The Warp freezes over: WAR on a MacBook

[J Arcane]

It seems that during my recent absence from the Web, Apple has apparently released new Macbooks. I had heard rumors of their impending arrival but was largely too distracted and disenfranchised to care.

Until I saw this: http://www.tuaw.com/2008/10/16/putting-the-macbook-through-the-paces-with-warhammer-online/

It seems Apple has finally put a half-decent graphics chip in the MacBook, one capable of running WAR at nearly max detail. It's still only a 9400m, so I wouldn't go plopping Crysis on it or anything, but it would be interesting to see some further tests with other games. Apple may've finally managed to put out a lower end machine that doesn't blow dog's bollocks for gaming.

I also found the new graphics system on the Pro rather clever. They've put both the 9400m integrated chip, and a 9600m GT dedicated chip on the board, and the system switches back and forth based on needed horsepower to conserve battery.

[biosc1]

I also found the new graphics system on the Pro rather clever. They've put both the 9400m integrated chip, and a 9600m GT dedicated chip on the board, and the system switches back and forth based on needed horsepower to conserve battery.

That is really quite a nice idea.

This new laptop is just what I need in my master plan to get my girlfriend to move from Bubble Bobble and the Sims to something more intense...she wants a Mac...I'll get her a Mac...a Mac that can play games ;)

[Jackel]

It seems that during my recent absence from the Web, Apple has apparently released new Macbooks. I had heard rumors of their impending arrival but was largely too distracted and disenfranchised to care.

Until I saw this: http://www.tuaw.com/2008/10/16/putting-the-macbook-through-the-paces-with-warhammer-online/

It seems Apple has finally put a half-decent graphics chip in the MacBook, one capable of running WAR at nearly max detail. It's still only a 9400m, so I wouldn't go plopping Crysis on it or anything, but it would be interesting to see some further tests with other games. Apple may've finally managed to put out a lower end machine that doesn't blow dog's bollocks for gaming.

I also found the new graphics system on the Pro rather clever. They've put both the 9400m integrated chip, and a 9600m GT dedicated chip on the board, and the system switches back and forth based on needed horsepower to conserve battery.

I believe that Asus has been doing that on a few of there bare bones models for a while now. I remember 2 years back during my laptop search they had an Intel integrated in addition to an ATI X1600 for gaming.

[Cit Phil Cit]

The real question you have to ask youself is -if you want to game on a Macbook are you prepared for the uninterested technical response: running Windows through Mac Hardware via emulation/serials/boot camp is not the same as running it on natively supported hardware: as such, we cannot guarantee your game will work.

Gaming on laptop video devices is already a gamble, tossing the OS into the mix is not my cup of tea.

[J Arcane]

The real question you have to ask youself is -if you want to game on a Macbook are you prepared for the uninterested technical response: running Windows through Mac Hardware via emulation/serials/boot camp is not the same as running it on natively supported hardware: as such, we cannot guarantee your game will work.

Gaming on laptop video devices is already a gamble, tossing the OS into the mix is not my cup of tea.
Umm, running in Boot Camp is exactly like running on native hardware, because it IS native hardware.

You're forgetting these things are still basically just PCs with a chip in them that lets them run OS X without a crack.

Wine and the like, sure, they suck, but running in Boot Camp is as good as any other PC, because it is any other PC.

[Hotcod]

Umm, running in Boot Camp is exactly like running on native hardware, because it IS native hardware.

You're forgetting these things are still basically just PCs with a chip in them that lets them run OS X without a crack.

Wine and the like, sure, they suck, but running in Boot Camp is as good as any other PC, because it is any other PC.

Given it is just any other PC why not take the, at the very lest, few hundred you are throwing down the drain for the Mac name and OS X and get a far far far better speced laptop? :P

Sorry, i was having this conversation with some people in uni today... for about the billionth time... i'm a design student and the blind mac love is in full force, encouraged by the tutors for no reason i've ever gotten out of them other than the fact it's what they where told to use heh

I was explaining why i got my dell laptop instead of a mac... given that the equivalent mac was over £1000 more it wasn't a hard choice... that and the fact i happen to dislike OS X heh i'm all for personal preference but the price difference is utterly stupid give how long laptops tend to last.

[itchyeyes]

I was explaining why i got my dell laptop instead of a mac... given that the equivalent mac was over £1000 more it wasn't a hard choice... that and the fact i happen to dislike OS X heh i'm all for personal preference but the price difference is utterly stupid give how long laptops tend to last.
It depends on what you're looking for. Anyone who's ever bought a notebook with the actual intent of carrying it around with them knows that lightweight and durability add quite a bit of value. For me, the new 13.3" MacBook is essentially the notebook I've been waiting for for the last 8 years (thin & light, metal case, decent video card, widescreen monitor).

[J Arcane]

It depends on what you're looking for. Anyone who's ever bought a notebook with the actual intent of carrying it around with them knows that lightweight and durability add quite a bit of value. For me, the new 13.3" MacBook is essentially the notebook I've been waiting for for the last 8 years (thin & light, metal case, decent video card, widescreen monitor).
Apple's laptops also have the best damn battery life I've ever seen. That alone is a massive selling point to me, as the whole bloody point of a laptop to me is being untethered by a bunch of damn wires.

[jeffbax]

Given it is just any other PC why not take the, at the very lest, few hundred you are throwing down the drain for the Mac name and OS X and get a far far far better speced laptop? :P

Sorry, i was having this conversation with some people in uni today... for about the billionth time... i'm a design student and the blind mac love is in full force, encouraged by the tutors for no reason i've ever gotten out of them other than the fact it's what they where told to use heh

I was explaining why i got my dell laptop instead of a mac... given that the equivalent mac was over £1000 more it wasn't a hard choice... that and the fact i happen to dislike OS X heh i'm all for personal preference but the price difference is utterly stupid give how long laptops tend to last.
Mac love is hardly blind, especially for design students. Color calibration is much more flexible in OSX, and most creative types prefer the document-centric interface of OSX over the application-centric interface of Windows.

Similarly, people buy Macs because they find the computing experience worth the price, regardless of whether or not you can get similar specs in a vastly different chasis itself. Its simply illogical to disregard the value in attention to detail. You can probably buy or build a Corolla that drives as fast as a BMW but its still not a BMW.

Similarly, there is nothing emulated about Bootcamp. Its dual booting Windows on a Mac just like you would dual boot Linux on a regular PC.

