:26 AM

I own neither kinds, but I have this weird mental problem called "empathy".

Not a fair comparison? Comparing removable storage with other removable storage on the exact same setup (home console) isn't fair?

And yes, there's all kinds of overpriced crap out there, amazing. Do I need to buy a $20 piece of plastic to save my game on certain kinds of Wii? No? Ok. Enough straw men arguments, your bias is showing.

It has nothing to do with bias. The pricing argument is invalid as to why someone decided to do something with their closed system.

Does Nintendo and Sony have a leg up on Microsoft on this? Absolutely. And you know what? You should go play those systems and give money to those companies instead of bitching and crying at the internet that Microsoft took your toys away.

Problems solved.

mightbe

10-19-2009, 08:27 AM

Simple solution. Stop buying Microsoft gaming products. Problem solved. If it's really this much of an issue, switch to another platform and move on. Microsoft has the right to run their platform in the way they choose.

I'm interested - of all of you that are outraged, how many of you have "unauthorized third party memory cards?" How many of you have Microsoft specific cards?

I own a card that I used to take saves for a few games between mine and my friend's xbox. I got it on sale at best buy for 25$

Telefrog

10-19-2009, 08:27 AM

Gorvi

10-19-2009, 08:31 AM

I'm sure the pirates don't worry about the firmware updates.
Of course they don't, but they're also running hacked systems that bypass those updates and they're not connected to LIVE to begin with so they're not being force updated.

total

10-19-2009, 08:31 AM

I'm sure the pirates don't worry about the firmware updates.

What pirates? The ones who bought a larger memory card for their Xbox or the ones who bought a cheapo hard drive on ebay?

mightbe

10-19-2009, 08:32 AM

What pirates? The ones who bought a larger memory card for their Xbox or the ones who bought a cheapo hard drive on ebay?

This update doesn't bork HDD's. It borks unlicensed memory cards.

Telefrog

10-19-2009, 08:39 AM

Of course they don't, but they're also running hacked systems that bypass those updates and they're not connected to LIVE to begin with so they're not being force updated.

Correct. And everyone has the same option.

As people keep declaring, they bought the hardware, it's theirs to do what they will. I'm agreeing. Go ahead. Skip the update and hack your console.

Or... Get the update and deal with it.

I find no difference with this than with any other official firmware update on a closed system.

Savok

10-19-2009, 08:39 AM

It has nothing to do with bias. The pricing argument is invalid as to why someone decided to do something with their closed system.

Does Nintendo and Sony have a leg up on Microsoft on this? Absolutely. And you know what? You should go play those systems and give money to those companies instead of bitching and crying at the internet that Microsoft took your toys away.

Problems solved.
Some poor brat who barely scrapped enough money together for an Arcade unit and a cheap memory card is about to get a nasty surprise and we're not allowed comment on that because it's a "closed system"?

Nope, no bias here.

total

10-19-2009, 08:42 AM

I find no difference with this than with any other official firmware update on a closed system.

I think the big difference is that I'm sure a lot of people went out and bought unauthorized memory cards at retail not understanding that MS would eventually disable the product they paid good money for. Hell I'm sure a majority of these people didn't even know the memory card they were buying wasn't from MS.

Gorvi

10-19-2009, 08:44 AM

Correct. And everyone has the same option.

As people keep declaring, they bought the hardware, it's theirs to do what they will. I'm agreeing. Go ahead. Skip the update and hack your console.

Or... Get the update and deal with it.

I find no difference with this than with any other official firmware update on a closed system.
That's all fine and dandy for all those tech savy people out there that even know this is coming. The problem comes up when we're talking about those families that bought their kid a 360 Arcade at Walmart and, thinking they were getting a deal, bought an unlicensed memory unit, not knowing any better. Those people are fucked as soon as they put in a new game. That is where the problem comes in. There's a lot more people out there than you might think.

We tend to only think of the hardcore when we think of console owners, but hell, a guy I work with only has an Arcade and barely plays games aside from the odd shooter offline and Madden, there's a good chance he's going to lose his saves. And yes, I'll warn him.

bapenguin

10-19-2009, 08:47 AM

Some poor brat who barely scrapped enough money together for an Arcade unit and a cheap memory card is about to get a nasty surprise and we're not allowed comment on that because it's a "closed system"?

Nope, no bias here.

I agree it sucks and isn't fair. And you know what? Microsoft is going to have to deal with that when it comes up. Not you.

Telefrog

10-19-2009, 08:54 AM

Savok

10-19-2009, 08:56 AM

That's all fine and dandy for all those tech savy people out there that even know this is coming. The problem comes up when we're talking about those families that bought their kid a 360 Arcade at Walmart and, thinking they were getting a deal, bought an unlicensed memory unit, not knowing any better. Those people are fucked as soon as they put in a new game. That is where the problem comes in. There's a lot more people out there than you might think.

We tend to only think of the hardcore when we think of console owners, but hell, a guy I work with only has an Arcade and barely plays games aside from the odd shooter offline and Madden, there's a good chance he's going to lose his saves. And yes, I'll warn him.
There's also the pre-mentioned kid who saved up all his pocket money. Most of us have forgotten just how difficult it used to be getting the money together before we had incomes.

TrackZero

10-19-2009, 08:58 AM

It's that Microsoft is the only one that gives its customers no other option in terms of storage beyond their high priced first party accessories.

How how soon they forget:

Nintendo Under Fire A History of Adversity (http://www.games.net/article/feature/115781/nintendo-under-fire-a-history-of-adversity/)

Gorvi

10-19-2009, 08:58 AM

No, I'm completely with you on the non-tech-savvy people that this may hit. It sucks for them.

Then again, it sucks for them that all sorts of hardware is limited by the manufacturers and gets changed by firmware updates all the time. Shit man, I have a TV that updated it's firmware recently. I have no idea what changed, but I guarantee it wasn't done to open the hardware's capabilities and allow me easier access to fiddle with it. I bet if I dug around, I'd find out that some kind of choice was taken from me with the update.
Well, the whole point is that it sucks for them, that's entirely what's wrong with it. Just because other products get updates, often locking out unintended uses of said products, doesn't mean that this one all of a sudden should get a free pass, especially since what it's locking out is commonly sold alongside the system in question.

Heck, can you think of an update for a game system that would be worse than taking away access to all of your game saves? Aside from bricking the system itself, of course.

I'm really surprised they're doing this, they have to know they're going to be pissing off a lot of people.

TrackZero

10-19-2009, 09:00 AM

That's a cost of doing business. You are going to have customers waste your time if you provide support for anything, period.

