Recommended PC Hardware - Guide in OP, updated Nov 21 2011

[LiquidRain]

Last updated: November 21st, 2011

This post is meant to educate you on which parts to select for what reasons, but will often shy away from recommending specific parts on Newegg because A. Stuff gets outdated B. Stuff goes on sale C. I'm not paid to update this. However - after reading, you should be able to select your own parts after reading this post based on the knowledge presented here! I do not cover overclocking.

Platform Primer

Intel LGA 1155: Intel's current latest, running 2nd generation Core i processors, codename Sandy Bridge, or SNB. Note there is an LGA 1156 codename Lynnfield - it is not the same, and you definitely want the 1155, SNB parts. RAM for LGA 1155 is used in pairs, so you'll want to buy a matching set of RAM. We'll get to that.

AM3+: AMD's latest. Be careful to buy a motherboard with the "+" on the AM3 bit, don't buy just a normal AM3 board.

If you see any other type of socket/platform, steer clear. 1156, 1366, 2000-something, FM1, AM2. If you're looking in this thread, the above are what you want to know.

I highly recommend you stick with the Intel LGA 1155.


Platform Details

Intel LGA 1155 2nd Gen Core i7 2xxx Series "Sandy Bridge": I find these a bit overpriced, and for gaming, not worth it. If you're heavy into video editing (i.e. it's your profession) then you'll find use in these though.

Intel LGA 1155 2nd Gen Core i5 2xxx Series "Sandy Bridge": What you want.

Intel LGA 1155 2nd Gen Core i3 2xxx Series "Sandy Bridge": The cheaper cheaps are a great bargain for an ultra-low-power, dual-core system. Runs games well enough, great more for HTPC/small desktop use, but lacks the crazy punch the quad-cores have.

I don't have any pertinent information for AMD's processor line-up, it's currently a bit of a mess. Do your research if you plan on going with AMD.

Budget Allocation

Spending priorities, that is "if I have some extra cash in the budget, where should it go", are in my opinion the following:

CPU
Power Supply (PSU)
Motherboard (up to about $160)
Graphics (GPU)
Storage
Memory
Case
Accessories
Sound card

The above is a guideline - don't overspend on a single part and never buy top of the line.

The reason I put graphics at #4 is simple - you can easily upgrade a graphics card in a year's time and get something better, but you're going to be stuck with that CPU, PSU, and mobo for quite some time longer, not to mention it takes a significant amount of work to upgrade those parts compared to a GPU. And if you cheap out on a motherboard you'll be kicking yourself in 2-3 years when you're still stuck on USB 2.0 when the world has moved on to USB 3.0.

Motherboard Parts

There are three kinds of motherboards for Intel:
H67 - No overclocking allowed, but enables Intel's integrated graphics, which are more than enough for Blu-Ray playback et al for HTPC usage.
P67 - Allows for overclocking, but no Intel integrated graphics.
Z68 - Enables both overclocking and integrated graphics. If you want a powerhouse gaming machine now, and a silent HTPC later, this is the option you want. Otherwise, go with a cheaper P67 or H67 board.

As for what boards to get, it comes down to what manufacturer you trust. The most popular brand is ASUS, but they command a price premium. Gigabyte and MSI are follow-ups.

Just make sure you buy a board with at least two USB 3.0 ports. Thankfully that's not a large problem at the moment, most boards do come with them.

For budget choices (or for smaller PCs) select Micro-ATX motherboards. You have less choice for expansion (4 instead of 7 expansion slots), but can squeeze these motherboards into much smaller cases, and they often come in cheaper than their big brothers. (and honestly, how many of those 4 PCIe slots are you going to use? 2 for the graphics card, maaaaybe 1 for sound (and even then you can use a USB Xonar!), and what else?)

As a general rule, even when overclocking, you should not spend more than $160 on a motherboard. If you are, start looking at cheaper motherboards and consider just how much of that extra deluxe motherboard you really need. I guarantee you, you don't need any of that rubbish, and the money you save here can go somewhere else. Like your wallet. (an exception to this rule seems to be Z68 boards, they simply don't come cheap :/ )

Memory

Each platform supports a different maximum memory speed. This means you really don't need to buy anything faster for that CPU, because it makes absolutely zero difference! Here's the speed difference:

Intel: DDR3-1600.
AMD: DDR3-1333.

Now, about pairing RAM! Let's use my old friend Mr. Car Analogy. 2 lane highways are better than 1: they can carry more traffic. If you have 1 stick of RAM in your PC, the CPU only opens 1 lane. If you have 2, both lanes are open, and data zips across the highway faster. That's the idea behind dual channel RAM. So buy 2 sticks that are "paired" for eachother. "2x2GB" means "2 paired 2GB sticks", "2x4GB" means "2 paired 4GB sticks". Going with 4 sticks won't gain you more bandwidth, but you won't lose performance either, the CPU maxes out at 2 lanes.

Everyone should be buying 2x4GB of RAM at this point unless you're on an extremely tight budget. ($500 or less)

Lower timings for RAM are always better (those "9-8-8-18" numbers), however you're best getting slower timing RAM if it means you can step up your graphics or CPU. The performance difference is negligible as long as you stay in the same RAM speed rating. (eg. 4-5-5-16 1066MHz will barely get you more performance than 5-6-6-18 1066Mhz, I'm talking 0.2% increase) Fast, expensive "gamer" RAM is not a requirement. Get reasonable RAM at a reasonable price. The performance difference between expensive and reasonable RAM results in less-than-single-digit percent performance changes. It's not noticeable in games. Save that cash and put it into a CPU or GPU upgrade.

Corsair and OCZ are the good brands for affordable, but speedy, RAM.

Crucial and Kingston are good brands for value with good warranties.

Other brands exist (Geil, G.Skill, Mushkin, etc) and while none of them are bad (they all source the actual RAM chips from the same places), the above 4 are the big shots with the trustworthy RMA departments.

Make sure to get always get RAM in pairs. For AMD users, stay with 2 sticks of RAM maximum unless absolutely necessary. Intel users, I recommend 2 or 4 sticks.

GPU

SLI and Crossfire are generally bad ideas when purchasing new. These days, sub-$300 single cards can drive just any game at 1900x1200 with no problems with a whole lot of bells and whistles. Sub-$200 cards can still deliver most of that potency. The ones above $300 are there if you like to drive 30" monitors or are looking to take advantage of ATI's EyeFinity. (panoramic gaming across multiple monitors)

And of course both multi-GPU solutions face the usual caveats of uneven performance scaling, more noise, and a reliance on driver updates to unlock the 2nd GPU on new games. As with the GTX 580 we’d pick the simplicity of a single-GPU setup over the potential performance advantages of a multi-GPU setup, but this is as always a personal decision.

Anandtech discourages SLI. This speaks volumes. In 99% of cases you are better off with a single-card solution.

Here's my recommendation guide for Winter 2011, which is... well, the same as last year. New cards aren't due until Jan/Feb 2012.

Ultra High End ($450-$500): GTX 580 is the only real option. In my opinion, spending this much is only necessary if you're driving a 30" monitor and want maximum quality across the board.
High End ($350): The GTX 570 and Radeon 6970 are equivalent. Both cards trade blows, game-by-game, but on average are equal. To decide: 1. Do you prefer 1 brand over the other? 2. Do you use more than 2 monitors? (AMD's Eyefinity) 3. Do you want PhysX? (nVidia)
Sweet Spot ($200-$250): GTX 560 Ti or AMD 6950. Like the $350-$400 price point, these two cards one-up eachother based on which game is being played, but generally offer the same performance. Drives 1080p games maxed with 4xAA at 70+fps. Buy based on features, brand loyalty, price sensitivity, or cooling.
Mid-Range ($170): AMD 6870.
Lower Mid-Range ($150): AMD 6850. Still drives 1080p games at "high quality" (as opposed to "ultra quality") with 4xAA at 60+fps.
Lower Range ($120): AMD 5770. Still a 1080p driving card, just maybe turn down the bells and whistles a bit.
Bottom ($80-$100): AMD 5750.

A note about GPU coolers: There are a few kind of GPU coolers out there in the world.

"Blower" coolers have a single fan sitting at the front of the card (close to the front of your case) and big, long, sealed heatsinks. They vent 90% of the hot air of a card out the rear of your case directly. This is good if you're worried about heat, but be warned, they will likely wind up being the loudest thing in your PC!
"Standard" coolers have a single fan dead smack in the middle of the card, blowing heat directly down onto the graphics core. Heat gets moved 50% out the rear of your case, and 50% into the front of your case to be recycled. In standard cases with good airflow, they operate more quietly and have better cooling than blower style fans. Poor design or ventilation can choke your card under load, though.
Custom coolers: Original heatsink designs that come pre-installed and typically bump the card cost up $10-$20. Each design is different than the other - some may emphasize better cooling for overclocking (ASUS DirectCU) while others emphasize silence. (MSI Twin Frozr) Some don't have names at all, they just look different. Usually these designs include more than 1 fan, for more even cooling and quieter operation. (two fans spinning slowly are quieter than one fan spinning quickly)
Aftermarket: Arctic Cooling is pretty much the only manufacturer of aftermarket heatsinks. You have to buy them seperately and remove your GPU's original, but they offer the best cooling and silence. (provided your case is well ventilated, they do not do direct ventilation)

Some misc notes on GPUs:

If you're concerned about a specific game's performance, I suggest you do some in-depth research. The sites I check for benchmarks are TechReport and Anandtech.
Try and stay away from "superclocked" cards - they're a ripoff if you're paying a premium. You can achieve the overclocks yourself very easily with software if you find you really need the extra 5% performance.
Good brands are eVGA and XFX. They both offer lifetime warranties if you register your card after purchasing it. XFX sells both nVidia and ATI cards, though you will pay a bit of a premium for that peace of mind.

[LiquidRain]

Power Supplies

A lot of cases come with power supplies. It's a cheaper route, and if you're buying Antec or another reputable brand (Cooler Master, Silverstone, Lian Li), it's not a bad choice to stick with what comes with the case if you are short on cash.

If you are buying your own power supply, though:

NEVER SKIMP ON YOUR POWER SUPPLY. NEVER. It is a critical part of your system! With PSUs, you generally get what you pay for. In terms of the price vs. the quality, here's the breakdown of my recommended PSU brands:

Seasonic X series. $150+.
Corsair TX or HX series. $120+.
Seasonic S12-II or Corsair VX series. $80+.
Corsair CX series. $60+

Your wattage depends on what parts you're sticking in your PC. The most you'll need when selecting from this guide is a 620W-650W PSU, or you can select that if you want future compatibility. If you're picking mid-range parts you can ratchet down to 500-550W. If you're selecting budget parts (such as the 5770 or 5670 GPUs and low-end Core i5s) you can even go down to 450W.

I recommend you go with the most expensive PSU you can afford from the list I've put above. I personally use a Seasonic X 560W on a build that has an overclocked Core i5-2500k and a Radeon 6970, which just goes to show you that you really don't anywhere near as much wattage as marketers or "enthusiasts" would have you believe. :)

The reason I recommend sticking with the PSUs I've listed above are that they all have single-rail 12V, which means I don't need to answer any questions about blown PSUs. ;)

Disk Drives

WARNING: Due to flooding in Thailand, lots of HDD manufacturing facilities are under water, and HDD prices have skyrocketed. Only buy a HDD if you absolutely have to at the moment, otherwise, hold off.

Hard disk drives (HDDs) are Russian Roulette. I don't care who's told you what, or what you've experienced, all hard drives die and everyone's had a bad experience with manufacturer X. Pick your manufacturer of choice and go with them.

Most manufacturers have 2 lines of HDDs these days. Performance drives and "green" drives. "Green" drives spin at slower speeds, and are much quieter and geared for low power, shaving a few watts here and there for power. ("green" is bullshit, 2-4W amounts to nothing, but it's nice that they're very quiet!) Slower spinning drives allows HDD manufacturers to reach higher storage capacities much more cheaply, though, so for large amounts of storage "green" drives are fantastic for movies/music/etc.

Here's the 3 largest HDD manufacturers out there for the DIYer:
- Western Digital (http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&N=2000150014+50001306&name=Western+Digital) - The Black drives are much faster than anything Seagate has, and the Green drives are great.
- Samsung (http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&N=2000150014+50001077&name=SAMSUNG) - As of this writing the Spinpoint F3 1TB is the fastest drive on the market.
- Seagate (http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&N=2000150014+50001305&name=Seagate) - I'd buy WD for silence or the F3 for performance instead, but if a Seagate is on sale, great.

Solid State Drivers (SSDs)

SSDs offer insane performance improvements on their hard disk counterparts - but expect to pay a price premium for it. As a user of one, though, I cannot emphasize this enough - if you want luxury, there is no better option to make your PC feel faster than an SSD. It is the ultimate upgrade. Use one as a system/apps drive and leave the games on a HDD - for most games the performance advantage doesn't make too big a difference, and this way you can buy a 60-80GB SSD to make up for things.

Words cannot do justice to the performance difference of an SSD. (http://images.anandtech.com/graphs/thessdanthology_031809001858/18641.png)

The best SSD on the market is, by far, the Samsung 830 series. No other SSD as of this writing (Feb 2nd 2012) has the same price/performance/reliability - and the price is reasonable for an SSD for something that outperforms the other best-of-the-best. Seriously, look no further. Go search for "samsung 830" on Newegg - even at regular price it's a good deal.

Some warnings if you decide not to heed my advice above:

Sandforce 2 drives are notoriously unreliable and the cause of many BSODs. SandForce has very little QA compared to the giants like Samsung and Intel but SF is in the majority of SSDs due to their performance.
OCZ has a track record of having the highest failure rates.
OCZ uses slimey marketing tactics - they have swapped drive innards (decreasing performance) without changing model numbers in the past. (and then branded the better stuff "MAX IOPS" at a marked up price!)
When buying from a smaller company, the less likely you are to get timely firmware updates. (and considering the rash of BSODs going around with modern SSDs, this is a problem)
Intel drives are the most expensive but the most reliable - you won't get a BSOD, but you also won't get the best performance or best price. Just peace of mind.
That said, even Intel had an issue with one of their model lines. The only bulletproof SSDs known so far are from HDD manufacturers: Samsung and WD. (and WD's offerings are crap)

Concerning RAID

RAID is using multiple physical disks chained together to look like a single large disk to Windows.

Don't RAID for home use. It won't help your games load faster. It won't help ANYTHING load faster. Period. Get a solid state disk instead if you care that much. (RAIDing SSDs is another matter - it's actually useful!)

Technical explanation: The bottleneck on HDDs are seek times - how fast a drive can seek to a spot on a platter. For example, take a drive with an 11ms seek time. Now take two drives with 11ms seek times in RAID 0 (both drives act as 1 huge drive), or RAID 1 (both drives mirror, holding the same data). Even if your file that's loading is split across both drives, both drives still take 11ms to reach that file - just as long as a single drive. It doesn't halve it. Where RAID excels is what it does after the hard drive seeks, and that's raw megabytes per second throughput. It will help somewhat in your loading times, but realistically you're looking at a measly 5% performance gain. While with RAID mirroring (2 drives host the same data set) you get increased system reliability, repeat after me: RAID is not backup. RAID is not backup. RAID is not backup. You're better off using a 2nd disk as an occasional backup sync than an always-on mirror. With RAID 0, both drives acting as 1 large drive, when 1 drive fails you lose everything. RAID 1 is not backup, RAID 0 dramatically increases your chance of system failure and data loss.

If you don't believe my statements above, there (http://www.anandtech.com/storage/showdoc.aspx?i=2974&p=5) are plenty (http://www.bestpricecomputers.co.uk/reviews/home-pc-raid/) of other (http://www.pugetsystems.com/articles?&id=29) very reputable (http://faq.storagereview.com/tiki-index.php?page=SingleDriveVsRaid0) review sites (http://images.anandtech.com/graphs/hitachraidupdate_04220790421/14495.png) that argue (http://images.anandtech.com/graphs/hitachraidupdate_04220790421/14475.png) my point (http://images.anandtech.com/graphs/hitachraidupdate_04220790421/14474.png) for me. (http://images.anandtech.com/graphs/hitachraidupdate_04220790421/14498.png)

Buy an SSD if you're that concerned with disk performance. An SSD will murder any RAID configuration on performance.

Sound Card

These days, upgrading your soundcard for performance reasons is a non-issue. Windows Vista and Windows 7 mix all sound in software anyway - so hardware acceleration simply doesn't exist anymore! The reason to upgrade is audio quality, which is a HUGE boost with these cards, or Dolby Digital in and out if you bought a motherboard that doesn't support it. If you're happy with onboard sound, I suggest staying with it, as you can cut a corner here and still be happy.

Now: Creative Labs is an awful company. They lawsuit everyone into oblivion, produce horribly incompatible products, offer no customer support, and at one point threatened to sue somebody who used a hex editor to fix their own crappy, buggy drivers. Creative is a horrible company and I refuse to recommend any of their products.

The best audio cards these days are made by ASUS, and there's 2 options worth considering:

Xonar DG (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16829132020) - $30ish and offers fantastic sound for the price. If you use headphones at all, this card will provide a much cleaner, better audio experience than onboard audio.

Xonar DS (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16829132006) - $70ish. Offers what the Xonar DG has, and also supports Dolby Digital Live encoding so that you can output all audio from your PC in DD 5.1. Awesome for couch-gaming or a HTPC.