[Hotcod]

It depends on what you're looking for. Anyone who's ever bought a notebook with the actual intent of carrying it around with them knows that lightweight and durability add quite a bit of value. For me, the new 13.3" MacBook is essentially the notebook I've been waiting for for the last 8 years (thin & light, metal case, decent video card, widescreen monitor).

The equivalent mac is the same size and weight for the most part and i made a choice about that at the start... given i was going to be using it either at home or in uni it was just a case of carrying it around and i'd easily take the extra screen retail space for something a bit more weighty anyday. Which is why i can't understand the people who, in design at lest, prefer to spend more on a small screen mac beacuse they are told they should rather than looking at options.

Now don't get me wrong the new mac books are looking good i was just letting of steam about the unthinkness (to make up a word) of mac use in by design students and the like... i don't care if people buy a mac based on there own good reason and there like of os x i'm happy but ya it was just in terms of this thread if your thinking of buying a mac it honestly pays to have a good look around for what else you can get for your money.

Apple's laptops also have the best damn battery life I've ever seen. That alone is a massive selling point to me, as the whole bloody point of a laptop to me is being untethered by a bunch of damn wires.

I saved my self some money on this laptop for going for a lower batty life... but that's beacuse i know the vast majority of it use will be either here at my desk at home... or at a desk in uni... there's always a power socket somewhere... the same is true of almost every one else on my course. heh... it's just again that no one at uni is buying a mac beacuse it has a fantastic battery life or its the lightest they could get... they don't even look... and that's what really gets to me.

Mac love is hardly blind, especially for design students. Color calibration is much more flexible in OSX, and most creative types prefer the document-centric interface of OSX over the application-centric interface of Windows.

Similarly, people buy Macs because they find the computing experience worth the price, regardless of whether or not you can get similar specs in a vastly different chasis itself. Its simply illogical to disregard the value in attention to detail. You can probably buy or build a Corolla that drives as fast as a BMW but its still not a BMW.

Similarly, there is nothing emulated about Bootcamp. Its dual booting Windows on a Mac just like you would dual boot Linux on a regular PC.

90% of the design students i know still don't really understand colour calibration let alone get why macs are more fixable with it... i mean i've personally not had a problem getting windows to do what i need to do but i do understand there are times that a mac can be better for that... but it's still not worth an extra grand.

I'm a creative type, lots of my freinds are creative types... it has no effect on if we prefer using windows to OSX. In fact what i've always seen (i've done the uni thing twice now) is that the vast majority of new students come in, get told to us a mac, spend the first year getting used to it thinking that they have to beacuse it's what ever one uses... the number of people who actually prefer using OSX is about the same as with any group of people. They are just told macs are the standard and cool and so on. Even if i did prefer osx a grand for it? i'd still have brought this laptop.

As for attention to detail, if by that you mean looking prudy... then yes... but i've seen just as many problems and broken notebooks be macs as anything else over the years and they have around the same lifespan as any other responsible made thing. Again i'd say that macs are probably a little better made than most notebooks but it's still, for me, no nearly a grands worth.

Nothing the mac dose or is is worth paying an extra grand for. The fact that i know people who will spend that money or get a mac that is less well suited to them than say a dell might have been not beacuse of colour correction or beacuse they honestly prefer osx or for any other reason. Well other than they are design students who have been told they should get a mac and think that macs are cool.

In other words the mac love i've seen in students and even tutors has been amazingly blind and instilled for a few tiny reasons and the fact that macs look nice. I've got nothing against any one who with the same needs as i had for a laptop would have with informed choice decided to paying an extra grand for the same speced mac beacuse to them it was worth it... it's just that in the design word, or more so with design students... people like that are very rear... honestly until you've spent as many years around design students as i have you really don't get just how many students just use macs simply beacuse its what ever one else dose. I get shocked if one of them can make half the points you guys have made in this thread about them.

I hope this doesn't come across as me hating on apple, i've loved my ipods to death and as soon as i can afford one i'll pick up some kind of iphone and so on...

also, sorry, i honestly didn't mean to derail the thread... i was just making a joke to let off steam about the annoyingly blind macites i'd been dealing with today

[jeffbax]

No, there's an incredible amount of attention to detail. Its often not clear after extended use but it is undeniable. Little things add up. If Macs weren't worth it, people wouldn't pay the premium for them, and Apple wouldn't be vastly outpacing the entire PC industry in growth. One in three dollars spent on retail computer sales goes to Apple. This is not just because they are "pretty"

There are some pretty big behavioral differences between the platforms that are not apparent if you only use a Mac once in a while or from afar.

[Hotcod]

I have been actively in university doing design for 4 years now... and it's been about 7 years i've been around art/design students with many freinds in the filed... i have in fact a mac sitting up stairs that i've had for 4 years (i got it free) that i for nearly a year i had to use as my main computer... and i'm sorry but i have never ever come across this mythic adding up of little things that inheritable make the physical mac better than anything else i've seen used or used my self.

I hate to bring it up but there is this awful fashion program on here that my little brother was watching before in which a fashion expect who believed designer labels where inherently better was asked to pick out from 5 sets of jeans the ones she thought where the best... with out seeing the labels... she picked a midrange pair of jeans and the designer ones came in 3 or so place.

The point is that if you don't think people are willing to spend lots of extra money on a name, a label, or more over a brand that is for what ever reason "cool" then you really really don't know people. Apple has become a designer label and while there are base reasons that macs where more used by designers in the first place they have simply become an ingrained part of the "image" of a designers and as such design students just presume that they are better and are willing to fork the money over for them or to get a mac that is less good for them then a dell or something else.

Again i've noting against you or any one else actaly liking them and feeling they are best for you and worth the extra cash you have to spend... you are at lest informed and it's clear that they will work best for you... but that is simply not true of the people that i deal with.

Design students are inherently interested in trends and to tell the truth there is a honest to god "look" to a lot of designers... i can spot them a mile off... hell even half my tutors subscribe to it... and using a mac is simply a part of that image and a part of there identity as a designer (i know some one who did a vector self portrait for her book and put an apple sweat band on her wrist) and it 90% of the time for no reason other than that is the typical image of a designer.

