Your Guide to a Magic PC - Guide in First Post [2012/03/05]

[J Arcane]

No worries, just chiming in with my personal experience.
Yeah, it's cool. I just wanted to avoid spending too much, and it looks like I can.

Everyone's situation is different. If I still had my DS or PSP, or the wii, I might want a dual band because I'd need to be able to run both signals.

As for UPS system, the APC recommendation tool is a filthy liar. The cheapest it would recommend me was a $350 supply I would only be using half the capacity of, despite that I only asked for 20% padding. I just can't afford that much, and I don't think it's necessary to have it with my set up even with their own numbers.

[PathMaster]

They are better, but you must have the adapter that can actually take advantage of the dual band. And a kitchen wall is knocking your wifi down that much? Jeez, wth is in that wall?

Heh, Grab a kil-a-watt device then and actually measure. Fairly cheap devices.

[J Arcane]

They are better, but you must have the adapter that can actually take advantage of the dual band. And a kitchen wall is knocking your wifi down that much? Jeez, wth is in that wall?

Heh, Grab a kil-a-watt device then and actually measure. Fairly cheap devices.
I dont think it's the wall, it's all the appliances. At my old place, I got great signal, except I'd the kitchen was between me and the router, then it was not so hot.

It could have been the cheap Qwest/Actiontec DSL router's fault though, I may not have any problems with proper equipment.

[J Arcane]

Irritatingly, Office Max did not actually sell any 5ghz routers that weren't also dual band. All the non dual band boxes and adapters were 2.4ghz only. Oh well, I guess I can still get that DS after all. :/

[Handmade.Mercury]

Irritatingly, Office Max did not actually sell any 5ghz routers that weren't also dual band. All the non dual band boxes and adapters were 2.4ghz only. Oh well, I guess I can still get that DS after all. :/

I think a lot of routers nowadays are giving the option to switch it between 2.4 GHz and 5.0 GHz modes but not broadcast them simultaneously. But yeah, not sure about Office Max's selection; I haven't been there in forever.

[J Arcane]

I think a lot of routers nowadays are giving the option to switch it between 2.4 GHz and 5.0 GHz modes but not broadcast them simultaneously. But yeah, not sure about Office Max's selection; I haven't been there in forever.
Yeah, that was my understanding too. However, everything in Office Max's selection was 2.4ghz only. I suspect it's because b/g hardware will only run with 2.4ghz, so they probably just don't stock anything else because b/g is what most people will have still.

It would've been nice to have the 5ghz for the added interference resistance, but if I have problems I'll just upgrade next term.

[Slack3r78]

So what's the deal with dual band?
Simultaneous dual band routers have two separate radio chipsets to deal with each band at the same time. That's why they're more expensive than routers than are simply selectable band.

Highly, highly recommend the Cisco E3000. Newegg routinely has them for $60-70 new, and even cheaper refurbed. Simul dual band. Best range I've seen on any consumer router, by far. I can get usable signal with my Touchpad a solid 250-300 feet outside a building I hadn't been able to make other off the shelf gear reach more than about 30 feet.

They run DD-WRT beautifully and even the out of the box firmware isn't half bad (and I'm pretty notoriously picky about networking gear). It'd be a great router even if it were single band.

EDIT:

In fact, Newegg's running a special on them again right now:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16833124388&cm_sp=Spotlight-_-33-124-388-_-01262012

[Karak]

Here you go. (http://www.newegg.ca/Store/SubCategory.aspx?SubCategory=509&name=RAID-Enclosures&Order=PRICED) Don't buy a POS. Go read reviews. Plenty of options in there for 8-bay RAID. I couldn't find it before or I would have linked it sooner.

Get serious about storage if your data is important to you. If you have 19TB and a single drive failure would cause you to lose any data, you are being criminally negligent and I'd say you simply don't care about your data at all if this is the case. Harsh, but true.

GET. FUCKING. SERIOUS. ABOUT. BACKUPS. AND. RESILIENCY. I can't yell this enough. GET. SERIOUS. This is an intervention.

Also I will drill this into your head if you're thinking about using a RAID box so you can survive a drive failure:

RAID IS NOT A BACKUP SOLUTION.
RAID IS NOT A BACKUP SOLUTION.
RAID IS NOT A BACKUP SOLUTION.

Read the first review of the most expensive 8-bay Sans Digital RAID box. "A power outage wiped out my RAID array." This is called a single point of failure and that's why RAID IS NOT A BACKUP SOLUTION. If you're dependent, on any level in any way, on a single device, and there's nothing to take the place of that device when it dies, that's a single point of failure. If your RAID box explodes and the company no longer makes that model and you need to start your RAID array from scratch? Thieves break into your house and take your PC and RAID box? You screw up making dinner and have an oil fire and your house burns down? You start from zero.

RAID IS NOT A BACKUP SOLUTION. Redundancy, resiliency, backups. Do 'em.

Bit of a condescending rant there, but if you're dependent on those drives and you don't have any data resiliency or backups (or MULTIPLE backups) you're practically begging for your data to be lost.

I don't have as much data to manage as you, but this is my chain.

1. My phone backs up automatically to its MicroSD card weekly. Every once in a while I copy it over to my PC.
2. Every couple of weeks, or when I have important new files, I sync my laptop and PC files together. This is my first layer of redundancy - both my PC and laptop share the same files I value most. Emails, settings, encrypted storage (passwords, info, tax files, etc), and the music I like most.
3. My PC backs up to my home theatre PC/server, which runs 2 drives in RAID 1. This includes all movies and games - larger stuff that can be re-obtained or that I don't mind losing as much. This is the second layer of redundancy and acts as an immediate, available backup as well as drive failure resiliency.
4. I then backup to 2 external drives in rotation. Third layer of redundancy and second layer of resiliency. I don't keep these disks at home - they go in a safe place at another location. Every month I bring one of the drives home and do a full copy from my PC to the external disk. The next month I bring the other disk home. This allows me to reach back 2 months ago if I lost a file or if a file has gotten corrupted on any of the other storage layers.

My data is my life. I have no idea what I'd do if I lost all my data. It would be devastating.

I don't use raid at all right now. But all the data is almost uploaded to Crashplan anyway which is then doing differential updates every day. I have lost all my music samples maybe 3-4 times in the last 2 years due to 2 desk failures, and 1 wrestling match that knocked all of them off the desk. I am not too worried now that its almost all on crashplan but thought I would ask if maybe there was a good solution. Unless of course Crashplan goes out of service...on the other hand. Shit happens.

I don't ever get attached to that stuff too much. I have had to redownload so many times I am surprised comcast hasn't sued me for monopolizing the net. It just sucks top take time is all. UHG. But those boxes too expensive for me after already getting the drives and such. May just go with 4 esata bays as I use them at work and they have never failed me yet.

[Xerxes]

Question. Not sure if I asked this already but something been coming up steadily. Tearing. Can this be a issue with the monitors (Asus VH238H (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16824236117))? I squint my eyes to the monitors be cause I want to believe the settings, graphic cards, connections are all fine. Maybe I'm missing a step in making them work? Something in the GPU settings?

...help...

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q119/Xerionus/Settings1.png
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q119/Xerionus/Settings6.png
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q119/Xerionus/Settings2.png
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q119/Xerionus/Settings3.png
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q119/Xerionus/Settings4.png
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q119/Xerionus/Settings5.png

[BLeeP]

I am about to pull the trigger on this build:

Fractal Design Arc Midi Black High Performance PC Computer Case w/ USB 3.0 and 3 x Fractal High Performance 140mm fans (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811352007)

Seagate Barracuda ST31000524AS 1TB 7200 RPM SATA 6.0Gb/s 3.5" Internal Hard Drive -Bare Drive (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822148697)

EVGA 01G-P3-1561-AR GeForce GTX 560 Ti FPB (Fermi) 1GB (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814130604)

CORSAIR Enthusiast Series TX750 750W PSU (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817139021)

CORSAIR Vengeance 8GB (2 x 4GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1600 (PC3 12800) Desktop Memory Model CMZ8GX3M2A1600C9B (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820145345)

MSI P67A-G43 (B3) LGA 1155 Intel P67 SATA 6Gb/s USB 3.0 ATX Intel Motherboard (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813130583)

Intel Core i5-2500K Sandy Bridge 3.3GHz (3.7GHz Turbo Boost) LGA 1155 95W Quad-Core Desktop Processor Intel HD Graphics 3000 ... (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819115072)

Corsair Force Series 3 CSSD-F120GB3A-BK 2.5" 120GB SATA III Internal Solid State Drive (SSD) (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820233206)

Any last minute suggestions? Thanks in advance :D.

[Wackman3000]

It looks great to me. Infact, it's a very similar build to what quite a few of us have been building in the past couple months, myself included.

The only thing I would make mention of is that I'm not a fan of the MSI motherboard, after having some issues with MSI in the past. This is the mobo that myself and a few others have been recommending as a solid performer for a good price. However, if you are looking to save a bit of money, I'm sure the MSI will work fine.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813131770

Another thing to note is that you might want to get on newegg.com's mailing list, since they will sometimes have sale prices to items that won't show up just normally browsing the site. For example, I know that i5 2500k CPU has been as low as $199.99 in the past.

I'm happy to see everyone jumping on the Fractal Design bandwagon. I love my Arc Midi case and it was nothing but a pleasure to build in. It does everything right in terms of cable management while having an ample cooling solution right out of the box and being very quiet to boot.

Enjoy!

[BLeeP]

Thank you kindly, sir! I actually chose that case because I saw you lauding it. And now you have me debating the motherboard >_<.

I am on Newegg's mailing list and have seen such deals, but I'm impatient and there isn't anything going on right now.

[Wackman3000]

Thank you kindly, sir! I actually chose that case because I saw you lauding it. And now you have me debating the motherboard >_<.

I am on Newegg's mailing list and have seen such deals, but I'm impatient and there isn't anything going on right now.

Like I said, the mobo thing is more a brand preference than anything. I also like the UEFI BIOS that Asus is putting in these things. It's a very simple and easy to use interface.

And yes, the case is fantastic. One thing to note is that the fan air filters actually do a damn good job, which means that you need to clean them out every couple months depending on the house you reside in. It's a big of a hassle getting the front one off since you need to disconnect the fan plug first, but otherwise it's pretty simple.

[LiquidRain]

Question. Not sure if I asked this already but something been coming up steadily. Tearing. Can this be a issue with the monitors (Asus VH238H (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16824236117))? I squint my eyes to the monitors be cause I want to believe the settings, graphic cards, connections are all fine. Maybe I'm missing a step in making them work? Something in the GPU settings?
Try unticking "Alternate DVI Operational Mode." You shouldn't need that, though it is enabled by default. And what game are you seeing this in? Lots of games I've played suffer from what people are starting to call "microstuttering" - the reported FPS says 60 but there's very slight timing issues that cause it to go off sync and tear. It particularly plagues SLI/Crossfire setups, and on single cards games like Assassin's Creed in particular are a huge culprit. (Deus Ex: HR had huge stuttering issues too, though not of the micro variety)

When testing, vsync issues are most apparent when slowly panning, so just slooooooowly move the mouse around and watch vertical lines like the edges of buildings or some such for breaks. It should be fairly obvious.

Any last minute suggestions? Thanks in advance :D.
I'd go with a Samsung Spinpoint F3 or a Western Digital Black over the Seagate any day. They perform much better than any Seagate. (the F3 is fastest with the WD not far behind) Pay attention to warranties though, all HDD manufacturers just killed almost all their warranty periods using the Thailand floods as an excuse, so find a drive that boasts a long warranty.

My personal favourite motherboard is currently this little guy. (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813131786) You get the overclocking of a P67 with onboard graphics support to give the PC a retirement path to a HTPC as well as give the PC a backup video card to run on should your main one die on you. Plus it's cheaper. If you don't need 7 PCI slots (do you, really?) then MicroATX motherboards are the way to go.

Much like Wackman I tend to favour ASUS boards. They have a strong reliability history, and easily the best UEFI BIOS interface. You can't really go wrong with 'em, though they do command a bit of a price premium.

[BLeeP]

How big of a speed difference are we talking because I mainly decided on the Seagate because it is not only cheap, but it also comes with a free DVD drive (which I was tempted not to even grab one but figured it isn't a bad idea to have it just in case)?

[Xerxes]

Thanks Liquid. Normally I see it movies or tv. I see it in games too, but I really don't notice until like cut scenes. As far as games go, I notice it more when i play 360 through the HDMI setting. Again no bad, just not great. But then that's why I wonder if it's the monitors as there are know settings to change when going through a console on hdmi. Not that I can find.

[LiquidRain]

How big of a speed difference are we talking because I mainly decided on the Seagate because it is not only cheap, but it also comes with a free DVD drive (which I was tempted not to even grab one but figured it isn't a bad idea to have it just in case)?
You'll need a DVD drive to install Windows, so keep it around for that at least. :) And it's a noticeable speed difference but it's not like you'll be stuck in the 90s with Seagate, either. And with an SSD it won't affect your Windows much, and you're talking about a difference of single-digit seconds when it comes to loading in games.

Thanks Liquid. Normally I see it movies or tv. I see it in games too, but I really don't notice until like cut scenes. As far as games go, I notice it more when i play 360 through the HDMI setting. Again no bad, just not great. But then that's why I wonder if it's the monitors as there are know settings to change when going through a console on hdmi. Not that I can find.
Consoles have huge problems with vsync, tearing, and framerates. :) As for movies and TV, is that off your PC? If so it could be the media player, the encode, or any number of dizzying problems. Or you could be right and it *is* the monitor. Especially if you're not running at its native resolution. I really don't know how to help you from here, vsync sounds like such a simple thing but for some reason, after decades, it's still a huge issue.

[Karak]

Thank you kindly, sir! I actually chose that case because I saw you lauding it. And now you have me debating the motherboard >_<.

I am on Newegg's mailing list and have seen such deals, but I'm impatient and there isn't anything going on right now.

Sign me up as another person with a bit of a sore spot for MSI boards...actually a pretty big bone to pick with them.

[BLeeP]

Eh, I went ahead and took your advice with the mobo and the HDD. I'm easily swayed 8-P. And get with the times, man! All the cool kids are installing Windows 7 from thumb drives these days using the official Microsoft tool.

[Ghostbear]

You'll need a DVD drive to install Windows, so keep it around for that at least. :) And it's a noticeable speed difference but it's not like you'll be stuck in the 90s with Seagate, either. And with an SSD it won't affect your Windows much, and you're talking about a difference of single-digit seconds when it comes to loading in games.