Xonar U3 (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16829132022) - $45ish USB soundcard that offers stellar headphone quality and Dolby Digital Live in the form of an optical output!

[LiquidRain]

Case

Due to minor differences in configuration/colours, and small updates changing product model numbers, it's hard to keep up direct links to cases, but here are some good recommendations for specific lines or cases:

Antec x00 Gamer Series - The Antec 300 and 900 are great, go-to cases with excellent cooling performance, but can be very loud.
Antec Solo II - Anandtech taglined this case as "silence at any cost". Not the easiest build, not the best cooling (but still good!), and not the cheapest, but if you want a quiet normal-size PC this your darling.
Antec P280 Series - Fantastic thermals, noise levels, design, everything. Both cool and quiet, the only downside is the sheer size. It's not small.
Corsair Carbide series - Pick a price range and Corsair has you covered. All their cases are well thought out, appropriately priced, and strike a balance, focusing 60% on cooling and 40% on noise reduction.
Fractal Design's Define R3 - A popular choice amongst COGgers, it strikes a 50/50 balance between cooling and noise.
Silverstone Temjin TJ08-E - My personal MicroATX weapon of choice. At all times it is cool, quiet, and affordable, but building it is not for the faint of heart. (in fact, any Silverstone case is not for the faint of heart)

There are a litany of cases for you to choose from - try to stick to major brands such as Antec, who for ages has been the gold standard in PC cases. If you're on a budget, Cooler Master makes excellent budget cases. A little more on the expensive side, try Lian Li or Silverstone.

Stay away from off-brand cheap cases - they have sharp, unrolled steel edges that you can cut yourself on while building, and the steel is often so thin it'll bend a lot while you build in it. If you're building for the first time, you really want to stay away from the cheap guys.

Some cases have built-in power supplies. If it's Antec or maybe even Corsair, great, but if there's no known brand on that power supply you may not be getting quite as good a deal as you may think. Cheap power supplies will flake out on you and can provide nasty surprises.

Heatsinks and Fans

If you don't care at all about noise and don't plan on overclocking at all, or only plan on overclocking a little, my recommendation is to not pick up a new heatsink at all.

If you want something quieter and don't plan much on overclocking, a solid choice is the affordable $30 Cooler Master Hyper 212+ (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835103065).

And remember, put large heatsinks on your CPU before you put the motherboard in the case.

For performance (or silence) at any cost Silent PC Review, amongst others, do a far better job of these reviews than I ever could. Remember: the best air coolers can be paired with a high-flow fan for ultimate performance, or a low-flow fan for ultimate silence. Good coolers can deliver either.

Here, have a link to SPCR's Heatsink Reference Sheet (http://www.silentpcreview.com/article30-page1.html).

For fans, Scythe Slipstream fans are simply the best around. They're affordable ($10-$12 each) and there's a full range of them. The Slipstream L (low) fans are good for simply plugging in and running for pushing some air silently. The Slipstream M (medium) fans are the best for hooking up to a motherboard fan plug or as part of a CPU cooler - they're inaudible when set to 50-60% speed and move more air than an L, but can be cranked up to move quite a bit of air when the CPU kicks in. The Slipstream H is for cooling at the cost of noise. Personally, my case is full of nothing but Slipstream M fans.

For 80mm or 92mm, try and track down Nexus or Yate Loon fans. They're a good benchmark for speed/noise.

Commodity Parts - DVD-RWs, Floppy Drives, Card Readers, Etc...

Buy whatever. They're all the same. :p A $30 DVD-RW from Lite-On will do the same job as the $100 Plextor.

Keyboards and Mice

This is very, very subjective. The finest suggestion I can make is to head down to your local Best Buy to the mouse/keyboard rack and look at them and try them out. It may even be wise to buy them locally, with a good return policy, in case the mouse or keyboard feels great at first but you find it uncomfortable after a few days. This'll give you the option to take it back and exchange it. It's like buying a pair of shoes - you'll be using these peripherals a LOT, and you want to make sure you're satisfied!

Around here though, the Logitech G5 or MX500 series is a stand-by of many gamers. If you're like me, you may prefer a Microsoft mouse, in which the MS-designed, Razer-powered Habu is superb. Razer mice are also exceptional, so you may want to try those.

The standard premium gaming keyboard these days is the Logitech G15. If you want something a little more toned down and classy, Saitek, Microsoft, and Razer make quality products.

Maybe you want something a little different though. That clickity-clacky feeling of old, the wonderful age of mechanical keyboards. The classic IBM Model M: heavier than Rush Limbaugh, can be used to harm people, it's virtually indestructible, and it's sold brand new by Unicomp. (http://pckeyboards.stores.yahoo.net/keyboards.html) Now that's old-school. More modern flavours of these keyboards can be found with the ABS M1 (http://techreport.com/articles.x/16616) and the Das Keyboard. (http://techreport.com/articles.x/16138)

Audio - Speakers, Mics, Headphones

Microphones are commodity products. Any cheap $10-$20 mic will do in a game, which is completely highlighted by the fact that my $100 compressor mic makes me sound just as bad as everyone else in TF2. :) If you do a lot of Fraps, you may want to invest in a USB microphone, which typically cost $10-$20 more than your regular mic. It will enable you to record Fraps movies with audio while still retaining your ability to talk in a multiplayer game.

For headphones and speakers, you may be best off asking the folks in the home theatre section of COG. I'll chime with a hearty recommendation if you do, but that's outside the scope of this thread.

Zalman makes an interesting $10 microphone that clips on to your headphone wire and has clamps to stay (more or less) snug on your headphone wire. I use it, and it works well.

After the Build

Before you do anything, anything with your PC, you want to run Memtest86+ (http://www.memtest.org/) for at least one pass (overnight for a sure-fire test) for your CPU and memory, and the Hitachi Drive Fitness Tool (http://www.hitachigst.com/hdd/support/download.htm) if you use a hard drive. (do not run that tool on a solid state disk, that is a recipe for disaster) Yes, brand new parts can certainly already be bad out of the box, and it's imperative you test them before you try to diagnose any other problems. The sooner you test, the better, as you may be able to get rapid RMA/exchange from your retailer.

After you've done that, head into your BIOS and check through settings. You may find some nice options to enable automatic CPU fan management to keep your PC quiet. (though a lot of motherboards ship with that enabled by default these days)

When in Windows, a handy dandy program to tweak your graphics card or monitor your performance is MSI Afterburner. (http://event.msi.com/vga/afterburner/download.htm) You don't need an MSI card to run the program and it works for Radeon and GeForce cards. You can set your own GPU fan management levels, overclock your card, or observe temperatures and GPU usage.

[LiquidRain]

Monitors

Since the Anandtech LCD thread has fallen out of date, I'll take it upon myself to teach thee The Way of the Premium Monitor.

Here are the following factors to think about when gauging a monitor:

Response Times - Though largely exaggerated by most manufacturers, you will generally get a better response time from a 2ms monitor than an 8ms monitor.
Contrast Ratios - Careful, not DYNAMIC contrast ratio but the actual contrast ratio of the monitor. Contrast is defined by how how much range there is between the whitest and the blackest colour of the monitor.
Gamut - In layman's terms, colour range, or saturation. Are the colours washed out, or do they just pop out of the screen? Does the monitor fake full-colour, or can it reproduce more colours than we can recognize? Can you really see the difference between a really deep red and a normal red?
Black levels - How dark are the blacks on this monitor?
Colour Accuracy - Is the red a red, or more of a darker pink? When you see an alternating colour pattern (think iTunes) is there a clear distinction between the 2 sets of background colours? (a good example is here on COG: look at the post header where the date is right above my name in a post, then look at the post content's background: on an excellent monitor the difference is night and day, on a poorer monitor the 2 will look more similar) Ties in with contrast ratio.
Banding - When there's a gradient colour, is the gradient faithfully reproduced or are there parts that just don't blend?
Input lag - How long does the monitor take to process the signal coming from the PC? Those of you with HDTVs who have had to calibrate Rock Band or Guitar Hero know what I'm talking about!
Cost.

You have to decide what's most important to you. Graphic artists will always want the best contrast, the largest gamut, and the best colour reproduction. Gamers, or people who are sensitive to an image smearing all over the screen, will care the most about response time.

So how do you know what monitor has what quality? Fortunately that's fairly easy! There are 3 types of LCDs out there, and each one has its strengths and weaknesses. Let's take a look see:

TN Panels - Your standard, affordable monitor, with the fastest response times. Cheap and plentiful, if a monitor does not say what kind of LCD it is, it's TN. You pay for what you get though: The worst gamut, the worst contrast ratios, the worst colour accuracy, and exhibits gradient banding. Input lag varies per monitor/model.
PVA Panels - The slowest response times, but the best black levels and the best colours with a great, balanced contrast ratio. PVA monitors historically have the most input lag.
IPS Panels - Medium response times, good colour, eye-popping contrast, OK black levels, good gamut. Input lag varies per monitor/model.
e-IPS Panels - A cheaper variant on the IPS panel, but exhibits gradient banding and loses some colour accuracy.

The tl;dr version is: TN panels good for fast response times but have the worst image quality, PVA panels good for graphic/photography work and have the best image quality but the worst response time, IPS panels are jack of all trades master of none, e-IPS panels if you want something better than TN but don't want to shell out for PVA or IPS.

TN panels are cheap. Your standard $200 for a 24" kind of monitor.
IPS panels are a bit more expensive. You can get 22" or 23" for about $400-$500.
e-IPS panels are usually available from Dell and cost $250-$300 or so for a 23".
PVA panels are, these days, usually only on the large 28" or 30" panels. And prepare to pay a pretty penny for those. Upwards of $700-$1200.

My personal pick is an IPS or e-IPS panel. Compared to a TN image, the colour absolute pops off the screen, the response times (6ms) are excellent and to my eyes not noticeably worse than the response times of a TN panel, and Dell bundles their IPS monitors with excellent stands that you can rotate. Look around the the Dell 2209WA or the 2311H, their 22" 1680x1050 and 23" 1980x1080 IPS models. The 2209WA (full IPS) in particular has phenomenal image quality, with the 23" model (e-IPS) a runner-up. I have to emphasize: purchasing an IPS panel is a luxury. Put side-by-side with a normal LCD monitor, you will very quickly see why I recommend these panels. I absolutely love and abide by my two Dell IPS monitors, they are way better than a TN. There's a very good reason Apple uses IPS panels in all their products, right down to the iPhone and iPad.

However, if you're looking to save money or just want a large 24" and screw the image quality, my suggestion is go to Newegg and find a monitor you think you'd like to have. Google for a review and google "[monitor model] input lag" and see if you get anything. (notably, the [H]ard forum goers tend to be tough on their monitors and measure these kinds of things, so if you see search results from there check it out) If you can't find anything but the monitor is cheap and still attractive to you - just buy it. The difference between TN monitors is small as long as you stay away from those that also bill themselves as HDTVs. (those will have monstrous input lag) Chances are if you're not convinced by my professed unending love for IPS panels, you won't have any issues with image quality on a TN, and just about any ol' regular one will do you fine.

If you're looking for a PVA panel after all this - I'm assuming you know enough about your monitor requirements and work flow (since at this point I'll assume you're doing professional work) to purchase your own. There are also very few options in this category, all expensive, and it shouldn't be difficult to find reviews on your own.

[Rogue_hunter]

The only graphics card you need, a RIVA TNT2. OH YEAH!

[Bone]

Can all PC recommendations include a packet of Magic? It comes in tube and syringe form.

[squirrelTactics]

Can all PC recommendations include a packet of Magic? It comes in tube and syringe form.

Mine came in powder-form. Just add water!

[Bone]

It's true but I'm no good with the powdered Magic- I just make a mess everywhere.

[Ghostbear]

It's true but I'm no good with the powdered Magic- I just make a mess everywhere.

Seriously, we tried to get this guy to make some kool aid. Lets just say that's why he burst through that wall.

[Deadend]

Hey guys! No talk about magic! The thread will be locked!!!

Whoops, forgot where we are now. Blast off!

I recommend CPUs and GPUs that are around $200 on Newegg.

[Xerxes]

I was thinking about doing this thread. I was recently looking at machines. I was close to building a AMD/ATI based system. Saved a little money but is it worth it? All and all you'd probably be able to play <cough>Crysis<cough> just about the same with some of the latest stuff around.

[Banacek]

The only graphics card you need, a RIVA TNT2. OH YEAH!

Please, it's all about the Voodoo Banshee. 2D and 3D ON ONE CARD!

[Ancalagon]

Please, it's all about the Voodoo Banshee. 2D and 3D ON ONE CARD!

With a P200 MMX! Oh the mighty power of MMX!

(MMX stands for Magic Multimedia Xtensions, its the first time magic and computers mixed, the rest is history)

[total]

If you aren't running a Cyrix you don't know what's up.

[DylonCorp]

I was just looking for this thread on IM.

[iHap]

It's all about the Magic PC's guys. Nothing else matter.

[SilentScreams]

I'm glad this thread is (going to be) back.
Even though I've just upgraded to a beast of a PC, I plan to look to this thread when my current overkill becomes underwhelming in about a year :)

[axion]

When should I upgrade my 8800GT?

[muddi900]

When should I upgrade my 8800GT?

Now.

too short.

[LiquidRain]

An 8800GT is still a good card. If you're happy with currently gaming on it, keep it!

Here's a link to a working version of my thread:

http://www.playitreviewit.com/forums/showthread.php?t=200

[NoName]

Yay for LiquidRain's PC hardware thread. It certainly saves me time in doing hardware research :D.

[PathMaster]

Keep up the great work and updates!

[axion]

Oops wrong thread...

I was mostly kidding about the card, since I know the longer I wait the better the gains.

[bryan]

I demand stickification.

[Xerxes]

$225 VisionTek - ATI RADEON HD4870 (http://www.colonyofgamers.com/cogforums/showthread.php?t=580)

[Johan]

I'm pretty excited because, with a three-year-old computer, I was able, by adding a new PSU and a Radeon 4850, to get it up to speed for just about anything on the market at minimum specs, and most stuff at recommended.

First time I've ever messed with the guts of my computer, too. I felt quite proud that I didn't blow it up! :) It took $300 to get it "gaming" with those two components. Everything else was stock and I had to have with my computer anyway, so the $300 is the only gaming expense as I see it..

If I can do it, anyone can.

[muddi900]

I'm pretty excited because, with a three-year-old computer, I was able, by adding a new PSU and a Radeon 4850, to get it up to speed for just about anything on the market at minimum specs, and most stuff at recommended.

First time I've ever messed with the guts of my computer, too. I felt quite proud that I didn't blow it up! :) It took $300 to get it "gaming" with those two components. Everything else was stock and I had to have with my computer anyway, so the $300 is the only gaming expense as I see it..

If I can do it, anyone can.

Congratulations. For the first time, you didn't post "I'm too old" in a technology thread.:p

I keed. Good for you.

[LiquidRain]

Still having server errors posting the thread. Gonna try to talk to bap to get this resolved. :)

[Xerxes]

Is a AMD Phenom X4 9950 Black Edition 2.6GHz Quad-Core CPU for $140 a good deal? Performance /price wise, is it a good deal.

[LiquidRain]

It matches the Q6600 in speed and price, normal retail is around ~170. It's a very good chip if you want quad core on a budget and that's a good price. Make sure you have or are going to get a motherboard that can support it though - it's a bit of a power hog. What do you have now and what do you intend to get out of upgrading?

[Xerxes]

It matches the Q6600 in speed and price, normal retail is around ~170. It's a very good chip if you want quad core on a budget and that's a good price. Make sure you have or are going to get a motherboard that can support it though - it's a bit of a power hog. What do you have now and what do you intend to get out of upgrading?

I'd be in the market of building from scratch.

I don't have a Mobo in mind but I would be thinking hd 4870.

[LiquidRain]

I'd be in the market of building from scratch.

I don't have a Mobo in mind but I would be thinking hd 4870.
What's your budget?

[Xerxes]

What's your budget?

What's a budget? :confused:

I'm in like mega debt. So I'm probably going to have one last hooray purchase before for going cold.

[Xerxes]

Well I have to move on the chip by Tuesday. Know of a great A2 mobo?

[LiquidRain]

I can't say I do - pick an ASUS motherboard with a 700 series chipset that fits your budget and needs.

[SilentScreams]

I'm having all sorts of compatibility issues with my new setup, namely the Abit IX48-GT3 is apparently incompatible with the Radeon HD4870 X2 (it doesn't like the X2 cards).
So I'm having to get another motherboard, but I already have DDR3 RAM, and most other DDR3 boards are out of my price range at the moment.

So I guess my question is twofold:
1) Can you recommend a decent priced board that supports DDR3 1333 and works with a 4870 X2?
2) Or should I return the RAM too and get DDR2? Is the difference big?

Edit: Also, is there a technical reason why my motherboard can't run the 4870 X2. From my understanding it should (I heard that any Crossfire board would do it), but is there something listed in the specs to look out for?

[LiquidRain]

quick search: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813121348

or maybe look through this product search: clicky clicky (http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&N=2000200280+1387934428&Configurator=&Subcategory=280&description=&Ntk=&SpeTabStoreType=&srchInDesc=)

That ASUS one looks good

[SilentScreams]

The ASUS one does look nice.
I was looking at X48 mobos, which would explain why that one didn't show up in my search.