Of the hundreds of students i've met over the years there really have not been that many who use macs for a real reason. I don't mean by that people who prefer OS X i mean design students who started using macs not beacuse they where blindly told to or because they where cool but beacuse understood things like the colour calibrations and thought it best for them. I've got no doubt for a lot of the students they much prefer OSX to windows, which is personal preference and not what i'm trying to get at... but a lot, a HELL of a lot of students i've met would have been better off with a windows based laptop and either saved money or had something better suited to there needs

[Kryopsis]

Hotcod does have a point. Macs have been pushed as the ultimate computers for artists and students and a lot of people who have no business buying them end up with a MacBook in hand. From my personal experience, there are two kinds of people who should get a Mac. People who use the programs to their fullest, such as Final Cut, will probably end up buying a tower Mac. On the other hand, people with no prior experience with computers and who have no other needs other than email and internet should get a Mac Mini that will last them for years. Everything in the middle, such as the iMac, MacBook and MacBook Air is a waste of money as far as I see. It makes no sense that these computers are advertised for students that are much better off with 700$ Dell laptops.

Personally, I was using my Mac Mini for 3-4 years and fell in love with both the operating system and some of the program. I would take iWork and Final Cut over Word and Adobe Premiere any time of the year. The problem is that I do not have the money to keep up with Mac's hardware and pay more money for less performance. I do miss OSX but at least I am not broke.

[jeffbax]

There is far more to computers than a pricepoint. You get what you pay for. Macs are a premium, and as sales are proving - it is worth it to many many people.

[Cit Phil Cit]

Umm, running in Boot Camp is exactly like running on native hardware, because it IS native hardware.

You're forgetting these things are still basically just PCs with a chip in them that lets them run OS X without a crack.

Wine and the like, sure, they suck, but running in Boot Camp is as good as any other PC, because it is any other PC.

From personal experience, no it is not the same. Likewise from professional experience, no it is not the same. If you choose to game on a laptop, and likewise choose to game on a MAC laptop YMMV.

A mac is a collection of proprietary hardware and a custom OS: very excellent for doing somethings, but it does not do everything. An intel chip in a MAC body does not make it a PC.

I am addressing solely the issue of gaming.

[sparkfizt]

There is far more to computers than a pricepoint. You get what you pay for. Macs are a premium, and as sales are proving - it is worth it to many many people.

Well be honest here, the lemming factor can be independant of quality/good idea. People stocked up on ARM mortgages because "everyone's doing it"... Now it's also very hyperbolic to compare a mac to an ARM mortgage and that's not my intent, I just don think it's valid to hide behind a facade of "everyone's doing it, surely it's for a reason".

Mac laptops are genuinely nice pieces of hardware, I've used a mac pro for about 1.5 years now. I write software for a living and when I took up a new job doing some laser simulation the team required me to use a mac. I've given the mac the best fair appraisal I can, but I know my opinion is biased because i've used a PC for so long and become comfortable with all it's quirks.

The key to buying a mac is trying to buy when they're competitively priced. Dell will change their hardware layouts day to day, in order to keep up with the rapidly changing hardware market. Apple however tends to more slowly refresh their select choice of hardware. So whenever they do a significant hardware refresh they can often reach a decent price parity, but as time goes on, Dell keeps dropping but apple stays static, giving you a sort of sawtooth looking graph of parity. Also, never buy things like RAM upgrades from apple, I'm always astounded that they'll charge something like 500+ bucks to go from 2-4 gigs, when the ram itself can be bought off newegg for 25-50 bucks...

I do concur that macs are seen as a status symbol, and are very trendy right now. My brother is in school for graphics design and has also bought into the cult of apple, but he also likes to game, so that sort of tempers his opinion. It is about time they finally put some decent video cards in the macs though, buying one for boot camp certainly is'nt a bad idea, it's just always worth it to do some research and find what a similarly priced PC get's you.

[Kryopsis]

I concur with everything sparkfizt posted, but especially this:

The key to buying a mac is trying to buy when they're competitively priced. Dell will change their hardware layouts day to day, in order to keep up with the rapidly changing hardware market. Apple however tends to more slowly refresh their select choice of hardware. So whenever they do a significant hardware refresh they can often reach a decent price parity, but as time goes on, Dell keeps dropping but apple stays static, giving you a sort of sawtooth looking graph of parity. Also, never buy things like RAM upgrades from apple, I'm always astounded that they'll charge something like 500+ bucks to go from 2-4 gigs, when the ram itself can be bought off newegg for 25-50 bucks...

Yes, every time Apple updates their hardware, the price difference between a Mac and a PC made using the same premium parts becomes bearable. As I've said in my previous post, I consider OSX the single best operating system I ever had the pleasure of working on and agree that it is often worth the extra fees. It is generally very hard to criticize Mac, just like it is hard to criticize Nintendo: both have a very large fanbase that is frequently overzealous to defend the respective products. Macs are good but Macs are not for everybody. Another thing I can't stand about Apple is their advertisements. The Mac versus PC ads make me cringe every time. They are so smug and arrogant that inadvertently the repulse me. As some of you, notably Hotcod, have noticed, I tend to be very uncomfortable when something is getting the levels of devotion comparable to a mainstream religion and I tend to lose control and say lots of bad things. :0)

[Banacek]

From personal experience, no it is not the same. Likewise from professional experience, no it is not the same. If you choose to game on a laptop, and likewise choose to game on a MAC laptop YMMV.

A mac is a collection of proprietary hardware and a custom OS: very excellent for doing somethings, but it does not do everything. An intel chip in a MAC body does not make it a PC.

I am addressing solely the issue of gaming.

Wow, I guess I should stop playing games like The Witcher and S.T.A.L.K.E.R. at full detail on my Mac, since it's not a PC :rolleyes:

I got the crazy feeling that you don't know what you're talking about.

[Kryopsis]

Wow, I guess I should stop playing games like The Witcher and S.T.A.L.K.E.R. at full detail on my Mac, since it's not a PC :rolleyes:

I got the crazy feeling that you don't know what you're talking about.

Can we talk Crysis for a second?

[Banacek]

Can we talk Crysis for a second?

I can run Crysis on my Mac, I just don't own it to run it through the paces.