I installed windows off a flash drive.

[LiquidRain]

Fair enough! I just keep a portable DVD drive around. Works for me. :)

[PathMaster]

7 New SandyBridge (https://news.google.com/news/url?sa=t&ct2=us%2F0_0_s_0_0_t&usg=AFQjCNFe-Ha8lJ4-fzgUgEXwO1kCRywRhg&did=ea3e2cdb9a266554&sig2=VmB_PHIxEzcSD-7F58Kj1A&cid=8797798599856&ei=_AEnT8jtJ432gAfiRQ&rt=STORY&vm=STANDARD&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.anandtech.com%2Fshow%2F5475%2 Fintel-releases-seven-sandy-bridge-cpus).

the i5-2550K replacing the i5-2500K, the i5-2450P replacing the i5-2400 and the i5-2380P replacing the i5-2320.

[Crittias]

the i5-2550K replacing the i5-2500K, the i5-2450P replacing the i5-2400 and the i5-2380P replacing the i5-2320.Add 50 to the designation, add $50 to the price?

[Handmade.Mercury]

And remove integrated graphics while they're at it.

[LiquidRain]

Yeah it makes things super confusing.

The i5-2500k and i5-2500 are still my choices - the new ones don't really add anything to the table.

[Karak]

Guys. Does anyone know of a program like Revouninstaller or other uninstallers but that also SAVES and allows for export of the registry entries for particular programs?

Windows 7 is borked on me and after about 11 hours yesterday I traced it to a SSD drive error that wasn't corrected. All my backups were effected and sadly the error only comes up now as I am updating some software and have found various issues. And repair hasn't fixed it.

I have all the data, haven't lost anything. I just know that exporting particular reg entries could take perhaps more than a day, probably just for the music stuff. I was hoping for something that scans the installed programs, checks the registries and saves particular entries for later importing after a reinstall.

Thanks!

EDIT: Hmm. Found Emco Remote. Might give that a whirl for the easier ones.

[J Arcane]

I'm concerned my roommate's machine may be a virus infested whore. It is full of toolbars and things, and recently my iTunes password was stolen.

I wish to ensure that it is not allowed access to information on the rest of the network. Is there a way to quarantine it somehow, so that it still gets access to the Internet, but can't, say, packet sniff traffic on the LAN?

I have the Netgear WNR2000 router, if that helps. If it also helps, it is apparently DD-WRT compatible, so I can install that if needs be.

[PathMaster]

How is the computer connected, LAN, Wifi? I know with my Buffalo with DD-WRT I can isolate things, so I assume that would be a DD-WRT thing.

[J Arcane]

My computer and my iPad are connected via WiFi, he is connected via LAN directly to the router.

[PathMaster]

If that is the case, then yea should be no problem. Not sure of NetGears firmware OOB, but it may have a setting available, buried deep in the setup. I have not setup one of those in a year, so I am unsure about what or where it might be. On the other hand, DD-WRT (http://www.howtogeek.com/56612/turn-your-home-router-into-a-super-powered-router-with-dd-wrt/) makes it very easy to isolate networks, Lan VS Wifi, Wifi v Wifi, and apparently, even via port (http://www.geek-pages.com/articles-for-geeks-mainmenu-2/1-latest/27-dd-wrt-setting-up-a-separate--isolated-vlan-on-port-4-with-dhcp).

Edit: Check your current firmware, looks like network isolation may be on there already.

[J Arcane]

Hmm. It looks like I can isolate the wireless connection, but not the LAN.

Wireless isolation does this:

If checked, the wireless client under this SSID can only access internet and it can‘t access other wireless clients even under the same SSID, Ethernet clients or this device. Other clients can‘t access the wireless client, either.

I guess this technically works, except I don't want to isolate my PC from my iPad as I have applications that share from PC to iPad.

Maybe it's time I install DD-WRT.

EDIT: Or not. My revision is not supported. Son of a bitch.

[Dahzer the Cosmic Fool]

im no technically guru or even a semi tech person but im pretty sure you can isolate it pretty easily, i have at times 2 desktops and up wards of 5ish laptops in my place sometimes and they dont get access to each other

[PathMaster]

Heh. Netgears are awesome for their simplicity of setup, but damn them if you want to do anything more. I would run some combofix on his computer, or Firewall the crap out of his computer or your side of things.

[Slack3r78]

My computer and my iPad are connected via WiFi, he is connected via LAN directly to the router.

If he's plugged into the switched LAN you don't have to worry about his machine sniffing your traffic. Switched LAN is isolated by nature.

If you don't want his machine to be able to talk to yours at all, you'd have to move him to a separate VLAN. You can do that with DD-WRT but it would take a lot more effort than a simple click of a checkbox.

tl;dr - his machine can't passively snoop on your traffic as-is.

[J Arcane]

OK, that's good to know.

I can't get DD-WRT anyway, because my revision of the hardware is not supported.

[Ghostbear]

Hit his computer with a hammer. Problem solved.

[Crittias]

Hit his computer with a hammer. Problem solved.Hit your roommate with a hammer. Problem eliminated.

[Entropy]

You can sniff on a switched network...it's more difficult than sniffing via a hub but it can be done. A switched network doesn't guarantee any level of security. That's a bit of a misnomer.

I'm OCD about stuff like this so I feel compelled to point it out ;)

[Bone]

Simultaneous dual band routers have two separate radio chipsets to deal with each band at the same time. That's why they're more expensive than routers than are simply selectable band.

Highly, highly recommend the Cisco E3000. Newegg routinely has them for $60-70 new, and even cheaper refurbed. Simul dual band. Best range I've seen on any consumer router, by far. I can get usable signal with my Touchpad a solid 250-300 feet outside a building I hadn't been able to make other off the shelf gear reach more than about 30 feet.

They run DD-WRT beautifully and even the out of the box firmware isn't half bad (and I'm pretty notoriously picky about networking gear). It'd be a great router even if it were single band.

EDIT:

In fact, Newegg's running a special on them again right now:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16833124388&cm_sp=Spotlight-_-33-124-388-_-01262012Based entirely on your recommendation, I ordered one of these at the special price. I've heard lots and lots of good things about them... however the common complaint seems to be that they run hot and therefore, die early. Any of yours have this problem? Remember I live in Texas and if a device is prone to heat death, I usually experience it.

[J Arcane]

I posted about this in the despise thread but I figured this was a better thread for actual tech advice, so I'm double posting it here:

My router seems to be failing.

It's gone down on my half a dozen times today, and as far as I can tell from the logs, it's because it keeps randomly rejecting my wifi security. I've got access logs from my MAC address saying WLAN access was rejected for incorrect security.

The password's fine, because it'll work just fine a few moments or minutes later when it finally reconnects.

The logs are also reporting multiple DoS attacks yesterday while I was gone.

I don't know what in hell is going on, but I lost internet like 4 times in a row a few minutes ago, and I'm getting pissed. I also have like a week to return it, so if it has failed, I need to figure it out and get it back before then.

[LiquidRain]

tl;dr provided at bottom.

So two new SSDs hit the market this week, one is Intel's new flagship, based on the same SandForce 2 chips in the Vertex 3/Force 3/Chronos/whatever line everyone else has. The difference is Intel actually did some quality assurance on the SF2 chips and got them stable - if you haven't gotten BSODs with your SandForce 2-based SSDs yet, you're one of the lucky ones. (go check your firmware versions!) The fixed firmware is exclusive or maybe even developed by Intel, nobody really knows, but it's stuck with the Intel 520 series for now. And Intel will make you pay a goddamned huge premium for it.

If you folks don't follow SSD news, there's been a major rash of SSD stability issues with all the SSDs that came out. The only SSD controller brands that remained standing without incident were Samsung and Marvell. SandForce 2 suffered the absolute most - tons of people with laptops and (to a lesser extent) those with desktops suffered a SF2 bug related to power states. Intel's was a minor edge case regarding partitions nuking a drive and rendering it 8 bytes in size, if I remember correctly, and Micron (aka Crucial) had some BSOD bugs themselves.

The SF2 bug was a huge deal because almost everyone uses SF2. Corsair Force 3, OCZ Vertex/Agility 3, Mushkin Chronos, Patriot Wildfire, you name an SSD company they have a SandForce drive because SF delivers a hell of a lot of performance.

Problem is their QA is a bit crap!

I was discussing the new SSDs with a, uh.. someone I know who works at hard drive manufacturer who has a hand in the firmware side of the business. He says he's seen SandForce evaluated under the super-strict HDD compatibility testing they have to do. (how many BSODs related to a buggy HDD controller do you hear about? okay besides some of the Seagate 'cude 7200.11 drives) To him it was like seeing the inside of a hotdog factory - you never really want one again. Based on what he's seen, he recommends Samsung drives. (which makes sense - they, too, make HDDs that must be ultra-compatible and reliable)

tl;dr

Check your SSD for firmware updates. ESPECIALLY if you have a SandForce drive.

The new Samsung 830 SSD series came out last week and it's got by far the best price/performance/reliability you can get in an SSD. Highly recommended on all fronts. Take a look at Tech Report's take. (http://techreport.com/articles.x/22415/12)

Here's the winning image from Tech Report:

http://i.imgur.com/qVVWp.gif

[bryan]

Can I just buy a SSD and connect it up to my mobo? Anything else I need to do.

[Handmade.Mercury]

Although I have never owned an SSD, I was under the impression that you just connect them like you would any other HDD, and update firmware as necessary.

[Entropy]

Can I just buy a SSD and connect it up to my mobo? Anything else I need to do.

Should be as simple as that from a physical point of view. You probably will have to tell Windows what file-system you want to use and it will format it.

[Suave Peanut]

It's just like connecting a new HDD.

[LiquidRain]

Yeah, it's just like a HDD. My post was more a warning, and some advice, that if there's one SSD you should buy it should be a Samsung 830-series SSD.

[Handmade.Mercury]

After reading your warnings and stuff about SandForce 2 based drives, I've got a couple of questions.

I was trying to do further research on this, and most articles about SSD issues and BSODs date back to October 2011. Is this the same problem you're talking about, or is there a new problem now?

Also, if the drive manufacturers have issued firmware updates that address the problem, should we still consider the Samsung drives over other ones? For example, Corsair released a 1.3.3 firmware update for their Force 3 and Force GT drives, apparently addressing the BSOD issues. Does that mean these drives are now fixed, and will be as stable as the Samsung drives? Or is Samsung still the preferred choice for some reason?

[LiquidRain]

Most of the problems were in Oct 2011 with SandForce drives, but according to Anandtech (http://www.anandtech.com/show/5508/intel-ssd-520-review-cherryville-brings-reliability-to-sandforce):

As luck would have it, our own Brian Klug happened to come across an unexpected crash with his 240GB non-Intel SF-2281 based SSD two weeks ago when he migrated it to another machine. The crash was an F4 BSOD, similar in nature to the infamous BSOD issue from last year. While two of the systems we reproduced the BSOD bug on were cured by last year's firmware update, Brian's system (an X58/Core i7 build) was BSODing regularly playing Battlefield 3. Games end up being a great way to trigger the SF-2281 BSOD issue as they frequently switch between periods of idle and load, which does a good job of stressing the power state logic in SandForce's firmware. I immediately sent Brian an Intel SSD 520 to see if the BSOD remained on Intel's drive. Switching to Cherryville caused Brian's BSODs to go away. Indeed most end user reports of SF-2281 BSODs went away with the fixed firmware, but we've still heard of isolated issues that remain unresolved. Whatever Intel has done with the 520's firmware seems to have fixed problems that still remain in the general SF-2281 firmware.
(emphasis mine)

It's also based on anecdotal/hearsay evidence from somebody I know in the HDD industry who called the SandForce controllers a "piece of shit" when it comes to reliability/stability after seeing the controllers run through the same vigorous QA a HDD goes through. I trust this man's opinion. Samsung drives are no issue, according to him, which is why Samsung is a pretty big OEM for SSDs in (for example) Apple products. Samsung uses the QA process their HDDs go through to validate their SSDs, presumably, which gives them the advantage here. All the issues that he saw with SandForce are why we're only now seeing an Intel product based on it - it took time for Intel to work through them.

There's also the price/performance - take a look again at the price/performance chart I posted above. The only SSD that gets close to the price/performance is the Corsair GT and the Corsair Force 3. At 120GB it gets a little hairier on price/performance - the Samsung winds up being pricier, especially since you won't get it on the same deep discounts that you will on drives from the (s)crappier companies like Mushkin and ADATA.

[Handmade.Mercury]

Most of the problems were in Oct 2011 with SandForce drives, but according to Anandtech (http://www.anandtech.com/show/5508/intel-ssd-520-review-cherryville-brings-reliability-to-sandforce):


(emphasis mine)

It's also based on anecdotal/hearsay evidence from somebody I know in the HDD industry who called the SandForce controllers a "piece of shit" when it comes to reliability/stability after seeing the controllers run through the same vigorous QA a HDD goes through. I trust this man's opinion. Samsung drives are no issue, according to him, which is why Samsung is a pretty big OEM for SSDs in (for example) Apple products. Samsung uses the QA process their HDDs go through to validate their SSDs, presumably, which gives them the advantage here. All the issues that he saw with SandForce are why we're only now seeing an Intel product based on it - it took time for Intel to work through them.

There's also the price/performance - take a look again at the price/performance chart I posted above. The only SSD that gets close to the price/performance is the Corsair GT and the Corsair Force 3. At 120GB it gets a little hairier on price/performance - the Samsung winds up being pricier, especially since you won't get it on the same deep discounts that you will on drives from the (s)crappier companies like Mushkin and ADATA.

Yeah, the reason I'm asking is because I was looking at 120/128GB SSDs, and the 120GB Corsair Force GT is like $30 cheaper than the 128GB Samsung 830, and I was wondering if there was any possibility of instability with the Corsair.

[Suave Peanut]

That Corsair Force GT is the same that I have and I report no problems so far.

[LiquidRain]

Honestly chances of you hitting any issues are slim/nothing if you're on a desktop. The risk becomes bigger when you move to a laptop, or if you start enabling more aggressive power management on your desktop.

[Handmade.Mercury]

Ok, I may spring for the Force GT, then, since I'm on a desktop with whatever the default power management options are.

[Banacek]

I'm hoping the prices of the AMD cards start going down soon...

[bryan]

Thanks guys for the info! :)

[PathMaster]

Techspot (http://www.techspot.com/guides/494-hard-drive-pricewatch-thai-floods/)has an article up on HDD price increase since the Thai flooding...

