[Rumor] AMD Making Next Xbox GPUs; nVidia Making Next DS CPUs

[DoctorFinger]

A pair of rumors today which indicate that while few gamers are thinking about the next generation of hardware, the companies which manage them certainly are looking forward.

The first piece concerns the next iteration of Microsoft's Xbox hardware. A source for tech site Fudzilla (http://www.fudzilla.com/content/view/15936/1/) claims that AMD has once again been selected to provide the GPUs for the 360's successor. The 360 runs a Xenos GPU, built by ATI, which was acquired by AMD several years ago. The 360 CPU is built by IBM, but the designs for both the CPU and GPU are owned by Microsoft, so the contract for the CPUs can go to another chip maker and still be compatible with the current software and accessories, an issue which plagued the Xbox to 360 transition. The report also pegs the release of the new hardware as coming in 2012, a date in line with a host of other rumors and reports.

Next up in the rumor mill is Nintendo. BSN (http://www.brightsideofnews.com/news/2009/10/13/nvidia-tegra-wins-contract-for-next-gen-nintendo-ds.aspx) reports that nVidia's popular Tegra processor - which is the brains of the new Zune HD - will be the heart for the successor to Nintendo's DS hardware. This is a shift, as Nintendo has been using chips from IBM and ATI/AMD for years now. This new chip would be a single processor solution, and should also be backwards compatible with existing DS products. The report also says that Nintendo plans to launch the all new DS in late 2010, which comes very soon on the heels of the DSi hardware which launched in Japan last year and in the US and EU this past April.

Sources - (Xbox) Fudzilla (http://www.fudzilla.com/content/view/15936/1/); Edge Online (http://www.next-gen.biz/news/has-amd-already-won-next-gen-xbox-deal). (DS) BSN (http://www.brightsideofnews.com/news/2009/10/13/nvidia-tegra-wins-contract-for-next-gen-nintendo-ds.aspx); Gamesindustry (http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/new-ds-slated-for-late-2010-release).

[Mike Kelehan]

If Nintendo releases a new DS that soon, they'd better figure out how I can transfer my downloaded DSiWare games.

[Gorvi]

If Nintendo releases a new DS that soon, they'd better figure out how I can transfer my downloaded DSiWare games.
Considering you can't even transfer them to a new DSi if yours breaks (without sending it in to them, and even then it's iffy) I'd be shocked if you could.

[rein]

I kind of hope the next version of the DS coming in 2010 is true. For one, I am ready for a next gen porrtable. I also hope the portable hardware releases do not compete with the rumored 2012 releases of the next gen consoles.

[ElektroDragon]

I think 2012 is too early. Then again, looking at Uncharted 2, I can see the desire to upgrade the 360 hardware. Either that or Naughty Dog are just beyond talented. I don't know how Uncharted 2 does what it does with a weaker GPU.

[Mike Kelehan]

Considering you can't even transfer them to a new DSi if yours breaks (without sending it in to them, and even then it's iffy) I'd be shocked if you could.

It's not a big deal now, but it will be. I can see them releasing a rights transfer option in the firmware, like there is now for transferring network settings one-way between systems.

Then again, looking at Uncharted 2, I can see the desire to upgrade the 360 hardware. Either that or Naughty Dog are just beyond talented. I don't know how Uncharted 2 does what it does with a weaker GPU.

Based on Naughty Dog's track record, I think that's what it is.

[Dukefrukem]

Isn't this Ati rumor from a few days ago?

[Purple Santa]

I kind of hope the next version of the DS coming in 2010 is true. For one, I am ready for a next gen porrtable. I also hope the portable hardware releases do not compete with the rumored 2012 releases of the next gen consoles.

I have a DSi and i'm still looking for the next version of the DS. I love my DS, and can't wait to see (hopefully) how they improve upon it. Besides, i'm a handheld whore. They are like Pokemon to me...gotta collect them all :o

Seems MS might be sensitive to the BC debate. I don't know if that is why that might be the only reason to use the same chipmakers, but i'll dream they do understand there is some importance to BC. I believe non-hard core purchasers of future consoles do care about if the new console they are buying will play previous generation games.