Then again, I own a Mac Pro with a 880GT :)

[sparkfizt]

hehe on the topic of mac quality, this is what my friend was greeted by when he opened the box to his new mac :P

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i95/Sparkfizt/photo.jpg

(yes all companies have quality control issues, even apple)

[Hotcod]

(yes all companies have quality control issues, even apple)

LIIIIIIIIEEEEEEEEEEEESSSSSSS LIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE EEESSSSSSSSSSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! APPPPPPPPPPPPPPLE IS PERFECTSSJDFSLJFAHF:LKASJFAKJFAKJFASLJAJFAHD:JKFAS KJDALKJGALKSJFALkjsfa

sorry i thought i'd save the macites the trouble :D

[Banacek]

LIIIIIIIIEEEEEEEEEEEESSSSSSS LIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE EEESSSSSSSSSSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! APPPPPPPPPPPPPPLE IS PERFECTSSJDFSLJFAHF:LKASJFAKJFAKJFASLJAJFAHD:JKFAS KJDALKJGALKSJFALkjsfa

sorry i thought i'd save the macites the trouble :D

The fact that people hate Macs makes me enjoy mine so much more :)

[Hotcod]

The fact that people hate Macs makes me enjoy mine so much more :)

i have never once in this thread said i hate macs thank you very much. I don't like the os but that is just personal preference. I think they are rather over priced for what really is a good looking case and an OS. I just hate macites and the mac culture in the design world that is followed blindly by people who would and could be far better off with a PC which is cheaper and better suited to there needs. I see design students trying to deal with large scanned images or complex animation in flash and after effect on the best macs they could afford and having a real hard time beacuse the little thing doesn't have the grunt that an equal priced PC would have.

But if you have the money laying around and prefer the OS or get one for any other number of valid reasons that make it right for you then macs can be grate... so yes, i don't hate them as a product i just more hate the cult that surrounds them beacuse i have to deal with blind maccites every time i turn up to uni with this dell laptop

In other words if some one where to hand me a macbook pro i would take it while giggling like a school girl... i'd likely boot it in windows due to my OS preferences but still i'd never buy one

[Kryopsis]

I can run Crysis on my Mac, I just don't own it to run it through the paces.

Then again, I own a Mac Pro with a 880GT :)

Ah, I was about to ask if you had one of those Ferrari-priced Macs. :0)

Congratulations on affording one. If only I had the money...

[J Arcane]

The fact that people hate Macs makes me enjoy mine so much more :)
Personally I'm deeply amused by the fact that the lightest positive statement about them sends said haters into a frothing rage of "omg ur mac fanboy blind maccite blah blah i don't use punctuation or spelling".

I have some seriously harsh criticism for the way Apple does business (this thread was pretty much them addressing one of my biggest beefs of late), there's a reason I've yet to actually pay money for a single Apple product, I'm just also more than capable of similarly recognizing their strengths as well, which is why I find accusations of "blind fanboyism" particularly hilarious when directed at myself.

[Banacek]

Personally I'm deeply amused by the fact that the lightest positive statement about them sends said haters into a frothing rage of "omg ur mac fanboy blind maccite blah blah i don't use punctuation or spelling".

I have some seriously harsh criticism for the way Apple does business (this thread was pretty much them addressing one of my biggest beefs of late), there's a reason I've yet to actually pay money for a single Apple product, I'm just also more than capable of similarly recognizing their strengths as well, which is why I find accusations of "blind fanboyism" particularly hilarious when directed at myself.

I know. I really find it odd how much people get upset online if you like Macs. Honestly, why care?

[J Arcane]

I know. I really find it odd how much people get upset online if you like Macs. Honestly, why care?
I blame Windows. Seriously. It's shit, they know it's shit, and they've been having it drilled into them how much it's shit for eons from all sides for years, whether it's Apple, Linux, even other Windows users. After a while, some of them snap and get defensive over it because they're tired of hearing it.

It's sort of like if you buy a crappy car because you were broke, and all your friends start giving you shit about how much it sucks. You know it sucks, but you get defensive over it anyway, because it's still your car.

[jeffbax]

I know. I really find it odd how much people get upset online if you like Macs. Honestly, why care?

We live in a disposable society of preferring to buy cheap, shitty products instead of paying more for quality ;) Some people also think all that can possibly matter for electronics are numbers on a spec sheet.

[KingGorilla]

We live in a disposable society of preferring to buy cheap, shitty products instead of paying more for quality ;) Some people also think all that can possibly matter for electronics are numbers on a spec sheet.

Does not compute!

Now there are not even proprietary parts in a Mac. The only thing separating a Mac from my Lenovo or Gaming rig, is a corporate logo...and a right click. I still do not get how you can play an RTS without right click.

[J Arcane]

Does not compute!

Now there are not even proprietary parts in a Mac. The only thing separating a Mac from my Lenovo or Gaming rig, is a corporate logo...and a right click. I still do not get how you can play an RTS without right click.
It's a good thing the current Apple mouse has right click then, isn't it?

[KingGorilla]

That goofy dual click method? Does Mac OS X, Puma? Liger? what animal are they on now, have right click all of the sudden too?

I am not a Mac Hater. But it seems to me that anyone who has not had a deep sip of the Steve Jobs Kool-Aide, is seen as a hater by the cult.

[jeffbax]

Does not compute!

Now there are not even proprietary parts in a Mac. The only thing separating a Mac from my Lenovo or Gaming rig, is a corporate logo...and a right click. I still do not get how you can play an RTS without right click.

Specs might be the same, implementations are certainly not, nor is the OS. Additionally anyone who actually bothered knowing a thing or two about them would know that Macs have supported multibutton mice for what now seems like an eternity.

Not requiring one due to the OS and App design paradigms not being overly dependent upon right-click contextual menus like Windows doesn't mean you can't use one.

[J Arcane]

That goofy dual click method? Does Mac OS X, Puma? Liger? what animal are they on now, have right click all of the sudden too?

I am not a Mac Hater. But it seems to me that anyone who has not had a deep sip of the Steve Jobs Kool-Aide, is seen as a hater by the cult.
No, the Mighty Mouse has right click. It was released three years ago, and has been the standard Apple mouse for some time.

Furthermore, the OS has supported right click via Ctrl-click and/or third-party multi button mice since at least OS 8, which is at this point over 10 years old.

The "no right click" thing is pretty much the biggest goddamn myth in the history of fucking computing, and nothing brands someone as little more than a troll faster than spouting it.

[KingGorilla]

OK, 2 more banana riders, easy to fuck with, Disgustipated has to step it up.

[Banacek]

Does not compute!

Now there are not even proprietary parts in a Mac. The only thing separating a Mac from my Lenovo or Gaming rig, is a corporate logo...and a right click. I still do not get how you can play an RTS without right click.

You couldn't pay me enough to work in XP or Vista. OSX's UI is fantastic, and Terminal just seals the deal.