Yeah, no. Sorry, your opinion isn't reality.

Do you really think that intentionally breaking something that worked in the past is going to reduce the load on their support staff?

Yup, long-term.

total

10-19-2009, 09:02 AM

Telefrog

10-19-2009, 09:04 AM

The best analogy I can come up with is that this is basically the same as Apple releasing a firmware update for the ipod that disables a large chunk of 3rd party accessories in place of a 1st party one.

Oh, no. Haven't you read? People already decided my iPod example was not the same thing. ;)

mightbe

10-19-2009, 09:07 AM

I'm really surprised they're doing this, they have to know they're going to be pissing off a lot of people.

I think people will be concerned when it happens but the actual number of people with these devices is probably incredibly small.

I hadn't even heard of them until this update. And I know a couple of people with xboxes.

but yes... THINK OF THE CHILDREN D: D: D:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3456/3912520116_1265c7fba0.jpg

Kids are being enlisted into the military because of this update!

Gorvi

10-19-2009, 09:12 AM

NotJeff's daughter has boogers because of this update!
And my grandmother's sweater! ;)

EDIT: Bah, you changed the pictuer! :p

Honestly, I'm not quite sure how many people will be effected, but it's got to be at least a decent number (that I won't even attempt to estimate). I just know that back in my younger years when I was more social (before kids and all) I was always surprised to see that most people with PS2s (and PS1s before that) used those crappy 3rd party unlicensed cards because they were cheaper and offered more space. I always told them to get a real one since their saves were on borrowed time, but nobody ever wanted to listen.

mightbe

10-19-2009, 09:14 AM

NJ didn't want MS knowing he was using an unlicensed third party child.

Gorvi

10-19-2009, 09:15 AM

NJ didn't want MS knowing he was using an unlicensed third party child.
So we're talking about a cyborg child here? Sweet! :p

No disrespect at all to NJ and his child, of course.

mightbe

10-19-2009, 09:18 AM

Next update: MS DISABLES CHILDREN FOR PROFIT!

See? The slippery slope has lead us all to a dismal end!

[Jez]

10-19-2009, 09:34 AM

I made myself a 120GB drive... hope this doesnt bite me in the arse

Yeti2005

10-19-2009, 09:35 AM

Kelegacy

10-19-2009, 09:41 AM

Yeti2005

10-19-2009, 09:56 AM

I never want to see Microsoft be the leader in this industry. It would be terrible for consumers.

I agree but then again I don't want Sony or Nintendo leading the industry either. The best thing for the industry (especially the consumers) is when the competitors are close to each other in market share. Sony falling from #1 is a great example. Now MS, Sony, and Nintendo are all fighting for the customer's dollar with price cuts, added features, great games, etc.

Adam Blue

10-19-2009, 10:00 AM

Jackel

10-19-2009, 10:00 AM

I wonder if there will be a nice message that says "I'm sorry but you're memory card is from an authorized manufacturer" or if it will be "Error 545347" when someone tries to use an unauthorized card.

I also wonder if Datel will inform their customers or recall their product or if they'll just blindly let people continue to buy unlicensed products?

It probably won't matter too much, retailers will stop carrying these devices once they start getting returned as un-usable. Datel won't have much say in the matter.

Zero

10-19-2009, 10:02 AM

Look at the Sony Bluetooth headset. It's double the price of other headsets out there. Same is true for the video cables on the Wii or the PS3. Nintedo sells a hunk of plastic called a "zapper" for $20. Hell that stupid chatpad thing on the PS3 is $50!

Whether you believe it or not, these companies are trying to make money. Shocking, I know.

Yes, but Nintendo and Sony aren't prepping updates (that we know of) to lock out 3rd party accessories so the option is still there.

BabyJesus

10-19-2009, 10:10 AM

Massive dick move. I hate Microsoft.

They want to charge their ridiculous rates and not have any competition. That's the bottom line. I just hope the PS4 or whatever it's called doesn't do away with the open HDD. Meanwhile, we all know Microsoft will keep up the proprietary bullshit and continue to rape consumers.

I never want to see Microsoft be the leader in this industry. It would be terrible for consumers.

I agree that the accessories are overpriced by a pretty large margin and MS should just lower the prices period, but they are doing it to protect themselves. I am not much into the piracy scene on the 360(or any piracy scene) but its probably related to that AND the fact that they want you to buy their stuff.

Not defending them, but they do have to protect themselves.

Norse

10-19-2009, 10:16 AM

Were do you buy "unauthorized" memory cards? I don't think I've ever seen those in shops over here.

At least anyone who bought a 360 in 07 or later won't have a problem since all version has been sold with storage since then.

OldJadedGamer

10-19-2009, 10:31 AM

What exactly about Microsoft's USB flash drive.... err... I mean "memory card" makes it worth being 32 times the cost of a conventional flash drive?

The same magic memory that makes a PS2 memory card worth $25 buck 8megs of ram nine years after launch.

I don't understand how it's not. Microsoft's competitors allow the use of off the shelf storage devices. Microsoft doesn't, forcing their customers to buy first-party devices at inflated rates instead.

How much more of a direct comparison can you make?

Which of those competitors you mentioned where on store shelves when the 360 launched? What system do you think they based their memory card prices from at the time?

Some poor brat who barely scrapped enough money together for an Arcade unit and a cheap memory card is about to get a nasty surprise and we're not allowed comment on that because it's a "closed system"?

Nope, no bias here.

Arcade units ship with memory on the motherboard.

I agree it sucks and isn't fair. And you know what? Microsoft is going to have to deal with that when it comes up. Not you.

No they won't. Just like Sony, Sega, and Nintendo they will refer you to the company that made the unlicensed product. Go ahead and call Sony and tell them an unlicensed memory card wiped all your save files... see how much help they give you.

I never want to see Microsoft be the leader in this industry. It would be terrible for consumers.

Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't you a Windows users supporting Microsoft being a leader in the industry?

Slack3r78

10-19-2009, 10:34 AM

How how soon they forget:

Nintendo Under Fire A History of Adversity (http://www.games.net/article/feature/115781/nintendo-under-fire-a-history-of-adversity/)

Oh shit, my bad. I forgot that the NES is a direct competitor to Microsoft's Xbox 360! My bad!

Yeah, no. Sorry, your opinion isn't reality.
Yeah, I'm just imagining all the years I've worked dealing with end users in both business and retail environments. I am completely dreaming up the fact that you will always lose time to customers for things that aren't your fault. Nothing about reality there.