Ouch..some staggering price differences in there.

[Karak]

Techspot (http://www.techspot.com/guides/494-hard-drive-pricewatch-thai-floods/)has an article up on HDD price increase since the Thai flooding...

Ouch..some staggering price differences in there.

What is amazingly strange is the last 2 weeks the deals and steals emails I get from various websites about deals have barebones computers with HDD's that are almost the same price as a single HDD if separate. I am only assuming its because they have already packaged up the HDD inside the package. But for the price of a large HDD + just a bit you can get memory, a motherboard, onboard video, a case and power supply for a small replacement desktop or a home theater setup. Though I don't like the PSU's in most of those systems. Still. Strange pricing there.

[Handmade.Mercury]

I'm a bad person for ordering a SSD when I literally have no money.

[Suave Peanut]

Hooray American consumerism!

[Handmade.Mercury]

Yeah, I now have over $500 on my credit card.

I didn't do it without some thought, though. I figured I'd just end up buying it eventually anyway, and I'll make enough by my payment due date to avoid any interest and pay all bills.

[Mot Wakorb]

Figured I'd post my upgrade that I just did:

Things that didn't change:
Case: Antec 902
PSU: Antec 650W
Video: AMD Radeon 5870
HDD2: 1TB WD Black
HDD3: 1TB WD Green
Optical Drives: BD-R, BD-ROM

What did change:

ASUS P8Z68 Deluxe/GEN3 (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813131791)
16 GB Corsair DDR3 RAM (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820233198)
Intel 320 Series 120GB SSD (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820167050)
Intel Core i7-2700k 3.5GHz Quad-Core CPU (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819115095)

The motherboard's flexibility is utterly shocking. I ran out of USB ports easily, so the 10 ports included and the extra two front-panel USB 3.0 are fantastic. I'll be looking to overclock eventually, just not there yet. Fun stuff!

[Entropy]

So my HTPC has possibly the noisiest HD I've ever encountered...now seems like a good time to go SSD.

So I've got my eye on the new Intel 520 60GB.

Before I pull the trigger does anyone have any reasons I shouldn't?

[LiquidRain]

Wow the 60GB market doesn't offer much value difference. I was going to say "you don't need the speed of an Intel 520 at 60GB" but Intel 320s aren't convincingly cheaper, and you may want something larger than the 40GB 320 which is $92.

If you're not putting the HTPC to sleep or hibernate at any time, you may consider a Corsair Force 3. It'll save you $30, it's sitting at $100 on Newegg. If you still use power states like sleep and hibernate, the Force 3 should be OK, but SandForce drives are historically sketchy in this department.

A solid mid-ground choice (and the best reliability track record for SSDs) is the Samsung 64GB (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820147133), straddling the middle price range and offers pretty much the same performance as the 520.

edit: Actually the Crucial M4 (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820148441) is a very respectable drive! I wasn't looking at 64GB drives, only 60GB ones, so I missed it before. Just make sure to flash the latest firmware before you use it or you may run into a specific issue in a couple months. (firmware bug stops it from working after 5200 hours of being on)

if I were doing this to my own HTPC I'd just use the Crucial. A HTPC isn't a critical system where I value my data, it's where my parts go to die. If you're uncomfortable with that, I'd go with the Samsung. I'd pick SandForce 3rd (cheaper option) and Intel last (too expensive).

In a laptop I'd only use Samsung or Intel 320/520 drives.

[Slack3r78]

The M4s have a bug where they go down after around 5200 hours uptime. It's supposed to be fixed now, but I found out because I had one as a server boot drive...

[LiquidRain]

They fixed it over a month ago, and yeah, if you got bit by it, it's a terrible bug. As I've mentioned before, the only performance SSD maker to have zero firmware bugs has been Samsung.

- Indilinx had BSOD and "drives craps itself" and "drive stops recognizing" bugs throughout the Vertex 1 days. (and has since fallen into mid/low range performance, even before being bought out by OCZ) They also had issues upgrading firmware, some drives simply wouldn't upgrade or some would get their data wiped in the process.
- Intel drives had a firmware bug where certain partition configurations resulted in the drive thinking it was 8 bytes large. (they issued a voluntary recall and pulled the product from shelves until it was fixed)
- SandForce has had numerous issues related to power management (could be why they don't support SATA Link Power Management, which takes up to 1.5W off drive idle power (huge issue for laptops)) and other random BSODs.
- Crucial/Micron had the 5200 hour bug. (no recall as far as I know)

Random anecdotal reports abound about every single SSD maker, much like HDD makers. I don't have the graphs and I don't feel like looking em up, but from what I read on tech news sites, the 2 largest culprits of problems per SSD sold are OCZ and SandForce. The failure/bug rates are highest. Feel free to interpret that as opinion or anecdotal if you don't trust me - go do the research yourself and if I'm wrong, please let me know. :)

One of the reasons we haven't seen any or many SSDs from the large HDD manufacturers is precisely because of problems like these - SSD firmwares are still in their infancy and it's difficult to get them to pass the battery of tests HDDs go through. Samsung is the only one to keep putting out high performance SSDs, and WD put out a real stinker of a slow SSD a long while ago that's not even worth mentioning. (Samsung has a laptop line and makes the flash memory themselves, so the vertical integration makes sense - they don't need 3rd party components. They also make HDDs (damn good ones too!), which means they have the facilities to test their SSDs for compatibility and reliability.)

To have a short close-out: the two manufacturers I would trust most are Intel and Samsung. They also happen to be more expensive than the others. I think you'd get what you pay for. In a cheap home server or HTPC, though, where data integrity isn't as critical and you're looking at very small SSDs? (40/60GB) I'd go with a cheap option to save the cash. For larger, more expensive SSDs, I've advised folks here (in the last few pages) that for a desktop machine, a SandForce drive should be OK. Though, as I said in a post above, in a laptop I'd only put Intel or Samsung for their power management support and reliability.

Unrelated, I'll need to update the first post for the new 7700 series Radeons... though a quick read of reviews suggests that I won't really have to change my recommendations that much. :) Surprised we didn't get the 7800s.

[Slack3r78]

Yeah. I brought it up mostly because I've heard scattered reports that the firmware update didn't fully resolve the issue for some people.

[AntonThaGreat]

The M4s have a bug where they go down after around 5200 hours uptime. It's supposed to be fixed now, but I found out because I had one as a server boot drive...

I have a file server that has two 256GB Crucial M4's in raid 1, and the server simply stopped responding after an hour. I've gotten these sometime last year. I went to RMA the drives, Crucial told me to try the firmware update first. Lo and behold, problem solved.

Other than that, the drives have been butter. I have them in all of the workstations, the server, and my home PC, no other issues.

[Doogie2K]

Huh. Just looked on NCIX and Memory Express, and neither of them have Samsung SSDs. Is it normal for there to be a delay on Canadian sites getting new kit?

Also, in looking on Newegg, I found two identical 128s, save for one letter in the model ID (D vs. N (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Productcompare.aspx?Submit=ENE&N=100008120%2050001077%20600038519&IsNodeId=1&bop=And&CompareItemList=636%7C20-147-134%5E20-147-134-TS%2C20-147-137%5E20-147-137-TS)). Is there any meaningful difference between the two?

[LiquidRain]

Yeah I don't know why we haven't seen it up here yet. :(

As for the difference - read the titles. Desktop vs laptop/notebook. (hence D and N) The desktop installation kit likely contains a bracket to adapt it to a 3.5" slot. The laptop installation kit probably contains small plastic strips to bring it up to 9mm in height, the standard laptop drive size. (the Samsung drive is slightly smaller - 7mm if I remember correctly)

At 128GB the Samsung is hard to justify at its cost - the 240GB drive has a much better $/GB value but it's also much more expensive, and unless you're putting it in a laptop you likely don't need 240GB. At 128GB other options start becoming cheap enough to consider over Samsung's track record.

As much as I crow on about the reliability, a drive being 25-30% cheaper to buy for the same performance is hard to ignore.

(again, for a desktop)

I'm in the process of updating the original post with specific product recommendations. The market's shaken down to the point where there's pretty much a standard set of products people wind up buying.

[Doogie2K]

Oh, Jesus, how did I miss that. Sorry.

I'm not going to be buying right now, anyway - I'm saving for the iPad 3 right now - but I want to keep on top of things, because I can see myself buying in maybe four or six months. Hopefully by then prices will have calmed down a bit.

[LiquidRain]

Prices aren't expected to drop on SSDs for the entire year. The ongoing shortage of HDDs, the rising shipments of ultra-thin notebooks (which use SSDs exclusively), and no new manufacturing enhancements this year means demand, manufacturing capability, and cost of manufacturing are all conspiring against falling prices. :)

I've updated the first post of the guide. Please review it folks, I've changed practically all of it. :)

[PathMaster]

Looking at Newegg, if you are willing to trade some HDD space, SSDs are nearly a match price wise. Not worth shoving one into my older laptop, but getting close, for now.

[Handmade.Mercury]

Just started reading the new guide. You linked RAM that's rated at 1.65 volts. Isn't 1.5 volts recommended for Sandy Bridge?

[LiquidRain]

Just started reading the new guide. You linked RAM that's rated at 1.65 volts. Isn't 1.5 volts recommended for Sandy Bridge?
The 4x2GB kit of the same RAM is on ASUS's Qualified Vendor List for the Z68 board I linked, and is rated at 1.65V. The RAM I linked I've seen on other QVLs for other motherboards. (the only 8GB Corsair kit on the QVL for the ASUS board I linked is a Dominator kit at $85, which is too much)

I run that same Corsair kit I linked on my own ASUS mobo. I doubt it'd be an issue. Taking a look at the entire QVL I'm seeing voltages from 1.3 to 1.8V.

[Doogie2K]

Prices aren't expected to drop on SSDs for the entire year. The ongoing shortage of HDDs, the rising shipments of ultra-thin notebooks (which use SSDs exclusively), and no new manufacturing enhancements this year means demand, manufacturing capability, and cost of manufacturing are all conspiring against falling prices. :)

Phooey. Well, I may eat the cost anyway. I'm tired of Mom's Sandy Bridge i3 booting faster than my last-gen rig. ;)

I've updated the first post of the guide. Please review it folks, I've changed practically all of it. :)

Yay! Evening reading material.

[Shadowstorm]

Just for those who are not aware, you can get $15 off of the very recently released Samsung 830 series MZ-7PC 128 GB SSD (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820147134) at Newegg. The promo code is EMCNHJN24 (expires today).

Anandtech has a very thorough article on it here (http://www.anandtech.com/show/4863/the-samsung-ssd-830-review).

[LiquidRain]

The first 2 posts of the guide are now updated - from CPUs down to sound cards. I hope I've made the guide a lot clearer to follow and a lot easier to read. I'll probably continue to remove more text out of the guide later so it's less intimidating.

[PathMaster]

Like the changes...all of them even....ahem..

[roboninja]

Awesome work as always, Liquid.

[PathMaster]

I did not know the Sonar cards had dropped in price. That is very cool.

[evilgoodwin]

Just re-read the updated posts. Really good stuff, LiquidRain. You ever think about doing an HTPC thread?

Or do we already have one that I don't know about?

Picked up a 120 Intel 520 SSD and a 3TB to update my old 2TB to.

Now I get to sit and wait while the 2TB transfers to the 3TB, so I can transfer the 1TB to the 2TB, so I can transfer the 500GB OS drive to the 1TB, so I can format the 500GB and move it to the computer in the living room where I will then install Windows on it AND the SSD (because I thought about just cloning the current OS drive to the SSD, but am probably overdue on a fresh windows install anyway).

So yeah. I'm in file-transfer hell right now. Apparently, when SATA says "transfer of 3/6 GB/s" it means "gigaBITS," not "gigaBYTES."

6 hours left on the 2TB -> 3TB transfer...

[Mot Wakorb]

So yeah. I'm in file-transfer hell right now. Apparently, when SATA says "transfer of 3/6 GB/s" it means "gigaBITS," not "gigaBYTES."

You are correct - I love getting my students with this one (I teach a hardware class at the tech college) due to the fact that it's not meant to be misleading, it's just how bandwidth is calculated. Not only that, but with spindles, you're not going to see 3-6 Gb/sec often. Not that you need a math lesson but:

3Gb/sec * 1024 = 3072/8 (# bits in a byte) = 384MB/sec theoretical.

Takes me back to Nintendo/Sega advertising 16Mb cartridges, then it was just downright inflation :-D

[Handmade.Mercury]

So yeah. I'm in file-transfer hell right now. Apparently, when SATA says "transfer of 3/6 GB/s" it means "gigaBITS," not "gigaBYTES."

Yep! That's why the speed is typically written with a lowercase "b" ;)

[Stmfuller]

You are correct - I love getting my students with this one (I teach a hardware class at the tech college) due to the fact that it's not meant to be misleading, it's just how bandwidth is calculated. Not only that, but with spindles, you're not going to see 3-6 Gb/sec often. Not that you need a math lesson but:

3Gb/sec * 1024 = 3072/8 (# bits in a byte) = 384MB/sec theoretical.

Takes me back to Nintendo/Sega advertising 16Mb cartridges, then it was just downright inflation :-D

Shut up, Blast Processing was real.

[Entropy]

So I ended up going with the Intel 520 60GB. I'm pretty excited...this is my first SSD. I'm looking forward to seeing how it changes the behavior of the system.

[Mot Wakorb]

Shut up, Blast Processing was real.

Pffft. Blast Processing. Whatever. Super Nintendo was so much better.

(Alright, done being off-topic.)

[evilgoodwin]

You are correct - I love getting my students with this one (I teach a hardware class at the tech college) due to the fact that it's not meant to be misleading, it's just how bandwidth is calculated. Not only that, but with spindles, you're not going to see 3-6 Gb/sec often. Not that you need a math lesson but:

3Gb/sec * 1024 = 3072/8 (# bits in a byte) = 384MB/sec theoretical.

Takes me back to Nintendo/Sega advertising 16Mb cartridges, then it was just downright inflation :-D

Yep! That's why the speed is typically written with a lowercase "b" ;)

It's still bullshit :P

2TB->3TB is done!

Now begins 1TB->2TB.

[LiquidRain]

HTPC threads are super-thorny areas; quite often it's in your best interest to simply pick up an AMD Fusion E-series dual core Z-box or what have you. They won't do huge storage but they're far cheaper than trying to build your own small box. (for huge storage just buy an external box or two)

[bryan]

Liquid what's the thoughts on putting OS, apps and GAMES on the same SSD? Thinking of going for a 256 SSD.