Oh, and about the right-click:

http://img513.imageshack.us/img513/4412/picture1vi8.png (http://imageshack.us)

[jeffbax]

For better or worse, I am paid enough to work with XP every day of the job... and boy can it be painful at times.

[KingGorilla]

For better or worse, I am paid enough to work with XP every day of the job... and boy can it be painful at times.

You're telling me brother. If I had a dime for every time Acrobat crashed when I was half done with my scanned docs, I would only need to work half the time. What I hate more is that business marches to the beat of Office 2004. Worse wordprocessing and e-mail clients I have yet to find.

[J Arcane]

You couldn't pay me enough to work in XP or Vista. OSX's UI is fantastic, and Terminal just seals the deal.

I use XP on a fairly regular basis, as a secondary OS. Put blunty, you really just can't be a gamer without a damn Windows machine, unless you like shitty casual games and ancient ports. The Mac goes through good phases and bad phases on this, but by and large it'll always be behind as long as Apple has their head up their ass on the issue.

For everything else though? OS X without a single doubt in my mind. I just generally won't pay for the damn hardware, because I'm not a bloody millionaire (though if this new GPU policy spreads from their laptops, my mind might change). My Mac is a hand-built Hackentosh cobbled together from old parts from several different computers.

[Banacek]

You're telling me brother. If I had a dime for every time Acrobat crashed when I was half done with my scanned docs, I would only need to work half the time. What I hate more is that business marches to the beat of Office 2004. Worse wordprocessing and e-mail clients I have yet to find.

Hopefully OpenOffice 3 will start to make a dent in Office's market share. I haven't got a chance to check it out yet.

[J Arcane]

Hopefully OpenOffice 3 will start to make a dent in Office's market share. I haven't got a chance to check it out yet.
It's a shame that Open Office for the Mac is such utter crap. Official OO runs like garbage, and NeoOffice really isn't much of an improvement, and is also out of date.

Part of this, in fairness, is Apple's fault for putting out such shitty X11 support, but even the third-party "improved" versions really don't seem to be any better. Really I place the blame on how shit X itself is, that it winds up so painfully out of place next to how speedy Aqua usually is.

[Banacek]

It's a shame that Open Office for the Mac is such utter crap. Official OO runs like garbage, and NeoOffice really isn't much of an improvement, and is also out of date.

Part of this, in fairness, is Apple's fault for putting out such shitty X11 support, but even the third-party "improved" versions really don't seem to be any better. Really I place the blame on how shit X itself is, that it winds up so painfully out of place next to how speedy Aqua usually is.

I agree with everything in your post. I think that Apple has a deal with Microsoft when it comes to Office. They won't try to support anything like OpenOffice and in turn MS will give them their own version of Office. That's just my thought, I have no proof of that :)

OO 3 has native OSX support, so I should really check it out. Maybe they've made improvements.

[KingGorilla]

Hopefully OpenOffice 3 will start to make a dent in Office's market share. I haven't got a chance to check it out yet.

Well, Open source is slowly making its way into the business community. Remember some of the horrid blogging APIs that were out in the early days? Not to mention the corporations trusting their livelihoods to Linux based servers.

I had hoped, prior to this economic and credit crysis, to gather the necessary backing to start a home based computer business delivering such things to the home and small office user. Now I could not get a line of credit to save my life. The degree to which the large stores like Dell, Best Buy and their Geek Squad, HP take advantage of those customers is sickening.

[Banacek]

Well, Open source is slowly making its way into the business community. Remember some of the horrid blogging APIs that were out in the early days? Not to mention the corporations trusting their livelihoods to Linux based servers.

I had hoped, prior to this economic and credit crysis, to gather the necessary backing to start a home based computer business delivering such things to the home and small office user. Now I could not get a line of credit to save my life. The degree to which the large stores like Dell, Best Buy and their Geek Squad, HP take advantage of those customers is sickening.

Well, I think if you look at distros like Debian or CentOS reliability is pretty solid. Your business idea was a pretty good one, it's a shame that the economy turned south.

[KingGorilla]

I cross my fingers that it is a brief recession. Gives me a time to get a few certs.

[Kryopsis]

Well, Open source is slowly making its way into the business community. Remember some of the horrid blogging APIs that were out in the early days? Not to mention the corporations trusting their livelihoods to Linux based servers.

I had hoped, prior to this economic and credit crysis, to gather the necessary backing to start a home based computer business delivering such things to the home and small office user. Now I could not get a line of credit to save my life. The degree to which the large stores like Dell, Best Buy and their Geek Squad, HP take advantage of those customers is sickening.

The sign of a true gamer. ;0)


Sorry for this intrusion. I'll be gone now. Carry on.

[Hotcod]

I hate people who blindly hate macs, i hate people who blindly love them. Odd i know but it just amazes me how people feel the need to define them selfs by the OS they use or the damn logo on there hardware... while there's no real macite blind love in this thread there is certainly, coming for some people at lest, a feeling of smug superiority that is honestly rather annoying if not out right macitisum. The whole thing is honestly worse than the console fanboys and just as pathetic on almost all sides.

[Hotcod]

http://www.apple.com/getamac/ads/

ok that just really really gets to me... since the apple fan boys watching an ADVERT in a LONG RUNNING SERIES OF ADVERTS will eat it up... microsoft get fed up with apples all but blatant lying and counters it so mac attacks them for spending money on adverts? it's just... gah... why i hate all this crap so much

[QueQueg]

I've been gaming on my new 22" iMac, booting into Vista Ultimate.

2.4 GHz dual-core, 4 gb ram, and a 256mb nVidia card (no idea what ###). I've been playing Warhammer online with everything turned up, at 1280x768. It's fantastic.

Booting Windows on a Mac is just like booting Windows on a PC. There's no difference. The only problem I run into is that damn might-mouse right click :P.

[Hotcod]

thats around £1,350 over here... for which, by dell of all people, you could get 2.6 quad core with 4bg of ram and the 1gb nvidia card... hell you could get an sli laptop that is better and i'm not even sure you could spend that much money on a PC if you built it your self. If your booting in to windows anyway why not get better hardware and dule boot in to ubuntu or hell even OS X which isn't hard to do these days... well other than doing the OSX thing being illegal that is...

Sorry i know i'm just repeating my self at this stage but that just gave me an idea... if i could get os x running on this laptop and take it in to uni it would likely cause some of the macites to have a heart attack... which is really very temping heh

[QueQueg]

At the house, I only boot into Windows to play games though. I'm happier and more comfortable with OSX as an OS.