What is the difference between P45 and X48? (Damn, I'm editing a lot today)

[LiquidRain]

Nothing unless you plan on spending every day overclocking your system to extremes. And no offense, but if you're in this thread asking me about hardware, I'm more than willing to bet you aren't. :)

Don't get suckered in by expensive, premium parts. I'm pulling the numbers out of my ass, but generally, a $1,500 system will only get 10% better performance than a $1,000 one despite the cost difference.

[LiquidRain]

May I request a sticky now that I was able to post this here without getting a 500 server error? :)

I'll update the post when I have an hour or two with all the latest updates, including my recommendation against buying Core i7.

[PathMaster]

Sticky please!!!

[Rogue_hunter]

Stickification!

[TrackZero]

Stickification!

Guide has been stickied. Nice writeup LR.

[LiquidRain]

Thanks! (short)

[PathMaster]

Guide has been stickied. Nice writeup LR.

Woo thanks.

[Brady]

Just finished ordering my new system. I was starting to upgrade my old one, but that lead to upgrading the whole thing... I'm pretty excited.

Old system:
Pentium 4 3ghz
ATI Radeon 9800
Asus P4C800 Deluxe Mobo
2 x 512mb DDR in a Dual Channel config (1gig total)
M-Audio Delta 1010 soundcard

I dropped like 2 grand on that system when I bought it....

Now this is my new set up:
Intel Core2Quad Q6600 (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819115017)
Nvidia 9800 GTX+ 512MB (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814130376) (Upgrading from one 9800 to another, haha)
Gigabyte UD3R Mobo (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813128359)
2 x 2GB DDR2 Ram in Dual Channel (4GB total)
OCZ 600W modular power supply (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817341017)
M-Audio Delta 1010 soundcard (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16829121011) (carry over from the old pc. It is a recording sound card with 10 inputs and 10 outputs)
1 160GB 7200 WD Sata drive (for the os)
1 1TB WD Sata drive (media)
Logitech G15 keyboard (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16823126034) (I've been using a 6 year old MS one, Excited!!!)
Logitech G7 Mouse (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16826104203) (Ohhhh I miss my old MX500, been using a wired MS mouse)



Yeah, its been a while since I've upgraded, definitely excited. Sadly really the only game I play is WoW... so I'm pretty sure I'll max those settings out. I might pick up Fallout 3.

Thanks for your guide, it was helpful.

[LiquidRain]

Why did you pick the Q6600? Did you get a deal? It's a fairly old processor, Intel's first quad core,and the Q9xxx series run faster and MUCH cooler at much less power.

Otherwise, solid picks. Hope you have enough room in the case for the 9800 GTX+. I would have gotten an ATI 4830 or 4850, but really it's a wash, and if you prefer nVidia it's not a bad pick.

[Jackel]

I'm looking at putting together a new build with any savings I can find through the black friday deals. I'm on a fairly tight budget with the economy the way it is. The key thing is I want it to have Dolby Digital Live support on the motherboard so I can run it through optical toslink to my receiver. (I'll also use the the multi-channel in on it, but I'd like support for both).

Right now I'm looking at (depending on what i can get for sale)

Intel Q6600 (budget ~150)
ATI Radeon 4850 512mb
Gigabyte UD3P
600W power supply (Budget 80 - 100)
4 GB (2x2GB) Ram at 1066 (Budget 100)


I already have a keyboard / mouse, and I'm going to wait on buying a dvd burner until I can find a blu-ray drive for cheap, as I already have an external burner.

As for soundcard, I'm hoping that the Realtek w/ DDL will be good enough for my needs, otherwise I'll pick up a sound card later on.

I already have a 1TB HD at home I'll be using.

Any suggestions Liquid?

I looked at the E8400 instead of the Q6600 but I plan on OC'ing the Q6600 to at least 3Ghz so i figured that would be the better Futureproofing choice.

edit: I'm also very limited on the stores I can purchase from. Because I live in Alaska, shipping is a bitch with places like NewEgg (free shipping doesn't apply and usually costs about 20 - 30$.) So I have to use Amazon / Buy.com for as much of the stuff as I can as they have free shipping to alaska.

[Brady]

Why did you pick the Q6600? Did you get a deal? It's a fairly old processor, Intel's first quad core,and the Q9xxx series run faster and MUCH cooler at much less power.

Otherwise, solid picks. Hope you have enough room in the case for the 9800 GTX+. I would have gotten an ATI 4830 or 4850, but really it's a wash, and if you prefer nVidia it's not a bad pick.

I was comparing the Q6600 and the Q9300 for around the same pricepoints... 180 vs 250 (well still a 70 dollar diff). I read several forum posts at hard ocp and tomshardware. Everyone says go Q6600 due to 1. The price. 2. It is much better for overclocking, so you'll get the same or better performance from the Q6600. They were talking about how the Q9300 has a 7.5x multiplier making it difficult to overclock without really high end mobos and ram. 3. It has a larger cache.

You can step up to the Q9450 which has the same cache as the Q6600 which could be overclocked and do much better than the Q6600, but at that point it is more than 100 than I spent on the Q6600. For a moderately priced budget system, it just wasnt worth it.

I think it will suit me well... and if not, I can always make an upgrade later once some of the higher end Q9xx chips come down in price.

And as far as the vid card goes. I am indeed a little worried about the card fitting in my case... The last 3 cards I've owned have all been ATI and I really do enjoy them. I've heard good things about Nvidias 9800 series so I thought I'd give it a try.

[LiquidRain]

Fair enough Brady. The 9800 series is OK, it'll do you well.

Jackel: That looks good!

[SilentScreams]

Speaking of card sizes...anyone thinking of picking up the 4870X2, be warned, it's freaking huge.
It's pretty much the size of my forearm. I've never seen such a massive card. Puts out an insane amount of heat too.
Worst part is that I can't fit my liquid cooling system in now, as the card reaches almost all the way to the front of my case and leaves no room for the reservoir or pump.

Beast of a card though. Coupled with my Q9550 it destroys Far Cry 2 and Crysis.

[PathMaster]

Speaking of card sizes...anyone thinking of picking up the 4870X2, be warned, it's freaking huge.
It's pretty much the size of my forearm. I've never seen such a massive card. Puts out an insane amount of heat too.
Worst part is that I can't fit my liquid cooling system in now, as the card reaches almost all the way to the front of my case and leaves no room for the reservoir or pump.

Beast of a card though. Coupled with my Q9550 it destroys Far Cry 2 and Crysis.

What case do you have?

[LiquidRain]

Speaking of card sizes...anyone thinking of picking up the 4870X2, be warned, it's freaking huge.
It's pretty much the size of my forearm. I've never seen such a massive card. Puts out an insane amount of heat too.
Worst part is that I can't fit my liquid cooling system in now, as the card reaches almost all the way to the front of my case and leaves no room for the reservoir or pump.

Beast of a card though. Coupled with my Q9550 it destroys Far Cry 2 and Crysis.
9800GTX, 9800GX2, GTX 260, GTX 280, and regular 4870s are all that size. 4850s, 4830s and 9800GTs are about an inch shorter, while any x600 class is going to be normal sized.

[Grifter]

I was comparing the Q6600 and the Q9300 for around the same pricepoints... 180 vs 250 (well still a 70 dollar diff). I read several forum posts at hard ocp and tomshardware. Everyone says go Q6600 due to 1. The price. 2. It is much better for overclocking, so you'll get the same or better performance from the Q6600. They were talking about how the Q9300 has a 7.5x multiplier making it difficult to overclock without really high end mobos and ram. 3. It has a larger cache.

You can step up to the Q9450 which has the same cache as the Q6600 which could be overclocked and do much better than the Q6600, but at that point it is more than 100 than I spent on the Q6600. For a moderately priced budget system, it just wasnt worth it.

I think it will suit me well... and if not, I can always make an upgrade later once some of the higher end Q9xx chips come down in price.

And as far as the vid card goes. I am indeed a little worried about the card fitting in my case... The last 3 cards I've owned have all been ATI and I really do enjoy them. I've heard good things about Nvidias 9800 series so I thought I'd give it a try.

Unless you are doing some kind of video editing or professional 3D rendering I would spend the money on a faster dual core, an E8400 at 4Ghz will get you better performance than a Q6600 at 3GHz in most games.

I would also look into spending the extra $50 and get a GTX260, the performance difference between the two cards is worth much more than $50.

As far as the PSU goes you would be much better off using one of these

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817703005

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817371010

The OCZs aren't bad but they still have voltage fluctuation issues especially at the higher wattage levels. You probably won't ever stress it enough to have to worry about it but I feel if your going to spend roughly the same amount of money anyway you may as well grab a PSU that you don't have to worry about no matter what kind of PC it's in.

[Rogue_hunter]

Speaking of card sizes...anyone thinking of picking up the 4870X2, be warned, it's freaking huge.
It's pretty much the size of my forearm. I've never seen such a massive card. Puts out an insane amount of heat too.
Worst part is that I can't fit my liquid cooling system in now, as the card reaches almost all the way to the front of my case and leaves no room for the reservoir or pump.

Beast of a card though. Coupled with my Q9550 it destroys Far Cry 2 and Crysis.

Yeah, the regular 4870 is huge, as long as the motherboard, or a person's forearm. I had also never seen a card so large, but since I'm just aircooling, it really only effects my cable routing. Two 6-pin connectors makes my ATX power cable have to fight for position.

EDIT: Jackel, the system looks good. Though, you could go with the DS3L and save about $20 and mildly better positioning for the inputs. From what I could tell, all the current crop of $100+ Gigabyte boards have the optical out onboard anyways, right below the PS/2 ports.

[SilentScreams]

What case do you have?

It's the Thermaltake Kandalf LCS. (http://www.scan.co.uk/Products/Thermaltake-Kandalf-LCS-VD4000BWS-Black-Aluminum-Case-with-Windows-Liquid-Cooling-w-o-PSU)

I didn't realize most of the new cards were this size. My most recent card before this was an X1650.

Fortunately, I have enough fans that the lack of liquid cooling doesn't seem to be causing any overheating issues.
Then again, I've only had the thing for about a month, so I don't know how it'll go in the long run.

[LiquidRain]

I run a GTX 260, an old 90nm Athlon64 X2 that's overclocked (110W TDP), a single HDD, and an ASUS Xonar D2X on a first generation nForce 4 board. (which are notorious for running hot as hell, and the tower of a heatsink on my northbridge proves it)

All I have for fans are my Seasonic S12-II quiet PSU (1 slow fan), a 120mm slow fan exhaust (1000rpm), a 92mm slow fan intake (1000rpm again), and the GTX 260's stock cooler. My CPU fan is turned off unless I'm playing games - a large heatsink and Cool 'n' Quiet let me run it passively. My case has no extra holes, no windows, nothing. You think it'd be a cooling nightmare.

All temps are actually below normal.

People think you need some kind of wind tunnel to cool a PC properly. You don't. Just use a can of compressed air once every few months to keep the heatsinks clean of dust buildup. (you don't have to wipe it down - just make sure it's not clogged with dust, a regular blast from a compressed air can is enough) That and any airflow at all, even from slow 1000rpm fans, is enough to keep them cool in a normal environment.

I realize the 4870 X2 (any X2 card really) gets especially toasty, but your computer is not about to die from heat unless you let it fall into disrepair or live in a furnace. GPUs crank their fans when they have to, as do CPU fans and PSU fans, so I'm sure there's plenty of cooling overhead in your PC, and even if that weren't enough, CPUs all autothrottle on overheating and GPUs will make your program crash before the GPU manages to kill itself.

Short version: you have nothing to worry about.

[Bone]

People think you need some kind of wind tunnel to cool a PC properly. You don't. Just use a can of compressed air once every few months to keep the heatsinks clean of dust buildup. (you don't have to wipe it down - just make sure it's not clogged with dust, a regular blast from a compressed air can is enough) That and any airflow at all, even from slow 1000rpm fans, is enough to keep them cool in a normal environment.

I realize the 4870 X2 (any X2 card really) gets especially toasty, but your computer is not about to die from heat unless you let it fall into disrepair or live in a furnace. GPUs crank their fans when they have to, as do CPU fans and PSU fans, so I'm sure there's plenty of cooling overhead in your PC, and even if that weren't enough, CPUs all autothrottle on overheating and GPUs will make your program crash before the GPU manages to kill itself.

Short version: you have nothing to worry about.This applies to people in northern regions. But in Texas, sometimes a wind tunnel is the only thing you can do to save a PC. Unless you can afford to air condition your home to 74 degrees all the time, the PC becomes a space heater.

[KJAX]

Great thread all around as I continue to slap together my new build. These are the parts I have so far:

Antec Three Hundred Case
Antec Earthwatts 650 PSU
2 Gig OCZ DDR2 1066 RAM
LG DVD/CD Burner
Free Copy of Windows Server 2008 (Dreamspark (https://www.dreamspark.com/default.aspx) deal although I may just snag Vista Ultimate for $60 at a later time or Windows XP Pro)

Parts being carried over from current build:

ATI 1800 XL 256MB Card (It still gets the job done in most of the current games; either the 4850 or 4870 is next)
500 GB Western Digital and 160 Seagate Hard Drives (The 160 GB will likely be the Windows Drive if I don't set up separate partitions)
Logitech G15 Keyboard (I still have the original version of the "gamers" keyboard and I'll have it until something better comes out)
19in KDS CRT Monitor (Nope, I have yet to move on to LCDs but when I do, at least a 22 inch will be required)
Dynex USB Mouse (Just snagged this recently from Best Buy. Never been into the gamers' mice but then again, I spend most of my time playing Final Fantasy Online with some UT3 mixed in.)

Parts left to buy:

E8400 or E8500 Core 2 Duo (The price of either hits the sweet spot in pricing of all the Core 2 Duos. Prices on both continue to creep down as the i7 CPUS have just hit)

Gigabtye DS3L or MSI Neo3-FR P45 based motherboard (The heatpipe cooling of the MSI deserves mentioning as well as the 4 PCI slots for those who have have a few add-ons laying around. But I'm nearly set on getting the DS3L and its 8 external USB ports soon unless a great deal negates me getting either of them)

That's the build thus far and I'm sticking to it barring any Black Friday deals that I absolutely can't turn down. :D

[muddi900]

The GT260 c216 is going cheaper than the 4870 in a lot of places. Please correct that!

[Jackel]

Yeah, the regular 4870 is huge, as long as the motherboard, or a person's forearm. I had also never seen a card so large, but since I'm just aircooling, it really only effects my cable routing. Two 6-pin connectors makes my ATX power cable have to fight for position.

EDIT: Jackel, the system looks good. Though, you could go with the DS3L and save about $20 and mildly better positioning for the inputs. From what I could tell, all the current crop of $100+ Gigabyte boards have the optical out onboard anyways, right below the PS/2 ports.

Yeah...I had initially thought about getting the DS3L, however the onboard sound is the Realtek AC8888, which doesn't offer DDL. Wheras the UD3P offers the AC 8889A which does.

I know that I could probably get buy with just using the multi-channel inputs on my receiver, however using DDL will allow me to convert any audio signal to dolby, instead of just the EAX / game 3D positional sound.

[LiquidRain]

The GT260 c216 is going cheaper than the 4870 in a lot of places. Please correct that!
I hope people would be smart enough to realize those are just price ranges, and to do their own price comparisons for parts that are neck and neck. Frankly I don't have the time to keep up on every single development and price change.

[Brady]

Unless you are doing some kind of video editing or professional 3D rendering I would spend the money on a faster dual core, an E8400 at 4Ghz will get you better performance than a Q6600 at 3GHz in most games.

The system is actually used in pretty heavily in Audio mixing and HD video editing, so the Quad core will be the best for me. I probably spend an equal amount of time doing that compared to my gaming.

[LiquidRain]

This applies to people in northern regions. But in Texas, sometimes a wind tunnel is the only thing you can do to save a PC. Unless you can afford to air condition your home to 74 degrees all the time, the PC becomes a space heater.
It's not -20 all year round. It hits the 90s here in the summer before factoring humidity, which doesn't compare to your summers, but it's nothing to scoff at. And my air conditioning at best lowers the temps to the low 80s during the summer for ambience room temperature.

I get what you're saying but I still don't buy it. A good, large heatsink is all that's needed - a small amount of airflow is all that's needed to cool a larger heatsink.

[Bone]

I know that should be the case, but unless I spend lots of extra money on AC, my computer overheats. It's not overclocked and it's well ventilated. I've just invested in a few extra large fans to solve it rather than crank my AC (my wife can't handle the cold, otherwise I'd keep it Canadian in here year round :D )

[SilentScreams]

I run a GTX 260, an old 90nm Athlon64 X2 that's overclocked (110W TDP), a single HDD, and an ASUS Xonar D2X on a first generation nForce 4 board. (which are notorious for running hot as hell, and the tower of a heatsink on my northbridge proves it)

All I have for fans are my Seasonic S12-II quiet PSU (1 slow fan), a 120mm slow fan exhaust (1000rpm), a 92mm slow fan intake (1000rpm again), and the GTX 260's stock cooler. My CPU fan is turned off unless I'm playing games - a large heatsink and Cool 'n' Quiet let me run it passively. My case has no extra holes, no windows, nothing. You think it'd be a cooling nightmare.

All temps are actually below normal.

People think you need some kind of wind tunnel to cool a PC properly. You don't. Just use a can of compressed air once every few months to keep the heatsinks clean of dust buildup. (you don't have to wipe it down - just make sure it's not clogged with dust, a regular blast from a compressed air can is enough) That and any airflow at all, even from slow 1000rpm fans, is enough to keep them cool in a normal environment.