[LiquidRain]

Liquid what's the thoughts on putting OS, apps and GAMES on the same SSD? Thinking of going for a 256 SSD.
If you got the money, do it, nothing wrong with it. My advice regarding gaming on SSD is that the performance boost isn't always worth the money - the performance difference is ridiculous (5-10x) for the system and apps, but for games you get about a 20-30% performance difference. Folks say it makes a big difference for World of Warcraft in particular (reduced stuttering) so it may help some games out. On a normal game though, you're basically just reducing load times from 40s a level to 25s a level. Noticeable but not a massive difference.

[bryan]

Thanks! Ideally I'd go for a smaller SSD drive for OS/Apps but I already have three drives in my PC. I'm actually gonna have to order in from the States as for some reason Samsung are not selling the 830 in this part of the world.

[LiquidRain]

Don't forget to factor shipping/customs into the cost before you do! (though if TechReport's analysis is correct, it's still difficult to beat the 830 240GB's price/performance)

[bryan]

To be honest after hearing all the horror reports of other drives, I just want peace of mind. I used to enjoy dicking around with my PC but I've come to an age where I just want it to work with minimal fuss.

[LiquidRain]

Yep, that's why I recommend the Samsung at the 240GB size, esp. considering the price it's at for the performance you get. I hope Samsung doesn't make me eat my words on reliability.

[Entropy]

Another issue with gaming on an SSD is how Steam installs itself. I currently have around 700gigs worth of Steam games. Steam by default doesn't allow you to distribute the individual installation of games across multiple drives. There are tricks using things like Directory Junctions but people have reported issues with doing this.

So my plan for my HTPC is to use a 60gig SSD for the OS and apps and a 2 TB HD for Steam and my games. There's no way I'm gonna buy a 500gig SSD for Steam. That would be insanely expensive.

[bryan]

My plan for Steam is to backup to DVD. I rarely play more than 3-4 games at a time.

[Entropy]

That's certainly a valid solution.

For me I like to have my complete library installed because I'm the type of gamer that will just want to fire up 2 or 3 games to sort of "reminisce" about the gameplay. Plus I use various games to demo my HT to people.

Plus once you've downloaded Rage and it's 20 gigs worth of content you don't want to sit through that ever again.

[Tayaya]

Wow... I didn't know this guide was here. I actually ordered a bunch of parts today to build my own machine, and it looks like I picked most of what this guide recommends - 2500K CPU, XFX 6870 graphics card, 8GB of DDR3 PC-1600 Memory, and a Seasonic 560W 80 Plus Gold PSU. For the case I went with the Corsair Carbide 400R because its 1) not too flashy and 2) comes with 3 fans already installed.

I was hoping to keep my build at about $800, but since I needed to buy a hard drive, optical drive, and a new copy of Windows 7 Home Premium (I don't have any licenses that aren't already being consumed), it tipped the scales with shipping at $1020. Basically I used my tax check to fund the build... I should have saved some of it but it's the first year in the last 4 that I haven't had to sink it into buying parts to maintain the Evo, so I wanted to spoil myself.

I'm looking forward to doing the build, but at the same time I'm REALLY nervous. I haven't worked inside a PC case in about 5 years, and even then I've never built a PC from scratch. I've done builds from barebones kits though where the power supply and mobo are already mounted in the chassis.... I can't imagine this being much harder. Once I get beyond my nervousness I'm sure I'll have a lot of fun with this project.

[Bone]

It's easy. Don't force anything, avoid static, think the whole build through first so you know how it's all going to fit.

[Handmade.Mercury]

Plan your cables.

So I opened up my case this morning to do some cable management, and also decided to remount my HSF. Before leaving for class, I started up a Prime95 stress test, and my 2500k went up to 4.4 GHz as expected. I came home from class, however, and it was only at 4.2 GHz, sometimes increased a few hundred MHz. What's the deal?

[evilgoodwin]

Wow... I didn't know this guide was here. I actually ordered a bunch of parts today to build my own machine, and it looks like I picked most of what this guide recommends - 2500K CPU, XFX 6870 graphics card, 8GB of DDR3 PC-1600 Memory, and a Seasonic 560W 80 Plus Gold PSU. For the case I went with the Corsair Carbide 400R because its 1) not too flashy and 2) comes with 3 fans already installed.

I was hoping to keep my build at about $800, but since I needed to buy a hard drive, optical drive, and a new copy of Windows 7 Home Premium (I don't have any licenses that aren't already being consumed), it tipped the scales with shipping at $1020. Basically I used my tax check to fund the build... I should have saved some of it but it's the first year in the last 4 that I haven't had to sink it into buying parts to maintain the Evo, so I wanted to spoil myself.

I'm looking forward to doing the build, but at the same time I'm REALLY nervous. I haven't worked inside a PC case in about 5 years, and even then I've never built a PC from scratch. I've done builds from barebones kits though where the power supply and mobo are already mounted in the chassis.... I can't imagine this being much harder. Once I get beyond my nervousness I'm sure I'll have a lot of fun with this project.

Do NOT forget the cooling gel or whatever it is that goes between the processor and cooling fan. DO NOT FORGET THIS!!

But for the most part, it's fine. I had to replace the motherboard on my old computer around November, and it'd been years since I'd done it. Since then, I've built another computer AND rebuilt the old one in another case. You'll be fine.

[Tayaya]

Do NOT forget the cooling gel or whatever it is that goes between the processor and cooling fan. DO NOT FORGET THIS!!

But for the most part, it's fine. I had to replace the motherboard on my old computer around November, and it'd been years since I'd done it. Since then, I've built another computer AND rebuilt the old one in another case. You'll be fine.

LOL... like I said I've done installs before on barebones kits - this included mounting the chip. It's just been a LONG time, and ever since we stopped doing support for BFG Technologies, I've been strictly involved with networking, so the innards of a PC are not familiar territory like they were years ago.

I bought the retail box version of the 2500K, which does include a cooler and probably some "good enough since I'm not overclocking" thermal grease. If it doesn't have the grease, I'll pick up some Antec Silver over at the TigerDirect warehouse behind my office.

[evilgoodwin]

LOL... like I said I've done installs before on barebones kits - this included mounting the chip. It's just been a LONG time, and ever since we stopped doing support for BFG Technologies, I've been strictly involved with networking, so the innards of a PC are not familiar territory like they were years ago.

I bought the retail box version of the 2500K, which does include a cooler and probably some "good enough since I'm not overclocking" thermal grease. If it doesn't have the grease, I'll pick up some Antec Silver over at the TigerDirect warehouse behind my office.

Ah, BFG tech. Lifetime warranties don't mean shit if the company doesn't last that long.

My graphics card just HAD to die a few months after they went under. So much rage that day...

[Stmfuller]

I'll pick up some Antec Silver over at the TigerDirect warehouse behind my office.
you've gotta be kidding me...nothing bad, just wow...

I bought some upgrades from work recently.
A Quad-Core AMD 3.7Ghz CPU, AMD 7970 Video card, and a 256GB SSD for the games.
I also bought a couple of new cases and did some recasing :)
my pc is about as fast as I can afford right now without switching motherboards/changing CPUs.

[Bone]

I wouldn't buy anything from TigerDirect, except maybe thermal paste. Just my experience.

[Tayaya]

I wouldn't buy anything from TigerDirect, except maybe thermal paste. Just my experience.

Me too - that's why I didn't get my parts there, despite the warehouse being within line of sight from my parking lot.

[Handmade.Mercury]

I've only bought from TigerDirect twice, but they've been good both times. Actually got my stuff to me early the first time I ordered.

[Tayaya]

Ah, BFG tech. Lifetime warranties don't mean shit if the company doesn't last that long.

My graphics card just HAD to die a few months after they went under. So much rage that day...

Heh. You don't have to tell me! I worked for 'em. I could tell a million stories, but yeah... probably not best to do so in a public forum.

[evilgoodwin]

Heh. You don't have to tell me! I worked for 'em. I could tell a million stories, but yeah... probably not best to do so in a public forum.

To be fair, it was a nice graphics card. I enjoyed their products and was surprised when they went under.

[Psykoboy2]

I've only bought from TigerDirect twice, but they've been good both times. Actually got my stuff to me early the first time I ordered.

That just means you're overdue.

[Stmfuller]

That just means you're overdue.

for another order?
probably.

[Tayaya]

for another order?
probably.

You're in Downers Grove? What the hell!? I didn't know I had another CoGer so close.

[Stmfuller]

You're in Downers Grove? What the hell!? I didn't know I had another CoGer so close.

check your PM>

[Tayaya]

My parts have shipped already! Tuesday can't get here soon enough! Good thing I have my Vita to hold me over.

[Karak]

I've only bought from TigerDirect twice, but they've been good both times. Actually got my stuff to me early the first time I ordered.

Holy balls ya that is not at all what I expected to read. This will be my 54th computer, or barebones kits and parts ordered from them. They are very literally our go to place for my own side business and for work now. Its insane how good they are.

Its like opposite land for me. Glad I haven't had a single bad interaction. Damn.

EDIT: Nope 56th order from them, just counting computers/barebones/combos. Forgot I got my parents bare bones system from them and my wifes sisters last month.

Then again I work at a place that seemingly only employees the mentally insane and those lacking all forms of common sense and we are freakishly successful.

Speaking of business. I get to supply a retirement home with 14 computers and have a contract for 3 years of extended service. I can not WAIT to see what those old horny dudes download onto the PC's hahahahaha...or maybe I can wait:(

[Karak]

That's certainly a valid solution.

For me I like to have my complete library installed because I'm the type of gamer that will just want to fire up 2 or 3 games to sort of "reminisce" about the gameplay. Plus I use various games to demo my HT to people.

Plus once you've downloaded Rage and it's 20 gigs worth of content you don't want to sit through that ever again.

Man I am exactly like you. I currently have 3 SSD's now and the size issue crops up all the fucking time and its usually Steam related. Arma 2 and its expansions, or Rage, or other large games with expansions and it doesn't take long at all to cause issues.
I am really happy with some bits of having an SSD but it wasn't the magic I was promised. I guess if I was booting 24/7 it would be cool but I rarely do or have to. So the only gains I get are loading of games/missions/levels and that is only noticeable at those specific times. I saw someone quote WOW as a big gainer. That kind of thing seems to make sense. I wonder if Knights of the Old Republic would see the same kind of benefits. I wish you could shove one of these in a 360.

For me the only day to day gain I have ever even noticed was loading Fruity Loops, Reaper, and other Audio programs and their assorted libraries. 16+ gigs in just one of many libraries and all of them small mp3 files is a bitch. But having moved it to an SSD its tolerable now for sure. That was worth the price of the SSD alone.

[PathMaster]

Speaking of business. I get to supply a retirement home with 14 computers and have a contract for 3 years of extended service. I can not WAIT to see what those old horny dudes download onto the PC's hahahahaha...or maybe I can wait:(

Net Nanny dood!

[Slack3r78]

God dammit. All the sweet 6850 sales would end after I have disposable income again.

[Reverant]

The micro-atx size of the z68 has me nervous. I'm not going to get too cramped when I add in my big cpu fan, will I?

[LiquidRain]

The micro-atx size of the z68 has me nervous. I'm not going to get too cramped when I add in my big cpu fan, will I?
Not at all. It's the same size as a normal ATX board, but without the last few PCI slots. Everything else is the same size. I have a honking huge heatsink on my mATX board.

[Shjinta]

Is there really any real reason for me to upgrade from my 2600k? A bunch of people are telling me It's worth upgrading. I'm sitting with a 2600k at the retail clock speed 16GB of DDR 3 and 3 580s in Tri-SLI mode. The PC runs everything I can even think of, and I rarely hear it even when playing Demanding games.

I know the Ivy Bridge boasts the Quad Channel Memory, but seriously, is it worth a new Mobo and CPU? I figured I'd ask here since I know Rain can answer it.

Thanks for the input.

[Mot Wakorb]

Is there really any real reason for me to upgrade from my 2600k? A bunch of people are telling me It's worth upgrading. I'm sitting with a 2600k at the retail clock speed 16GB of DDR 3 and 3 580s in Tri-SLI mode. The PC runs everything I can even think of, and I rarely hear it even when playing Demanding games.

I know the Ivy Bridge boasts the Quad Channel Memory, but seriously, is it worth a new Mobo and CPU? I figured I'd ask here since I know Rain can answer it.

Thanks for the input.

From everything I've read - no. Ivy Bridge is a minor incremental jump, not a major architecture change.

[LiquidRain]

I highly doubt that you'd need an upgrade when Ivy Bridge comes out, which honestly won't be for a while. Laptops will benefit the most from IVB with the improvements in the integrated graphics and die shrink - CPU performance won't get much of a bump clock-for-clock. That'll be Haswell architecture a year later.

[Handmade.Mercury]

Is there really any real reason for me to upgrade from my 2600k? A bunch of people are telling me It's worth upgrading. I'm sitting with a 2600k at the retail clock speed 16GB of DDR 3 and 3 580s in Tri-SLI mode. The PC runs everything I can even think of, and I rarely hear it even when playing Demanding games.

I know the Ivy Bridge boasts the Quad Channel Memory, but seriously, is it worth a new Mobo and CPU? I figured I'd ask here since I know Rain can answer it.

Thanks for the input.

I didn't think Ivy Bridge would need new motherboards. Just BIOS updates.

Ivy Bridge is the "tick" to Sandy Bridge's "tock", so it's really just a minor improvement, with the new architecture chips coming out with Haswell, like Liquid said.

[Stmfuller]

God dammit. All the sweet 6850 sales would end after I have disposable income again.

I have a leftover 6850 that I'm no longer using that I would part with for cheap. ($50)

[Shadowstorm]

Nice price there, stm.

[Purple Santa]

I have a leftover 6850 that I'm no longer using that I would part with for cheap. ($50)

Well if Slack3r78 doesn't want it, i'll take it.

[Slack3r78]

I have a leftover 6850 that I'm no longer using that I would part with for cheap. ($50)

gimme ur paypal emails and i give u money now k

[torrefaction]

He's a bad person and an alcoholic, you should let me buy it instead.

[Stmfuller]

gimme ur paypal emails and i give u money now k

PM sent.
If Slack3r78 backs out, I'll offer it posting order.
Not a big deal, and I'm happy to help the people of CoG.