[Hotcod]

At the house, I only boot into Windows to play games though. I'm happier and more comfortable with OSX as an OS.

Which is fair enough but personally i can't understand liking any OS enough that its worth the £500/600 you are effectively paying for it

[sparkfizt]

For better or worse, I am paid enough to work with XP every day of the job... and boy can it be painful at times.

For better or worse, I am paid enough to work with OSX every other day of the job... and boy can it be painful at times.

;) I was rather shocked when I started working for a team that essentially mandates the use of mac book pros. I've used osx for about 1.5 years now, and I have to say I prefer windows. It's not so bad using the mac, but I've run into enough little things that annoy me. Also I have a pretty good track record at crashing the entire OS with firefox + smartcard reader. Of course that's not an issue anymore, because leopard + that reader + new brand of smartcard = incompatible. So at the moment I'm sunk until I can buy a new reader.

[Banacek]

http://www.apple.com/getamac/ads/

ok that just really really gets to me... since the apple fan boys watching an ADVERT in a LONG RUNNING SERIES OF ADVERTS will eat it up... microsoft get fed up with apples all but blatant lying and counters it so mac attacks them for spending money on adverts? it's just... gah... why i hate all this crap so much

You care too much. Let it go.

[KingGorilla]

Funny thing on the ads, people like the PC character ,and dislike the Mac.

[Hotcod]

You care too much. Let it go.

no i was posting something that is relative to the discussion to back up the points i've been making.

[QueQueg]

Funny thing on the ads, people like the PC character ,and dislike the Mac.

It's true. Who identifies with the 20-something hipster... really? I mean, we all kind of feel like the PC nerd at times. He's just so lovable.

The mac hipster needs a knuckle sandwich.

[Kryopsis]

Yeah, the Mac is pretty damn arrogant and annoying. I can't stand Apple's "Mac vs PC" ads, honestly.

I did like Apple's 1984 ad.

[J Arcane]

Yeah, the Mac is pretty damn arrogant and annoying. I can't stand Apple's "Mac vs PC" ads, honestly.

I did like Apple's 1984 ad.
Eh. Some of 'em are good, some of them are stupid, but they've never really bothered me, and I think you have to be trying pretty hard to find much offense in them. Some of the Vista related ones were pretty amusing in paticular.

I do really think they should just ditch them though. Get the team that does the iPhone promos to take over. There's so many cool features and things about OS X that they could really have a field day with that style of add, and it would do a far better job of actually showing people why it's cool than a bunch of jokey skits.

[Schnoogs]

One in three dollars spent on retail computer sales goes to Apple. .

Thats because they cost 3x what they should! ;)

I bought the one model that wasn't overpriced I went and put Vista on it.

[Schnoogs]

I can't stand Apple's "Mac vs PC" ads, honestly.

My favorite is their latest one making fun of MS for advertising Vista...all the while this is a Mac ad.

Hypocrisy and denial for the win!

[Hotcod]

Thats because they cost 3x what they should! ;)

I bought the one model that wasn't overpriced I went and put Vista on it.

Take any successful designer label that sells at a much higher price than other things in there market and they will account for more money in that market than where there market share is. In other words that 1 in 3 represents maybe 1 in 10 computers sold at best given there 10/13% market shear.

Talking of which i wonder what would happen if mac decided to sell an OS X installable on any PC... would mac sales drop but OS market share increase? They would make far less money doing that i think given that people with macs has effectively paid 2 or 3 times the general price of the hardware to use it (which i still really don't understand) but it would solve a lot of my problems as annoying macite designers would have to admit they brought there's purely beacuse it looked purdy ha

[Banacek]

Take any successful designer label that sells at a much higher price than other things in there market and they will account for more money in that market than where there market share is. In other words that 1 in 3 represents maybe 1 in 10 computers sold at best given there 10/13% market shear.

Talking of which i wonder what would happen if mac decided to sell an OS X installable on any PC... would mac sales drop but OS market share increase? They would make far less money doing that i think given that people with macs has effectively paid 2 or 3 times the general price of the hardware to use it (which i still really don't understand) but it would solve a lot of my problems as annoying macite designers would have to admit they brought there's purely beacuse it looked purdy ha

Your anti-Apple fandom is on the same level as an Apple fanboy.

[Hotcod]

Your anti-Apple fandom is on the same level as an Apple fanboy.

Explain to me in detail where i've been overly and directly anti-apple... just to help you out let's sum up what i've said. I personally don't like the OS but understand that people do but i find it odd that they like it enough to spend a large chunk of money on it given the hardware is so over priced now matter how you look at it. I hate macites and the fact that they are ingrained as part of the design world for no good reason, i hate putting up with students and fan boys who don't know the first thing about why they should or shouldn't like the OS. I have stated that i love the ipod, i think it's a grate series of mp3 players and that i will be picking up an iphone as soon as i can afford it beacuse it's simply a joy to use and is relatively priced to any other high end phone i could want.

So yes, my anit-apple fandom must be off the charts with my ipod on my desk while i sit here listing to stuff i've brought on itunes simply beacuse in a thread about macs i've pointed out that i hate macites and the amamzing level of blind brand loyalty they seem to have. I mean god forbid I talk about how there ads are incipient fuelling of that and the idea that the money apple is making by selling overly expensive hardware is not indicative of there place in the market... oh and that i said osx would easily have a larger market share if it wasn't tied to apple hardware...

that's the 3rd time you've taken a shot at me in this thread and said that i'm doing or saying something i'm clearly not. No doubt this post will probably mark the 3rd time you won't reply to me when i answer.

edit: this is, some what ironically, my most "anti apple" post of this whole thread heh

[Banacek]

Easy: if you use terms like "macites" then you're part of the problem.

[Hotcod]

until you've spent a day in a design course using a pc you have no idea what the problem is

edit: even if quick one liner would make for a cooler post i feel like i should add that macites is a true and apt description of a large number of people i know, have known and will carry on meeting... blind mac fanboyisum is annoying rampant and if your just going to ignore that then this conversion is going to go nowhere beacuse you are equally as blind. Also you've again failed to actually reply to me response, which while it isn't surprising is rather disappointing

[Banacek]

Sounds like your problem isn't Mac users as much as your classmates.

Also, poor spelling, improper punctuation, childish insults, and run-on sentences really don't help you articulate the point you're trying to make. But whatever, keep taking your pent-up hostility towards your classmates out in this thread. I hope it's cathartic.