[Zanzibar]

Seems MS might be sensitive to the BC debate. I don't know if that is why that might be the only reason to use the same chipmakers, but i'll dream they do understand there is some importance to BC. I believe non-hard core purchasers of future consoles do care about if the new console they are buying will play previous generation games.

I think they learned their lesson from the original Xbox. They got raked over the coals publicly for their limited BC, although from what I know about what it takes to get the BC titles working and tested thoroughly, it's surprising to me they got as many titles as they did. The graphical architecture between the Xbox and the X360 is startlingly different.

[DoctorFinger]

They touted the original Xbox as being built with "off the shelf" components, and that ended up biting them in the ass when they realized they didn't own the architecture on their chips..

[Yeti2005]

They touted the original Xbox as being built with "off the shelf" components, and that ended up biting them in the ass when they realized they didn't own the architecture on their chips..

Yep, that's why the Xbox 1 died such a sudden death. I'd put money on the fact the next Xbox will use ATI, will be backward compatable with the 360, and will co-exist with the 360 like the PS2 and PS3 crossover.

Anyone want to guess how much memory the next gen will have? Double the current with 512 video and 512 RAM (or 1024 shared) or do you think they'd boost it to 2 GB shared?

[DoctorFinger]

I'm really curious to see how Sony and Microsoft handle downloadable content with their next systems. I know I have about $200 worth of DLC - games and add-ons - on my 360 and if I can't transfer them wholesale to the next Xbox, I'll be might pissed.

[Cyndair]

I'm sure I'll be in on the next DS (damn you Nintendo). Actually looking forward to it. I'll probably curb buying any DSiWare until I hear about how they are going to handle transferring your purchases (if at all).

[J Arcane]

I kind of hope the next version of the DS coming in 2010 is true. For one, I am ready for a next gen porrtable. I also hope the portable hardware releases do not compete with the rumored 2012 releases of the next gen consoles.
It's called a PSP, and it's been on the shelves for a while now.

[Stoke]

2012 would make me happy for the next generation. It's far enough away from the start of the current generation that I don't feel they're just rushing something out the door again. I'd also be happy with another portable from Nintendo soon. I just hope it has enough power to do decent 3D visuals so I don't want to poke my eyes out every time I play something.

[Gorvi]

2012 would make me happy for the next generation. It's far enough away from the start of the current generation that I don't feel they're just rushing something out the door again. I'd also be happy with another portable from Nintendo soon. I just hope it has enough power to do decent 3D visuals so I don't want to poke my eyes out every time I play something.
I'd take 2011 for new handhelds, early 2013 for new home consoles. I'm still more than happy with what we're seeing this generation, I have no urge to upgrade at this point at all.

[Karak]

2012 would make me happy for the next generation. It's far enough away from the start of the current generation that I don't feel they're just rushing something out the door again. I'd also be happy with another portable from Nintendo soon. I just hope it has enough power to do decent 3D visuals so I don't want to poke my eyes out every time I play something.

Ya 2012, would be ok with me as well. Perhaps a bit early as I feel my 360 is still offering insane games, improving graphics and features(especially with each dashboard update). But I would be ok with that.

[Yeti2005]

I'm really curious to see how Sony and Microsoft handle downloadable content with their next systems. I know I have about $200 worth of DLC - games and add-ons - on my 360 and if I can't transfer them wholesale to the next Xbox, I'll be might pissed.

I don't see why there would be a technical hurdle for them to allow you to port over your DLC to a next gen console. Doesn't Sony have a limit on the number of re-downloads though? Maybe that's only for movies and shows.

[Purple Santa]

I'd take 2011 for new handhelds, early 2013 for new home consoles. I'm still more than happy with what we're seeing this generation, I have no urge to upgrade at this point at all.