[Shjinta]

Good..Good.. Excellent news then. So I guess any upgrades for me would lie in More Monitors. Maybe a bigger SSD.. Liquid, what is your opinion on the Corsair H series of coolers?

[Slack3r78]

Good..Good.. Excellent news then. So I guess any upgrades for me would lie in More Monitors. Maybe a bigger SSD.. Liquid, what is your opinion on the Corsair H series of coolers?

I wasn't overly impressed with the ones I've seen.

Then again, I was seeing them because they were broken, so that kind of tints my perspective.

[Handmade.Mercury]

Good..Good.. Excellent news then. So I guess any upgrades for me would lie in More Monitors. Maybe a bigger SSD.. Liquid, what is your opinion on the Corsair H series of coolers?

After looking into these a little bit myself, I'm led to believe that anything below the H80 is a waste of money, as the lower stuff is only marginally better than aftermarket air coolers.

[Shadowstorm]

Good..Good.. Excellent news then. So I guess any upgrades for me would lie in More Monitors. Maybe a bigger SSD.. Liquid, what is your opinion on the Corsair H series of coolers?

aid41kxxNdI

Seriously one of the best reviews I've read or watched on a computing product in a long time. After quite a bit of research supplemented by this review, I can say with certainty that you would enjoy this cooler if you're in the market for a high end non-watercooling based solution.

[LiquidRain]

Good..Good.. Excellent news then. So I guess any upgrades for me would lie in More Monitors. Maybe a bigger SSD.. Liquid, what is your opinion on the Corsair H series of coolers?
Going by advice from people who've seen a lot of the water-cooling type stuff in this thread and my own personal experience with a CoolIT solution - avoid. You get much quieter performance from even a medium-range air-cooler like the Scythe Mugen, and you don't need to worry about the anecdotally-high failure rates. :) If air cooling isn't cutting it for you, you are doing something wrong with your case selection, cooler, or fans. Or you're trying to hit 5GHz. One or the other.

[Shjinta]

Going by advice from people who've seen a lot of the water-cooling type stuff in this thread and my own personal experience with a CoolIT solution - avoid. You get much quieter performance from even a medium-range air-cooler like the Scythe Mugen, and you don't need to worry about the anecdotally-high failure rates. :) If air cooling isn't cutting it for you, you are doing something wrong with your case selection, cooler, or fans. Or you're trying to hit 5GHz. One or the other.

Ahh, I'm just always worried about the summer, My Case DF-85 from Antec is like a foot from my Air Duct lol. Every three weeks I take ye old compressor to the case and give it a good cleaning. I think it runs great. I was just wondering if I should upgrade from the Intel Stock cooling fan. That's about all I got. plus the stock fans that came with the case. Lately it's been humming playing rift.

[Tayaya]

Well I built my magical PC this evening as my workday came to a close (built it at the office due to the close proximity to stores that sell parts, and because being a tech support center we always have an army of nerds nearby of one of us other nerds can't figure something out.

For the first time in my PC-building career though, I got 'er to POST on the first attempt. I'm REALLY happy with the Corsair 400R case.. Everything was incredibly easy to install into the thing, and with both sides off routing cables was a breeze. I still need to go back and zip tie them together in bundles and tidy some things up here and there, but so far everything's cruising along nicely. I'm itching to play some games on it, but Steam and my Internet in General are going super slow on the new machine.

I still need to check with ASUS as the drivers that came with the mobo are mos-assuredly out of date! All told, though, nothing's crashed at all, and even though Anadtech says this case is among the loudest they've ever tested, it's definitely the quietest PC I've ever built (I'm about 5 feet from it and I can just barely hear a hum, but right now I have no audio on and the furnace isn't running in the house.... it's as quiet as can be). I was considering adding more fans depending on how hot it gets, but for now there are enough - 3 chassis fans (2 120s for intake and 1 140 for exhaust), the two on the gfx card, the 1 on the CPU cooler, and 2 in the power supply).... so far the box has been running icy cold, though I imagine when gaming that will change!

[Handmade.Mercury]

I feel like I'm some kind of anomaly or something, as my first build went swimmingly, and was pretty easy. Booted perfectly first try.

[LiquidRain]

Usually folks forget to plug something in, or the RAM wasn't seated correctly, or they got a lemon motherboard. About 3-5 years ago, they used to screw up the IDE setup, or the motherboard wasn't configured correctly.

There's also far less that can go wrong now compared to just 5 years ago. Motherboards are now consolidated to either Intel or AMD chips which increased RAM compatibility. (you used to have ATi, nVidia, Intel, Via and SiS and each would refuse seemingly random RAM) Mobos now also have everything you need (no add-on cards), and SATA is plug-and-play as opposed to the master/slave asshattery of IDE. (you used to have to make sure the master HDD was plugged into the last plug in the cable/ribbon, and made sure the HDDs had their hardware switches/jumpers set correctly )

Now? You basically just plug in the HDD to any SATA port, graphics card goes in, hook up the power and call it a day.

[Grifter]

Built my friend an i5 2500 this weekend and it gave me "the itch" so I'm selling my old Core 2 duo set up that I'm using as an HTPC to build myself a proper entertainment center sized HTPC. I was going to go with a Core i3 and micro ATX z68 but considering I won't be doing any gaming on it I'm thinking about just grabbing an AMD mobo and CPU and saving about $100. I won't be ordering anything until next week so things can change but as of now my part list is:

If I go AMD

Case:
SilverStone ML03B (Black) (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004GGUAUE/ref=ox_sc_act_title_4?ie=UTF8&m=ATVPDKIKX0DER)
Power Supply:
PC Power and Cooling Silencer MK III 400w (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817703034)
Motherboard:
ASUS F1A75-M LE (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813131769)
CPU:
AMD A4-3400 Llano 2.7GHz (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819103955)
Cheapo Video Card:
ASUS GT520 (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814121475)
RAM:
8GB G.SKILL Sniper Low Voltage Series (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820231461)
Boot Drive:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820148442]Crucial M4 2.5" 128GB SATA III MLC SSD
Internal Storage:
2TB Seagate Barracuda Green x2 (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822148681)
Cooling:
Enermax ETD-T60 T.B.SILENCE (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835214026)
Vantec Stealth 80mm Silent Case Fan x4 (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000234W0E/ref=ox_sc_act_title_3?ie=UTF8&m=ATVPDKIKX0DER)

I picked up this little guy (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817576009) last week to take care of my extra storage needs without having to worry about room in the case. I have 2 2TB drives that will be going in here initially and I'll grab another 2 2TB or 3TB drives once the prices come back down to a more acceptable level.

If I go Intel it's all the same except:

Motherboard:
ASUS P8Z68-M Pro (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813131786)
CPU:
Intel Core i3-2100 (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819115078)
Powersupply:
PC Power and Cooling Silencer MK III 500w (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817703035)

It's weird building a PC for myself without a proper video card in it and while I don't plan on using this system for games I may want to play some casual stuff in the living room so I've been eyeballing this (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814102958) even though I know I'd barely use it... I hate it when I have to use discipline.

[Tayaya]

Usually folks forget to plug something in, or the RAM wasn't seated correctly, or they got a lemon motherboard. About 3-5 years ago, they used to screw up the IDE setup, or the motherboard wasn't configured correctly.

There's also far less that can go wrong now compared to just 5 years ago. Motherboards are now consolidated to either Intel or AMD chips which increased RAM compatibility. (you used to have ATi, nVidia, Intel, Via and SiS and each would refuse seemingly random RAM) Mobos now also have everything you need (no add-on cards), and SATA is plug-and-play as opposed to the master/slave asshattery of IDE. (you used to have to make sure the master HDD was plugged into the last plug in the cable/ribbon, and made sure the HDDs had their hardware switches/jumpers set correctly )

Now? You basically just plug in the HDD to any SATA port, graphics card goes in, hook up the power and call it a day.

Ahhh now there's the stuff I remember dealing with in the good ol' days, when I used to work inside of computers all the time (but like I said a few posts back, had never built one totally from scratch). IDE jumpers, that pain in the ass SIS chipset (I used to have lots of chipset driver fun with those), and all the other little things that could go wrong.

Compared to that, this build was a snap! Things really have gotten a lot simpler. I was a little nervous about installing the CPU. The lever for the LGA 1155 socket takes a lot more pressure than I was used to (everything I've done before were all ZIF sockets)... nothing excessive but the quiet creak it made sent visions of bending pins all through my head.

[Bone]

Oh, back in the day when even certain hard drives weren't supported by a motherboard. Back then there really was something to the concept of a Magic PC. You had to stand on one foot waving a dead chicken and invoking dark Gods to make everything work.

[LiquidRain]

HTPC stuff.
Yeah that's still not reeeaallly HTPC-sized stuff though. :p For a real challenge why not try building something Mini-ITX? I was looking at replacing my HTPC earlier at some point, with something like this case (http://www.in-win.com.tw/products_pccase_series.php?cat_id=1&series_id=49) and a Pico PSU. There are other options in the Mini-ITX space, and you'll wind up with a teeny tiny little thing. (I would, unfortunately, avoid an AMD E-350 motherboard since those have trouble decoding video content on the CPU [which can happen if the GPU doesn't support what you're watching], and pay very careful attention to what fans a Mini-ITX case support: anything smaller than 80mm will surely result in unbearable noise)

Undoubtedly using a Silverstone case/etc gets you an easier build, though. :)

[Karak]

Fuck it. I bought the new Alienware X-51 yesterday.
Overpriced. YUP!
Could I have built something for less YUP
Am I excited. Yup yup! Fits on top of the 360 and after playing my clients for a little bit this weekend I was hooked.

[LiquidRain]

They had so much potential to do some really cool things with the X-51 in regards to cooling components, but passed on it in order to just use as many off-the-shelf products as possible and then stuck in medium-powered devices to make sure the thermals don't run away. :( Still, it's a neat thing.

[Karak]

They had so much potential to do some really cool things with the X-51 in regards to cooling components, but passed on it in order to just use as many off-the-shelf products as possible and then stuck in medium-powered devices to make sure the thermals don't run away. :( Still, it's a neat thing.

Ya I agree 100%. I don't consider it a knock out win, but for its freakishly small size and the huge modding community already showing what it can do I was sold. I can't believe what people are already getting in there and the upgrades/setups. I could have waited for R2 possibly but playing Skyrim on it sold me. I was going to put together another living room PC but frankly...I am getting burned out on it after putting so many other people's together. Gets tiring.

[Tayaya]

Karak, definitely keep me posted on how you like the X-51 after some time using it. Before I decided to build my own I was strongly considering the X-51. Ultimately pressure from my co-workers and a desire to get a little more bang for my buck (and upgradability) drove me to build a mid tower.

However, the GF is considering buying an X-51 for her son, but is open to the idea of me building something if I can keep it affordable (she's looking at the $699 version of the X-51). I think ultimately I'm going to lose out because the case and lights in the X-51 appeal to the little guy more than the actual guts of the machine, but I'm still weighing out options there.

[Karak]

Karak, definitely keep me posted on how you like the X-51 after some time using it. Before I decided to build my own I was strongly considering the X-51. Ultimately pressure from my co-workers and a desire to get a little more bang for my buck (and upgradability) drove me to build a mid tower.

However, the GF is considering buying an X-51 for her son, but is open to the idea of me building something if I can keep it affordable (she's looking at the $699 version of the X-51). I think ultimately I'm going to lose out because the case and lights in the X-51 appeal to the little guy more than the actual guts of the machine, but I'm still weighing out options there.

Will do for sure.

[Slack3r78]

Shiny 6850 came today! Sadly, the UPS dude showed up right as I was having to leave for work. Stupid work interfering with playing with new toys.

Thanks again stmfuller!

[Stmfuller]

good luck sir and enjoy.
The 6850 is really a decent card.

[Tayaya]

Did some gaming last night FINALLY! My graphics card came with a copy of Dirt 3 as a promotion. I've already played through the game on the 360 so I wasn't really pumped about it, but hey, free game right?

It was already a gorgeous looking game on the 360, but as a DX11 compatible game I was interested in how it would fare on the new PC. I think it did rather well... in 1920 x 1080 (1080p), 4x MSAA, vsync on, and all settings set as high as they would go, I got an average framerate in the benchmark of 61, and a minimum dip to 50. If I left some of the settings on "high" instead of "ultra", framerates held over 100. Played a bit of that, and played around on my buddy's SWTOR account to see if I like that game (and I do... as MMOs go it's very "not-MMO-like" and a lot of fun). Before I went to bed, i fired up Left 4 Dead 2, which while a bit dated tech wise is a game I've never been able to run fully cranked. My god, with everything at max and a bunch of AA on, that game still looks pretty damn stunning. Even on my MacBook Pro with a GeForce 9600 it looked way better than the console port, but on the new box the gap between the old PC and new PC is just as dramatic as the gap between the PC and console.

I am pleased with my build, and happy to see that after several hours of gaming on it, I had no overheats, crashes, or any other weirdness.

[Slack3r78]

good luck sir and enjoy.
The 6850 is really a decent card.

Given I'm upgrading from my old 512MB 9800GT, it's a huge step up. The 9800 had amazing longevity, but it was finally beginning to be stretched beyond its capability by new titles.

[Karak]

So got my wifes new PC together. For 309.00 we got a steal to be honest.

Antec midsize case
AMD quadcore 1045t got it to 3.5 overclocked with an ok aftermarket cooler-fan in push/pull
12 gigs Corsair ram,
OCZ ModXStream Pro 700W Modular High Performance PSU
60 gig SSD(not a great brand in fact never heard of it)
5850 TwinF 1 Gig

Would have LOVED to not go AMD for the main CPU once I had the coupons ready and found the deals I had to pull the trigger on it.

Gonna keep an eye on that SSD but daily backups to her hybrid drive should keep me solid if I start seeing issues. Nice very cheap gaming machine for her and...I didn't realize until I replaced it that this entire time she had been running an old Athlon...VERY old Athlon this entire time:)

She can finally play Sims 3 without bothering me:)

[Stmfuller]

that'a s pretty nice PC for the wifey there.
We talked about getting my wife a new PC late last year, but she really wants another apple notebook. so...

[Karak]

that'a s pretty nice PC for the wifey there.
We talked about getting my wife a new PC late last year, but she really wants another apple notebook. so...

Ya we got lucky in some sales. Still not excited about having an AMD proc again...or for that matter a 5850 but thems the breaks. It will keep her happy raising sims and watching them slowly die! Leaving me time to play Skyrim:)

[Handmade.Mercury]

What kind of SSD is it?