I realize the 4870 X2 (any X2 card really) gets especially toasty, but your computer is not about to die from heat unless you let it fall into disrepair or live in a furnace. GPUs crank their fans when they have to, as do CPU fans and PSU fans, so I'm sure there's plenty of cooling overhead in your PC, and even if that weren't enough, CPUs all autothrottle on overheating and GPUs will make your program crash before the GPU manages to kill itself.

Short version: you have nothing to worry about.

Good to know. Thanks.

[Jackel]

Ok. My Final Build:

Gigabyte UD3P
Intel E8500
2x2GB OCZ Platinum 1066 DDR2
MSI Radeon 4870 1GB
Antec 900 Case
Corsair 650W PS
1TB Hitachi (already have)
1 External dvd burner (already have)

[KJAX]

Great thread all around as I continue to slap together my new build. These are the parts I have so far:

Antec Three Hundred Case
Antec Earthwatts 650 PSU
2 Gig OCZ DDR2 1066 RAM
LG DVD/CD Burner
Free Copy of Windows Server 2008 (Dreamspark (https://www.dreamspark.com/default.aspx) deal although I may just snag Vista Ultimate for $60 at a later time or Windows XP Pro)

Parts being carried over from current build:

ATI 1800 XL 256MB Card (It still gets the job done in most of the current games; either the 4850 or 4870 is next)
500 GB Western Digital and 160 Seagate Hard Drives (The 160 GB will likely be the Windows Drive if I don't set up separate partitions)
Logitech G15 Keyboard (I still have the original version of the "gamers" keyboard and I'll have it until something better comes out)
19in KDS CRT Monitor (Nope, I have yet to move on to LCDs but when I do, at least a 22 inch will be required)
Dynex USB Mouse (Just snagged this recently from Best Buy. Never been into the gamers' mice but then again, I spend most of my time playing Final Fantasy Online with some UT3 mixed in.)

Parts left to buy:

E8400 or E8500 Core 2 Duo (The price of either hits the sweet spot in pricing of all the Core 2 Duos. Prices on both continue to creep down as the i7 CPUS have just hit)

Gigabtye DS3L or MSI Neo3-FR P45 based motherboard (The heatpipe cooling of the MSI deserves mentioning as well as the 4 PCI slots for those who have have a few add-ons laying around. But I'm nearly set on getting the DS3L and its 8 external USB ports soon unless a great deal negates me getting either of them)

That's the build thus far and I'm sticking to it barring any Black Friday deals that I absolutely can't turn down. :D

Just a quick update on my build.

Found the P43 based DS3L (http://www.gigabyte.com.tw/Products/Motherboard/Products_Overview.aspx?ProductID=2847) on Zipzoomfly (http://www.zipzoomfly.com/jsp/ProductDetail.jsp?ProductCode=10008667) for $80 (free shipping). Had it purchased then looked at the bills and canceled it after a $60 haul from GoGamer. The CPU support list is nearly identical to the P45 with BIOS updates. It is back up to $90 now after Black Friday but still $10 cheaper than the DSL P45 board (http://www.gigabyte.com.tw/Products/Motherboard/Products_Overview.aspx?ProductID=2844) at Newegg (excluding the rebate). Should I grab the P43 for the price or the P45 for future mobo support?

[Disgustipated]

Get the P45. The P43 is little more than a P35.

[Wraith]

Question regarding upcoming CPU & GPU releases...

I've got a S775 system, E4500 (2.2GHz), 7900GTX 512MB, 4GB DDR2 800. I would like to upgrade the CPU and graphics card sometime between now and when Windows 7 hits. So somewhere between Q1 2009 and Q3 2009. (I know it could always get delayed further, but I'll probably upgrade even if it's not out by then.) I'd like to keep my motherboard and RAM.

Is there anything significant coming for S775 CPUs in the next several months, or am I going to be fine just picking up an E8400/E8500? I'd be open to going quad-core, but want to stay around 65W TDP or lower. Is there any chance of another die shrink next year?

As for the GPU, I'd like something upper-mainstream, lower-enthusiast, <$300, that doesn't have a screamer of a fan and isn't a huge power hog. I'm currently running at 1600x1200. I've thought about some of the HD 4850s with alternate cooling systems (like this one (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814127370)), but would be willing to wait if there's something better on the way. I'd like to go with AMD/ATI this time for the GPU, but that's not set in stone by any means.

[LiquidRain]

45nm is the end of die shrinks for Core 2 Duo series. 32nm is going to be reserved for Westmere, the die shrink of Nehalem, so there won't really be anything new. Only price drops.

ATI is already at 55nm, by the time you're upgrading they may have started to move to 40nm but I don't know if I'd bet on it. 4850 with a third party solution (the Thermalright HR-03 is the best one, though not sure about it's HD 4000 compatibility) sounds like your best bet, though you can get 4870 512MB cards for under $300, or the 1GB 4870 for about that price. Rogue picked up the 4870 1GB on sale for $250.

[Rogue_hunter]

Core 2 Duo can still be upgraded into a Core 2 Quad, and they'll be way cheaper by the time someone (such as myself) goes for an upgrade. Price drops are great for picking up the higher end parts cheaper. My initial plan was to get a Q9550, but Liquid's recommendation caused me to drop it down to the E8500. In 2+ years (my planned upgrade cycle), the Q9550, as well as the any other C2Q model will be dirt cheap.

The HD4870 1 GB can be had for $250, if you know when and where to look. Fry's Electronics had one model (by Diamond, if I remember correctly) that was $240 after instant and mail-in rebates. I got my Sapphire model for $280, and then $30 MIR. Looky (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814102801&nm_mc=TEMC-RMA-Approvel&cm_mmc=TEMC-RMA-Approvel-_-Content-_-text-_-N82E16814102801) right now for a good deal. Though, if that's above your budget, the 4850 can be had for less than $200, with $150-$180 being the average prices I've seen.

[Wraith]

The HD4870 1 GB can be had for $250, if you know when and where to look. Fry's Electronics had one model (by Diamond, if I remember correctly) that was $240 after instant and mail-in rebates. I got my Sapphire model for $280, and then $30 MIR. Looky (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814102801&nm_mc=TEMC-RMA-Approvel&cm_mmc=TEMC-RMA-Approvel-_-Content-_-text-_-N82E16814102801) right now for a good deal. Though, if that's above your budget, the 4850 can be had for less than $200, with $150-$180 being the average prices I've seen.I was just looking at that card, and the 512MB version. Though I haven't really found any reviews of those models, only other Sapphires with the reference cooling solution.

Also looked at the HIS HD 4850 (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814161246) cards.

The Sapphire 4870 512MB is going for $200 with coupon code, but reviews of the HIS 4850s say they've got a great cooling solution - quiet and much lower temps than standard 4850s.

[danielOut]

Just a heads up, recently finished up a build for a buddy using this list. Helped a ton, and after a quick replacement from NewEgg (first mobo we got was faulty, but no biggie - shit happens) the little puppy is up and running like a dream. Thanks for putting together this awesome thread; really makes life easy when I'm building a system for someone else and thus not motivated to do much research. Your name will forever stand in the hall of heroes.

[Rogue_hunter]

I was just looking at that card, and the 512MB version. Though I haven't really found any reviews of those models, only other Sapphires with the reference cooling solution.

Also looked at the HIS HD 4850 (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814161246) cards.

The Sapphire 4870 512MB is going for $200 with coupon code, but reviews of the HIS 4850s say they've got a great cooling solution - quiet and much lower temps than standard 4850s.

I honestly haven't had any problems with the stock cooling. And realistically, it's not loud at all. Keeping my case open to see if there was overheating on the processor or GFX card and playing Fallout 3, the fan spun up loudly once for two seconds. It only does that maybe once an hour of heavy duty gaming.

I'm of the mind that it's better to have more RAM for everything, so I'm just outright suggesting getting whatever card you get in the 1GB flavor. And something like the 4870 is just that little bit more future-proof as it's that little bit more higher-end.

[KJAX]

Get the P45. The P43 is little more than a P35.

As LiquidRain might say, "Don't SKIMP on the motherboard."

[Xerxes]

Any suggestions for laptop cooling pads.

I've been thinking of excommunicating my desktop in favor of my laptop. Thing is, to have my laptop (Dell Vostro 1500) on for more than a hour means it's getting warm at the bottom. So I was looking for a pad I could leave on my desk. My laptop is damn near as powerful as my desktop if not more. So it would be fine until I could build a badass computer. By then I'll be done moved.

[KingGorilla]

Also looked at the HIS HD 4850 (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814161246) cards.


I can vouch that HIS(and Sapphire) make great cards. I am in love with the cooling that HIS puts on theirs.

[Jackel]

Heh.

5 days after my order for it My Video card has been deactivated on new egg (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814127389)

Any ideas on why they would do this?

[Rogue_hunter]

Heh.

5 days after my order for it My Video card has been deactivated on new egg (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814127389)

Any ideas on why they would do this?

Production issues, lack of supply, product recall, any number of issues with MSI and/or Newegg. Who knows. Sucks, but did they refund your money, or do you already have the card?

[KingGorilla]

Here is their explanation:
What is a Deactivated Item?

When a product is out-of-stock, it may show as "Deactivated" on the item page. This could mean that the item is no longer available and we are searching for a new supplier. However, if an item has reached the end of its product life cycle and will no longer be available at all, the deactivation will be permanent.

[Jackel]

Production issues, lack of supply, product recall, any number of issues with MSI and/or Newegg. Who knows. Sucks, but did they refund your money, or do you already have the card?

It is in the mail shipping. Supposed to arrive Monday or Tuesday.

Scares me a bit...I haven't seen anything online regarding any issues..and it seemed like the reviews for it were positive.

Normally I would have gone with the Sapphire, but the reviews seemed more positive on New Egg, and the price was the same.

We'll see I guess.

[LiquidRain]

MSI may have just not liked sales figures and pulled the product. *shrug*

[Rogue_hunter]

It is in the mail shipping. Supposed to arrive Monday or Tuesday.

Scares me a bit...I haven't seen anything online regarding any issues..and it seemed like the reviews for it were positive.

Normally I would have gone with the Sapphire, but the reviews seemed more positive on New Egg, and the price was the same.

We'll see I guess.

My Sapphire doesn't have that stupid sticker, so that makes it better in my opinion.

Newegg reviews seemed to either be way too positive or would critique, but not go in enough detail. So it takes alot to wade through all the hype posts, to get to those that critique it and give a decent amount of information to help you decide.

[Jackel]

We'll see how it runs I guess. Damn Turkeyshoot

Thats what happens when you stop following Liquids guide. So learn from this lesson all you youngsters.

[LiquidRain]

You'll be fine. They're all made at the same place anyway.

[LiquidRain]

If anyone missed the thread, I bought an ASUS Xonar D2X (http://www.colonyofgamers.com/cogforums/showthread.php?t=2797) - the card I recommend in my guides.

Never buy Creative again. Never. It is NOT worth your purchase compared to this amazing soundcard. Onboard is garbage, Creative sucks, the Xonar cards are awesome.

This is one of the best purchases I've made to make my computing experience better. The Dolby support and effects and the extremely good sound quality coming out of the card is amazing.

[Jackel]

Thats probably the card I'll be picking up if I find my onboard audio doesn't cut it.

[SilentScreams]

Newbie question: I've never had anything but onboard sound before. What exactly does a sound card do that makes it worth the price? I run all my audio through my CD player via USB and I've never noticed a lack of sound quality.
I don't personally know anyone who has actually bought a sound card ever.

[LiquidRain]

1. If you use analog output of any kind you get an immense boost in sound quality. If your audio chain (receiver/speaker set) uses analog input and not digital, you stand to gain a huge increase in quality.
2. For gamers, positional audio is a huge deal. Dedicated cards have much better positional audio than onboard.
3. For people who at least want some semblence of quality audio recording.
4. Dedicated cards have lower sound floors (less noise) with no interference, unlike onboard audio.
5. They also have better processing, such as better resampling of different bitrates, as well as offering higher frequencies such as 24-bit 96KHz.
6. Dedicated boards, such as the D2X, also offer features onboard won't such as DTS live encoding.

You never notice a lack of sound quality until you hear the onboard put next to a good dedicated card, side by side. Unfortunately that takes the investment of buying the card. In addition: if all you use are $10 headphones or $10 desktop speakers, then no, you won't notice a lack in audio quality between either of them. I use a nice pair of (what I consider) expensive Sennheiser headphones, so it makes a massive difference to me.

[Primus]

Newbie question: I've never had anything but onboard sound before. What exactly does a sound card do that makes it worth the price? I run all my audio through my CD player via USB and I've never noticed a lack of sound quality.
I don't personally know anyone who has actually bought a sound card ever.

Unless you have some wicked speaker system you want to utilize, I doubt it would be worth getting one.

[PathMaster]

If you can still search and find your deactivated item, then it may just be a temporary issue. If on the other hand you can not find it via search, then it might have been pulled for good.

[Jackel]

1. If you use analog output of any kind you get an immense boost in sound quality. If your audio chain (receiver/speaker set) uses analog input and not digital, you stand to gain a huge increase in quality.
2. For gamers, positional audio is a huge deal. Dedicated cards have much better positional audio than onboard.
3. For people who at least want some semblence of quality audio recording.
4. Dedicated cards have lower sound floors (less noise) with no interference, unlike onboard audio.
5. They also have better processing, such as better resampling of different bitrates, as well as offering higher frequencies such as 24-bit 96KHz.
6. Dedicated boards, such as the D2X, also offer features onboard won't such as DTS live encoding.

You never notice a lack of sound quality until you hear the onboard put next to a good dedicated card, side by side. Unfortunately that takes the investment of buying the card. In addition: if all you use are $10 headphones or $10 desktop speakers, then no, you won't notice a lack in audio quality between either of them. I use a nice pair of (what I consider) expensive Sennheiser headphones, so it makes a massive difference to me.

Positional audio is important as is sound quality. I want to be able to enjoy my .flac collection.

I have a fairly high quality 5.1 set of Home theater speakers that I run through a decent receiver. My plan is to use a Toslink Optical connection between my receiver and the computer. However this might change if I'm getting any distortion, I'll switch to the analog output and run it through my multi-channel input on my receiver.

The audio chipset (Realtek AC889A) on my new motherboard also has DTS Live Encoding.

I'll see how happy i am with the sound and make my decision.

[LiquidRain]

People report that onboard audio gives bit-perfect recordings when doing AC3 pass-through. Can't find any other information on that sort of comparison though.

[Xerxes]

What are like a great pair of headphone that could be used for gaming.

[Rogue_hunter]

What are like a great pair of headphone that could be used for gaming.

Astro A40s are all you need, but they cost $200, or $250 with the mix amp that allows you to hook up to a console.

However, the Plantronics Gamecom 777 is great too. Initially retailed for $99, but can be found for ~$40-50.

[Xerxes]

Astro A40s are all you need, but they cost $200, or $250 with the mix amp that allows you to hook up to a console.

However, the Plantronics Gamecom 777 is great too. Initially retailed for $99, but can be found for ~$40-50.

I was think of just getting the mixamp and "quality" headphones and clip on mic. $200 for the headphones seem iffy. I might stop being difficult and order them together though.

[Bone]

I was think of just getting the mixamp and "quality" headphones and clip on mic. $200 for the headphones seem iffy. I might stop being difficult and order them together though.

Sl1pstream got his delivered to our house when he was here. They were so comfortable- oddly light compared to their size- and sounded great. When I have the means I intend to get the amp + phones combo.

[Xerxes]

Sl1pstream got his delivered to our house when he was here. They were so comfortable- oddly light compared to their size- and sounded great. When I have the means I intend to get the amp + phones combo.

Yeah Random made it sound like that too. I'm going to stop trying to be difficult and order a pair. Actually I have to balance Black Friday out first.

[LiquidRain]

Just a heads up: ATI's now selling Radeon 4870s for $200, with the 1GB version running $230.

Go red team!

[Jackel]

Finally got the majority of my parts today. Although I'm still waiting on my custom cpu cooler to come in. Unfortunately it requires a base under the motherboard, so i'd have to remove everything..

I'm debating if I should set the computer up, run memtest / Prime95 / Hitachi Drive test...and then install the custom cooler afterwards, or if I should just wait a few days until the new cooler arrives before i set everything up.

[LiquidRain]

I'd wait a few days for the cooler. The CPU and motherboard are highly unlikely to be faulty. Memory and HDD are usually the components with problems.

[Jackel]

Problem is I have like 150$ in rebates that need to be sent in by tomorrow. Ram & Power supply included...so I need to either test it or forgo the extra money.

[Wraith]

Problem is I have like 150$ in rebates that need to be sent in by tomorrow. Ram & Power supply included...so I need to either test it or forgo the extra money.Well in that case... sticking on the OEM heatsink/fan now and attaching the new heatsink when it gets there is probably worth the extra $150. :D

[Jackel]

Well in that case... sticking on the OEM heatsink/fan now and attaching the new heatsink when it gets there is probably worth the extra $150. :D

December 11, 2008 07:22:00 AM SITKA AK Possible delay in delivery due to arrival at incorrect carrier facility

Fucking USPS. It would have been here!@!!


edit: Memtest86+ overnight got 17 passes 0 errors :)
Running DFT right now.