Yup, long-term.
Not in any manner more significant than a statistical fluctuation. You are absolutely kidding yourself if you think this is about support costs rather than protecting Microsoft's high margin accessory business.

Slack3r78

10-19-2009, 10:41 AM

Which of those competitors you mentioned where on store shelves when the 360 launched? What system do you think they based their memory card prices from at the time?
Given they both use off the shelf parts for storage, they based it on general market pricing.

And those competitors are on the market currently, with Microsoft just now deciding to block third party devices. I'm not sure what them coming onto the market has to do with much of anything.

Arcade units ship with memory on the motherboard.
Only within what? The last 6 months?

No they won't. Just like Sony, Sega, and Nintendo they will refer you to the company that made the unlicensed product. Go ahead and call Sony and tell them an unlicensed memory card wiped all your save files... see how much help they give you.
Hey, look. OJG just game me an example of customers wasting your time wanting support for a product that isn't yours. I thought I was just imagining that that happens.

rein

10-19-2009, 10:47 AM

As many shitty things that Microsoft does, there's a lot they have done to move gaming forward. After the demise of the Dreamcast and rise of PS2, we needed something like an XBox. The PS2 was released with only two control ports and no modem or online play...that was only going backwards.

I think proprietary accessories aren't a big deal. I think the cost for entry in the first place is pretty good, and if you really wanted memory and had nothing, you can get 20GB drives pretty cheap.
The only thing I think Microsoft pushed forward was online community/gaming. If anything, Sony took a lot of shit for pushing some things like blu-ray forward. Sony also pushed hard-drives (not proprietary), and blue-tooth (which is great for headset). Both Nintendo and Sony pushed wireless networking and motion control.

I'm not sure what you meant by "...that was only going backwards." The PS2 did not release with online play but they did release the modem/network adapter and Sony was the first to release MMO's on a console. I think they were already headed in the direction of online play this generation they just launched it in a shitty way.

I'm all for competition and think it pushes the industry forward but to give all of the credit to Microsoft is giving Microsoft too much credit. If anything, Microsoft launched the original Xbox with a hdd in every system and then took a step backward with the 360 in that department so they could charge for the over-priced proprietary hdds.

OldJadedGamer

10-19-2009, 10:56 AM

Given they both use off the shelf parts for storage, they based it on general market pricing.

And those competitors are on the market currently, with Microsoft just now deciding to block third party devices. I'm not sure what them coming onto the market has to do with much of anything

The main system on the market with 120 million sold was the PS2 and it had a very successful business model of overcharging for accessories (and still does to this day). So MS looked at the very... very successful PS2 market and saw how much money they were missing out on and decided to follow Sony's path and do the same. Only after the fact that the 360 was released did these other two competitors come out. Remember, Sony didn't even announce that every system would have an HDD until the last second... right before the price was announced 5 months before launch.

Also, you can't do a lot of what you are thinking with the USB memory cards and external HDD's on the PS3 as you think you can. You cannot save games to it directly, you cannot put PSN games on them, you cannot put movies you pay for through their movie service on them. The only thing you can do with them that you can't do on the 360 is transfer your save file that is already there to it and back. Nothing else.

From my personal experience backing up saves to a USB memory stick, three games got corrupted, one game wouldn't allow me to transfer at all, and one save file took over an hour to transfer one way.

I'm not sure what you meant by "...that was only going backwards." The PS2 did not release with online play but they did release the modem/network adapter and Sony was the first to release MMO's on a console. I think they were already headed in the direction of online play this generation they just launched it in a shitty way.

And don't forget that before the official PS2 modem adapter came out games like Tony Hawk supported pretty much any USB modem. Then once Sony released the official Network adapter, they killed support for external USB modems and the only way to get your system online was through the official overpriced modem.

Slack3r78

10-19-2009, 11:03 AM

The main system on the market with 120 million sold was the PS2 and it had a very successful business model of overcharging for accessories (and still does to this day).
The PS2 also allowed for the use of... wait for it... standard off the shelf hard drives.

So MS looked at the very... very successful PS2 market and saw how much money they were missing out on and decided to follow Sony's path and do the same. Only after the fact that the 360 was released did these other two competitors come out. Remember, Sony didn't even announce that every system would have an HDD until the last second... right before the price was announced 5 months before launch.
I still don't see how this is relevant to Microsoft deciding to block third party storage units today, after the fact.

Also, you can't do a lot of what you are thinking with the USB memory cards and external HDD's on the PS3 as you think you can. You cannot save games to it directly, you cannot put PSN games on them, you cannot put movies you pay for through their movie service on them. The only thing you can do with them that you can't do on the 360 is transfer your save file that is already there to it and back. Nothing else.
Except that you can easily replace the internal, off the shelf hard drive, and Sony, in fact, supports doing so. Want a bigger hard drive in your PS3? Then order any 2.5" SATA drive from Newegg. No such option with the 360.

rein

10-19-2009, 11:04 AM

And don't forget that before the official PS2 modem adapter came out games like Tony Hawk supported pretty much any USB modem. Then once Sony released the official Network adapter, they killed support for external USB modems and the only way to get your system online was through the official overpriced modem.No way you will ever hear me say Sony is perfect. They are not. But they did improve a lot of things this generation. If it was not for the price and arrogant attitude at launch they would have totally kicked ass with the PS3. I don't mean in sales numbers, I mean in doing the right thing. IMO, releasing a console as open as the PS3 is a good thing for consumers.

Savok

10-19-2009, 11:07 AM

Arcade units ship with memory on the motherboard.
I just looked and it's 256Mb, I think my 486 had more then that. Enough for most saves, kid'll still be getting a memory card though for XBLA.

And just because everyone else got to be complete bastards doesn't mean MS should be allowed to now. In fact it means shouting at MS is even more important so we can break this cycle of whoever is on top acting like a prick to everyone else.

total

10-19-2009, 11:12 AM

Nothing else.

You can also install Linux off of one and recover your system from a botched update. You can also play a plethora of audio and video formats off it and look at your pictures from it.

Shadowstorm

10-19-2009, 11:29 AM

Dick move.

OldJadedGamer

10-19-2009, 12:01 PM

The PS2 also allowed for the use of... wait for it... standard off the shelf hard drives

While you could install them, no game supported it. Only the official HDD that shipped with FFXI was supported for gaming. The only thing that non Sony HDD supported was for backing up and pirating games with things like the HDLoader. And don't forget that the HDD on the PS2 would not work unless... wait for it... you bought the official over priced network adapter. Also, allowing people to use any HDD hurt the company to the point where they removed the function hurting all previous FFXI users.