[diablopath]

So, I'm looking into making a modest upgrade to my graphics card. I'm not looking to spend a lot of money, just enough to improve my SC2 and Tribes: Ascend experience over these next few months.

This is my current card. GeForce GTS 250 (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814127445)
This is the card I'm contemplating upgrading to. Radeon HD 6770 (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814121474)

Opinions? I think everything else in my computer is okay. My CPU fan has been getting obnoxiously loud, I believe a little power surge might have damaged it, but everything else in the PC is fine. I don't know how plausible that sounds, but the obnoxious noises weren't present until a thunderstorm rolled through and I wasn't home to turn the PC off.

Like I said, my only two goals here are Tribes: Ascend and SC2. I might mix in a little Skyrim, but I'm not really aiming to play that to max on this system. Opinions?

[Stmfuller]

Ya we got lucky in some sales. Still not excited about having an AMD proc again...or for that matter a 5850 but thems the breaks. It will keep her happy raising sims and watching them slowly die! Leaving me time to play Skyrim:)

AMD hate?
:(
I only put AMD in my systems. don't know why, just have.

[evilgoodwin]

AMD hate?
:(
I only put AMD in my systems. don't know why, just have.

Foolish human. You're supposed to put Intel into your systems, like I always have for no reason! :D

[J Arcane]

I love AMD and ATI. All the AMD/ATI hardware I have ever owned somehow seems to hold its own for far longer than their Intel/Nvidia peers. Not sure what it is, it's just somehow I seem to squeeze a lot more life out of them.

[Chaos Machine]

I would wait till the summer to upgrade your vid card, nvidias next gen should be out which will put price pressure on amd. With the winner being the consumer. My next upgrade is probably going to be a 7950 or something in the $400 range from nvidias next gen. unless it doesnt drive x3 displays on a single card, in which case ill default to amd. I absolutely love gaming on an nvidia surround / eyefinity setup. Its a bit more work to set up and there are still games that dont support it, but playing skyrim at 5040x1050 was one of the most immersive game experiences ive ever had.

[diablopath]

I would wait till the summer to upgrade your vid card, nvidias next gen should be out which will put price pressure on amd. With the winner being the consumer. My next upgrade is probably going to be a 7950 or something in the $400 range from nvidias next gen. unless it doesnt drive x3 displays on a single card, in which case ill default to amd. I absolutely love gaming on an nvidia surround / eyefinity setup. Its a bit more work to set up and there are still games that dont support it, but playing skyrim at 5040x1050 was one of the most immersive game experiences ive ever had.

I'm not waiting until summer.

Is that a good card for now, or not? I just want to play SC2 and Tribes at higher settings.

[Stmfuller]

So, I'm looking into making a modest upgrade to my graphics card. I'm not looking to spend a lot of money, just enough to improve my SC2 and Tribes: Ascend experience over these next few months.

This is my current card. GeForce GTS 250 (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814127445)
This is the card I'm contemplating upgrading to. Radeon HD 6770 (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814121474)

Opinions? I think everything else in my computer is okay. My CPU fan has been getting obnoxiously loud, I believe a little power surge might have damaged it, but everything else in the PC is fine. I don't know how plausible that sounds, but the obnoxious noises weren't present until a thunderstorm rolled through and I wasn't home to turn the PC off.

Like I said, my only two goals here are Tribes: Ascend and SC2. I might mix in a little Skyrim, but I'm not really aiming to play that to max on this system. Opinions?

if you're going ATI, at least go 6850 or above. I don't think for your money, you're going to be all that happy.

[LiquidRain]

A Radeon 6770 is only about 10-15% better than a GTS 250. It is most definitely not worth your money. A Radeon 6850 would be a decent, but not fantastic, upgrade.

What's stopping you from playing what you have now with your GTS 250? It should be more than good enough for Tribes and especially SC2.

[Karak]

AMD hate?
:(
I only put AMD in my systems. don't know why, just have.

Not hate. They just currently aren't in a good market position right now for their proccs compared to the competition. I have had both and had good experience with both. But currently nothing comes close to some of the Intel chips.

As for their videocards. Their hardware is amazing. Software...uhm...ya.

But I think the less I say the better. I think Liquid wasn't happy the last time AMD/Nvidia or AMD Intel went back and forth. I can't remember it was awhile ago. And its his thread so that's my answer to your question. And I must like them enough to have both in my system. So if I HATE them...I hate my new computer system:)

[Karak]

I'm not waiting until summer.

Is that a good card for now, or not? I just want to play SC2 and Tribes at higher settings.

Are you running into some particular problem. That should be able to run those games.

[diablopath]

Yes, yes, it runs them. I'd just kind of like them at higher settings. I don't think I'm going to get the performance I want in the same price range I want, so I'll probably just suck it up and deal with my first world problem.

[LiquidRain]

Not hate. They just currently aren't in a good market position right now for their proccs compared to the competition. I have had both and had good experience with both. But currently nothing comes close to some of the Intel chips.

As for their videocards. Their hardware is amazing. Software...uhm...ya.

But I think the less I say the better. I think Liquid wasn't happy the last time AMD/Nvidia or AMD Intel went back and forth. I can't remember it was awhile ago. And its his thread so that's my answer to your question. And I must like them enough to have both in my system. So if I HATE them...I hate my new computer system:)
There are a lot of objective statements you could say about AMD/Intel and AMD/nVidia, but yeah seeing the fanboyism come out here is never pretty so I like to put a stop to it.

Here are some facts, though, about desktop CPUs:

- Intel beats AMD clock-for-clock and performance/watt so badly in CPU power I removed AMD CPUs from the guide completely.
- Intel has pushed Sandy Bridge so far down in price with the Sandy Bridge Pentium line that if you have a discrete video card it makes zero sense to even consider AMD. (the cheapest Sandy Bridge is faster, uses less power, and cheaper than the cheapest AMD)
- AMD wins on integrated graphics, which may make it a slightly better choice for some HTPC builds. (but that says nothing about gaming performance - integrated graphics are still barely useful, and I'd rather have Intel's better thermal management)

I used to build nothing but AMD systems right up until my current Sandy Bridge i5 computer. After the Phenom II, which only managed to catch up to Core 2 Quad right before Core i5/i7 came out, AMD has simply completely lost the performance/price battle. You simply can't get the performance of an Intel CPU from any available AMD CPU. The only reason to consider AMD CPUs are their better integrated graphics, which is only applicable for non-gaming machines, which is outside the scope of this thread. :)

Here are some facts about desktop graphics:

- AMD has better hardware, and has for the last 3 generations
- AMD had a damn good driver record for years until 2011 - for about 4-5 years they were doing pretty well
- AMD's drivers have been in a mess since they started working on their new graphics architecture, and every single fuckup of the past year can be attributed it to it. (a very important last year for PC gaming, which seems to have started making a comeback, very bad of AMD to do this now of all times)
- nVidia can match AMD on price/performance but loses heavily on heat, power, efficiency, and multi-monitor gaming
- nVidia experiences far less problems on game launches

My pure conjecture is that it will take at least another 4 months before the AMD driver situation cleans itself up. (see problems like there being no Win8 drivers for Radeon 7000 series cards - signs that the driver development is still heavily fractured)

Yes, yes, it runs them. I'd just kind of like them at higher settings. I don't think I'm going to get the performance I want in the same price range I want, so I'll probably just suck it up and deal with my first world problem.
Yup, I definitely think you're stuck with that.

[torrefaction]

Yeah, I have some serious issues with AMD's drivers, and their relative lack of QA lately. I'd say Liquid hit it spot on the head. While I certainly don't regret buying the X6, I wouldn't even consider AMD right now for a CPU, and it's going to be a while before I feel I can trust their drivers again. It's been SO many launches I've had problems.

[Stmfuller]

didn't mean to start an AMD/Intel turf war.

I'll admit the AMD graphics drivers thing is a bit of a problem. Probably why my crossfire experiment didn't go so well. But their cards are nice, and the 7970 core i bought recently seems to be functioning well and stays pretty cool. (lack of windows 8 drivers not withstanding)

As for the CPUs, AMD seems to be hitting up "slower" CPUs right now (sub 3ghz/core processors) which is annoying for a gamer. I'm running a X4 3.7Ghz which seems to handle everything I can throw at it.

I don't think either side is a particularly bad choice. Especially since it's also true that a lot of games are now better suited to run on older hardware than ever before. Games don't seem to push the limits of PCs like they used to.

[LiquidRain]

didn't mean to start an AMD/Intel turf war.

I'll admit the AMD graphics drivers thing is a bit of a problem. Probably why my crossfire experiment didn't go so well. But their cards are nice, and the 7970 core i bought recently seems to be functioning well and stays pretty cool. (lack of windows 8 drivers not withstanding)

As for the CPUs, AMD seems to be hitting up "slower" CPUs right now (sub 3ghz/core processors) which is annoying for a gamer. I'm running a X4 3.7Ghz which seems to handle everything I can throw at it.

I don't think either side is a particularly bad choice. Especially since it's also true that a lot of games are now better suited to run on older hardware than ever before. Games don't seem to push the limits of PCs like they used to.
No turf wars here, just thought I'd clarify my own positions before any turf war started. :)

As for the AMD CPU performance, high-end AMDs are definitely good enough, the problem is for the same price the Intels simply outclass them. And once you go past AMD's most expensive, the Intels keep getting better and better and better in every respect. There's simply more headroom in there. Intel has badly out-engineered AMD. I'd love for AMD to make a comeback but it doesn't seem like it's going to happen. :(

I do hope, though, that AMD keeps excelling in the low-end "nettop" environments. The AMD E-series netbooks et al are superb chipsets, easily beating out Intel's Atom series.

edit:

The new 7800 series has launched, and it keeps the same value/performance of the 6900 series. Not a huge win for us consumers (at least, not until nVidia catches up) but the cards are very competitive. If you have a GeForce 560 or Radeon 6800/6900 series, though, don't bother upgrading. It's not a huge leap.

[Slack3r78]

I'm in an odd place CPU wise. Running an ancient Phenom X4 9750, and I'm pretty clearly bottlenecking at the CPU.

I could just drop like an X4 980 in for around $150, but I'm on an AM2 board with slow 667 DDR2, so I'd be worried about bottlenecking at RAM instead. If I were to spend the extra $150-200 on a new board and memory, I might as well go all-in and pick a more current CPU. Blargh. DECISIONS.

[Stmfuller]

I'm in an odd place CPU wise. Running an ancient Phenom X4 9750, and I'm pretty clearly bottlenecking at the CPU.

I could just drop like an X4 980 in for around $150, but I'm on an AM2 board with slow 667 DDR2, so I'd be worried about bottlenecking at RAM instead. If I were to spend the extra $150-200 on a new board and memory, I might as well go all-in and pick a more current CPU. Blargh. DECISIONS.

my HTPC is running a AM3 965 on a AM2/AM3 board with DDR2 and you'd be right to worry about bottlenecking at the RAM.
When i was doing my "upgrading" last month, I took out the tri-core I had in my HTPC system and replaced it with the Quad core I had in my gaming pc. The benefits of what I had to what I went to are barely noticeable. We're talking a TINY proformance increase.
You'd be better off upgrading the mobo/cpu/ram IMO.

[LiquidRain]

Let me help you out, though I must consult first with my oracles. The cheapest Intel quad-core is $180, which isn't what I'd call cheap, but I'm not sure the AMD quad-cores offer a good value. The Intel dual-cores just might offer a better value proposition, believe it or not, especially for gaming. I agree with the above - I don't think you'll see much an improvement on an old motherboard with RAM that is that slow.

I've updated the original post with new case, heatsink, and fan recommendations, and shortened the monitor section considerably. I hope now that the guide is much shorter and easier to digest!

[LiquidRain]

My oracles advise me that you could save a lot of money with a used Phenom II, but again your RAM and board are a huge issue and bottleneck. Do you need quad-core for anything?

Check this link out. (http://www.anandtech.com/bench/Product/289?vs=22) They are the benchmarks for the CPU I'd recommend for you, versus the CPU you have now. They're two very different beasts - for gaming and desktop tasks the Intel smokes the AMD by an insane margin, but for video encoding and other quad-core-handy tasks it's a different story.

That Intel CPU comes in at $120-$130. (and AMD's recent processors won't fare much better against that Intel) The problem is we're right about to shift to another new Intel platform - we're supposed to be able to drop the new CPUs in to our existing motherboards, but who knows what manufacturers will do since it requires BIOS updating, so right now I'm a bit hesitant to recommend a motherboard. (I want to give you room in the future to upgrade to quad-core if you want) I'd like to get you spending maybe $220-$250 max on this. Lemme do some research.

[Slack3r78]

Check this link out. (http://www.anandtech.com/bench/Product/289?vs=22) They are the benchmarks for the CPU I'd recommend for you, versus the CPU you have now. They're two very different beasts - for gaming and desktop tasks the Intel smokes the AMD by an insane margin, but for video encoding and other quad-core-handy tasks it's a different story.

I'll have to look at this closer in a minute, but this is exactly why this is an annoying task. If I were just gaming, I'd probably just bite the bullet and go with something like an i5-2500k.

But I also do a lot of things with this box that thread well, too; it's not unusual for me to have a couple of VMs running at any given time doing stuff in the background, for example. There's definitely a temptation for me to go for more cores, even if it means sacrificing gaming performance somewhat. Anything is a step up from this ancient Phenom, though.

[LiquidRain]

I just read today that Intel's new desktop quad-cores launch in a month or two April 29th, not in June. Their new laptops launch in June. So maybe save up for a month or two 2 months and pick up the latest and greatest then? All signs point to the new ones being the same price as the current ones.

[Vandabo]

I just read today that Intel's new desktop quad-cores launch in a month or two, not in June. Their new laptops launch in June. So maybe save up for a month or two and pick up the latest and greatest then? All signs point to the new ones being the same price as the current ones.

I'm just glad they are going to use the same socket. I screwed myself once by building a computer right before they went to a new socket, thus destroying any kind of upgradability I might have had if I had waited a month.

[Tayaya]

So, I'm looking into making a modest upgrade to my graphics card. I'm not looking to spend a lot of money, just enough to improve my SC2 and Tribes: Ascend experience over these next few months.