[PathMaster]

Max PC $800 PC (http://www.maximumpc.com/article/features/how_build_a_kickass_800_gaming_pc)

[LiquidRain]

Yep. Good article.

[LiquidRain]

Confirming what a lot of people (and myself) have already said and tested, Silverstone has a neat video of why you should be using positive air pressure in your builds. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qe-2ZqmSGug&fmt=18) More fans blowing in, less fans blowing out, people! It leaves less "dead zones" in your case that will just contain and build up hot pockets of air.

[Bone]

MMmmmm hot pockets.

Interesting video. Although I imagine the only way to test it in my case is to get a smoke machine. Right now, my front two fans are intakes, and I have an upper rear intake over the CPU like in this video. Then I have two rear exhaust fans (plus the PSU which exhausts by default). I suppose I could make the lower rear an intake fan and just leave the one exhaust right behind the CPU.

[PathMaster]

Looks like the PSU fan was the only one doing the job there, besides the new hole. Kind of cool.

[KJAX]

Great thread all around as I continue to slap together my new build. These are the parts I have so far:

Antec Three Hundred Case
Antec Earthwatts 650 PSU
2 Gig OCZ DDR2 1066 RAM
LG DVD/CD Burner
Free Copy of Windows Server 2008 (Dreamspark (https://www.dreamspark.com/default.aspx) deal although I may just snag Vista Ultimate for $60 at a later time or Windows XP Pro)

Parts being carried over from current build:

ATI 1800 XL 256MB Card (It still gets the job done in most of the current games; either the 4850 or 4870 is next)
160 GB Western Digital and 500 Seagate Hard Drives (The 160 GB will likely be the Windows Drive if I don't set up separate partitions)
Logitech G15 Keyboard (I still have the original version of the "gamers" keyboard and I'll have it until something better comes out)
19in KDS CRT Monitor (Nope, I have yet to move on to LCDs but when I do, at least a 22 inch will be required)
Dynex USB Mouse (Just snagged this recently from Best Buy. Never been into the gamers' mice but then again, I spend most of my time playing Final Fantasy Online with some UT3 mixed in.)

Parts left to buy:

E8400 or E8500 Core 2 Duo (The price of either hits the sweet spot in pricing of all the Core 2 Duos. Prices on both continue to creep down as the i7 CPUS have just hit)

Gigabtye DS3L or MSI Neo3-FR P45 based motherboard (The heatpipe cooling of the MSI deserves mentioning as well as the 4 PCI slots for those who have have a few add-ons laying around. But I'm nearly set on getting the DS3L and its 8 external USB ports soon unless a great deal negates me getting either of them)

That's the build thus far and I'm sticking to it barring any Black Friday deals that I absolutely can't turn down. :D

My new system is up and running.

Final specs:


E8400 Core 2 Duo
Gigabtye DS3L mobo
ATI 1800 XL 256MB Card
2 Gig OCZ DDR2 1066 RAM
160 GB Western Digital and 500 GB Seagate Hard Drives
LG DVD/CD Burner
Antec Three Hundred Case
Antec Earthwatts 650 PSU
Windows Server 2008
19in KDS CRT Monitor


Although I got my E8400 from Microcenter, there was some drama involved in getting it. I tried purchasing it online to pick up in the store but I received an e-mail saying they were out of stock but later called the store to find out, like the website said, they had about 20 in stock. Of course, my credit card was still charged. To make a long story short, I went to the store, grabbed the CPU and yes, they charged my card again. The canceled order should come off my account today.

In meantime, while waiting for my account to get back to normal, I'm thinking of grabbing a good gaming mouse or perhaps another game (maybe Left 4 Dead) with my $25 gift card I snagged from work. The Habu from Microsoft or Razer's Death Adder are my top choices. Any other recommendations?

[Rogue_hunter]

KJAX: The Habu is a Microsoft branded Razer. I believe it's the DeathAdder (which is the mouse I have, and is totally awesome). Either one is great though.

Good build, but running the 1800XL just makes me all sad for you. Upgrade that to a 4850 or 4870 STAT!

[KJAX]

KJAX: The Habu is a Microsoft branded Razer. I believe it's the DeathAdder (which is the mouse I have, and is totally awesome). Either one is great though.

Good build, but running the 1800XL just makes me all sad for you. Upgrade that to a 4850 or 4870 STAT!

Yes, the drivers for the Habu are on Razer's website. And I plan to change out that video card within the next month or so. I have definitely gotten my money's worth with that card ($330) back when I got it 3 years ago this month. I can still play games in 1280x1024 or 1024x768 in high detail. But now is the time to retire the card. I'm hoping to hold out for the 4870 as prices continue to drop.

[LiquidRain]

The 4870 512MB is already at $200, with the 1GB at $230-$250. It just got a price drop in the last week. I don't predict it'll get much lower, especially with ATI leading the price drops.

[KJAX]

The 4870 512MB is already at $200, with the 1GB at $230-$250. It just got a price drop in the last week. I don't predict it'll get much lower, especially with ATI leading the price drops.

Yeah, I just saw it going for below $200 in some places. I may try getting soon but no earlier than January 6. Have to get the rent taken care of first. Damn financial responsibilities. :(

And here's (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814102810) that sub $200 card. :) Using the coupon code for $15 off (promo code "EMCBCCCDA") will take it below $200. The catch, you have to subscribe to the NewEgg newsletter to use the code.

[KJAX]

Confirming what a lot of people (and myself) have already said and tested, Silverstone has a neat video of why you should be using positive air pressure in your builds. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qe-2ZqmSGug&fmt=18) More fans blowing in, less fans blowing out, people! It leaves less "dead zones" in your case that will just contain and build up hot pockets of air.

I hate to follow my own posts but I just grabbed a second intake fan from Staples for my rig, an Antec 120mm Tri Cool Blue LED Fan. Thanks for confirming what I always suspected about keeping my comp cool.

[biosc1]

Anyone have any suggestions regarding thermal paste?

I'm ripping out my E6750 and replacing it with a E8400. I'll be moving the E6750 to a secondary build and I'm figuring in the process I'll be removing the current heatsink I have on it and removing the current paste that came with the heatsink.

I've always depended on the paste that came with my heatsinks and never applied my own (I know less applied is better)...but does it matter what brand I go with? Arctic cooling brand seems to be most popular, right?

[Rogue_hunter]

Arctic Silver 5 seems to be the defacto thermal paste to use. It's 99.9% silver! And uses three different size silver molecules!
Installation instructions here (http://www.arcticsilver.com/pdf/appinstruct/as5/ins_as5_intel_dual_wcap.pdf) (PDF warning). The thin line actually seems to get spread across the entire heatspreader, and looked alot nicer than when I manually covered it during my first installation.

[biosc1]

Thanks. It's weird that in all my years of building computers, I have yet to apply paste. I'm sure that after this try, I'll always be doing it.

Building my girlfriend a new desktop to replace her aging laptop...and using this as an excuse to slightly upgrade my cpu and RAM speeds ;)

[Arphahat]

My PC is aging a bit and, after being denied by Fallout 3, I am hoping to finally upgrade it. Here are my details:

Intel Pentium 4 2.8E Prescott 2.8GHz Socket 478 Processor Model RK80546PG0721M

2 Crucial 512MB 184-Pin DDR SDRAM DDR 400 (PC 3200) Desktop Memory Model CT6464Z40B.8T

ATI 100-713100 Radeon 9800PRO 128MB 256-bit DDR AGP 4X/8X All-In-Wonder Video Card

Intel BOXD865PERLX 478 Intel 865PE ATX Intel Motherboard


I pulled this info directly from my order history info from NewEgg. I assembled this 4/27/2004, so it is over 4.5 years old... wow...

I am upgrading the RAM with 2 1GBs. I haven't been paying attention for awhile now, and really need help with my video card and cpu options.

[LiquidRain]

Look for the ATI card in your budget. $100-130, 4830. $150, 4850. $200, 4870.

Everything else just look at my recommended specs. Gigabyte DS3L motherboard, Intel e8400, 2x2GB cheapest brand name RAM, Corsair power supply.

[Arphahat]

Look for the ATI card in your budget. $100-130, 4830. $150, 4850. $200, 4870.

Everything else just look at my recommended specs. Gigabyte DS3L motherboard, Intel e8400, 2x2GB cheapest brand name RAM, Corsair power supply.

I was hoping to avoid the price of a completely new computer. Is it possible to upgrade what I currently have cheap and be able to play modern games?

My previous card is AGP, but is that all that my motherboard can support? Are the video cards you list in your first post even options for my existing computer? The numbering of the video cards is some of the most retarded shit I've seen: higher numbers don't seem to mean better.

[SilentScreams]

I think that mobo is AGP only. It's what screwed me over too. If I'd had a PCI-E mobo, I probably could have got away with it, but AGP is pretty dated now, and all the best cards are PCI-E.
I ended up buying a new mobo, which in turn meant I could buy a Q9550 CPU and for good measure I stuck a 4870X2 in there. That meant I needed a better PSU and a bigger case with better cooling...Ended up costing a bomb. By the time I'd done I'd pretty much bought a new PC. Admittedly I went a little (or a lot) overkill on the CPU and graphics card though.
But bottom line and the point I was getting at is as somebody on here told me once...PCI-E mobo and the PC is generally upgradeable. No PCI-E = not so much.

[LiquidRain]

I was hoping to avoid the price of a completely new computer. Is it possible to upgrade what I currently have cheap and be able to play modern games?

My previous card is AGP, but is that all that my motherboard can support? Are the video cards you list in your first post even options for my existing computer? The numbering of the video cards is some of the most retarded shit I've seen: higher numbers don't seem to mean better.
They do with ATI these days.

And no. There's nothing short of a new PC that'll save your current rig. The most cost effective way is a total overhaul for something that old. Any upgrade you buy, even RAM, will be ludicrously expensive to what you can get if you just buy new.

[Arphahat]

They do with ATI these days.

And no. There's nothing short of a new PC that'll save your current rig. The most cost effective way is a total overhaul for something that old. Any upgrade you buy, even RAM, will be ludicrously expensive to what you can get if you just buy new.

Ugh. Well, it has been four years, so I guess it is time to consider a new build.

Quickly using your first post, I could have one from NewEgg in three days for $1,007.14. Shit, that is a lot of money just to play Fallout 3. :)

[SilentScreams]

I suppose it depends how much you game on your PC.
When I upgraded about 3-4 months ago, my PC was about 4 years old like yours. It had been pretty much fine until this last wave of games like Far Cry 2 and Fallout 3. They were the first games I couldn't run.

Personally I'm almost exclusively a PC gamer. I have a 360, a PS2 and a Wii, but they mostly sit gathering dust between big exclusives. So for me, the cash I dropped on this PC was worth it, especially if I can get 4 years out of it like I did with my last one.

If you're a big PC gamer, it's definitely time to look at a new PC. Multiple cores and PCI-E are becoming minimum requirements now I think.

[LiquidRain]

Phenom IIs seem like they're a return to form for AMD. The unfortunate part is they trade blows with Core 2 Quads, but lag behind the i7, which is disconcerting for AMD's future. Rumours are going around that Intel's going to be laying down some big price drops on C2Qs in the next month due to AMD being competitive again.

In related interesting news, my statements are correct and Anand backs me up. Dual core processors are just as good as Quads, or better (http://www.anandtech.com/cpuchipsets/showdoc.aspx?i=3492&p=18), for gaming purposes. Look at how far up the list the E8400/E8500 is on those benchmarks. Quad cores shine in Far Cry 2, since that's easily the most multi-threaded engine there is today, but in most other games the dual cores more than keep their pace with the quads. Feel free to find other benchmarks on your own, but you'll only find more evidence that I'm right in this case. ;)

So I stand by my recommendation: Buy a dual core now for gaming, and wait until more games get a good benefit from quad cores before upgrading. (and by then you'll have plenty of cheap quad cores to pick from) If you have a use for quad core (video encoding, etc) then by all means get a quad core, but for gaming, dual core is still more than good enough!

[SilentScreams]

Meh, I'm happy with my Q9550.
Runs everything like a dream and will probably continue to do so for a good long while. I don't regret not going with a Duo.

[biosc1]

Meh, I'm happy with my Q9550.
Runs everything like a dream and will probably continue to do so for a good long while. I don't regret not going with a Duo.

Just rub it in...

[LiquidRain]

Meh, I'm happy with my Q9550.
Runs everything like a dream and will probably continue to do so for a good long while. I don't regret not going with a Duo.
No, you won't be unhappy with it. But some people won't want to pay in the $350 range for a processor when, for gaming, a $200 one will do the job just as well.

[Arphahat]

OK, I am stubbornly persisting with my reluctance to abandon my current computer. The only element that I am missing, it seems, is an AGP card that supports the... M2(?) shader.

From Fallout 3's readme.txt file:
-Minimum System Requirements:
* Windows XP/Vista
* 1GB System RAM (XP)/ 2GB System RAM (Vista)
* 2.4 Ghz Intel Pentium 4 or equivalent processor
* Direct X 9.0c compliant video card with 256MB RAM (NVIDIA 6800 or better/ATI X850 or better)

-Recommended System Requirements:
* Intel Core 2 Duo processor
* 2 GB System RAM
* Direct X 9.0c compliant video card with 512MB RAM

-Supported Video Card Chipsets:
ATI HD 4800 series
ATI HD 4600 series
ATI HD 3800 series
ATI HD 3600 series
ATI HD 3400 series
ATI HD 2900 series
ATI HD 2600 series
ATI HD 2400 series
ATI X1900 series
ATI X1800 series
ATI X1600 series
ATI X1300 series
ATI X850 series

NVIDIA GeForce 200 series
NVIDIA Geforce 9800 series
NVIDIA Geforce 9600 series
NVIDIA Geforce 8800 series
NVIDIA Geforce 8600 series
NVIDIA Geforce 8500 series
NVIDIA Geforce 8400 series
NVIDIA Geforce 7900 series
NVIDIA Geforce 7800 series
NVIDIA Geforce 7600 series
NVIDIA Geforce 7300 series
NVIDIA GeForce 6800 series


I've been looking at NewEgg's selection of AGP cards (http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&N=2010380048%201069609639&bop=And&Order=PRICE) and see a couple options that look reasonable (like: ASUS AH3450/HTP/256M Radeon HD 3450 256MB 64-bit GDDR2 AGP 4X/8X HDCP Ready Low Profile Video Card - Retail).

I am looking for a card that I can use to get by for now, without spending a bunch on a system that I will eventually upgrade. Does anyone have any opinions on these cards?

[Cit Phil Cit]

I will be coming into some money shortly, around a $1000. Was thinking of a big upgrade. Maybe.

[LiquidRain]

I am looking for a card that I can use to get by for now, without spending a bunch on a system that I will eventually upgrade. Does anyone have any opinions on these cards?
Any AGP card you buy now will both underperform and come at a premium cost. I highly, HIGHLY recommend you do NOT buy one.

[biosc1]

I will be coming into some money shortly, around a $1000. Was thinking of a big upgrade. Maybe.

Send me the $1000 and I'll give you a big upgrade.


....wiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiink


Otherwise, if you go the boring route, $1000 will give you a pretty darn solid upgrade. I threw together an an E8400 dual core, 4GB RAM, Gigabyte DSL3 P45, 640GB hdd, heatsink and case for under $600. Throw in an ATI 4870 and you'll have enough money to spare to maybe throw a little towards a monitor upgrade :)

[Arphahat]

Any AGP card you buy now will both underperform and come at a premium cost. I highly, HIGHLY recommend you do NOT buy one.

You know a lot more about hardware than I do, Liquid, and I appreciate your opinion. I understand that I could be getting much better performance if I built a new system, but I am not really in a position to build a new system right now. So, my choices are to either stick it out and gimp along the best I can, or upgrade cheaply.

As far as I can tell, all the cards there have much, much better performance than my current graphics card. The 3450 I mention above is $44.99, which is a price point that I can afford and wouldn't mind having spent it when I upgrade in the future. Is the card I'm looking at overpriced for what I would be getting?

[itchyeyes]

You know a lot more about hardware than I do, Liquid, and I appreciate your opinion. I understand that I could be getting much better performance if I built a new system, but I am not really in a position to build a new system right now. So, my choices are to either stick it out and gimp along the best I can, or upgrade cheaply.

As far as I can tell, all the cards there have much, much better performance than my current graphics card. The 3450 I mention above is $44.99, which is a price point that I can afford and wouldn't mind having spent it when I upgrade in the future. Is the card I'm looking at overpriced for what I would be getting?
I'm with Liquid here. You're wasting your money buying an AGP card, even if it's all you can afford. The only even remotely gaming worthy cards I see on that list are the Radeon 3850 and maybe the X1950 pro, both of which are selling for 2-3 times what their PCI-E cousins go for, and you're not even going to get as good of performance out of them.

Sorry to tell you, but it's time for a real upgrade. You've had just about all the gaming you're going to get out of your current machine. Scrimp and save for a couple of months and you should be able to build a decent system (re-using as many parts as you can) for under $400.

[SilentScreams]

A new PC isn't overly expensive if you don't need to buy everything, as itchyeyes said.
If your current HDD is up to scratch and you have a good solid PSU then you'll save a bit of cash. Obviously your monitor will be fine, as will your mouse and keyboard.