And just because everyone else got to be complete bastards doesn't mean MS should be allowed to now. In fact it means shouting at MS is even more important so we can break this cycle of whoever is on top acting like a prick to everyone else.

I'm not saying I agree with it but looking at history, I understand it.

I still don't see how this is relevant to Microsoft deciding to block third party storage units today, after the fact.

The only reason that Sony didn't block this stuff with the PS2 is because the technology wasn't there to do it. MS has the tech to do it now. When Sony was able to block these uses of non-Sony licensed stuff, they did as I showed with the modem example and Tony Hawk.

You can also install Linux off of one and recover your system from a botched update. You can also play a plethora of audio and video formats off it and look at your pictures from it.

You sir are a total liar. I cannot install Linux on my PS3. Also, audio and video can be played from a 360 USB stick. This is not unique to the PS3.

Mike Kelehan

10-19-2009, 12:14 PM

You sir are a total liar. I cannot install Linux on my PS3. Also, audio and video can be played from a 360 USB stick. This is not unique to the PS3.

Not a total liar, just mistaken. I can install Linux on my PS3. It was a feature removed from the slim models.

total

10-19-2009, 12:20 PM

You sir are a total liar. I cannot install Linux on my PS3. Also, audio and video can be played from a 360 USB stick. This is not unique to the PS3.

If you have a PS3 slim, you are correct. If you have a fatty, here you go. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux_on_the_PlayStation_3) And I misread what you said about the usb stick. You are correct, the features I included are not exclusive to the PS3.

OldJadedGamer

10-19-2009, 12:48 PM

Not a total liar, just mistaken. I can install Linux on my PS3. It was a feature removed from the slim models.

I was playing on his username... I'm sure he overlooked that the new Slim can't install Linux but does go to show how Sony is slowly removing the openness of the system.

Adam Blue

10-19-2009, 01:04 PM

Wii updates knockout the homebrew channel. Sony, during the PS2's height, announced they will not allow 2D games on their system. The XBox then got a bunch of great titles, started XBLA, making Sony look bad. MS pushed harddrives by including one in their console...proprietary or not.

The point is, this issue isn't a big deal. Every console maker has their own ways of coming across as 'dicks'. But saying MS isn't doing any good for consoles is just wrong.

mightbe

10-19-2009, 01:37 PM

Yes, but Nintendo and Sony aren't prepping updates (that we know of) to lock out 3rd party accessories so the option is still there.

There is a huge difference between Third Part and Unlicensed. A third party peripheral can pay MS and go through the certification process to be a licensed product. Not doing this makes you unlicensed.

mightbe

10-19-2009, 01:40 PM

txshurricane

10-19-2009, 01:41 PM

total

10-19-2009, 01:46 PM

Can I just say..."ownt"?

By telling someone on an internet forum (you know they made these things to have discussions in!) to shut up? I think our definitions of ownt are a tad different.

Narradisall

10-19-2009, 01:47 PM

The problem isn't for those who know who visit sites like this, it's for those average Joe gamers who bought an Arcade unit and won't know any better until they buy a new game that updates their 360 for them and all of a sudden all of their game saves aren't accessable. You're going to have a lot of very unhappy Arcade owners calling MS and all they're going to be able to tell them is to go out and buy the $30 memory unit to replace the unit they had that worked just fine before the update.

True Gorvi. I can't really argue with that, and I do suppose I take for granted that the level of tech knowledge here is probably above the average comsumers.

I'm still a bastard for backing up people that make risky decisions, or purchase things with no checking up.

I mean I walk into a store and see two products of a similar nature, one cheaper than the other. Taking into account price hikes associated with certain 'brands' there's still usually a good reason for the cheaper cost.

I still agree it is a dick move on MS part that I doubt is being made other than to cut these guys out. Still plenty of other authorised products to buy rather than the overpriced MS stuff.

Sl1pstream

10-19-2009, 01:49 PM

The PS2 did not release with online play but they did release the modem/network adapter and Sony was the first to release MMO's on a console.

I'm pretty sure that Sega beat them to it. Both the network functionality and the MMO.

txshurricane

10-19-2009, 01:54 PM

By telling someone on an internet forum (you know they made these things to have discussions in!) to shut up? I think our definitions of ownt are a tad different.
Did you not read the previous twelve posts' worth of back-and-forth between them?

I think our definitions of "culminating a debate" are a tad different. ;)

rein

10-19-2009, 01:57 PM

The point is, this issue isn't a big deal. Every console maker has their own ways of coming across as 'dicks'. But saying MS isn't doing any good for consoles is just wrong.I absolutely agree. I don't think anyone is saying Microsoft isn't doing any good for the console market but they don't get all of the credit for this generations progress either. All three console makers have their fair share of good and bad points.

It still doesn't change that this is sort of a dick move by MS. I understand why they are doing what they are doing but it's a little late in the game for it and I don't think it can be said enough that they need to lower the price of their hard drives.

TheFlyingOrc

10-19-2009, 02:04 PM

The only thing I actually hate about my Xbox is the accessory prices and they just get worse and worse.

total

10-19-2009, 02:16 PM

Did you not read the previous twelve posts' worth of back-and-forth between them?

I think our definitions of "culminating a debate" are a tad different. ;)

I think that is the point of a forum. I didn't really see any point where anyone has pressed too far on an issue for it to become meaningless. Aside from the, "well just don't buy the 360 you've long paid for and go use something else." That pretty much defeats the point of the discussion. I'm guessing this would be a pretty boring place if every time people had a polarized issue one of the mods said, "go use something else and shut up about it."

Gorvi

10-19-2009, 02:22 PM

The only thing I actually hate about my Xbox is the accessory prices and they just get worse and worse.
And that it's not made by Nintendo. Come on, admit it. ;)

mightbe

10-19-2009, 02:25 PM

The only thing I actually hate about my Xbox is the accessory prices and they just get worse and worse.

Check the secondary market. They just keep getting cheaper and cheaper.

TheFlyingOrc

10-19-2009, 02:28 PM

And that it's not made by Nintendo. Come on, admit it. ;)

I would prefer if I could play all of Nintendo's games on the same box that I play everything else on. Luckily, Nintendo solved that problem for me by not releasing any games anymore! Hooray!

Sazime

10-19-2009, 02:28 PM

Check the secondary market. They just keep getting cheaper and cheaper.
You mean "Used Stuff"? Secondary Market sounds like a marketing term brought to us by eBay. :)

I'm big on buying directly from retailers or manufacturers just for having the ability to get actual support. My 360 had just been repaired when I bought it used. When I first called about an issue (HD, not the 360 itself) they changed the owner information and told me I had NO warranty support.

