Rumor: NextBox Will be *Forward* Compatible

[Siraris]

http://www.schiaccianoci.net/wp-content/uploads/2006/10/720.jpg

We all know what backwards compatibility is. You take out your trusty copy of Vagrant Story (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vagrant_Story), put it into your brand new PlayStation 3*, and off you go on one of your favorite adventures. All well and good, right? Well, what about forwards compatibility? How would that sound?

Essentially, the idea seems to be that if you put an Xbox 360 game into the new Xbox console, it would improve the quality of the game in many different ways. From draw distance, to texture detail, even controls.

The rumor comes from Xbox Evolved (http://xboxevolved.e-mpire.com/article/3rd_generation_Xbox/4902.html) which was the site that posted the rumor back in 2004 that the next Xbox (now known as the Xbox 360) would not come with a standard hard drive, so they aren't a completely unreliable source. To add on to the credibility of the rumor, the PlayStation 2 was able to improve the quality of PlayStation 1 and PlayStation 2 titles, albeit not always so pronounced. If Microsoft was so forward thinking as to have developers code their games in a particular way to take advantage of this feature, it could actually come true.

I have a few "technical" insiders that I am going to check with, and I will be sure to update the story once I run this by them to see how valid the idea is. But if it is true, it is terribly exciting.

* PlayStation 3 with backwards compatibility hardware required

Update - After speaking to some people who are involved in graphical hardware development, this doesn't seem that far fetched. The way it would work is, a developer would code the game to say, "If X flag is set, EnableSuperHighDetail". The developer would have to know the graphical power of the next Xbox, and then they would just up the settings, like you would on a PC. So, for example, if you are playing Team Fortress 2 on 2x anti-aliasing, with medium detail, and draw distance set to low, and you updated your rig, you could then set it to 8x anti-aliasing, with high detail and far draw distance. The same would apply here, the developer would only have to add the code and any assets for it. This could also be patched into the game at a later time, so games that didn't take advantage could be patched to do so. Unfortunately, I don't see most developers taking the time, or investing the money, to update older games unless it's extremely easy and cost effective.

We'll see how it plays out.

[pomeroy]

Very interesting. I'm just worried about Rock Band, to be honest. I want all these songs I buy to work FOREVER.

[Sandman]

Didn't they claim that the 360 would do this with xbox games?

[GrenMag]

Didn't they claim that the 360 would do this with xbox games?

And it does, to some small extent. I'd have to look up the info, but it appears to up the resolution for most games and has some improvements in texture filtering. I've never seen anything earth-shattering, but it is noticeable.

[pomeroy]

Didn't they claim that the 360 would do this with xbox games?

It upscales them if they are BC compatible, right?

[GigaFuzz]

How is this 'forwards compatible'? Surely that would being able to play a 360 game in an Xbox, or a PS3 game in a PS2.

Or I R dumb?

Edit: The article talks about the games being coded to support the NextBox, which means that the GAMES will be forward compatible, not the NextBox.

[Gorvi]

Vagrant Story is a PS1 game, it'd work on any PS3. I have nothing more to add. ;)

[Wilkz07]

Didn't they claim that the 360 would do this with xbox games?

i'm disappointed that my $0.99 used copies of Terminator Redemptions, Kingdom Under Fire and Rainbow Six Critical Hour don't work on 360.

[Schnoogs]

How is this 'forwards compatible'? Surely that would being able to play a 360 game in an Xbox, or a PS3 game in a PS2.

Or I R dumb?

I think they mean the SDK and framework will force the games to be written in such a way that when they are played on any future XBox they will immediately benefit from the hardware.

[jeffbax]

There's probably filtering to be done, I don't understand why they'd do it though... they want people to buy new versions not play old ones.

[violent]

PS3 and 360 already seem to improve the quality of their predecessors. This just seems to simply be an evolution of that concept. And Giga is right. Forward-compat in the opposite sense of back-compat would indicate a 360 game on an XBox. What we have here is the twinkle in the eye of the father of a potential new buzz word.