You're looking at a new mobo, CPU, RAM and graphics card. Probably no more than $400-$500 looking at the prices on Newegg. I just tried it out and an E8400, a HD4850, 4gb Corsair DDR2 and a new mobo for it all came to $490. You could probably get better if you spent a while looking around. I just threw all that together in 2 minutes. It's also worth pointing out that since Newegg doesn't ship to the UK, I never use it and so I don't know the site very well.

I know it's still quite a bit of cash, but it really isn't worth trying to upgrade an AGP machine. I know, as I tried it before finally giving up and buying all new.

[Bone]

It's true. The upgrade you'll get from a new AGP card isn't even worth it, it's like you'll be able to play Quake 3 in addition to the Quake 2 you could already play. I'd spent the time saving some money and going with Silent's plan above.

[biosc1]

You're looking at a new mobo, CPU, RAM and graphics card. Probably no more than $400-$500 looking at the prices on Newegg. I just tried it out and an E8400, a HD4850, 4gb Corsair DDR2 and a new mobo for it all came to $490. You could probably get better if you spent a while looking around. I just threw all that together in 2 minutes. It's also worth pointing out that since Newegg doesn't ship to the UK, I never use it and so I don't know the site very well.
.


Even cut a few more corners:

From NCIX (Canadian prices)

DDR2 2GB = $19.99
E7200 C2D = $160
Gigabyte board = $125
9800GT = $120

less than $450 CDN gets you back in the new world...Yah, the CPU is not as great, but the mobo is very upgradeable. Probably get a better price on a card and the RAM is a little slower than normal. It's all very functional though :)

Looking around for better deals and rebates should bring that price down to the the $300 to $400 range for essentially a brand new pc.

[Cit Phil Cit]

Send me the $1000 and I'll give you a big upgrade.


....wiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiink


Otherwise, if you go the boring route, $1000 will give you a pretty darn solid upgrade. I threw together an an E8400 dual core, 4GB RAM, Gigabyte DSL3 P45, 640GB hdd, heatsink and case for under $600. Throw in an ATI 4870 and you'll have enough money to spare to maybe throw a little towards a monitor upgrade :)

I'm happy with my screen Samsung 2493H 24" and I recently bought a TB drive. Namely, I've done a number of upgrades that avoided tearing the guts out of my system: AMD X2 4400, 4 GB RAM, X1900XT/512 and SB-XFI with a Wifi card. P

I'm torn on what to do, I was thinking a 4850 (and my new Mobo is dual-slotted for another) and a beefy power supply to handle the future sister card, a MB with good upgrading potential, sticking to a more modest processor and 4 GB RAM - knowing XP won't use it. I'd need a new case, as I want to keep the old box around and working. I'd swap in the XFi and my 650 PSU too.

If I could keep it below 600, Id be happy.

[Arphahat]

Thank you, gentlemen. You have all shown me the error of my ways. I will abide by the Law of the Rain that is Liquid and refrain from wasting my money on upgrading with another AGP card.

[LiquidRain]

I'm happy with my screen Samsung 2493H 24" and I recently bought a TB drive. Namely, I've done a number of upgrades that avoided tearing the guts out of my system: AMD X2 4400, 4 GB RAM, X1900XT/512 and SB-XFI with a Wifi card. P

I'm torn on what to do, I was thinking a 4850 (and my new Mobo is dual-slotted for another) and a beefy power supply to handle the future sister card, a MB with good upgrading potential, sticking to a more modest processor and 4 GB RAM - knowing XP won't use it. I'd need a new case, as I want to keep the old box around and working. I'd swap in the XFi and my 650 PSU too.

If I could keep it below 600, Id be happy.
Good choice on the Samsung 2493HM monitor, it's one of the better ones out there. Make sure you use GPU scaling instead of relying on the monitor's scaling though - the monitor gets nasty input lag when the scaler kicks in. (zero lag otherwise)

Dual card upgrades are never worth it, trust me. I preach that a lot. They simply aren't. Go for a 4870 1GB instead of two 4850s, or at most get a 4870 X2.

You also have the same processor as me, an Athlon X2 4400, so I'll tell you straight up: any graphics card upgrade your purchase will not help your framerates a whole lot. You'll hit 60 during quiet times in games more often, and you can drive up the AA and AF, but the second the game's got lots of things going on, your framerate will dive into the 20s and 30s like mine does. Your CPU is your limiter, but if you upgraded your CPU (which involves upgrading your whole platform: mobo, RAM, and CPU) your old graphics card would be the bottleneck.

You're in a position where it makes the most sense to outright buy all new parts. A 4850 would outpace how fast your CPU could process anything. I have a GTX 260, and I can turn AA on in Crysis Warhead because loading the GPU with more work makes no impact on my framerate. However, changing physics options makes a big difference. :) A quick tally of what you'd have to buy in order for a new PC: $200 CPU, $70 RAM, $200 GPU, $130 motherboard. That bumps right up against your $600, before taxes (if applicable) or shipping.

If you are itching to buy, buy a 4870 now, and then save up for an entirely new computer. What's your current power supply anyway? A quality 500W-550W would be capable of running a 4870 and Core 2 Duo or Quad.

[biosc1]

If you are itching to buy, buy a 4870 now, and then save up for an entirely new computer. What's your current power supply anyway? A quality 500W-550W would be capable of running a 4870 and Core 2 Duo or Quad.

I'm absolutely loving my 4870...I have a 24", so I need something to handle 1920x1200 and this beauty of a card has taken pretty much everything I've thrown at it without a hiccup. I don't even wonder anymore if I can play things on max.

[Cit Phil Cit]

Good choice on the Samsung 2493HM monitor, it's one of the better ones out there. Make sure you use GPU scaling instead of relying on the monitor's scaling though - the monitor gets nasty input lag when the scaler kicks in. (zero lag otherwise)

Dual card upgrades are never worth it, trust me. I preach that a lot. They simply aren't. Go for a 4870 1GB instead of two 4850s, or at most get a 4870 X2.

You also have the same processor as me, an Athlon X2 4400, so I'll tell you straight up: any graphics card upgrade your purchase will not help your framerates a whole lot. You'll hit 60 during quiet times in games more often, and you can drive up the AA and AF, but the second the game's got lots of things going on, your framerate will dive into the 20s and 30s like mine does. Your CPU is your limiter, but if you upgraded your CPU (which involves upgrading your whole platform: mobo, RAM, and CPU) your old graphics card would be the bottleneck.

You're in a position where it makes the most sense to outright buy all new parts. A 4850 would outpace how fast your CPU could process anything. I have a GTX 260, and I can turn AA on in Crysis Warhead because loading the GPU with more work makes no impact on my framerate. However, changing physics options makes a big difference. :) A quick tally of what you'd have to buy in order for a new PC: $200 CPU, $70 RAM, $200 GPU, $130 motherboard. That bumps right up against your $600, before taxes (if applicable) or shipping.

If you are itching to buy, buy a 4870 now, and then save up for an entirely new computer. What's your current power supply anyway? A quality 500W-550W would be capable of running a 4870 and Core 2 Duo or Quad.

I'll have to check that video scaling - but so far I've played almost everything at 1920x1200 without a hitch as I knew it was a preferred native resolution for the screen.

One of the editors at HardOCP uses a 4850x2 setup on his rig, which was the reason for my leaning. However, I can see the value in a single 4870 (but ill still have a dual slot pci-e mobo). I have an OCZ 600 or 650 PSU - the newer die size of course is a blessing as the newer cards use less power, making it a viable PSU still - excellent warranty, already had it replaced.

I had originally erred when I got my x2 4400, I should have got an AM2 board so I could get away with some upgrading - it's not worth getting the best x2 processor for my board. The double fubar came, when all my RAM won't swap boards either - but thankfully that's come down in price. I know the x1900 is bottlenecking against the processor, but not by too great a margin.

Not really worried about quad cores, probably won't need to for a few years at least.

[LiquidRain]

words
You definitely do not need a new PSU. Video scaling only applies to stuff that isn't/doesn't support native res. I forget where it is in the ATI options, it won't be hard to find though. Whether you have a dual 16x PCIe board doesn't matter or not: I have an SLI board. Always have. I just never use SLI, because it's not worth it! :)

[Cit Phil Cit]

You definitely do not need a new PSU. Video scaling only applies to stuff that isn't/doesn't support native res. I forget where it is in the ATI options, it won't be hard to find though. Whether you have a dual 16x PCIe board doesn't matter or not: I have an SLI board. Always have. I just never use SLI, because it's not worth it! :)

I just went under my CCC and adjusted the video scaing. A question, have you had problems with Fallout 3 running? Technically our chip is just below the requirements (supposedly), and I couldn't rule it out as being part of the problems I have. I've had a bugger of a time getting it to run stable, I've finished it, but I have to run in a window and it does crash (turning off Steam makes it much more stable, oddly).

[LiquidRain]

I just went under my CCC and adjusted the video scaing. A question, have you had problems with Fallout 3 running? Technically our chip is just below the requirements (supposedly), and I couldn't rule it out as being part of the problems I have. I've had a bugger of a time getting it to run stable, I've finished it, but I have to run in a window and it does crash (turning off Steam makes it much more stable, oddly).
Haven't played it on the PC. (more accurately: haven't played it)

[Xerxes]

Correction, I swear I just saw a 9950 Black mad cheap.

[NotJeff]

My current PC and all parts were bought when Half-Life 2 came out, so that I could play it. It's an AGP mobo, so it's time to reboot entirely. I'd appreciate comments on this build:

http://secure.newegg.com/WishList/PublicWishDetail.aspx?WishListNumber=7962174

EDIT: Pulled the trigger (with MUCH help from IRC).

[PathMaster]

Grats on your build.

[KJAX]

My new system is up and running.

Final specs:


E8400 Core 2 Duo
Gigabtye DS3L mobo
ATI 1800 XL 256MB Card
2 Gig OCZ DDR2 1066 RAM
160 GB Western Digital and 500 GB Seagate Hard Drives
LG DVD/CD Burner
Antec Three Hundred Case
Antec Earthwatts 650 PSU
Windows Server 2008
19in KDS CRT Monitor


Although I got my E8400 from Microcenter, there was some drama involved in getting it. I tried purchasing it online to pick up in the store but I received an e-mail saying they were out of stock but later called the store to find out, like the website said, they had about 20 in stock. Of course, my credit card was still charged. To make a long story short, I went to the store, grabbed the CPU and yes, they charged my card again. The canceled order should come off my account today.

In meantime, while waiting for my account to get back to normal, I'm thinking of grabbing a good gaming mouse or perhaps another game (maybe Left 4 Dead) with my $25 gift card I snagged from work. The Habu from Microsoft or Razer's Death Adder are my top choices. Any other recommendations?


My sis who works for H&R Block during the tax season just did my taxes and my refund should hit on Feb. 13. I do believe my first priority will be to grab at least a ATI HD 4870 512MB if not the 1GB card. The 4850 X2 might also be a consideration.

[biosc1]

My sis who works for H&R Block during the tax season just did my taxes and my refund should hit on Feb. 13. I do believe my first priority will be to grab at least a ATI HD 4870 512MB if not the 1GB card. The 4850 X2 might also be a consideration.

For a 19" monitor, the 1GB card would be overkill. I have a 1GB 4870 that barely breaks a sweat with a 24" monitor at 1920x1200.

Even a 4850 512MB should be fine.

[KJAX]

For a 19" monitor, the 1GB card would be overkill. I have a 1GB 4870 that barely breaks a sweat with a 24" monitor at 1920x1200.

Even a 4850 512MB should be fine.

I plan on upgrading my monitor to at least a 22" if not a 24" in the future. :D

[biosc1]

Well, in that case, I can't recommend the 4870 enough :)

[Ancalagon]

Sigh, I'm considering upgrading. Why do I do this to myself?

My idea now, is to wait for the AM3 Phenom II's to be released, because currently Phenom II's seem to be the sweet spot as far as quad core performance goes, at least in the UK. I'd buy an AM3 Phenom II because, even though I wont be using DDR3, AM3 phenoms use less power and have a higher HT speed. And they are backwards compatible with AM2+ motherboards.

Although.... I bought AMD when I bought this PC, and I kinda got burned there cos I thought I would be able to upgrade to Phenom I, and that Phenom I would be made of win instead of fail. I was wrong on both counts. On the first count, I was wrong because MSI is a shitty motherboard manufacturer - Asus released a board using the exact same chipset as my MSI (the Nforce 570 SLI) and it supports Phenom, but mine doesnt, because MSI is too cheap or lazy.

Anyhoo.... so its not set in stone, and to be honest I dont do all that much PC gaming. but still, I like my toys for some perverted reason.

One more thing.... I bought this MS Wireless Optical Desktop 6000 recently, and although the mouse is not too bad the keyboard is terrible. How they designed the keys to be exactly wrong is something I'll never understand. And the keyboard misses keys sometimes. The left shift key is just way too small, I've had it for like a month now and I still press \ when I want to use shift. Irritates the crap out of me.

EDIT: The even more perverted thing is that I can buy an XBox 360 Premium for the price it costs to buy a Phenom II (the cheapest one at that). Since I dont own any of the 3rd gen consoles, I'm seriously considering that, but what puts me off are the generally higher price of software and the fact I've already invested a large amount of money into my PC. What attracts me obviously is the greater selection of games, including XBLA.

[biosc1]

I've fallen off the AMD bandwagon, so I'm not too sure about the Phenom II's? Are they worth the price compared to a fast dual core? Do you really need a quad core? Can you grab a board and a dual core AMD chip and upgrade later? DDR3 isn't worth it to me yet, either, in terms of performance gains. My 1066 and 800 sticks I have in separate computers definitely get the job done.

As for the keyboard...I hear your pain. My DiNovo lost it's charge last night (silly me ignoring the red blinky light for the last few days), so while I was charging it, I stuck in a Logitech board I borrowed from work. One of those $20 wonders. Man oh man, I had the worst experience typing on it...keys were all chunky, mis-types, etc...

[Crittias]

My current PC and all parts were bought when Half-Life 2 came out, so that I could play it. It's an AGP mobo, so it's time to reboot entirely. I'd appreciate comments on this build:

http://secure.newegg.com/WishList/PublicWishDetail.aspx?WishListNumber=7962174

EDIT: Pulled the trigger (with MUCH help from IRC).Looks like a great build! Have you gotten it put together yet?

[Ancalagon]

I've fallen off the AMD bandwagon, so I'm not too sure about the Phenom II's? Are they worth the price compared to a fast dual core? Do you really need a quad core? Can you grab a board and a dual core AMD chip and upgrade later? DDR3 isn't worth it to me yet, either, in terms of performance gains. My 1066 and 800 sticks I have in separate computers definitely get the job done.

As for the keyboard...I hear your pain. My DiNovo lost it's charge last night (silly me ignoring the red blinky light for the last few days), so while I was charging it, I stuck in a Logitech board I borrowed from work. One of those $20 wonders. Man oh man, I had the worst experience typing on it...keys were all chunky, mis-types, etc...

No, I'm not buying a dual core, and especially not a dual core AMD. I think my current dual core AMD is close to the fastest dual core AMD anyway. As for quad core, a few games already use that many cores and the number will just increase. For my price range, I think a quad core is probably ideal.

As for AMD vs Intel.... still havent really decided. At stock speeds, for £190, AMD would probably be slightly faster. Slightly. However, if I ever do any overclocking (and there are no guarantees either way) the Intel chip would by far be the better choice. It would probably still win in some or a lot of cases anyway. I'm having a harder and harder time convincing myself to buy AMD again.

EDIT: The other thing is that, this will probably be the last upgrade for this particular build. After that, at some point in the future, I will probably attemp to sell the PC. An upgrade will also go a long way towards making it a lot more marketable.

[LiquidRain]

Phenom IIs are a solid choice - neck and neck with Core 2 Quads. I need to rewrite the original post to reflect this.

[Xerxes]

Phenom IIs are a solid choice - neck and neck with Core 2 Quads. I need to rewrite the original post to reflect this.

Nowhere near i7s thought right?

[Ancalagon]

Nowhere near i7s thought right?

Looking at this (http://www.anandtech.com/cpuchipsets/showdoc.aspx?i=3492&p=18) review, a Phenom II at 2.8GHz is about equivalent to a Core 2 Quad at 2.66GHz, sometimes slower, while costing less. However, it is generally less power efficient and cant overclock as well.

Yes, its nowhere near i7.

[NotJeff]

Looks like a great build! Have you gotten it put together yet?

I received and assembled the parts last night. First, it would turn on (PSU/CPU/case/gpu fans and LEDs go), but no video out (and no case or mobo speaker, so I don't know if I was getting any warning beeps). Then I pulled the noncritical components and reseated the CPU heat sink/fan, and now when I power it up it turns on and off and on and off and on and off with about 1-to-2 second frequency. Frustrating.

[Ancalagon]

Stupid question, but have you made sure your GPU has power?

And all of the power connectors for your motherboard (there are usually 1 or 2, 1 main one and 1 auxillary one).

[NotJeff]

Stupid question, but have you made sure your GPU has power?

And all of the power connectors for your motherboard (there are usually 1 or 2, 1 main one and 1 auxillary one).

Yes, every indication is that I am getting power to mobo, cpu heatsink fan, and GPU. LEDs, fans, the works.

This video is the same behavior (but someone else's older Gigabyte motherboard):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y2Maiw3EMTU

[LiquidRain]

Nowhere near i7s thought right?
They're as close to i7s as Core 2 Quads are.

Which, for gaming, means they're the exact same.