[Hotcod]

Well that just proves that you've not read the thread at all or know any of the point i'm making. But ok, let me restate that line. Until you've spent 4 years actively each learning or working in the design world, 7 or since you started to get involved, with freinds who have done design in a number of other university have been to and done bits of work in a number of studios and have in effect met hundreds of designers students and other wise... you don't understand the problem.

Well you got me, i'm dyslexic. Shocking. I'm using childish insults beacuse you are a child. The fact you've had to resort to attack my spell and grammar just shows that you've got no other arguments to stand on. Trust me, this happens a lot. I show some one to be an idiot and they react by childishly attacking my spell or such as a way to try and prove that there better than me. Which again shouldn't be suppressing as you've spent this whole thread trying to make your self look better than every one else... which is odd one of the major problems with the mac fanboys that i've ran in to over the years.

[QueQueg]

Easy there, champ. This was a friendly thread.

Maybe try decaf?

[Hotcod]

i'm sorry if i get a bit worked up when people feel the need to attack me about my spelling rather than the point i was making but you honestly can not understand how amazingly frustrating that is. when for a long time as a kid you where told you where stupid and dumb when you know your probably more intelligent than the people telling you how stupid you are. When it comes to internet threads when some one attacks my spelling it's always always beacuse they have no where else left to go with there own argument.

This stopped being friendly the second he decided to attack me based on my spelling... he can't know that i'm dyslexic but i'm sick to the back teeth of having to explain my self to people who assume that they can disregard my arguments or ideas due to a few spelling mistakes.

[Schnoogs]

i'm sorry if i get a bit worked up when people feel the need to attack me about my spelling rather than the point i was making but you honestly can not understand how amazingly frustrating that is. when for a long time as a kid you where told you where stupid and dumb when you know your probably more intelligent than the people telling you how stupid you are. When it comes to internet threads when some one attacks my spelling it's always always beacuse they have no where else left to go with there own argument.

This stopped being friendly the second he decided to attack me based on my spelling... he can't know that i'm dyslexic but i'm sick to the back teeth of having to explain my self to people who assume that they can disregard my arguments or ideas due to a few spelling mistakes.

That's a common rhetorical ploy...people attack what they can...when people post they are often in a hurry therefore they make common spelling and grammar mistakes.

I can remember once writing up some 10 paragraph post over at EvAv and the only response I got was that I misspelled some word in paragraph 3. :(

[Banacek]

Well you got me, i'm dyslexic. Shocking. I'm using childish insults beacuse you are a child. The fact you've had to resort to attack my spell and grammar just shows that you've got no other arguments to stand on. Trust me, this happens a lot. I show some one to be an idiot and they react by childishly attacking my spell or such as a way to try and prove that there better than me. Which again shouldn't be suppressing as you've spent this whole thread trying to make your self look better than every one else... which is odd one of the major problems with the mac fanboys that i've ran in to over the years.

If it happens a lot then one would conclude that the problem isn't with everyone else. The problem is with you. You haven't shown anyone up here. You haven't even clearly conveyed a point, except that you don't like Mac users.

I wanted to talked about gaming on the new Macbooks. How about you talk about that, since that's the point of the thread. Ars Technica has posted the second part of their review (http://arstechnica.com/reviews/hardware/2008-macbookpro-review-2.ars) of the new Macbook Pros. They seemed to put out a good performance when it comes to gaming. I don't think the new Macbooks will fare as well since they only have the 9400M video card.

[Banacek]

i'm sorry if i get a bit worked up when people feel the need to attack me about my spelling rather than the point i was making but you honestly can not understand how amazingly frustrating that is. when for a long time as a kid you where told you where stupid and dumb when you know your probably more intelligent than the people telling you how stupid you are. When it comes to internet threads when some one attacks my spelling it's always always beacuse they have no where else left to go with there own argument.

This stopped being friendly the second he decided to attack me based on my spelling... he can't know that i'm dyslexic but i'm sick to the back teeth of having to explain my self to people who assume that they can disregard my arguments or ideas due to a few spelling mistakes.

I never said you were stupid or dumb, and I never said I was better than you. The only reason someone would mention the content of your posts is because they are so poorly written. I highly doubt that you take the time needed to reread what you've written and correct any mistakes you've made. I mean, Firefox has a spell checker built in! Instead of getting angry with everyone else how about you work on yourself?

The idea that someone only corrects you because you have "won" the argument is both arrogant and delusional. What is it that you think you've won here? That all Mac users are assholes? If you attack those designers the way you attack here I can only imagine why they would give you such a hard time.

[Banacek]

That's a common rhetorical ploy...people attack what they can...when people post they are often in a hurry therefore they make common spelling and grammar mistakes.

I can remember once writing up some 10 paragraph post over at EvAv and the only response I got was that I misspelled some word in paragraph 3. :(

One spelling mistake is one thing, his posts are another.

[KingGorilla]

This is fun to watch.

[Hotcod]

If it happens a lot then one would conclude that the problem isn't with everyone else. The problem is with you. You haven't shown anyone up here. You haven't even clearly conveyed a point, except that you don't like Mac users.

Point to where i have said i hate all mac users? you can't? shocking! I have never anywhere in this thread said i hate mac users, i've said time and time again i hate the blind fan boys and the blind "this is the design you have to use macs" cutler. There are 3 kinds of people in terms of the computer they use in a design course, there are the mac fanboys who range from knowing what they are talking about to knowing nothing but are convinced macs are the best things everz and any one who doesn't agree is silly.... there are the people who don't know about this kind of stuff who end up with macs beacuse that is what they are told to do by the tutors who 70% of the time are do so beacuse it was what they where told... and then there are people who know what they are talking about and use what they feel is best for them. That includes people who use macs. You seem to think that attacking blind fanboisum is attacking every one who uses it.



I wanted to talked about gaming on the new Macbooks. How about you talk about that, since that's the point of the thread. Ars Technica has posted the second part of their review (http://arstechnica.com/reviews/hardware/2008-macbookpro-review-2.ars) of the new Macbook Pros. They seemed to put out a good performance when it comes to gaming. I don't think the new Macbooks will fare as well since they only have the 9400M video card.

if you just wanted to talk about gaming why reply to my posts at all? you got in to the discussion and now your trying to distance your self from it beacuse you have no idea what your talking about

I never said you were stupid or dumb, and I never said I was better than you. The only reason someone would mention the content of your posts is because they are so poorly written. I highly doubt that you take the time needed to reread what you've written and correct any mistakes you've made. I mean, Firefox has a spell checker built in! Instead of getting angry with everyone else how about you work on yourself?