No issues since then, but if I had I would have been boned.

TheFlyingOrc

10-19-2009, 02:29 PM

Check the secondary market. They just keep getting cheaper and cheaper.

I actually bought my 120gig HD from eBay, but I paid slightly above what I thought was reasonable for the MSRP to be. The secondary market should be cheap, not "almost reasonable".

Zero

10-19-2009, 02:33 PM

I'm big on buying directly from retailers or manufacturers just for having the ability to get actual support. My 360 had just been repaired when I bought it used. When I first called about an issue (HD, not the 360 itself) they changed the owner information and told me I had NO warranty support.

No issues since then, but if I had I would have been boned.

Weird. They definitely take RRoD systems back even if they were used though.

OldJadedGamer

10-19-2009, 02:34 PM

It still doesn't change that this is sort of a dick move by MS. I understand why they are doing what they are doing but it's a little late in the game for it and I don't think it can be said enough that they need to lower the price of their hard drives.

Agreed, they do need to lower the price of their harddrives since they are only hurting themselves. People with bigger harddrives means people who can buy more stuff online. I have many friends that haven't updated yet because of how expensive the harddrives are.

As for the unlicensed memory cards, again... they are unlicensed for a reason. If they want to be licensed, they can go through the proper channels and avoid this stuff.

txshurricane

10-19-2009, 02:37 PM

I think that is the point of a forum. I didn't really see any point where anyone has pressed too far on an issue for it to become meaningless. Aside from the, "well just don't buy the 360 you've long paid for and go use something else." That pretty much defeats the point of the discussion. I'm guessing this would be a pretty boring place if every time people had a polarized issue one of the mods said, "go use something else and shut up about it."
Funny...you don't mind railing someone for agreeing with Bap's post, but you sure didn't take the opportunity to disagree yourself.

The fact that you'd rather someone not say "stop whining" is near tantamount to telling said person to "shut up" in itself. Quite the conundrum you've unearthed!

Gorvi

10-19-2009, 02:39 PM

As for the unlicensed memory cards, again... they are unlicensed for a reason. If they want to be licensed, they can go through the proper channels and avoid this stuff.
And you're forgetting, your average consumer buying these things in Walmart doesn't really know the difference. Locking them out from the outset is one thing, and really, the right thing to do, but locking them out 4 years into the console's life is just stupid. These things have been on sale for the 360 for a long time now, if they were going to do it and not piss off a lot of people they missed that chance.

txshurricane

10-19-2009, 02:43 PM

And you're forgetting, your average consumer buying these things in Walmart doesn't really know the difference. Locking them out from the outset is one thing, and really, the right thing to do, but locking them out 4 years into the console's life is just stupid. These things have been on sale for the 360 for a long time now, if they were going to do it and not piss off a lot of people they missed that chance.
This to me is really the only problem with this move. Of course, if anyone's buying a $400 machine that plays $60 software, I'd say it's their responsibility to know the difference between "compatible with" and "licensed for".

Also, how can anyone blame Microsoft for how Wal-Mart shelves and advertises unlicensed third-party products?

Could MS do better? Yes. Is it their obligation? Nope. And they're hardly the first.

roboninja

10-19-2009, 02:51 PM

And you're forgetting, your average consumer buying these things in Walmart doesn't really know the difference. Locking them out from the outset is one thing, and really, the right thing to do, but locking them out 4 years into the console's life is just stupid. These things have been on sale for the 360 for a long time now, if they were going to do it and not piss off a lot of people they missed that chance.

This is how it should have been handled. The fact that they once worked and no longer will is the problem here. The discussion has gotten into a few other things like reasonable pricing, but that is not really the point. The fact is that you have thousands of users out there with a 360 memory card they bought at Best Buy; it was on the shelf next to the system they were buying. These were working fine for the past 3 years. Now they no longer will. Horrible customer experience, and I cannot see how anyone can argue otherwise.

Gorvi

10-19-2009, 02:53 PM

This to me is really the only problem with this move. Of course, if anyone's buying a $400 machine that plays $60 software, I'd say it's their responsibility to know the difference between "compatible with" and "licensed for".

Also, how can anyone blame Microsoft for how Wal-Mart shelves and advertises unlicensed third-party products?

Could MS do better? Yes. Is it their obligation? Nope. And they're hardly the first.
I was referring to the $200 Arcade units, those that would actually want the memory unit. And while I agree they should know, that's not the reality most of the time. The bottom line is they know that it works and that's what matters to them. Heck, I know I owned one of these back on the PS1, and I got burned for it when it stopped working. I know a lot of us had the same thing happen, it's why most of us don't use those. But many of us still had them at one point.

txshurricane

10-19-2009, 02:54 PM

This is how it should have been handled. The fact that they once worked and no longer will is the problem here. The discussion has gotten into a few other things like reasonable pricing, but that is not really the point. The fact is that you have thousands of users out there with a 360 memory card they bought at Best Buy; it was on the shelf next to the system they were buying. These were working fine for the past 3 years. Now they no longer will. Horrible customer experience, and I cannot see how anyone can argue otherwise.
I don't see how that's Microsoft's fault, though. Did anyone here order their unlicensed devices from MS?

rein

10-19-2009, 02:54 PM

I'm pretty sure that Sega beat them to it. Both the network functionality and the MMO.You're right. I didn't think about PSO and should probably be shot. In my defense I was thinking more along the lines that Sony wasn't headed in a backward direction on the PS2 with bringing online gaming to consoles. Still... ....my head is hung in shame for leaving out PSO.

total

10-19-2009, 02:54 PM

Funny...you don't mind railing someone for agreeing with Bap's post, but you sure didn't take the opportunity to disagree yourself.

I made my opinion pretty clear earlier in the thread. If you didn't read it, I will repeat. It seems like a pretty anti-consumer move to me. I do think Microsoft has a very good reason for doing it though. To make more money on accessories.

The fact that you'd rather someone not say "stop whining" is near tantamount to telling said person to "shut up" in itself. Quite the conundrum you've unearthed!

Sure, what you said. A mod telling someone to stop whining on a forum is completely warranted. Especially when that person is having a rational discussion.

txshurricane

10-19-2009, 02:59 PM

Sure, what you said. A mod telling someone to stop whining on a forum is completely warranted. Especially when that person is having a rational discussion.
I can't tell if you're being serious or sarcastic, but my point remains that if you don't like what I said, then by your own standards...too bad. :)

roboninja

10-19-2009, 03:00 PM

I don't see how that's Microsoft's fault, though. Did anyone here order their unlicensed devices from MS?