Well if they come out in 2012 you could always wait to buy one in 2013 :D

[Gorvi]

I don't see why there would be a technical hurdle for them to allow you to port over your DLC to a next gen console. Doesn't Sony have a limit on the number of re-downloads though? Maybe that's only for movies and shows.
Only for movies, which they really need to fix. For games you can have up to 5 consoles authorized at one time, if you want more you have to deauthorize one of those 5.
Well if they come out in 2012 you could always wait to buy one in 2013 :D
Yeah, like that's going to happen. ;)

[total]

Doesn't Sony have a limit on the number of re-downloads though? Maybe that's only for movies and shows.

Not on games. Couldn't tell you for movies.

[Zanzibar]

Yep, that's why the Xbox 1 died such a sudden death. I'd put money on the fact the next Xbox will use ATI, will be backward compatable with the 360, and will co-exist with the 360 like the PS2 and PS3 crossover.

Anyone want to guess how much memory the next gen will have? Double the current with 512 video and 512 RAM (or 1024 shared) or do you think they'd boost it to 2 GB shared?

I'm thinking 2gb shared, with the outside possibility of 3gb shared.

[nixpayn]

I'd love to see Tegra on a DS.

[Cit Phil Cit]

They'll be like IPhones so that can charge you up the wazoo with $60 a month subscription fees, but can be used for phone, media, email and web.

And you can even game with it too. For an extra charge.

[Yeti2005]

I'm thinking 2gb shared, with the outside possibility of 3gb shared.

3GB would be ridiculously awesome. I think I want backward compatibility with my controllers although that will probably never happen because of the amount of money they make on peripherals.

[Zanzibar]

3GB would be ridiculously awesome. I think I want backward compatibility with my controllers although that will probably never happen because of the amount of money they make on peripherals.

Holy crap, I never thought of that. Hell, I think they'd HAVE to allow BC for controllers, particularly for the Rock Band/GH crowd.

[Mike Kelehan]

Anyone want to guess how much memory the next gen will have? Double the current with 512 video and 512 RAM (or 1024 shared) or do you think they'd boost it to 2 GB shared?

The PS1 had 2MB main, 1MB video. The PS2 had 32MB RAM, 4MB video. The PS3 has 256MB RAM, 256MB video. Those are some dramatic leaps. I doubt we'll only see them double in the next round.

[Zanzibar]

The PS1 had 2MB main, 1MB video. The PS2 had 32MB RAM, 4MB video. The PS3 has 256MB RAM, 256MB video. Those are some dramatic leaps. I doubt we'll only see them double in the next round.
The REAL question is what physical distribution method will they use. They've gotta retire DVD at some point, and using Blu-ray means MS will have to pay Sony for every X720 sold, plus all the royalties Sony gets for Blu-ray movies.

Hell, with the way flash memory seems to be doubling capacity every few months, it'd almost be worth it to see X720 games on 64gb proprietary flash ROMs.

[DoctorFinger]

The REAL question is what physical distribution method will they use. They've gotta retire DVD at some point, and using Blu-ray means MS will have to pay Sony for every X720 sold, plus all the royalties Sony gets for Blu-ray movies.

Hell, with the way flash memory seems to be doubling capacity every few months, it'd almost be worth it to see X720 games on 64gb proprietary flash ROMs.They already pay Sony - as a part of the DVD consortium - for the use of DVD video on the 360 (thank god they didn't go the "dongle" route again this time), so I doubt that would be an issue with the Blu-Ray.

[Mike Kelehan]

The REAL question is what physical distribution method will they use. They've gotta retire DVD at some point, and using Blu-ray means MS will have to pay Sony for every X720 sold, plus all the royalties Sony gets for Blu-ray movies.

Hell, with the way flash memory seems to be doubling capacity every few months, it'd almost be worth it to see X720 games on 64gb proprietary flash ROMs.

I think we can still get by with DVDs. If a game must be more than 9GB, it can just have additional installation discs, and the one play disc. This is definitely the last generation when they can get away with selling a model with no hard drive.

The next gen, IMO, will be built from the ground up for digital distribution. DVDs will just be another way to get that data onto your hard drive.