EDIT: Also, that thing in the OP, kill it. With fire. Hot fire.

[GigaFuzz]

I think they mean the SDK and framework will force the games to be written in such a way that when they are played on any future XBox they will immediately benefit from the hardware.

But is this about writing 360 games to take advantage of the Xbox 720 (made up codename, obv.), or writing 720 games to take advantage of the Xbox 1080?

[Johan]

You know, as nice as this would be, I'm kinda a "living in the present" kind of guy, and I would sure as HELL have enjoyed a more complete BC experience on the 360.

Yeah...I have more titles I'd like to play from my original on my extra-crispy. (Oh yeah; I went there).

[Mike Kelehan]

My guess is it'll upscale them to 1080p, and you'll have access to whatever new slide-in guide the new system has, but that's about it. I'm not a programmer myself... but I'm willing to bet draw distance is out of the question.

Unless, of course, they make new 360 games from the ground up to have enhancements for the next gen.

IF Xbox=360 THEN draw(near)
IF Xbox=720 THEN draw(far)

[Spigot]

They did this to a certain extent with a few late generation PS1 games. Things like Vagrant Story (good pick) and Xenogears were coded in such a way as to take advantage of things like the texture smoothing in the PS2.

Forwards Compatibility is not the best choice of terminology. It does make it sound as though Xbox 3 would be able to play Xbox 4 games (in 2025).

[rein]

I'm a big proponent of backward compatibility but can these assholes call it what it is? I know Microsoft didn't focus on BC and hinted it wasn't all that important this generation but no reason they can't still use the word backward compatible.

[Schnoogs]

I'm a big proponent of backward compatibility but can these assholes call it what it is? I know Microsoft didn't focus on BC and hinted it wasn't all that important this generation but no reason they can't still use the word backward compatible.

This isn't backwards compatibility...so perhaps that's why they've chosen to use a different and more descriptive term.

[KingGorilla]

But how will VelocityGrl benefit from Forwards Compatibility?

[King3567]

For the love of god, just make it so that they have PS2 or Wii level of BACKWARDS compatibility.

[Iron Past]

What I'm taking away from this is that there is at least a little focus on BC for the NextBox, which is always a good thing. I don't really care about all the other technical aspects.

[GigaFuzz]

This isn't backwards compatibility...so perhaps that's why they've chosen to use a different and more descriptive term.

What is it then? Unless the NextBox can play it's successor's games then it isn't forwards compatible.

The games themselves could be argued to be forward compatible, however, if they are coded to take advantage of the NextBox.

The headline is misleading.

[Widgetcraft]

I would think that forward compatibility would imply that you'd be able to take one of these games, and put it into an older model (a 360) and have it work. Or, in the future, that you'd be able to take the NEXT set of XBOX games, and have it work in this one. Either way, what you're talking about is enhancing games, and it's something that is claimed every time we start talking about new consoles. It's also grade-A bullshit; you're lucky if a new console plays an old game properly at all. It was claimed with the 360, and guess what? Most XBOX games on the BC list are plagued with bugs. I think we all remember Sony's famous claim of aging SD content like fine wine, or some bullshit?

[KingGorilla]

How about, it is bullshit because hardware cannot allow it? Devs have enough problems dealing with having no Hard drive, let alone two completely different specs.

If this is true, it may be a genuine side of the disc-less console Sony and MS have always hinted at.

[Siraris]

What is it then? Unless the NextBox can play it's successor's games then it isn't forwards compatible.

The games themselves could be argued to be forward compatible, however, if they are coded to take advantage of the NextBox.

The headline is misleading.

It's not misleading, you are just choosing to think about it in one particular way. Does it even matter what it's called? It's the intended function that the name is referring to, the name is totally irrelevant.

Sorry if this seems rude, I just don't know why we're going back and forth arguing about the name, considering we don't even know if it will become reality or not.