This is my current card. GeForce GTS 250 (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814127445)
This is the card I'm contemplating upgrading to. Radeon HD 6770 (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814121474)

Opinions? I think everything else in my computer is okay. My CPU fan has been getting obnoxiously loud, I believe a little power surge might have damaged it, but everything else in the PC is fine. I don't know how plausible that sounds, but the obnoxious noises weren't present until a thunderstorm rolled through and I wasn't home to turn the PC off.

Like I said, my only two goals here are Tribes: Ascend and SC2. I might mix in a little Skyrim, but I'm not really aiming to play that to max on this system. Opinions?

I got an XFX branded 6870 1GB from Newegg for $169.99 after my instant savings. The performance since building my machine (a whole 6 days ago) has been absolutely stellar... I've been throwing half my steam library at it trying to get it to choke, and the most damage I've done is with the original Crysis, everything on VERY HIGH, but no AA, and I still get framerates in the high 30s.... just low enough to have it not move like silky smoothness, but still quite, quite smooth.

In a world where we actually have $600 graphics cards, this one feels like an absolute steal.

Correction: I got this one. (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814150521)

[Stmfuller]

is that 6870 you have a double card?
edit:
double as in basically two cards in one.

[Reverant]

I just read today that Intel's new desktop quad-cores launch in a month or two April 29th, not in June. Their new laptops launch in June. So maybe save up for a month or two 2 months and pick up the latest and greatest then? All signs point to the new ones being the same price as the current ones.

I was JUST wondering about this. I'm planning on building a desktop around May or June. The build on the front page (z68/i2500k560ti) is basically what I planned on grabbing, but if Intel and Nvidia are dropping new products this spring, it seems like I should wait for the new hardware to release before I make the final decision my next build.

Edit: Just read some reviews for AMD's 7850, which is coming out within the next couple weeks. At a slightly higher price point than the 560 Ti, it performs no better or, in some cases, worse! Unless Nvidia beats itself with their next chipset, I'll be grabbing the 560 Ti.

[PathMaster]

I've updated the original post with new case, heatsink, and fan recommendations, and shortened the monitor section considerably. I hope now that the guide is much shorter and easier to digest!

Like the revisions. Much more simplified. I especially like the monitor panel images. Highlights the issues very well. Prices have dropped on the higher end panels to make them far more affordable, thankfully.

[Tayaya]

is that 6870 you have a double card?
edit:
double as in basically two cards in one.

If you mean "does it take more than one PCI slot in terms of space" then yes! Check out the link I sent ya.

[LiquidRain]

Double-slot cards are not "double cards" - double cards are where you take 2 graphics chips and put them on the same board. There haven't been many of those in recent years, and the 6870 isn't one of them. :)

[Stmfuller]

Liquid knows what I'm talking about...
I haven't heard anything super good about those types of cards (double cards) in the past, which is why I was curious if it was indeed a "double".

usually the benefit is canceled out by the stupid amount of heat the darn thing creates.

[Tayaya]

Double-slot cards are not "double cards" - double cards are where you take 2 graphics chips and put them on the same board. There haven't been many of those in recent years, and the 6870 isn't one of them. :)

Ahhh, a dual GPU card, like the GeForce 7950 GX2 of old.

No, the 6870 is not that! It's a single GPU card, but at the resolution of my 27" LED monitor, 1920 x1080, it's more than enough. The bang-for-buck level of this card has made me very happy. And it came with a Steam key for Dirt 3, which is a very good game!

[Reverant]

Since memory is stupidly cheap these days, I'm considering getting 16GB instead of 8GB. Is there a good reason to do this? All I do with the desktop is play games, watch movies, or do office work. Never more than one of them at a time, actually. I'm thinking about running FRAPS and doing some game recording, which is the only thing I can think of that would necessitate 16 over 8 gigs of ram. Thoughts?

[LiquidRain]

I'd hazard a guess that FRAPS doesn't consume nearly as much RAM as you think.

It is cheap to slot in 16GB nowadays, but you still won't see much benefit. You're better off tossing that money towards a graphics card. (or CPU, if you're not already looking at an i5-2500k. or cooling, since you're better off overclocking an i5 than buying an i7)

[J Arcane]

My firm belief is that more RAM is never going to hurt if you can afford it, but you probably don't need that much.

[Reverant]

Sounds good. I'm swapping out that second set of 2x4gb for the Cooler Master 212 in my shopping cart.

My next question is about SSD. My Windows install and games have been sitting on a 320gb SATA drive for about 4 years now. Am I going to get a performance boost out of the SSD equivalent to the premium I'd have to pay for a new drive?

[LiquidRain]

My recommendation: Get a 60-90GB drive for apps and Windows, and keep using the same old SATA drive for games until prices drop on HDDs. When HDDs do go back to normal pricing, pick up a fast 1TB drive for games. SSDs for gaming are still in the "luxury item" realm; you'll spend over $300 getting a 240GB SSD. (a 120GB or 160GB may suffice but you'll be limited in how many games you can have installed at once)

[Karak]

Since memory is stupidly cheap these days, I'm considering getting 16GB instead of 8GB. Is there a good reason to do this? All I do with the desktop is play games, watch movies, or do office work. Never more than one of them at a time, actually. I'm thinking about running FRAPS and doing some game recording, which is the only thing I can think of that would necessitate 16 over 8 gigs of ram. Thoughts?

For NOW 8 is more than enough and the money can go elsewhere. If you were mixing music or doing particular media working 16 would be good. But I record using Fraps all the time and that's on my XP machine with 3.2 or whatever it rounds down to, and my Windows 7 with 8 and my other windows 7 with 12. Fraps barely uses ANYTHING.

[bryan]

I think having a SSD would help you more with Fraps than more RAM. That thing outputs massive files.

[Karak]

I think having a SSD would help you more with Fraps than more RAM. That thing outputs massive files.

That is actually true. It dawned on me after I posted that I had dropped fraps in response to that taxi or tacxci recorder. I will have to find the name of the program but it was amazing.

[Entropy]

For years I've been wanting to upgrade my Number Cruncher at home...

EVGA just released the new SR-X (http://www.tomshardware.com/news/Classified-SR-X-LGA2011-Dual-CPU-Xeon-E5,14928.html#xtor=RSS-993)

[Xerxes]

How often do you guys do a upgrade.

[LiquidRain]

Every 2 years is my average. Under the current pace of Intel CPUs and both GPU makers it's a good pace. Intel comes out with new architecture every 2 years, and every 2 years GPU performance goes up enough to justify an upgrade. (yearly updates usually don't make as big a difference)

[Xerxes]

I only ask cause you know I built my machine less than a year ago, but I was already thinking about putting some finishing touches on it but it's like, that's pricey gold plating. "You don't need 16GB of memory Brian." >_<

[diablopath]

Every 2 years is my average. Under the current pace of Intel CPUs and both GPU makers it's a good pace. Intel comes out with new architecture every 2 years, and every 2 years GPU performance goes up enough to justify an upgrade. (yearly updates usually don't make as big a difference)

Do you buy the brand new architecture, or do you always go "best bang for buck?" Whenever I shop for computer parts, I tend to do the latter, as that's typically more than enough to handle whatever I want to throw at it. Just curious as to how others do it.

[Bone]

How often do you guys do a upgrade.

To answer you and Diablopath, I usually take the best bang for your buck route (provided by Liquid) and plan on upgrading video card at least once. Doing it this way, my last computer lasted 4 years! I only upgraded GPU and the power supply during that time and I played every game I wanted to play. By 2011 I was still able to run most games (TF2, BF2, Fallout3, Crysis), but maybe not at full res with all doodads enabled. I was forced to upgrade for BF3 and Skyrim.

[Entropy]

How often do you guys do a upgrade.

In the 90s and the early 2000s I upgraded every 18 months.

I bought my last PC 4 years ago and only now am I feeling the urge to upgrade.

[Reverant]

I'm unintentionally on a 4 year cycle. 2004 and 2008 were my major builds, and this year I'll be swapping out nearly everything on the inside except drives and power supply.

[roboninja]

Yeah, I try to do at least one video card upgrade before a new build. I'll be holding out until the next architecture; still have an i7-920 and an ATI 6970. But I am getting that itch.

[Wackman3000]

My first build was in 2008 and it lasted me until the end of 2011. However within that time I did 4 GPU upgrades since it was the only thing really holding me back.

I assume my newest build will follow a similar path of upgrades.

[Xerxes]

To answer you and Diablopath, I usually take the best bang for your buck route (provided by Liquid) and plan on upgrading video card at least once. Doing it this way, my last computer lasted 4 years! I only upgraded GPU and the power supply during that time and I played every game I wanted to play. By 2011 I was still able to run most games (TF2, BF2, Fallout3, Crysis), but maybe not at full res with all doodads enabled. I was forced to upgrade for BF3 and Skyrim.

Seems like a good plan. I'll leave the gold plating for then. :)

Probably not the extra RAM unless that's the future we living in.:eek:

[LiquidRain]

Do you buy the brand new architecture, or do you always go "best bang for buck?" Whenever I shop for computer parts, I tend to do the latter, as that's typically more than enough to handle whatever I want to throw at it. Just curious as to how others do it.
Best bang for my buck with brand new architecture (if it's worth it) is how I usually do it. The PC industry has swung around so much in the last 6-8 years there's been no real pattern to my upgrading. I ran an Athlon64 followed by an Athlon X2 on the same motherboard for a little over 3 years, but then did 2 quick upgrades in a row on new architecture. (dumped Phenom II, did a weird laptop phase for a while, then did Core i5 gen 2)

Anyway. *ahem* The parts recommended in the guide should place you on a 2-3 year upgrade path. (4 if you do graphics card upgrades mid-cycle) At current industry pace I don't see yearly upgrades being worth it. Every 2 years is for demanding folks (60fps everything cranked or bust) or people like me who get engineering boners and admire the latest and greatest. Every 3 years is a solid plan, and what I'd do if I wasn't a terrible tech-loving impulse buyer. And if you're getting 4 years or more out of your box you built a damn good box and rock at keeping on a budget. :)

[Slack3r78]

I very nearly pulled the trigger on a new build this morning. Newegg had Kingston HyperX 2x4GB kits for $15 each. Fortunately they sold out before I could talk myself into it.

I'm actually leaning heavily toward going Bulldozer, despite the general consensus otherwise. The FX-4100 benches favorably against the i3-2100 while costing about $20 less. I do enough non-gaming things that thread well that I'd like to have the extra cores. I'd have the option of throwing even more cores in down the line with another iteration of Bulldozer. I could also keep my budget in the ~$250 range, which is really what I'd like to try to stay near, as well.

If it were a pure gaming build, I doubt it'd make a lot of sense, but I have a tendency to do things like leave VMs running in the background for weeks on end, so I see some potential real benefit for my use case.

[LiquidRain]

A Phenom II X4 is faster than an FX 4100. (just maybe not when saddled with that old-ass RAM you got) AMD knows this; they charge more for the Phenom IIs. To put this into perspective: Phenom IIs are equivalent to Core 2 Duos in terms of performance. And those Core 2 Duos came out over 4 years ago.

Bulldozer/Zambezi simply stinks. You either go all-out on a high-end chip and get told "why didn't you buy Sandy Bridge" or you lowball and get told "why didn't you go Phenom II X4." (or for gaming-centric, "why didn't you go Intel.") Buying Bulldozer is a no-win.

I know you can only afford so much, but at that price you're simply not going to get a good buy if you upgrade or buy new. Save up. An extra $100 will go a hell of a long way.

Think about this one benchmark: an x264 encode benchmark. Something that makes use of 4 cores. Despite being short 2 cores an i3-2100 gets 95% of the performance of the FX-4100. 2 extra cores on AMD nets you a total 5% more performance on threaded workloads.

That is a massive load of what the fuck.

edit: I've never looked at these numbers really hard. WHAT THE FUCK AMD. 2 more cores for 5-10% performance gains? And the extra power draw they pull?! WHAT?! Yeah the i3-2100 compares favourably but it's 2 cores short! Cripes! I just.. what. Even when we're talking VMs you'll get more performance off the i3-2100 because unless all your VMs are pegging your CPU at 100% you're going to get better performance running any single-threaded app within those VMs. Dude it's just not worth it. Don't go AMD. Save your pennies for a few months. Live off ramen for a few weeks. Or simply wait to buy a game until it's cheap. The extra $80 you'd spend going to an Intel quad-core would be huge and would pay off for years.

[Slack3r78]

I'm more interested in the extra cores to offload threads that are running in the background. I can limit the number of cores a VM can touch and keep a spike in usage there from affecting everything else I'm doing (which I saw first hand moving from an X2 to the Phenom). Bulldozer should tock before I need to upgrade again and I've never looked to have a powerhouse, just something adequate for what I need.

I could drop more money, but, eh. I have other, more expensive hobbies I'd rather allocate the funds to.

[LiquidRain]

Your decision, I've given you all the info I can. It'd be a bad buy. I think you might even be better off picking up an AM2 Phenom II for cheap and use what you got than spend on mobo, RAM, and Bulldozer. Bulldozer is that awful.

[Reverant]

Yeah, I try to do at least one video card upgrade before a new build. I'll be holding out until the next architecture; still have an i7-920 and an ATI 6970. But I am getting that itch.

You STILL have a 6970? :p And here I thought my GTX 275 was relatively young...

[Entropy]

I didn't realize the 6970 is old :o

[LiquidRain]

It isn't at all - that's the joke...

[Reverant]

It's hard to tell sincerity by a short, bland blurb of text. Especially since some PC enthusiasts actually do swap out +$600 SLI slotted cards a few times a year ;)

[Karak]

Yeah, I try to do at least one video card upgrade before a new build. I'll be holding out until the next architecture; still have an i7-920 and an ATI 6970. But I am getting that itch.

I have a i7-920 as well, overclocked to almost insane numbers now. Love that proc. What a beast. I have a 570GTX instead of your 6970.

I upgrade only when warranted and never sooner, and only with gear that fits into a specific segment.
Hardware that supports Music making 1st and high end-gaming second
Hardware that gets the most bang for the buck in that category.

Works for me every single time. Systems seem to last forever.
I don't see any need to upgrade from my i920 or the 570gtx for a minimum 1 to 2 more years.

[Reverant]

Newegg has a sale on a 60gb SSD for $90, which is tempting. Is there an easy way to clone my Windows 7 installation and drop it into an SSD if I grab one?

[Karak]

Newegg has a sale on a 60gb SSD for $90, which is tempting. Is there an easy way to clone my Windows 7 installation and drop it into an SSD if I grab one?

Yep tons of different cloning programs will work just fine for this. I just did it. Can't remember. I think I used Easus todo, or perhaps OS Migration.