If you want to wait for i7, you'll be waiting until at the very earliest August, and probably later. The massive drop in demand for computers has left Intel and motherboard makers with massive stocks of Core 2 Quads and P35 and P45 series chipsets that they're simply going to delay the launch of the mainstream version of i7 until stock clears out.

[Ancalagon]

They're as close to i7s as Core 2 Quads are.

Which, for gaming, means they're the exact same.

If you want to wait for i7, you'll be waiting until at the very earliest August, and probably later. The massive drop in demand for computers has left Intel and motherboard makers with massive stocks of Core 2 Quads and P35 and P45 series chipsets that they're simply going to delay the launch of the mainstream version of i7 until stock clears out.

Well, not quite. Core 2 Quads are just faster unfortunately, clock for clock. I mean, also more expensive, way more expensive, but you cant deny that they are faster.

I'm interested in the desktop version of i7, but yeah I also expect it to be a little delayed. Possibly AMD's AM3 CPU's too, but then again they have catching up to do.

When do you think we will see the next revision of graphics cards? Ie the 4875/4970?

[LiquidRain]

I'd have to ask my 8ball. ;)

Nah, I have no idea, there certainly aren't any games to take advantage of a new wave of cards. I can't imagine a reason for a new line of cards from ATI, since they're beating nVidia currently. And nVidia's already pulled out all the stops they got against ATI and it's not going too well. ATI trumped them.

[Xerxes]

Looking at this (http://www.anandtech.com/cpuchipsets/showdoc.aspx?i=3492&p=18) review, a Phenom II at 2.8GHz is about equivalent to a Core 2 Quad at 2.66GHz, sometimes slower, while costing less. However, it is generally less power efficient and cant overclock as well.

Yes, its nowhere near i7.

I thought the Phenom II were monster overclockers. If you are into that sort of thing I mean.

[LiquidRain]

They are, actually. They don't go above 4.0GHz, pretty much, but you can take them pretty far.

They are very, very nice chips, even if clock-for-clock C2Qs are faster. If I had to buy a machine today, I would buy a Phenom II and a GeForce 9400m mini-ITX motherboard. Sexy stuff.

[Xerxes]

My desktop died on me last night. I'll finally be replacing it with my Vostro 1500.

[LiquidRain]

Those jerks at In-Game Chat giving me a shout out forced me to give the topic an update!

I completely overhauled the entire platform, CPU, motherboard, and GPU sections.

[KJAX]

For those interested, the Razer Diamondback 3G (Frost Blue) is $29.99 at GoGamer (http://www.gogamer.com/Razer-Diamondback-3G--Frost-Blue--All-PC-Accessories_stcVVproductId26788959VVcatId444849VVv iewprod.htm) for their madness sale. I might go with it but really waiting for a DeathAdder Mouse to go lower.

[total]

Those jerks at In-Game Chat giving me a shout out forced me to give the topic an update!

I completely overhauled the entire platform, CPU, motherboard, and GPU sections.

I'd be cautious in recommending anything by Abit anymore. They were my board of choice for quite some time but they closed their doors as of December. Really bummed me out.

[Rogue_hunter]

I don't know if I can really recommend the current crop of P45-based Gigabyte boards. The system I built in November had a bad RAM channel from the get-go, and the replacement board's first RAM channel is exhibiting the same issues. Reading into it, apparently the entire crop of those boards has had problems. NotJeff couldn't even get the system to POST, and Gigabyte's decision to forgo an onboard speaker makes troubleshooting problematic.

[Banacek]

The MSI board you have linked seems to have been discontinued, just so you know.

[biosc1]

I received and assembled the parts last night. First, it would turn on (PSU/CPU/case/gpu fans and LEDs go), but no video out (and no case or mobo speaker, so I don't know if I was getting any warning beeps). Then I pulled the noncritical components and reseated the CPU heat sink/fan, and now when I power it up it turns on and off and on and off and on and off with about 1-to-2 second frequency. Frustrating.

Mine did the exact same thing...turned out it was the memory. The memory worked perfectly fine in another pc, but then wouldn't work in this particular board. I was lucky enough to have another set of RAM available and it worked just fine...

[NotJeff]

Mine did the exact same thing...turned out it was the memory. The memory worked perfectly fine in another pc, but then wouldn't work in this particular board. I was lucky enough to have another set of RAM available and it worked just fine...

If the memory worked fine in another motherboard, and the motherboard worked fine with other memory, I'd think it'd be at least as accurate to say the problem was the motherboard as that it was the memory.

Anyway. It sounds something like a BIOS setting incompatibility. Which of course is awful when you can't boot as far as a BIOS options menu.

[biosc1]

If the memory worked fine in another motherboard, and the motherboard worked fine with other memory, I'd think it'd be at least as accurate to say the problem was the motherboard as that it was the memory.

Anyway. It sounds something like a BIOS setting incompatibility. Which of course is awful when you can't boot as far as a BIOS options menu.

Well, it was most likely the motherboard BIOS. Once I had the motherboard up and running, I was able to update the BIOS. Didn't really feel like swapping sticks again, though. That computer liked the faster 1066 memory and my other computer got stuck with the 800 memory. I'll live with it for now.

[LiquidRain]

Updated it with some non-Gigabyte recommendations and tried my best to give good platform/CPU recommendations, especially since AMD introduced 5 new Phenom II chips today, and a couple of them are very interesting!

I love how AMD's back now. Makes me want to finally update my Socket 939 machine.

[KJAX]

For Phenom II CPUs, I would also recommend this (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813157141) ASRock mobo based on the 790GX chipset. It's solid money for the money with onboard video just in case you want a system up and running before you can grab a solid video card.

[Wraith]

just a note - there's a URL tag mixup in the Motherboards section.

[Wraith]

Oh! And something hardware related, I just came across a 22", IPS-based monitor that isn't off the market or insanely expensive.

The Dell UltraSharp 2209WA. Going for $299 US...and it has height adjustment (so many 22"s seem to forgo this feature).


Found here: Comprehensive List of S-IPS Based LCD Monitors (http://www.pchardwarehelp.com/guides/s-ips-lcd-list.php)
Dell (US) Small/Med Business product page (http://accessories.us.dell.com/sna/products/Displays/productdetail.aspx?c=us&l=en&cs=04&sku=320-7825) (didn't find it on the Home side of the site)
C|Net AU Review (http://www.cnet.com.au/desktops/monitors/0,239029422,339294389,00.htm)



http://snpi.dell.com/sna/images/products/large/320-7825new.jpg

[LiquidRain]

I know Wraith.

It has been taunting me for days now. I feel so powerless against its draw! I just want to whip out my credit card right now and order it, argh!

Fixed the mistag on that URL. Thanks for letting me know.

[biosc1]

Beautiful monitor...no scaler = no input lag :)

(from what I've read so far about the monitor).

[PathMaster]

E-IPS, that can be had for around $200. It is a great deal. Personally I am waiting to see what they do with a 23" and 24" versions. More connections please!!

[KJAX]

My new system is up and running.

Final specs:


E8400 Core 2 Duo
Gigabtye DS3L mobo
ATI 1800 XL 256MB Card
2 Gig OCZ DDR2 1066 RAM
160 GB Western Digital, 500 GB Seagate, and 750 Samsung Hard Drives
LG DVD/CD Burner
Antec Three Hundred Case
Antec Earthwatts 650 PSU
Windows Server 2008
19in KDS CRT Monitor



:D
Just ordered the Sapphire HD 4870 1 GB card (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814102801) for $214.99 after using a coupon code. I'll get an extra $10 off for sending in the rebate and Sapphire has honored rebates in the past. I considered going with just the 512MB card at $189 but spending $40 more (before the coupon) for double the memory made good sense. For anyone interested, there's the 4850 X2 1 GB card (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814102813) for $234.99. Again, typical 4850 X2 card are 2GB and priced closer to $300 so those wanting a cheaper X2 4850 could go for this. The 1 GB 4870 is more than adequate for my gaming needs.

[LiquidRain]

So what does the guy who make these "recommended specs" pages buy when he needs a new computer when his 8 year old server decides to start giving him trouble? (thus needing to change his desktop into a server, and get a new desktop!)

This!

AMD Phenom II X4 940 (http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819103471) Black Edition CPU
ASUS M3N78-VM MicroATX (http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813131318) GeForce 8200 Motherboard
Antec Mini P180 (http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811129044&Tpk=p180%20mini) (haven't decided between white or black yet)
Whatever 2x2GB DDR2-1066 RAM is in stock when I walk into the shop
Thermalright HR-01 Plus (http://ncix.com/products/index.php?sku=26000&vpn=HR-01%20Plus&manufacture=THERMALRIGHT) CPU heatsink

Carried over from my old box:
- Western Digital 640GB
- ASUS Xonar D2X
- Seasonic S12-II 500W (wish I had the Corsair 520 instead)
- A swack of 120mm Nexus Silent fans
- eVGA GeForce GTX 260 (vanilla)

[Crittias]

So what does the guy who make these "recommended specs" pages buy when he needs a new computer when his 8 year old server decides to start giving him trouble? (thus needing to change his desktop into a server, and get a new desktop!)

This!

AMD Phenom II X4 940 (http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819103471) Black Edition CPU
ASUS M3N78-VM MicroATX (http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813131318) GeForce 8200 Motherboard
Antec Mini P180 (http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811129044&Tpk=p180%20mini) (haven't decided between white or black yet)
Whatever 2x2GB DDR2-1066 RAM is in stock when I walk into the shop
Thermalright HR-01 Plus (http://ncix.com/products/index.php?sku=26000&vpn=HR-01%20Plus&manufacture=THERMALRIGHT) CPU heatsink

Carried over from my old box:
- Western Digital 640GB
- ASUS Xonar D2X
- Seasonic S12-II 500W (wish I had the Corsair 520 instead)
- A swack of 120mm Nexus Silent fansNo new videocard? Or old one?

[LiquidRain]

No new videocard? Or old one?
Haha, forgot about that. Carrying one over from my current box. GeForce GTX 260, edited in now. One of the major reasons for me picking AMD with an nVidia chipset was Hybrid Power, so I can shut down the noisy damned card when I'm not playing games, and switch to the passively cooled IGP. (yes I know all the caveats and what's required - I read up on this)

[Crittias]

Sounds like a nice system refresh, Liquid!

[KJAX]

So what does the guy who make these "recommended specs" pages buy when he needs a new computer when his 8 year old server decides to start giving him trouble? (thus needing to change his desktop into a server, and get a new desktop!)

This!

AMD Phenom II X4 940 (http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819103471) Black Edition CPU
ASUS M3N78-VM MicroATX (http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813131318) GeForce 8200 Motherboard
Antec Mini P180 (http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811129044&Tpk=p180%20mini) (haven't decided between white or black yet)
Whatever 2x2GB DDR2-1066 RAM is in stock when I walk into the shop
Thermalright HR-01 Plus (http://ncix.com/products/index.php?sku=26000&vpn=HR-01%20Plus&manufacture=THERMALRIGHT) CPU heatsink

Carried over from my old box:
- Western Digital 640GB
- ASUS Xonar D2X
- Seasonic S12-II 500W (wish I had the Corsair 520 instead)
- A swack of 120mm Nexus Silent fans
- eVGA GeForce GTX 260 (vanilla)

Congrats on the system. Nice!

[Jackel]

Out of curiosity Liquid. Now that the Core216 GTX 260's come close to matching in price / benchmarks the 4870.

Would you recommend an Nvidia since they can do Physx?

Also, are there any significant differences between the ATI / NVidia capabilities for Blu-ray playback?

[LiquidRain]

PhysX is a tricky subject, because nothing has really come out except Mirror's Edge (a good friend of mine did a great writeup about it (http://techreport.com/articles.x/16392) over at Tech Report) that uses it to any real nice effect, and I haven't heard of anything else that will be using it anytime soon either. (though, in theory, any Unreal 3 engine powered game can make use of it) It wouldn't affect my buying decision today, though. If I was buying a new card, I'd still pick the Radeon 4870.

On Windows, the playback from either for HD is equal - provided you have the PowerDVD or whatever software on hand that'll make use of it. On Linux/MythTV, ATI is (as always) not even in the same league as nVidia. If you're looking for a nice home theatre card, I just ordered a 9400GT passively cooled from Newegg from an off-brand named "Sparkle." I'm turning my server into a media centre PC, I'll be letting everyone know how that one goes in another thread. :)

[n3rdXcore]

Tax return time always means upgrading the ol' PC. I'm giving myself 300 to spend on a new power supply and a new video card. I know I want a modular power supply (right?) and I'm looking at this (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814102810) 4870. Problem is, I don't know if that will even fit in my case! There is a giant power connector on my mobo right at the end of my current video card (Radeon X850), which is only 7.5 inches long. The 4870 appears to be 9 inches long, and I'm worried that it will completely cover up that power connector. Also, I have no idea what kind of power supply I would need; that card requires 2 PCIe 6 pin connectors, but would a 6+2 pin work there as well? I'm looking at this (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817152035) power supply for its cheapness and relatively high ratings.

[LiquidRain]

I honestly shy away from recommending anything except Seasonic/Corsair. Even Antec power supplies I have had serious, plague-like problems with in recent years, so roll your dice if you can't swing either brand. (I know they're almost prohibitively expensive for most) But why would you require a new power supply? What's the brand and wattage on your current one? (as a general barometer)

The GeForce GTX 260/280 require a whopping 10.5" of length over the motherboard. The 4870 and 4850 require 9.5". A 6+2 pin works as long as you can take the extra "+2" off the connector. Keep in mind both series of cards also take up a 2nd slot underneath the actual card itself just to cool it - this may also bump into various parts on your motherboard. If it can't fit, you're SOL. :/

[Ancalagon]

PhysX is a tricky subject, because nothing has really come out except Mirror's Edge (a good friend of mine did a great writeup about it (http://techreport.com/articles.x/16392) over at Tech Report) that uses it to any real nice effect, and I haven't heard of anything else that will be using it anytime soon either. (though, in theory, any Unreal 3 engine powered game can make use of it) It wouldn't affect my buying decision today, though. If I was buying a new card, I'd still pick the Radeon 4870.


The other reason I'd avoid making purchasing decisions based on whether or not a card supports PhysX is Amdahls Law - basically, how many discrete applications would need to benefit from PhysX before it becomes valuable to the performance of the processor as a whole?

In this case, I would say PhysX needs a lot more titles than it currently supports for it to be worthwhile.

[n3rdXcore]

I honestly shy away from recommending anything except Seasonic/Corsair. Even Antec power supplies I have had serious, plague-like problems with in recent years, so roll your dice if you can't swing either brand. (I know they're almost prohibitively expensive for most) But why would you require a new power supply? What's the brand and wattage on your current one? (as a general barometer)

The GeForce GTX 260/280 require a whopping 10.5" of length over the motherboard. The 4870 and 4850 require 9.5". A 6+2 pin works as long as you can take the extra "+2" off the connector. Keep in mind both series of cards also take up a 2nd slot underneath the actual card itself just to cool it - this may also bump into various parts on your motherboard. If it can't fit, you're SOL. :/

My current power supply is old and doesn't have enough PCI-e connectors for a newer card. It's a moot point anyway; I discovered I would have to buy a new motherboard if I want a new (longer) video card, and if that's the case I may as well just upgrade the entire computer. :(

[Jackel]

Ok...Well my RMA for the video card was approved, and because the card had been deactivated by newegg I'm getting a refund.

My replacement

XFX Radeon 4870 XXX Edition - $279 (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814150339)

[ElektroDragon]

Havok > Physx. Havok is supported by ATI. Nvidia just likes to waste their money on Physx advertising.

[LiquidRain]

Havok > Physx. Havok is supported by ATI. Nvidia just likes to waste their money on Physx advertising.
Wait, you mean the same Havok that got bought by Intel about 18 months ago?

The same Havok that stopped making their GPU-based physics engine when said purchase happened?

[NotJeff]

I received and assembled the parts last night. First, it would turn on (PSU/CPU/case/gpu fans and LEDs go), but no video out (and no case or mobo speaker, so I don't know if I was getting any warning beeps). Then I pulled the noncritical components and reseated the CPU heat sink/fan, and now when I power it up it turns on and off and on and off and on and off with about 1-to-2 second frequency. Frustrating.

Update: The replacement motherboard SEEMS to have worked out of the box. I don't think I'll be buying a Gigabyte board next time, though.

[Cyndair]

I just wanted to stop in and say that I love this thread and that I'm sorry I never visited Immortal Machines before it merged with CoG. Great recommendations! Thanks for all of the good advice and hard work.

[LiquidRain]

Update: The replacement motherboard SEEMS to have worked out of the box. I don't think I'll be buying a Gigabyte board next time, though.
Yeah, I feel bad for recommending that board to everyone. I removed it off the list.

[Ghostbear]

Yeah, I feel bad for recommending that board to everyone. I removed it off the list.

*Waves fist*

[Wraith]

FWIW, my Gigabyte GA-P35-DS3R has been working just fine since my last build (Fall 2007).

[Jackel]

Yeah, I feel bad for recommending that board to everyone. I removed it off the list.

Feel free to add the UD3P. It has been working fine for me and seemed to be in a similar price range to the DS3L.

[Crittias]

FWIW, my Gigabyte GA-P35-DS3R has been working just fine since my last build (Fall 2007).Yeah, my Gigabyte p35 board has been a rock-solid performer as well.

[LiquidRain]

All these people ordered the P45 boards.