[rein]

This isn't backwards compatibility...so perhaps that's why they've chosen to use a different and more descriptive term.

I only posted that because I was jealous that I wasn't the marketing genius that thought of forward compatible. If this isn't just a beefed up version of backward compatibility, can someone please clarify what they heck they are talking about?

[GigaFuzz]

It's not misleading, you are just choosing to think about it in one particular way. Does it even matter what it's called? It's the intended function that the name is referring to, the name is totally irrelevant.

In what other way can saying a console is forwards compatible be thought about? Backwards compatible means that it can play games from an older generation, yes? Therefore forwards compatible must mean that it can play games from a newer generation, yes?

I'm open to other meanings though.

Edit:

Sorry if this seems rude, I just don't know why we're going back and forth arguing about the name, considering we don't even know if it will become reality or not.

I thought it was traditional to argue points into the ground, no? :p
Maybe I am making a big deal about a small point, but to me 'forwards compatible' implies something other than this proposed feature. But it wouldn't be the first time marketing made up or used buzzwords incorrectly. :(

[Schnoogs]

What is it then? Unless the NextBox can play it's successor's games then it isn't forwards compatible.

The games themselves could be argued to be forward compatible, however, if they are coded to take advantage of the NextBox.

The headline is misleading.

NextBox also describes the platform not just the physical console you buy.

[GigaFuzz]

NextBox also describes the platform not just the physical console you buy.

So back to my earlier question:
Are they talking about Xbox 360 titles making use of the NextBox's features (i.e. future 360 titles will be coded specifically to take advantage of them), which the article seems to be implying?

If not, and the work is all done on the NextBox's end, then whoever started the whole 'forwards compatible' thing should be shot. :)

[yeti]

This is a great idea, if it's implemented right. The name (forwards compatibility) sucks however.

P.S. shit it's nice round here, the blue is so much easier on the eye then say...red:)

[Sirindu]

http://www.schiaccianoci.net/wp-content/uploads/2006/10/720.jpg

When I killed that thing in Halo 3, I wanted that to be the last time I ever saw it.

[pomeroy]

When I killed that thing in Halo 3, I wanted that to be the last time I ever saw it.

Nice. The whole "globe-like" concept art for future consoles has always looked stupid to me.

[MalReynolds]

that would be a horriable console ...

[Spigot]

BUt you could take it bowling!

I'm still thinking that someone really needs to explain the way that this is any different from backwards compatibility unless it's just a veiled way of talking about the fact that games will essentially be downloadable and will work on whatever future console you have.

[SPBTooL]

I've been saying this for more than a year. It would be much the same as when make generational jumps in hardware on a PC.

[Siraris]

BUt you could take it bowling!

I'm still thinking that someone really needs to explain the way that this is any different from backwards compatibility unless it's just a veiled way of talking about the fact that games will essentially be downloadable and will work on whatever future console you have.

Take a game like Gears of War. You have Gears of War that looks a certain way when it comes out in 2008. You then buy the NextBox in 2010 (let's say) and you say "I want to go back and play Gears of War again". You launch into the game on the new console, you will see an improvement in graphics, potentially in sound, and potentially in controllability (New word I made up). Let's say that the new Xbox has a new controller that's based on motion controls, you will be able to go in and use the new control scheme on Gears of War that was designed for the original 360 controller. In terms of graphics, you may have had poor draw distance, or low res textures on the ground, that would be improved in quality.

This is all posturing, since I have no idea if this is even true. But you would see improvements in the game all over the board if what the article says is true, as opposed to just playing the old game the way it was played years before.

[KingGorilla]

http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa237/dbrent19/img_48.gif

[Johan]

Give the failure that is BC with both Sony and MS (it's less than complete, to say the least), I'm extremely skeptical that there is any remote possibility of having older games not only work, but work with improvements.

[J Arcane]

Goddamn misuse of terminology is what this is to me.