It' not their "fault". This change is, however. The change is the problem.

total

10-19-2009, 03:03 PM

I can't tell if you're being serious or sarcastic, but my point remains that if you don't like what I said, then by your own standards...too bad. :)

I really don't think I need to spell out the differences for you. I'm pretty sure you can see them for yourself.

OldJadedGamer

10-19-2009, 03:14 PM

And you're forgetting, your average consumer buying these things in Walmart doesn't really know the difference. Locking them out from the outset is one thing, and really, the right thing to do, but locking them out 4 years into the console's life is just stupid. These things have been on sale for the 360 for a long time now, if they were going to do it and not piss off a lot of people they missed that chance.

The unlicensed cards haven't been on sale for that long actually. Less than six months if memory serves me right unless you have a link showing the 4 years they've been out (they haven't)

Yup here it is. These were released in May. So 4 months.... not four years. I am very intrested why you were under the assumption that they have been out "for a long time now".

http://www.engadget.com/2009/05/16/datel-gets-first-stab-at-third-party-memory-card-for-xbox-360-s/

Cit Phil Cit

10-19-2009, 03:15 PM

Unprecedented event of agreeing with most of Savok's posts, in a single thread.

Years in the making.

Dick move, end of story.

Vigil80

10-19-2009, 03:21 PM

Yeehaw, this thread blew up.

Fact 1: Overpriced 1st party or "authorized" accessories are overpriced.
Fact 2: Of course MS is allowed to do such a thing.
Fact 3: That doesn't stop it from being a crappy thing to do.

Activision is allowed to take the PC features out of the PC version of MW2, too. But it's still a nice warm baked good dropped on consumers' doorsteps.

And a fourth fact - as far as I'm concerned - is that MS is neither protecting consumers from crappy peripherals (on purpose) nor cutting their support costs. Realize that for every person that called before saying "mah card don't work," those people are still going to call. The only thing that will change is what the support monkey tells them when they do.

It's true that inferior product is a problem with the 3rd party stuff, and those purchases are often ill-advised. You know what could be as effective a fix as locking down your box? Open up the standard a little.

I don't own any memory cards, I bought an Elite. But I know how to recognize a pattern when I see one, and I don't like this one, whether it's MS, Sony, Nintendo, etcetera.

Yeti2005

10-19-2009, 03:31 PM

Sazime

10-19-2009, 03:39 PM

Weird. They definitely take RRoD systems back even if they were used though.
Eh, rep could have been mistaken. It happens. :)

mightbe

10-19-2009, 04:11 PM

You mean "Used Stuff"? Secondary Market sounds like a marketing term brought to us by eBay. :)

I'm big on buying directly from retailers or manufacturers just for having the ability to get actual support. My 360 had just been repaired when I bought it used. When I first called about an issue (HD, not the 360 itself) they changed the owner information and told me I had NO warranty support.

Buying a used HDD won't void your warranty. In fact, when you send your box for repairs, you don't send your HDD. Neither will buying a refurbished (by MS) one and those are the cheapest. They even come with the transfer cable.

Now if you use an UNLICENSED HDD, that'll void the shit out of your warranty.

mightbe

10-19-2009, 04:12 PM

Weird. They definitely take RRoD systems back even if they were used though.

In fact, they have. Before I sold my last box, I checked to make sure it could get a repair if someone else bought it. Rep told me sure, they just had to re-register the 'box when they got it by calling them.

Vigil80

10-19-2009, 04:16 PM

Is it crappy move? Yes but it helps the consumer and MS in the long term. People are getting way too worked up over this. Seriously how many of us are even impacted by this change? If the products have only been out for a few months I'm guessing this impacts a very small percentage of 360 owners.

I'm not worked up, personally. Not even pissed, really. I would describe myself as miffed. And the reality is that I'm not affected by this individual event at all. But slippery slope, buzz-term that it is, is a real thing, and I find myself rather wary of it. With many issues, I'm more concerned about the precedent than the immediate ramifications.

Sazime

10-19-2009, 04:33 PM

Buying a used HDD won't void your warranty. In fact, when you send your box for repairs, you don't send your HDD. Neither will buying a refurbished (by MS) one and those are the cheapest. They even come with the transfer cable.

Now if you use an UNLICENSED HDD, that'll void the shit out of your warranty.
But the HD won't be under warranty. That's my point. Or any other device you buy second hand. Generally, if it wasn't registered properly and you don't have the receipt, you're SOL.

crazyD

10-19-2009, 04:59 PM

TrackZero

10-19-2009, 05:06 PM

You can really tell the fanboys by the people using the old, "America. Love it, or move to France, you terrist," argument. Seriously? We can't have a discussion on consumer unfriendly practices on a gaming forum?

You can. But it helps if you don't identify everyone who doesn't share your opinion as a fanboy. Pro tip.

Jeffool

10-19-2009, 05:11 PM

OldJadedGamer

10-19-2009, 05:32 PM

I'm insanely curious as to what part of this you think helps consumers in the long term?

Using unlicensed products like memory cards actually can damage your system. Like unlicensed cheap Chinese controllers frying your controller ports, memory being corrupted, and AC adapters frying your system.

This has been going on since the beginning of time. When it's licensed, then the console maker is giving it's thumbs up that it passes their level of quality and won't mess up your system.

Gorvi

10-19-2009, 05:35 PM

The unlicensed cards haven't been on sale for that long actually. Less than six months if memory serves me right unless you have a link showing the 4 years they've been out (they haven't)

Yup here it is. These were released in May. So 4 months.... not four years. I am very intrested why you were under the assumption that they have been out "for a long time now".

http://www.engadget.com/2009/05/16/datel-gets-first-stab-at-third-party-memory-card-for-xbox-360-s/
Because I know I've been seeing them for a long time now. Heck, I haven't even seen that particular unit.

crazyD

10-19-2009, 05:36 PM

You can. But it helps if you don't identify everyone who doesn't share your opinion as a fanboy. Pro tip.

No, I just identify everyone who uses stupid fucking argument devices to justify what is clearly a negative action for consumers as a fanboy.

bapenguin

10-19-2009, 05:40 PM

The other point I wanted to make was that no matter what the price of the first party accessory, even if reasonable, there will always be a cheaper 3rd party accessory.

Mike Kelehan

10-19-2009, 05:40 PM

I'm pretty sure that Sega beat them to it. Both the network functionality and the MMO.

Sega did beat Sony in terms of network functionality (I remember playing Saturn Bomberman online), but Everquest Online Adventures was, to my knowledge, the first console MMO. PSO was a 4 player game, which is hardly massive... unless you're thinking of something else?