[Crittias]

All these people ordered the P45 boards.Understood. I'm just weighing in that my previous experience with Gigabyte mobos has been very good. This recent trend of bad mobos from them seems out of character. I hope it doesn't continue.

[Wackman3000]

FWIW, my Gigabyte GA-P35-DS3R has been working just fine since my last build (Fall 2007).

Another happy DS3R owner for 2 years now... To bad the quality didnt carry over into the P45 based boards.

[LiquidRain]

Could have been a faulty batch or something, yes. I stuck with ASUS. I've been buying ASUS boards with nVidia chipsets for all of my builds, never had a problem, and they're consistently the best performers, so I'm sticking with 'em.

[Bone]

I've had nothing but luck with my ASUS P5B, which I assume is the predecessor to the P5Q. Great board.

[KJAX]

My DS3L Gigabyte board has been going strong so it is still a safe recommendation in my opinion.

[KJAX]

The DeathAdder (http://www.gogamer.com/viewproduct.htm?productId=8533883&AID=171950&PID=1312731&extid=Feb2409) is on sale for GoGamer's 48 Hour Madness sale ($33 total with dirt cheap shipping). Just grabbed mine. Grab yours now.


Update: Out of stock.

[roboninja]

Damn, I am getting that "new build" itch. I built my new rig less than 1 year ago...go away itch!!

The only thing holding me back is the high cost of the i7 platform right now. I am almost hoping things stay that way for a while.

[LiquidRain]

Damn, I am getting that "new build" itch. I built my new rig less than 1 year ago...go away itch!!

The only thing holding me back is the high cost of the i7 platform right now. I am almost hoping things stay that way for a while.
It will. It'll be the end of the year by the time Core i7/i5 platforms will be affordable. (also, don't forget that they're no better for games than Core 2 Duo/Quad chips!)

[Bone]

I'm still on my Core2 Duo from 2007... I'll be watching this space for a signal to upgrade when the price/performance planets align perfectly. Honestly that last build has held on the longest of all my computers- I think all I changed was upgrading my video card.

[Wraith]

Here are a couple reviews of Thermalright's latest S775 non-tower heatsink (designed for HTPCs where heatsink height may be limited) the AXP-140:


X-bit labs (http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/coolers/display/thermalright-axp-140_2.html)
Overclockers Online (http://www.overclockersonline.net/?page=articles&num=2411&pnum=0)


http://www.xbitlabs.com/images/coolers/thermalright-axp-140/08_axp140_pb_small.jpg

It's 2.7" high and takes 120mm and 140mm fans. Thermalright product page (http://www.thermalright.com/new_a_page/product_page/cpu/axp140/product_cpu_axp140.html).

[LiquidRain]

Very nice! Thermalright makes awesome stuff. I'm using a HR-01 in my system, an HR-05 SLI in my HTPC, and would love to use a HR-03 GTX on my graphics card if it would fit. I don't like the "dip" clips they use in their heatsinks a whole lot, but.... they work very well, so I can't complain too much.

I just dropped a Scythe Mini-Ninja in my new HTPC, but that was Socket 939 so my choices were rather limited. (thank you Scythe, for making mounting very compatible)

[Wraith]

I'm using an Ultra-120A (2007+), used an XP-120 on my S939 (2005), and I think it's an SLK-700 on Socket A (2003). I've seen Sycthe's Ninja/Mini-Ninja series mentioned quite a bit at SPCR.

[LiquidRain]

The Mini-Ninja is excellent. I'd have gone for the full-size Ninja if it wasn't for the fact that a monster of a heatsink used the stock plastic brackets that come with the motherboard. I just can't bring myself to trust it.

Though, some Thermalrights (like the one I bought) orient the wrong way on AM2 sockets. :( I got bitten by this, but it's on a mini P180 with the vent going up, so I'm not particularly caring.

[Psykoboy2]

I've re-spec'd my build from June of 08 and replaced what needed to be replaced (glad I held off on the Giga P45).

Due to money, of course, this will be a slow build. Probably one part per paycheck.

[Wackman3000]

The Mini-Ninja is excellent. I'd have gone for the full-size Ninja if it wasn't for the fact that a monster of a heatsink used the stock plastic brackets that come with the motherboard. I just can't bring myself to trust it.

Though, some Thermalrights (like the one I bought) orient the wrong way on AM2 sockets. :( I got bitten by this, but it's on a mini P180 with the vent going up, so I'm not particularly caring.


Liquid, I am running the fullsized Scythe Ninja and it came with several mounting brackets, one of which was NOT plastic. No doubt it's a beast, especially with the massive fan mounted to it, but it does a fantastic job at keeping my overclocked Q6600 below 40C and rarely much higher.

[LiquidRain]

Liquid, I am running the fullsized Scythe Ninja and it came with several mounting brackets, one of which was NOT plastic. No doubt it's a beast, especially with the massive fan mounted to it, but it does a fantastic job at keeping my overclocked Q6600 below 40C and rarely much higher.
On AM2 sockets, the mounting system (as far as I know) has you simply clip it on to the motherboard's heatsink bracket. Which is plastic. 1kg of cantilever force applying on a plastic square. I simply don't trust it.

[biosc1]

I've re-spec'd my build from June of 08 and replaced what needed to be replaced (glad I held off on the Giga P45).

Due to money, of course, this will be a slow build. Probably one part per paycheck.

You're better off to hold off and buy all the parts at once when you have all the money gathered. Parts always drop in price. It sucks to buy the last part and then see that the first part you bought dropped in price before you even built the system.

[Bone]

Even worse, it sucks to have all the parts sitting around untested, and to be way too late to RMA them when you get around to building it and something breaks.

[Psykoboy2]

RMA's a good point, Bone. I guess I'll just start setting aside the money then. Don't really like that, but oh well.

[Veregon]

Liquid, any update on the latest processor offerings from AMD? I have about $500 to spend on MB/Processor/RAM to finally upgrade my from X2 4800+. I'm pretty sure my power supply is 550W or more (I stupidly went SLI when I built this system a few years ago) so I don't think I need a new one. I was thinking of trying out the three core AMD as an entryway into current gen. I currently have an 8800GT and I think I'll stick with it for the time being until a little more money comes as I don't think I could fit a new card in under the $500 mark.

[LiquidRain]

...as an entryway into current gen.
Anything you buy now is a dead platform that won't get you much juice in the future. Just FYI. AM3 (DDR3 AMD) and Core i7 aren't worth the purchase price, and AM2 (DDR2 AMD) has probably just about reached its end of life with the Phenom IIs. Probably a few faster chips but that's about it. LGA 775 is the true dead end, with no future or faster chips coming. Ever.

The Phenom X3 is a marvelous value though. Go by Tech Report's (http://techreport.com/articles.x/16438) system guide, they're making solid recommendations.

That said, I just bought myself an AMD Phenom II X4 940 machine.

late edit instead of double post: the 4870 is indeed at $150. Jesus that's a steal.

[Veregon]

So it's not worth getting an AM3 MB even if I get cheaper DDR3 RAM (http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&N=2000170147%201052315794%201052429231&name=DDR3%201066%20(PC3%208500)) for now?

Also, where do you see the 4870 (http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&N=2010380048%201305520549%20106792627%201067940678&bop=And&Order=PRICE)for $150?

Thanks for the input!

[LiquidRain]

So it's not worth getting an AM3 MB even if I get cheaper DDR3 RAM (http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&N=2000170147%201052315794%201052429231&name=DDR3%201066%20(PC3%208500)) for now?

Also, where do you see the 4870 (http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&N=2010380048%201305520549%20106792627%201067940678&bop=And&Order=PRICE)for $150?

Thanks for the input!
Huh, when did DDR3 get that cheap at the low-end. I'm still not sure I'd buy it, but if you'd rather stick with AM3 for any future processor upgrades, go with that.

I'd give the 4870 another couple days for the price to ripple down the line. If you don't mind mail in rebates, here's one (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814131140&nm_mc=AFC-Techreport&cm_mmc=AFC-Techreport-_-NA-_-NA-_-NA) for $154 after MIR.

[Veregon]

In thinking some more about it, I may just get the Phenom II X3 Black and an AM2+ MB to use it on and stick with everything else I have for now (4gb DDR2 800, 8800GT) for a $250 upgrade and save the rest for when AM3 is at a better price point.

[LiquidRain]

In thinking some more about it, I may just get the Phenom II X3 Black and an AM2+ MB to use it on and stick with everything else I have for now (4gb DDR2 800, 8800GT) for a $250 upgrade and save the rest for when AM3 is at a better price point.
An extremely solid choice. :) Get a MicroATX motherboard with an integrated graphics chip (like the ASUS M3N78 I just bought or the equivalent ATI variety) and you can turn that baby into a good media centre PC after it's done its duty as a desktop.

[axion]

Just switched my fans in my 900 from high to low, and what a difference it makes! No longer sounds like an airfield in my room.

[LiquidRain]

Now replace your heatsink with a Scythe Ninja and an undervolted fan, and then slap a Thermalright HR-03 on your video card.

You will be blessed with silence and you'll never go back to noisy computing again. :)

[axion]

Meh I've got some pretty quiet OCZ thing on there and my 8800 GT isn't too noisy. Just the fan noise is an incredible difference though. Used to actually bug me when I was reading and stuff in my room.

[Jackel]

Just switched my fans in my 900 from high to low, and what a difference it makes! No longer sounds like an airfield in my room.

I've been meaning to do that. I have this list of things I need to do for the computer.

a) Dust it
b) turn down the case fans and see how that affects my temps, and try the same with my cpu cooler.
c) Turn CPU power saving back on and see if its stable w/ my overclocks
d) Mod my video card's bios to drop the voltage and frequency during non-gaming / UVD usage. + increased fan control.
e) Remove the jumpers on my SATA drives so I can get full speed (no clue why I didn't do this before).
f) I might try and push my overclock up to 4ghz instead of sitting at 3.8 we'll see how temps / noise do.

[harle]

I know this processor has been a hot topic around the forums lately, so I thought this deal might interest a few of you:

AMD Phenom II 940 3Ghz Quad Core Black Edition AM2+ Processor (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?nm_mc=AFC-SlickDeals&cm_mmc=AFC-SlickDeals-_-NA-_-NA-_-NA&Item=N82E16819103471)
Price: $200 - $10 coupon code (AMD3410) = $190 + free shipping

[Wraith]

X-bit labs has a 1TB hard drive roundup (http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/storage/display/1tb-14hdd-roundup.html), covering desktop drives from Hitachi, Samsung, Seagate, and Western Digital.

One of the WD Green Power drives is recommended quite highly, especially for a quiet/HTPC build. But I noticed on SPCR that the Green Power drives may have longevity issues in some configurations.

WARNING: WD Green Power drives may kill themselves (http://www.silentpcreview.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=51401) (SPCR Forums)
Western Digital GreenPower drives head parking problem (http://episteme.arstechnica.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/24609792/m/481009715931) (Ars Technica forums)

[Ancalagon]

I know this processor has been a hot topic around the forums lately, so I thought this deal might interest a few of you:

AMD Phenom II 940 3Ghz Quad Core Black Edition AM2+ Processor (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?nm_mc=AFC-SlickDeals&cm_mmc=AFC-SlickDeals-_-NA-_-NA-_-NA&Item=N82E16819103471)
Price: $200 - $10 coupon code (AMD3410) = $190 + free shipping

its amazing to think that we pay 190 POUNDS for that thing, never mind dollars.

[Wraith]

Another interesting review. The Nexus Value 430 (http://www.silentpcreview.com/article922-page1.html) is the quietest power supply tested by Silent PC Review.Most PC enthusiasts do not run dual-video card behemoths than demand a kilowatt. Even with a high performance graphics card, a typical modern dual/quad core CPU system with lots of RAM and a couple of hard drives will not demand more power than the Value 430 can deliver. (See the idle and full load power demand of various systems profiled on page four of Power Supply Fundamentals (http://www.silentpcreview.com/article28-page4.html).) For the noise, energy and value conscious power user, it's a perfect balance: Virtual silence, low enough energy use, adequate power, and a very friendly $80 price tag.

[PathMaster]

X-bit labs has a 1TB hard drive roundup (http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/storage/display/1tb-14hdd-roundup.html), covering desktop drives from Hitachi, Samsung, Seagate, and Western Digital.

One of the WD Green Power drives is recommended quite highly, especially for a quiet/HTPC build. But I noticed on SPCR that the Green Power drives may have longevity issues in some configurations.

WARNING: WD Green Power drives may kill themselves (http://www.silentpcreview.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=51401) (SPCR Forums)
Western Digital GreenPower drives head parking problem (http://episteme.arstechnica.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/24609792/m/481009715931) (Ars Technica forums)


Hmm, I sense an uprising. Newegg has had several times for a "Shell Shocker" deal the Green 1 TB drives. I even grabbed on for a friend. I will have to do some research.

[Wraith]

Hmm, I sense an uprising. Newegg has had several times for a "Shell Shocker" deal the Green 1 TB drives. I even grabbed on for a friend. I will have to do some research.Well, it doesn't look like it's a problem in every case, or even in a majority of cases. But I guess someone considering a WD Green Power drive would do well to look into the issue, to see if they'd be affected.

[Banacek]

Hey, I'm looking to build a MythTV box, and I was wondering what you guys would recommend for a good HTPC case.

[LiquidRain]

Banacek: Antec NSK 2400. Review here. (http://www.silentpcreview.com/article591-page1.html) I'd have gotten one if the old system I was turning into an XBMC box wasn't full ATX.

I'd highly recommend either an AMD 4850e combined with a GeForce 8200 motherboard, or an Intel C2D E5200 with a GeForce 9400 board. With a GF8200 board, you may have to purchase something like a passively cooled 9400GT (ASUS has got one coming out that should be hitting retail real-soon-now in the 50-60 range) in order to hardware accel 1080p video.

Pair it with a Scythe Mini-Ninja heatsink (I HIGHLY RECOMMEND YOU GET IT, I consider it a MUST for a HTPC and at least for AMD systems it's as easy to mount as the stock heatsink) and some Scythe Slipstream L fans for on-the-cheap quiet! (make sure to get Slipstream fans denoted by an L - the M and H fans are nowhere near quiet)

And Wraith: I don't have time to read the thread over at SPCR, but it sounds like an easy fix. My Seagate laptop drive that powers my HTPC box (when the media drive is not needed) parks its head constantly. A simple hdparm -B 254 /dev/sda fixes it right up.

[Psykoboy2]

Hey, I'm looking to build a MythTV box, and I was wondering what you guys would recommend for a good HTPC case.

Well, first, listen to LiquidRain...and then talk to Straximus if you get stuck. Dude KNOWS his Myth box.

[Banacek]

Banacek: Antec NSK 2400. Review here. (http://www.silentpcreview.com/article591-page1.html) I'd have gotten one if the old system I was turning into an XBMC box wasn't full ATX.

I'd highly recommend either an AMD 4850e combined with a GeForce 8200 motherboard, or an Intel C2D E5200 with a GeForce 9400 board. With a GF8200 board, you may have to purchase something like a passively cooled 9400GT (ASUS has got one coming out that should be hitting retail real-soon-now in the 50-60 range) in order to hardware accel 1080p video.

Pair it with a Scythe Mini-Ninja heatsink (I HIGHLY RECOMMEND YOU GET IT, I consider it a MUST for a HTPC and at least for AMD systems it's as easy to mount as the stock heatsink) and some Scythe Slipstream L fans for on-the-cheap quiet! (make sure to get Slipstream fans denoted by an L - the M and H fans are nowhere near quiet)

And Wraith: I don't have time to read the thread over at SPCR, but it sounds like an easy fix. My Seagate laptop drive that powers my HTPC box (when the media drive is not needed) parks its head constantly. A simple hdparm -B 254 /dev/sda fixes it right up.

Awesome. Thanks so much for the advice. Oddly enough, I'm finally upgrading my Xbox that is running XBMC. I don't think I've ever used more reliable software. I'm kind of sad getting rid of it, since I've used it longer as a media center then I did as a gaming console :)

Well, first, listen to LiquidRain...and then talk to Straximus if you get stuck. Dude KNOWS his Myth box.

Sweet. Thanks for the heads up!

[Wraith]

And Wraith: I don't have time to read the thread over at SPCR, but it sounds like an easy fix. My Seagate laptop drive that powers my HTPC box (when the media drive is not needed) parks its head constantly. A simple hdparm -B 254 /dev/sda fixes it right up.From what I read of the thread, hdparm won't work on the GP drives. There's a WD utility out there, but it may not actually solve the problem.

[LiquidRain]

Awesome. Thanks so much for the advice. Oddly enough, I'm finally upgrading my Xbox that is running XBMC. I don't think I've ever used more reliable software. I'm kind of sad getting rid of it, since I've used it longer as a media center then I did as a gaming console :)
Well, it may not record TV like Myth does, but XBMC does have a Linux port that works EXTREMELY well and is quite easy to install under Ubuntu. :) (I was actually going to use Mythbuntu, and installed it, and then uninstalled all the Myth stuff in favour of XBMC since I have no need to record TV)

From what I read of the thread, hdparm won't work on the GP drives. There's a WD utility out there, but it may not actually solve the problem.
Good going, WD. Ugh.

[Wraith]

I guess I should specify. It looked like hdparm wasn't able to change the setting on GP drives that would fix this problem. It may work in other capacities, I don't know. I'm not really familiar with the command, myself.