[Disgustipated]

The next Xbox will probably have 1 GB of dedicated VRAM and 2 GB of system memory. Although 3 GB shared raises an interesting possibility, especially for devs that don't want/need 1 GB of dedicated VRAM and would rather have a ton of system RAM for caching etc. If they went the 100% shared route, I'd expect 3-4 GB, which alone would make the texture detail and size of the worlds orders of magnitude better than what we've got now.

[Expugnare]

I would put my money at 1GB DDR5 VRAM and 2GB DDR3 system RAM. As for physical media, 16GB flash cards would be really cool to see but I think Microsoft will either suck it up and pay Sony for Blu Ray use or continue with DVDs which might hurt them later on.

But I think that this gen has a lot more left in it really and developers are only starting to touch on what these systems can really do. The next few years will be really interesting.

[Chris_D]

It's important to note that this gen MS had full ownership of the design of the CPU and GPU in the 360. So, even if they'd had a falling out with IBM/AMD the option would have existed for another company to continue to work on extending the existing CPU/GPU, or at least use that tech to ensure BC in the new CPU/GPU. However, being able to retain the services of the same company, AMD in this case, makes the process a lot smoother and I'm sure is cheaper than trying to find another company to pick up the ball.

[Chris_D]

If there's one thing the DS needs, it's more 3D grunt. DS 3D graphics are often frightfully ugly.

[Xerxes]

I wonder if they'll contract AMD to do both the CPU and GPU. Unified chip would be desired, although probably wouldn't be cheap out right.

[Disgustipated]

I wonder if they'll contract AMD to do both the CPU and GPU. Unified chip would be desired, although probably wouldn't be cheap out right.

I wouldn't be surprised to see an AMD-based CPU. Even though the 360 is IBM PowerPC-based, it'd be easy to keep compatibility.

And since the 360 CPU is a tri-core, expect the Xbox 3 to have a quad-core or better. A 6 core CPU isn't out of the realm of possibility, and with AMD's pricing, wouldn't break the bank for Microsoft, although a quad-core is more likely.

[Chris_D]

I wonder if they'll contract AMD to do both the CPU and GPU. Unified chip would be desired, although probably wouldn't be cheap out right.

There's no reason not to stick with IBM if their satisfied with the work they did. The 360 CPU/GPU already had unified memory so it's not like the two companies aren't capable of working together to have a well integrated design.

[Xerxes]

There's no reason not to stick with IBM if their satisfied with the work they did. The 360 CPU/GPU already had unified memory so it's not like the two companies aren't capable of working together to have a well integrated design.

Well I believe on the Jasper the CPU and GPU are now one. So it's definitely doable. I'm just wonder though, couldn't AMD give you a better deal if they made both in house.

[Chris_D]

Well I believe on the Jasper the CPU and GPU are now one. So it's definitely doable. I'm just wonder though, couldn't AMD give you a better deal if they made both in house.

Well, in theory, IBM has the existing in house experience with the 360's CPU. So AMD would have to develop that themselves from scratch (since I don't think the 360 and AMD x86 CPUs are that similar). Assuming the working relationship between IBM and AMD is good then I can't see the need to go entirely AMD.

[jeffbax]

I wouldn't be surprised to see an AMD-based CPU. Even though the 360 is IBM PowerPC-based, it'd be easy to keep compatibility.
I'm pretty sure that the 360 has proven that compatibility between an x86 CPU and PPC is anything but "easy".

It's also unlikely that AMD's complex CPU's can meet the price points that IBM's simpler designs can, and as far as I'm aware, AMD doesn't fab their CPUs either - IBM has a huge stake in AMD's fabrication.

[PathMaster]

It would be interesting if Microsoft opened up the hardware configuration to some public opinion, or even an open forum where people could make cogent suggestions.

[Disgustipated]

I'm pretty sure that the 360 has proven that compatibility between an x86 CPU and PPC is anything but "easy".

It's also unlikely that AMD's complex CPU's can meet the price points that IBM's simpler designs can, and as far as I'm aware, AMD doesn't fab their CPUs either - IBM has a huge stake in AMD's fabrication.