Vigil80

10-19-2009, 05:43 PM

Using unlicensed products like memory cards actually can damage your system. Like unlicensed cheap Chinese controllers frying your controller ports, memory being corrupted, and AC adapters frying your system.

This has been going on since the beginning of time. When it's licensed, then the console maker is giving it's thumbs up that it passes their level of quality and won't mess up your system.

Generally I agree with you, I really do, but let's take a second. We're saying that it'll all be better because Microsoft's QC department gave those devices a passing grade? The same department that may as well have red rings emblazoned on all their nametags?

I don't really feel much better. :p

OldJadedGamer

10-19-2009, 05:43 PM

Because I know I've been seeing them for a long time now. Heck, I haven't even seen that particular unit.

Then you'll have an easy time finding a link to them and posting it here.

Generally I agree with you, I really do, but let's take a second. We're saying that it'll all be better because Microsoft's QC department gave those devices a passing grade? The same department that may as well have red rings emblazoned on all their nametags?

I don't really feel much better. :p

Do you trust Sony's QA even after they settled a class action lawsuit over defective PS2's? How about MS releasing XP after Windows ME?

Gorvi

10-19-2009, 05:48 PM

Then you'll have an easy time finding a link to them and posting it here.
I've seen them in stores, the hell if I'd know where to find a link for them. I actually have better things to do than scour the internet looking for off the wall 3rd party unlicensed accessories.

Sazime

10-19-2009, 06:04 PM

The other point I wanted to make was that no matter what the price of the first party accessory, even if reasonable, there will always be a cheaper 3rd party accessory.
Except HDs, right? Has MS authorized anyone to make those for the 360 yet?

Kelegacy

10-19-2009, 06:05 PM

Except HDs, right? Has MS authorized anyone to make those for the 360 yet?

Not that I know of. Very good point.

OldJadedGamer

10-19-2009, 06:09 PM

I've seen them in stores, the hell if I'd know where to find a link for them. I actually have better things to do than scour the internet looking for off the wall 3rd party unlicensed accessories.

That's because there aren't any. Thanks for playing though.

Gorvi

10-19-2009, 06:10 PM

That's because there aren't any. Thanks for playing though.
You keep telling yourself that. In the mean time you can try to find more ways to vilify Sony to make MS look better in doing this.

rein

10-19-2009, 06:14 PM

You keep telling yourself that. In the mean time you can try to find more ways to vilify Sony to make MS look better in doing this...but he bought a PS3 slim. ;)

...just giving you a hard time OJG. :D

violent

10-19-2009, 06:20 PM

You keep telling yourself that. In the mean time you can try to find more ways to vilify Sony to make MS look better in doing this.

To be fair, OJG doesn't vilify Sony as I've seen him give credit to them few times before. He does, however, seldom make a point without using Sony as some sort of justification for someone else doing fucked up shit. That's where the perception derives from I'd wager.

Kenzington4short

10-19-2009, 06:36 PM

Looking at online retailers (Gamestop, Amazon, Best Buy, Wal-Mart, Target), it looks like only Best Buy and Amazon carry the Datel Max 2 GB memory card. Also, people have already posted reviews at both sites warning everyone that an update is coming that will make the product useless.

An odd review I saw over on Best Buy:

YOU WILL NEED A HARD DRIVE!! For some odd reason the xbox can’t see it without one. (http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=9466286&type=product&id=1218109501259)

I'd imagine one of the other products they're trying to lock out would be this:

http://www.amazon.com/Xploder-Cheat-Saves-Grand-Xbox-360/dp/B0019NLADS/ref=sr_1_11?ie=UTF8&s=videogames&qid=1255998225&sr=1-11

It allows you to download saves, back them up to your PC, etc. It looks like it goes into the memory card slot but I'm not too sure.

EDIT

According to Engadget, the Datel Max memory cards are the first third-party memory cards to hit the market [Engadget (http://www.engadget.com/2009/05/16/datel-gets-first-stab-at-third-party-memory-card-for-xbox-360-s/)]

I think the biggest problem Micrsoft has with these cards is the ability to download saves to be used on the 360. Perhaps there's a security flaw in there. Or they just don't want achievement whores to be pumping up their scores.

OldJadedGamer

10-19-2009, 06:58 PM

According to Engadget, the Datel Max memory cards are the first third-party memory cards to hit the market [Engadget (http://www.engadget.com/2009/05/16/datel-gets-first-stab-at-third-party-memory-card-for-xbox-360-s/)]

That's only in every city except for Gorvi's. Where he lives, they have been all over the place for 4 years now.

..but he bought a PS3 slim. ;)

...just giving you a hard time OJG. :D

Not only did I buy one PS3... I've bought 2 different PS3's. And a PSX/PS2/PSP. Sony loves the shit out of me.

To be fair, OJG doesn't vilify Sony as I've seen him give credit to them few times before. He does, however, seldom make a point without using Sony as some sort of justification for someone else doing fucked up shit. That's where the perception derives from I'd wager.

I always give praise where it belongs and I don't for things that don't deserve it. That's why I use my 360 but hate MS Windows. The reason I use Sony as reference is because they made the most popular home game system ever released. They were the king, they were the most successful and the most cocky with that success.

Think about it, if Sony makes the PS2 and sells 120 million units and charges $25 bucks for 8megs of memory... then how is this a bad business decision? Seems they are pretty smart to me. Why would I look down on MS for emulating Sony's successful business tactics?

I think the confusion here is being able to understand something while not agreeing with it. I understand MS's decisions... I don't agree with them but if I want to use the product then I have to accept them or move on to something else. That's my choice as a consumer and I'm not going to cry about it.

mightbe

10-19-2009, 07:19 PM

But the HD won't be under warranty. That's my point. Or any other device you buy second hand. Generally, if it wasn't registered properly and you don't have the receipt, you're SOL.

Refurbished drives come with a 90 day warranty IIRC. That's compared to budget 2.5" OEM drives who might go out as much as six months to a year. They're a similar price and both come with a warranty.

I don't see an incredible difference here. If you must have a functioning HDD, get multiple refurbs or used ones for the price of a first party one. Because if it dies, you lose your data either way.

Or just be smart about it and buy a refurb/used one and replace it if it craps out. I've not heard of any rashes of either really dying by the score. So you're probably safe as long as you treat it right.

violent

10-19-2009, 07:34 PM

I think the confusion here is being able to understand something while not agreeing with it. I understand MS's decisions... I don't agree with them but if I want to use the product then I have to accept them or move on to something else. That's my choice as a consumer and I'm not going to cry about it.