You honestly don't get the dyslexia thing do you? i use the spell checker thank you and i do reread my posts which is why half of them end up with "edited" tagged on the bottom given that even after i've reread and posted i reread and sometimes see things i've missed. You are honestly pathetic.


The idea that someone only corrects you because you have "won" the argument is both arrogant and delusional. What is it that you think you've won here? That all Mac users are assholes? If you attack those designers the way you attack here I can only imagine why they would give you such a hard time.

Given that each time i've replied to your posts you've avoided talking about what i've said and go on to say another dumb thing until you run out of those and feel the need to move on to my spelling to try and make the point that you can spell right so you must be better or more intelligent and that your points must be right. Then yes i think you soul reason for bring it up was to try discredit me and my posts and bolster your own view of your self in the hopes that you'll get other on your side. if it wasn't anything to do with the fact that i've been responding to your posts and making your look frankly like a child then why did you not bring it up before you did? if it was purely about my spelling why not PM me or bring it up in another thread? hmmm? what ever you say it is clear to every one that your attack on my spelling is linked to you trying to "win"

As to what do i think i've won? i don't know, how about counting ever point you've made... which is easy since you insist on trying to put words in to my mouth or claim i'm saying thing i'm not. Again i'd like you to go back and point out exactly where i've said or implied that i hate all macusers or think there assholes. If you'd read my posts you'd know i've used a mac for a year... so by your logic i must hate my self...

One spelling mistake is one thing, his posts are another.

Go type dyslexia in google and spend some time making your self look less like the ignorant asshole that you so clearly are.

[Banacek]

This is fun to watch.

Not really. I'm out.

[KingGorilla]

Not really. I'm out.

It is important to find those who fly off the handle without provocation, over nada.

This also serves as a study for the inverse relationship between post length and usefulness/relevance.

[Banacek]

It is important to find those who fly off the handle without provocation, over nada.

This also serves as a study for the inverse relationship between post length and usefulness/relevance.

So, you want to talk about the new Macbooks? :D

[Hotcod]

Not really. I'm out.

oh look you avoid actually having to explain your self yet again! thank you very much for proving my point about you :)

It is important to find those who fly off the handle without provocation, over nada.

The guy insults my spelling as a way to disregard my posts and then even when i tell him i'm dyslexic insists that a spell checker can fix it... that is not with out provocation and is not nada

[KingGorilla]

So, you want to talk about the new Macbooks? :D

Sure, Why more of the same, the growth is in Netbooks, and the very inexpensive. Nice they axed firewire on the mid-range after cramming it down our throats.

[Banacek]

Sure, Why more of the same, the growth is in Netbooks, and the very inexpensive. Nice they axed firewire on the mid-range after cramming it down our throats.

People are saying that a bigger revamp should be coming in Jan. I think that this laptop bump was good for the Macbooks, and very sad for the Macbook Pros. Apple seems to care less and less about the line. They didn't even bother touching the 17 inch models really. I also think that they didn't lower the price of the old Macbooks enough. They really should be at least $800.

[Hotcod]

They really should be at least $800.

wow something we agree on :eek: i do think this is a good move in the right direction for apple to take with the mac books. If they drooped the price more and offer a wider range of options they could become very competitive with the likes of dells midrange stuff which is good for every one really

[J Arcane]

People are saying that a bigger revamp should be coming in Jan. I think that this laptop bump was good for the Macbooks, and very sad for the Macbook Pros. Apple seems to care less and less about the line. They didn't even bother touching the 17 inch models really. I also think that they didn't lower the price of the old Macbooks enough. They really should be at least $800.
I think one thing Apple forgets about the success about the iBook and original iMac was that for the time, they were actually pretty damn good deals.

I also think they continue to underestimate the numbers of people who would buy a Mac in a heartbeat but won't simply because of the price.

[Banacek]

wow something we agree on :eek: i do think this is a good move in the right direction for apple to take with the mac books. If they drooped the price more and offer a wider range of options they could become very competitive with the likes of dells midrange stuff which is good for every one really

I think one thing Apple forgets about the success about the iBook and original iMac was that for the time, they were actually pretty damn good deals.

I also think they continue to underestimate the numbers of people who would buy a Mac in a heartbeat but won't simply because of the price.

That's the thing: if those older Macbooks sold for $700~$800 they would sell like gangbusters. You're right, I know a bunch of people who would buy a Macbook if it fell in that price range. As it stands they'll just end up buying a Dell for about that price and never think about it again. One would think they would have a iPod+Macbook for under $1000 deal or something. Get the consumers in both doors at once. Oh well. it's not up to me :)

[J Arcane]

That's the thing: if those older Macbooks sold for $700~$800 they would sell like gangbusters. You're right, I know a bunch of people who would buy a Macbook if it fell in that price range. As it stands they'll just end up buying a Dell for about that price and never think about it again. One would think they would have a iPod+Macbook for under $1000 deal or something. Get the consumers in both doors at once. Oh well. it's not up to me :)
Well, as a counter point and in fairness to Apple, they DO have much higher quality standards on their parts than Dell and the like, barring the occasional fuck up.

The one flipside to the iMac/iBook story is that while for the time they were quite affordable, they're also some of the most notorious for hardware failure . . . :/

Still, at least dropping a few hundred bucks down to $999, and not gouging the fuck out of people on part upgrades, would make a huge difference and should still well fit within their bottom line.

[Schnoogs]

and not gouging the fuck out of people on part upgrades.

This is my main issue...I've been wanting to upgrade my Mac Pro's video card. Not only do I have ONE fucking option but it costs an arm and a leg.

I would love to be able to drop in any new ATI or NVidia card without having to flash the BIOS, etc.

Now I'm stuck with this POS 2600.

[Goronmon]

Easy: if you use terms like "macites" then you're part of the problem.I actually just wanted to comment on this. Perhaps he's using the term "macites" to differentiate regular Mac users from the zealots? That's what it seems the intention was to me...but you seem to have been aiming for provocation either way, so I guess this post is probably a waste.

[Banacek]

I actually just wanted to comment on this. Perhaps he's using the term "macites" to differentiate regular Mac users from the zealots? That's what it seems the intention was to me...but you seem to have been aiming for provocation either way, so I guess this post is probably a waste.

We've moved on. I think it's for the best.