Yeah, I know IBM's got simpler CPU's, but these specialized CPU's have held back consoles for a while now. It'd be incredibly interesting to see Microsoft try what they did with the Xbox 1 CPU again, and base it on a fully fledged desktop component.

And I wonder if you're right about the compatibility, or if Microsoft could develop an elegant situation for backwards compatibility being relatively painless.

Maybe even have the CPU onboard (ala PS3 early models) from the 360 and have the Xbox 3's GPU do all the graphics work and upscaling? The 360 CPU will be dirt cheap to manufacture by the time Microsoft is ready to put the Xbox 3 to market.

But that might be more of a pain than either emulating PPC->x86 or going with PPC like you suggested. Interesting to theorize about, though.

[mister slim]

Nintendo actually uses ARM chips for their handhelds. If this rumor is true, this will be their first handheld with a graphics processor anyway.

Anyone want to guess how much memory the next gen will have? Double the current with 512 video and 512 RAM (or 1024 shared) or do you think they'd boost it to 2 GB shared?
I'm guessing 4GB. The PS1/N64 gen was 3-4MB, PS2/Xbox was 32-64MB, and now we're at 512MB.

[Xerxes]

Yeah, I know IBM's got simpler CPU's, but these specialized CPU's have held back consoles for a while now. It'd be incredibly interesting to see Microsoft try what they did with the Xbox 1 CPU again, and base it on a fully fledged desktop component.

And I wonder if you're right about the compatibility, or if Microsoft could develop an elegant situation for backwards compatibility being relatively painless.

Maybe even have the CPU onboard (ala PS3 early models) from the 360 and have the Xbox 3's GPU do all the graphics work and upscaling? The 360 CPU will be dirt cheap to manufacture by the time Microsoft is ready to put the Xbox 3 to market.

But that might be more of a pain than either emulating PPC->x86 or going with PPC like you suggested. Interesting to theorize about, though.

While reading your post, I was wondering if they stuck Valhalla (360 with GPU and CPU on single die) in the next system, could it work with the new GPU and CPU; But I guess that's always possible but would be dependent all in the designs. Not sure if it would be beneficial for next gen games, or slowing down all the new stuff.

Also for Yeti's question, I'm thinking 3GB unified (cause consoles love their unified memory). And since that's optimistic and something we'd want, it'll probably be 2GB. Make devs work harder.

[Chris_D]

I was going to say 2GB, but then I remembered it was 2012, so 4GB seems likely. I imagine PCs will be shipping with 8-16 by then.

[Xerxes]

I was going to say 2GB, but then I remembered it was 2012, so 4GB seems likely. I imagine PCs will be shipping with 8-16 by then.

But they love to starve the machines. I mean they could of did way more than 512 this gen.

[Disgustipated]

But they love to starve the machines. I mean they could of did way more than 512 this gen.

We're lucky we got 512 MB on the 360 this gen. Epic claims they had to push Microsoft to do it.

[Karak]

I also find it weird this matters. This is the 5th such rumor in the last year about it. Is the source, why this one matters more than the other ones?

[Xerxes]

We're lucky we got 512 MB on the 360 this gen. Epic claims they had to push Microsoft to do it.

Exactly. They can give us 4GB in 2012. But they'll probably eek by with 2GB. I think 3GB would be suitable. I'd probably be on the side of 2GB isn't enough.

<rabble rabble rabble>

[Yeti2005]

The REAL question is what physical distribution method will they use. They've gotta retire DVD at some point, and using Blu-ray means MS will have to pay Sony for every X720 sold, plus all the royalties Sony gets for Blu-ray movies.

Hell, with the way flash memory seems to be doubling capacity every few months, it'd almost be worth it to see X720 games on 64gb proprietary flash ROMs.

I think they should keep the removable hard drives and you could either

a.) download everything to your hard drive (pre-load like Steam)
or
b.) Go to a store with your hard drive, plug it into a machine (kiosk) and transfer a game over.