That's not "forward compatibility", that's just backward compatibility with the promise of slightly more performance increase than the existing back compat consoles already offer.

Forward compatibility would mean something more like if the Xbox 1 could downsample 360 games somehow and play them, or if Wii games could somehow still run on a Gamecube.

[Xerxes]

Wouldn't forwards compatibility be next gen games working on an Xbox with like lower settings. Sure they'd look crappy but then people wouldn't have to spend $500 to play Gears 4.

[Troggles]

It's not forward compatibility of hardware, but forward compatibility of software. I think the major point they're trying to make is that software being made now will be better when moved forward. Of course, if you are talking about what the console itself is doing, that's backward compatibility.

Regardless of terms, it's awesome.

[MagGnome]

BUt you could take it bowling!

I'm still thinking that someone really needs to explain the way that this is any different from backwards compatibility unless it's just a veiled way of talking about the fact that games will essentially be downloadable and will work on whatever future console you have.


Agreed. This is just backwards compatibility guys, at least what this rumor implies.

Giving it some marketing buzzword doesn't change what it is.

The line someone quoted earlier from Sony about aging games like fine wine is a perfect fit for this discussion.

[JayVe]

Give the failure that is BC with both Sony and MS (it's less than complete, to say the least), I'm extremely skeptical that there is any remote possibility of having older games not only work, but work with improvements.

Hey. Sony actually got backwards compatibility right this gen (after a few patches) It does not upscale like the 360 does, but it looks a lot better than the PS2. The filters the PS3 applies to PS2 games make them look quite nice, and actually bearable on an HDTV.

Then they went ahead and screwed the pooch (and customers) by pulling the feature out. Now when new customers come into the store and buy a PS2 (which still happens) there is no upgrade path to eventually turn them into PS3 owners.

Backwards compatibility is great. I'm using the PS3 to help fill out my PS2 collection, and just introduced my nephew to F-Zero by playing the GameCube game on his Wii.

[Spigot]

Take a game like Gears of War. You have Gears of War that looks a certain way when it comes out in 2008. You then buy the NextBox in 2010 (let's say) and you say "I want to go back and play Gears of War again". You launch into the game on the new console, you will see an improvement in graphics, potentially in sound, and potentially in controllability (New word I made up). Let's say that the new Xbox has a new controller that's based on motion controls, you will be able to go in and use the new control scheme on Gears of War that was designed for the original 360 controller. In terms of graphics, you may have had poor draw distance, or low res textures on the ground, that would be improved in quality.

This is all posturing, since I have no idea if this is even true. But you would see improvements in the game all over the board if what the article says is true, as opposed to just playing the old game the way it was played years before.None of that seems any different than what backwards compatibility in consoles already does in one way or another. It's a little different and possibly a tiny bit more ambitious, but it's just a variation on the usual improved performance/tweaks that you get from backwards compatibility (at least on the Sony consoles).

I'm not trying to pick a fight or anything. I just think that calling backwards compatibility something else and acting like it is something new and exciting instead of an incremental step from what the PS2/PS3 did is a bit delusional.

Say the NextBox has motion controls. If it was able to somehow run Gears and let you use motion controls to swing your lancer around, that would be the work of the console or a slew of patches, not something inherent in Gears. And if it WAS something that was coded into Gears, then it wouldn't be much different than the way (as I mentioned earlier) that games late in the PS1's cycle incorporated tweaks that when viewed with texture smoothing, led to improved graphics.

It wasn't straight emulation a la the VC. It was a marked improvement. What you're talking about is essentially the same thing only on a slightly larger scale.

If you want to call it Forward Compatible, then a game that shipped for the NextBox would be able to play on the 360 only it wouldn't look nearly as nice/have as many features/etc. as it would on the NextBox. It'd be like being able to play a PS3 game on the PS2.

[Johan]

Backwards compatibility is great.

Preaching to the choir!