While I do believe that people are unable to sometimes differentiate between acceptance of differing opinions and being told their beliefs are wrong, some of us are genuinely beyond that argument. That said, I'm personally of the school of belief that a good point needs only to be explained. Trying to cater a point to those that require parallel example seems like a wasted effort. In this context, Microsoft's errors are their own to be ridiculed by. The same for Sony, Nintendo and every single person we ever speak to. I don't believe in validating the shitty act of one by pointing out a previous shitty act of another. It devalues the act itself.

I don't think you're doing anything wrong, let me just say that now. Just know that's where I come from when I appear to be giving you shit. I think you make a lot of valuable points but I also feel that a lot of them are lost to pattern. An unfair conclusion.

Slack3r78

10-19-2009, 07:53 PM

That's compared to budget 2.5" OEM drives who might go out as much as six months to a year.
Who are you buying HDDs from? WD, Seagate, Samsung, Hitachi, and Fujitsu all warrant their 2.5" drives for 3 years.

mightbe

10-19-2009, 09:03 PM

bapenguin

10-19-2009, 09:26 PM

I was under the impression that OEM drives usually only carry a 6mo-1yr warranty as those were the ones that I was comparing that were of similar price to the secondary market xbox HDDs. I've been wrong plenty of times though.

I still maintain that while having a warranty on a 60$ hdd would be nice, it's not a deal killer for me.

Correct, the idea with an "OEM" product is the person that is selling the hardware sells you the warranty with it. That's how you can offer those products cheaper, there's no retail warranty attached.

MagGnome

10-19-2009, 11:24 PM

Stay classy Microsoft!

Wouldn't it be great is Microsoft controlled the entire gaming market?

Is that what some posters on this very site have argued for?

OldJadedGamer

10-20-2009, 01:39 AM

Stay classy Microsoft!

Wouldn't it be great is Microsoft controlled the entire gaming market?

Is that what some posters on this very site have argued for?

PC gamers don't mind that they control the entire OS market.

Savok

10-20-2009, 01:48 AM

I think you forgot to put that in plum.

Kelegacy

10-20-2009, 05:19 AM

PC gamers don't mind that they control the entire OS market.

I think they do but there is really no other choice--they have a virtual monopoly in the PC gaming market. That's exactly what console gamers should want to avoid at all costs. Microsoft has so mucy power they launched that Games for Windows plan that doesn't allow me to play certain games in my XP OS...I have to have Vista to play Halo 2. WTF.

At least, that's the last I heard about this. If things changed and allow you to play those games on XP, I wasn't paying attention.

Slack3r78

10-20-2009, 08:28 AM

Correct, the idea with an "OEM" product is the person that is selling the hardware sells you the warranty with it. That's how you can offer those products cheaper, there's no retail warranty attached.

Er, not quite how it works with the HDD market. OEM drives carrying no warranty are what you get in Dells and HPs, etc. Essentially, the manufacturer sells the drives to the PC builder at a lower price in exchange for the builder taking on responsibility for warranting the drive. This is why if you pull a dead HDD out of a Dell, you have to warranty exchange it through Dell and not, say, Seagate.

The 'OEM' bare drives you buy from Newegg carry manufacturer warranties. All the major manufacturers have 3 year warranties on their 2.5" drives.

In fact, I know that Western Digital at least offered shorter warranties on their retail box products than their bare drives in the past. The drives you could pick up at Best Buy were boxed, more expensive, and carried only a one year warranty, whereas the drives you buy through distribution were still carrying three year warranties.

Not up on what everybody's doing with the retail channel these days since I never buy through the retail channel. The vast majority of my buying is from wholesale distributors.

bapenguin

10-20-2009, 08:40 AM

Er, not quite how it works with the HDD market. OEM drives carrying no warranty are what you get in Dells and HPs, etc. Essentially, the manufacturer sells the drives to the PC builder at a lower price in exchange for the builder taking on responsibility for warranting the drive. This is why if you pull a dead HDD out of a Dell, you have to warranty exchange it through Dell and not, say, Seagate.

The 'OEM' bare drives you buy from Newegg carry manufacturer warranties. All the major manufacturers have 3 year warranties on their 2.5" drives.

In fact, I know that Western Digital at least offered shorter warranties on their retail box products than their bare drives in the past. The drives you could pick up at Best Buy were boxed, more expensive, and carried only a one year warranty, whereas the drives you buy through distribution were still carrying three year warranties.

Not up on what everybody's doing with the retail channel these days since I never buy through the retail channel. The vast majority of my buying is from wholesale distributors.

Interesting. Newegg must have a special agreements with them as the OEM. My definition was more in the traditional sense. Newegg is probably buying more HD's in bulk from these companies than the PC makers are anyway.

Slack3r78

10-20-2009, 08:51 AM

Interesting. Newegg must have a special agreements with them as the OEM. My definition was more in the traditional sense. Newegg is probably buying more HD's in bulk from these companies than the PC makers are anyway.

I just used Newegg as an example since they're somebody most people are familiar with. This is the case with ASI, MA Labs, Tech Data, any of the major wholesale distributors as well. You pretty much have to go directly to the drive manufacturer to buy an unwarranted drive.

EDIT:

Just as another example:

http://www.amazon.com/Western-Digital-Scorpio-Notebook-WD2500BEVT/dp/B001IKRKO0/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1256050483&sr=8-1

OEM/bulk drive, 3 year warranty via the manufacturer.

Cit Phil Cit

10-20-2009, 12:47 PM

PC gamers don't mind that they control the entire OS market.

If you are going to troll so obviously, please do it with gusto. Normally I would let something like this go, considering the time of morning; but it is late in the thread to do something like this, so poorly.

1/5.

violent

10-20-2009, 12:57 PM

If you are going to troll so obviously, please do it with gusto. Normally I would let something like this go, considering the time of morning; but it is late in the thread to do something like this, so poorly.

1/5.

PC gamers aren't elitist, we're just better.

That's how you do it.

tacitus

10-21-2009, 12:26 PM

I have question on backing up saved games from the 360 as a fairly recent owner. I am currently using one of the unauthorized datel memcard to transfer data to my PC and it stores it quite nicely in different backups. How can this be done only using authorized products?

This is important because many devs don't give a shit about corrupt save games and only allow one save game slot, which when it becomes corrupted you are totally hosed and must start over. This has happened to me already once - assassins creed. Every time I have tried to google info on the above issue I tend to get microsoft's moronic data transfer or how to hack your 360 and nothing useful.