Retail is still kept in the loop. You're covered if you don't have broadband. Games would never be sold out. The only downside would be for people who get their games by mail because they don't live near any stores AND they don't have broadband. Also the used game market would disappear.

What will really happen is the Xbox 720 will have a blu-ray drive.

[jeffbax]

Yeah, I know IBM's got simpler CPU's, but these specialized CPU's have held back consoles for a while now. It'd be incredibly interesting to see Microsoft try what they did with the Xbox 1 CPU again, and base it on a fully fledged desktop component.

And I wonder if you're right about the compatibility, or if Microsoft could develop an elegant situation for backwards compatibility being relatively painless.

Maybe even have the CPU onboard (ala PS3 early models) from the 360 and have the Xbox 3's GPU do all the graphics work and upscaling? The 360 CPU will be dirt cheap to manufacture by the time Microsoft is ready to put the Xbox 3 to market.

But that might be more of a pain than either emulating PPC->x86 or going with PPC like you suggested. Interesting to theorize about, though.

If Microsoft had mandated all developers work with frameworks in managed C#, then migrating to a new architecture could have been relatively easy.

When Apple Migrated from PowerPC to x86, developers who were using the most standard of the platform's development libraries, with a few bug fixes here and there, could literally recompile to the new architecture with few issues.

The problem with consoles is that this isn't very realistic - many of the performance tweaks require to to ignore these guidelines. I think it is likely to see XBLA games translate over pretty easy, and many 360 games probably can too considering the ease in porting from PC to 360 and vice versa...

As for including an older CPU or dual CPU/GPU for BC... I think Sony proved this isn't worth it. Not enough people give a shit about BC to make this worth it. It'll be interesting to see what happens to our rockband songs though... which aren't really tied to a platform other than the game interpreter.

It'll be interesting to see the next gen. My gut says Blu-Ray standard, and 2 GB ram. Considering what we can do this gen with 512 MB.. I'm curious if a standard 1080p across all games will require that much more. I imagine it also depends on how long the 360 will go for, considering both are saying they want to hold out till like 2011 and 2012.

[PathMaster]

I think they should keep the removable hard drives and you could either

a.) download everything to your hard drive (pre-load like Steam)
or
b.) Go to a store with your hard drive, plug it into a machine (kiosk) and transfer a game over.

Retail is still kept in the loop. You're covered if you don't have broadband. Games would never be sold out. The only downside would be for people who get their games by mail because they don't live near any stores AND they don't have broadband. Also the used game market would disappear.

What will really happen is the Xbox 720 will have a blu-ray drive.

I like that idea. Maybe some form of disposable media(yeah right) or perhaps a reusable flash media, which uses a code on both ends to authenticate.

[Xerxes]

If Microsoft had mandated all developers work with frameworks in managed C#, then migrating to a new architecture could have been relatively easy.

When Apple Migrated from PowerPC to x86, developers who were using the most standard of the platform's development libraries, with a few bug fixes here and there, could literally recompile to the new architecture with few issues.

The problem with consoles is that this isn't very realistic - many of the performance tweaks require to to ignore these guidelines. I think it is likely to see XBLA games translate over pretty easy, and many 360 games probably can too considering the ease in porting from PC to 360 and vice versa...

As for including an older CPU or dual CPU/GPU for BC... I think Sony proved this isn't worth it. Not enough people give a shit about BC to make this worth it. It'll be interesting to see what happens to our rockband songs though... which aren't really tied to a platform other than the game interpreter.

It'll be interesting to see the next gen. My gut says Blu-Ray standard, and 2 GB ram. Considering what we can do this gen with 512 MB.. I'm curious if a standard 1080p across all games will require that much more. I imagine it also depends on how long the 360 will go for, considering both are saying they want to hold out till like 2011 and 2012.

With Valhalla, the CPU and GPU will be on one die. So it's kind of like the emotion engine situation. I don't believe Sony proved anything aside that Bluray means more to them than BC. I believe people care or people wouldn't still be talking about it.

Blu-ray is cheaper so they'll either go that route or have to do something more radical. More space for the next gen is a gimme.