If Sony put in full hardware BC again, I would very, very seriously consider a PS3. Without it, I won't. I'll wait until next generation, when a humbler, poorer company is more desperate for my business.

[Spigot]

Preaching to the choir!

If Sony put in full hardware BC again, I would very, very seriously consider a PS3. Without it, I won't. I'll wait until next generation, when a humbler, poorer company is more desperate for my business.Have I ever mentioned that I'm so very, very happy I was able to find that 60 GB unit for sale at the local game shop? Because I am.

[JayVe]

Have I ever mentioned that I'm so very, very happy I was able to find that 60 GB unit for sale at the local game shop? Because I am.

I fear for the day mine breaks. Buying a new one won't even be an option unless it has BC. :(

Sony's Phil Harrison was actually right back in 2005 when he suggested that multiple versions of a console are confusing (http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/gdce-sony-unlikely-to-offer-two-versions-of-ps3-says-harrison).

Edit: Re-reading the article is really funny (http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/gdce-sony-unlikely-to-offer-two-versions-of-ps3-says-harrison), especially when it comes to the comments about how awesome the PlayStation Network would be.

Harrison did commend Microsoft with regard to the success of the Xbox Live service, telling the audience: "Microsoft has done a lot of things right, and there are certainly things that are going to form the model for many of the high quality consumer experiences that we will deliver with PS3."

"But I think our role is always to go beyond, to push further," he continued.

"I'm not in a position today to share with you all the details but PS3 was a network platform from the very beginning, and that is designed into every aspect of the machine."Classic!

[JayVe]

Update - After speaking to some people who are involved in graphical hardware development, this doesn't seem that far fetched. The way it would work is, a developer would code the game to say, "If X flag is set, EnableSuperHighDetail". The developer would have to know the graphical power of the next Xbox, and then they would just up the settings, like you would on a PC. So, for example, if you are playing Team Fortress 2 on 2x anti-aliasing, with medium detail, and draw distance set to low, and you updated your rig, you could then set it to 8x anti-aliasing, with high detail and far draw distance. The same would apply here, the developer would only have to add the code and any assets for it. This could also be patched into the game at a later time, so games that didn't take advantage could be patched to do so. Unfortunately, I don't see most developers taking the time, or investing the money, to update older games unless it's extremely easy and cost effective. At first, I questioned the value of this. Then I started remembering all the trouble we went through with this generational shift.

Developers:
A seamless development track, including a bridge between consoles, will really help developers transition from one system to the next. Games are way to expensive to make to have to throw out all your development tools just because the new console has a different architecture.

Consumers:
How awesome would it be to be able to buy a game near the end of the Xbox's life and KNOW that it will not only play on a newer system, but that it will be even BETTER!

Manufacturer:
What an excellent incentive to upgrade! Know all those games you've been buying over the past year? Well, but our new GameStation720 and they rock even HARDER with new textures and more detail! What an upgrade path you can offer consumers, even BEFORE you launch the next system. A brilliant way to hook people onto your next offering.

If this rumor is true, I'm really glad at least ONE of the console makers is thinking far enough ahead to make the next generational gap something easier for developers and consumers.

[roboninja]

So....consoles are becoming even more like PCs, but with fancy marketing words? Carry on.

[Deadend]

This makes sense to me.

I also don't see Backwards Compatibility being a problem for MS in the future, since they own everything in the 360. The reason the BC sucked on the 360 was that they had to emulate Nvidia owned hardware, but in a way that didn't infringe on Nvida.

[agentgray]

Great. Now they won't be supporting games before they are released. :D

Is this under-promising or over delivering?

[agentgray]

Preaching to the choir!

If Sony put in full hardware BC again, I would very, very seriously consider a PS3. Without it, I won't. I'll wait until next generation, when a humbler, poorer company is more desperate for my business.

I'm glad I got the MGS4 bundle. I've played nothing but PS2 games on it—with an occasional PS3 game.

We mostly use it for watching Blu-rays from Netflix however.