[Stmfuller]

Your decision, I've given you all the info I can. It'd be a bad buy. I think you might even be better off picking up an AM2 Phenom II for cheap and use what you got than spend on mobo, RAM, and Bulldozer. Bulldozer is that awful.

You mean AM3 right?
You could probably put together a 900 series CPU kit (mobo, CPU and RAM) for about $300 or less. coupled with the 6850 I sent him and he'd be straight.

you're right though, I went looking through AMD's new FX series, unwhelming is an understatment.


I really need to work on the intel retail edge program I'm still in. Twice a year they put together a sick cpu/mobo combo for very inexpensive.

[LiquidRain]

He currently has an AM2 board and DDR2 RAM. For $100-$150 he could pick up a Phenom II. Problem is that wouldn't be a fantastic buy either, but at least he'd get higher performance per core than an FX chip. I don't think upgrading to AM3 would be a real solution, though, and neither would buying faster DDR2 RAM. (which is more expensive than DDR3)

He's stuck and he can't/won't spend enough money to get him to a better place.

[Stmfuller]

He currently has an AM2 board and DDR2 RAM. For $100-$150 he could pick up a Phenom II. Problem is that wouldn't be a fantastic buy either, but at least he'd get higher performance per core than an FX chip. I don't think upgrading to AM3 would be a real solution, though, and neither would buying faster DDR2 RAM. (which is more expensive than DDR3)

He's stuck and he can't/won't spend enough money to get him to a better place.

oh yeah, nm then.
I did that recently. no bump in speed worth mentioning.

[Shadowstorm]

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814150591

One day this will be mine.

[Reverant]

Yeesh, that's far too pricey for my tastes. You'd be better off picking up a 7870 when it launches, and if you've still got money burning a hole in your pocket later, nab a second and slot it in Crossfire.

[LordDon]

Dammit, can't find a 560 ti for under $220 right now. Should probably wait for the new batch to come out anyway, and hopefully the prices will drop.

I'm in an odd place where my mobo supports ddr3 ram but only old Yorkfield chips (currently running a core2 duo 3ghz), and I'm running an 8800 GT 512. Picking up 8gb of ddr3 1333 gskill ripjaws.

I'm getting memory and gpu I can carry to a new mobo cpu build maybe this time next year, so something that will last another couple years. I was thinking a 460 but that doesn't have dx11 support. Hell of a lot cheaper though.

Grah, crappy in-between builds.

[Entropy]

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814150591

One day this will be mine.

Pretty sweet...I'd love to get one too...so pricey though.

It will be interesting to see what the pricing is on NVidia's Kepler cards

[Stmfuller]

Pretty sweet...I'd love to get one too...so pricey though.

It will be interesting to see what the pricing is on NVidia's Kepler cards

I have the core version of that card.
it's badass

[Entropy]

Nvidia 'Kepler' GeForce GTX 680 Specifications Leaked (http://www.tomshardware.com/news/Nvidia-Kepler-GeForce-GTX680-gpu,15012.html)

[LordDon]

That needs to come out already so the other cards will drop in price.

[Reverant]

7870 comes out tomorrow! I'm excited.

[Reverant]

That needs to come out already so the other cards will drop in price.

The GTX 500 series has just dropped in anticipation of Kepler flagship coming out within the week. The 570 is now $300 (from $350). I think I'm going to take the plunge on that one. With the 7870 at $360 and offering marginal performance boosts over the 570 at the resolutions I'll be playing at (if any at all!), the 570 at the new price point is hard to pass up.

Edit: An EVGA GTX 570 1280mb @ $290 at Newegg. (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814130593)

[LordDon]

I'm hoping for sub-$200 on a 560 Ti, that seems like the next sweet spot for me. (this 8800 has treated me well for 4 years now)

[Reverant]

I'm hoping for sub-$200 on a 560 Ti, that seems like the next sweet spot for me. (this 8800 has treated me well for 4 years now)

They're agonizingly close, actually. You can get one from Newegg for $209.99 after the MIR.

[LiquidRain]

Well, looks like AMD's got a fight on their hands now. The new GTX 680 is generally faster, cooler, and more efficient than the 7970. Probably going to be some large price drops coming in the next couple weeks. Would be exciting to see an all-out price war, though I doubt we'll get it.

[bryan]

Been 3 months since 7970, makes sense to drop the price. They got nothing to lose.

[Reverant]

GTX 680, if you can find one, runs around $500- that's a significant price drop from the 7970 AND a performance boost!

I'm eager to see how the mid-range Kepler cards fare... if they ever come out. I haven't seen anything about them. I have seen rumors that the 680 actually was supposed to be a mid range card, but Nvidia decided that since even their mid range card is such a beast, they decided to launch it against AMD's top end.

[Entropy]

This motherboard has a mini-gun and bullets....

http://images10.newegg.com/NeweggImage/productimage/13-130-636-02.jpg

[The Iron Weasel]

I am currently running a Asus Nvidia GTX 570 1.2GB OC. I have an Asus P8P67 Deluxe Motherboard. My first question is it worth looking into upgrading to a GTX 680, and my second question is can I run a GTX 680 on a PCI-E 2.0 motherboard?

[Grifter]

I am currently running a Asus Nvidia GTX 570 1.2GB OC. I have an Asus P8P67 Deluxe Motherboard. My first question is it worth looking into upgrading to a GTX 680, and my second question is can I run a GTX 680 on a PCI-E 2.0 motherboard?

Whether it's worth it is completely dependent on what resolution you are running. If you're using a 1920x1200 monitor or less at 60Hz it's probably not worth it for most. If you are one of those people who like to run every game at max settings while maintaining a perfect 60fps no matter what and can sell the 470 for a decent price I say go for it.

You will be fine with a PCI-E 2.0

I'm using eVGA's step-up program to go from the 580 to the 680 which should let me run most games maxed at 120fps @1080p or a constant 60fps while in 3D mode.

[The Iron Weasel]

Whether it's worth it is completely dependent on what resolution you are running. If you're using a 1920x1200 monitor or less at 60Hz it's probably not worth it for most. If you are one of those people who like to run every game at max settings while maintaining a perfect 60fps no matter what and can sell the 470 for a decent price I say go for it.

You will be fine with a PCI-E 2.0

I'm using eVGA's step-up program to go from the 580 to the 680 which should let me run most games maxed at 120fps @1080p or a constant 60fps while in 3D mode.

Thanks for the insight. I have been out of the loop for so long on PC hardware before building this one, so my knowledge on these things is exceedingly limited.

Now this is a sort of off topic question, but I assume it would be the best place to ask it. Anyone building a gaming pc over the last few years seems to go with an Intel based system. With all these rumors swirling around Microsoft and Sony and the like going 100% AMD, I was curious as to why they would opt for the seemingly less favored tech producer. I imagine it could be simply they have bid lower, but I was curious regardless. Also what are the major differences between Intel CPUs and AMD CPUs?

[LiquidRain]

Also what are the major differences between Intel CPUs and AMD CPUs?
AMD's got more experience creating custom chips for different purposes [see: many consoles], and their designs coming in the pipeline for the CPU are more modular. (AMD's CEO says they're going to make designs like "take this CPU block and this GPU block and put them on the same chip and ship it") AMD is also open to using non-x86 CPUs in their chip designs, so you could have an ARM or POWER CPU with an AMD GPU. AMD's integrated graphics are also much more powerful than Intel's, there's a lot more experience there, and AMD has a wealth of knowledge on building chips for manufacturing processes for both GlobalFoundries factories and TSMC factories. Intel only knows Intel's factories and processes, save for a few edge cases where they outsourced to TSMC.

My (completely speculated) guess is that no console will use AMD x86 - it's simply not a great CPU design. They could, however, use AMD to integrate a non-x86 CPU with a graphics processor from AMD and put it on a single die. Like the Xbox does in the Xbox S.

The unlikely, long shot guess is that AMD is going to use next-gen consoles to shoehorn-in their Fusion plan, where the CPU is the GPU (and vice-versa). AMD has been planning for years on going this way, but they haven't really delivered the concept yet. Their Fusion chips are just a CPU and a GPU sharing the same memory bus - they're slowly becoming more integrated but it's still not quite there. A customized chip (with customized devkits, compilers, tools, etc) could really bring Fusion into the spotlight and create a lot of games and apps that can take advantage of GPGPU on the PC. Truly next-generation computing. Problem is that it'd be quite a bet since AMD hasn't really proven the tech so far, and their slow integration of CPU and GPU isn't confidence building. It's the most exciting possibility in my opinion, though.

[Reverant]

Speaking of the GTX 580, you can grab one now for just a bit more than the new 7870s. EVGA's got one for $390 after MIR. The benchmarks are pretty close, going in favor of either card depending on the game. I wonder which one would be better as a long term solution, ie for those like me who upgrade only every few years?

[Entropy]

Starting to put together specs for a new workstation...currently I have a 4 year old Mac Pro (running Windows 7). It has dual 2.8ghz quad cores. It's finally showing it's age.

So far this is what I've got:

ASUS Z9PE-D8 WS Dual LGA 2011
2 x Xeon E5-2643 (3.3ghz quad core with HT)
Corsair Obsidian Series 800D case
Nvidia 680 (no brand yet)
16 gigs DDR3-1600 RAM (no brand yet)
120gig SSD...maybe Intel

Not sure what power supply to get...no idea how much wattage I will need.

[Slack3r78]

So I ultimately decided that this is a stupid time to upgrade. With Ivy Bridge around the corner, makes more sense for me to wait another month than anything. Given I stretch years out of a system, having Thunderbolt is a major plus.

I did, however, upgrade my monitor in the meantime. Picked up an LG IPS236V last week. Best Buy had them on sale for $199 and I had a $25 BB gift card that I'd been trying to figure out what to do with since I never shop there. $190 out of pocket for a 23" IPS panel ain't bad at all.

It's also convinced me that I will never own a TN panel again. I'd used a Dell 2005FPW IPS since 2005 until about six months ago when it finally died. Used a family member's spare 19" Viewsonic TN to get me by because it was free and hated every minute of it. There's just no comparison between the two panel types. The color shift on TN panels even a few degrees off direct viewing angle drives me up a wall; this especially becomes a problem as the panel increases in size since even sitting directly in front of the panel the edges can end up color shifting. This IPS panel is perfect from nearly any angle and across the room. Just a dramatic difference.

[Shadowstorm]

Starting to put together specs for a new workstation...currently I have a 4 year old Mac Pro (running Windows 7). It has dual 2.8ghz quad cores. It's finally showing it's age.

So far this is what I've got:

ASUS Z9PE-D8 WS Dual LGA 2011
2 x Xeon E5-2643 (3.3ghz quad core with HT)
Corsair Obsidian Series 800D case
Nvidia 680 (no brand yet)
16 gigs DDR3-1600 RAM (no brand yet)
120gig SSD...maybe Intel

Not sure what power supply to get...no idea how much wattage I will need.

Be sure to consider other SSDs as well. I'm really enjoying my Samsung 830 series SSD. I picked up the 128 GB version but there are other variants as well.

128 GB version (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820147134).
256 GB version (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820147135).
September 2011 review (http://www.anandtech.com/show/4863/the-samsung-ssd-830-review) of the 830 series from Anandtech.

I previously used a Crucial C300 which was great, however this drive offers significant read/write increases:

http://i.imgur.com/mzZJI.png

[LiquidRain]

Speaking of the GTX 580, you can grab one now for just a bit more than the new 7870s. EVGA's got one for $390 after MIR. The benchmarks are pretty close, going in favor of either card depending on the game. I wonder which one would be better as a long term solution, ie for those like me who upgrade only every few years?
The GTX 580 is better than the 7970, not the 7870. :) I'd probably get the GTX 580 due to the lower power usage and (subsequently) the cooler running. The only killer feature of the 7970 now is its ability to power off the card's fan when the monitors connected to it are turned off. You also get the added benefit of more stable drivers, I imagine it'll be a bit longer before AMD gets the all kinks out of their new architecture.

So I ultimately decided that this is a stupid time to upgrade.
Yay! :) Common sense prevails! Glad you're enjoying your new IPS monitor. :)

Not sure what power supply to get...no idea how much wattage I will need.
A single card I'd say you need 750-800W. I can't recommend mobos or CPUs though, dual CPU stuff is out of my league as stated in the OP. :)

[Doogie2K]

So I'm having an issue where, when I play AI War and my friend and I have both our fleets in system (never mind AI fleets), my system starts to seriously chug. The important thing to note here is that we're talking a minimum of 4,000 objects to constantly update the position and status of at any given time, but it's zoomed out, so everything's just sprites. While I suppose it's possible that the GPU is a limiting factor, it seems unlikely given that last point, and that my GPU temp barely moves with the fan at a steady 65%.

So my question is: do I dabble in the dark arts of overclocking my two-year-old i5 750? Or slap another 4 GB of RAM in to join the 4 GB I already have and call it a day? Is one more likely to help than the other?

[BrassGecko]

So I'm having an issue where, when I play AI War and my friend and I have both our fleets in system (never mind AI fleets), my system starts to seriously chug. The important thing to note here is that we're talking a minimum of 4,000 objects to constantly update the position and status of at any given time, but it's zoomed out, so everything's just sprites. While I suppose it's possible that the GPU is a limiting factor, it seems unlikely given that last point, and that my GPU temp barely moves with the fan at a steady 65%.

So my question is: do I dabble in the dark arts of overclocking my two-year-old i5 750? Or slap another 4 GB of RAM in to join the 4 GB I already have and call it a day? Is one more likely to help than the other?

I had zero issues in AI War with a Core 2 Duo, so your processor's probably not the problem.

[LiquidRain]

Use GPU-Z to keep track of GPU *usage*, not fan speed, and keep Windows Task Manager open to keep rudimentary track of CPU usage. See which one's the bottleneck. If it's neither, delve into Windows Performance Monitor (do some googlin') and keep track of your swap paging/IOps.

[Doogie2K]

Use GPU-Z to keep track of GPU *usage*, not fan speed, and keep Windows Task Manager open to keep rudimentary track of CPU usage. See which one's the bottleneck. If it's neither, delve into Windows Performance Monitor (do some googlin') and keep track of your swap paging/IOps.

Well, I was referring to the temperature, but yeah, I'll give that a download and see what's up.

And now I really wish I could stream all that info to my iPad somehow so I'm not constantly alt-tabbing.

[Crittias]

So I ultimately decided that this is a stupid time to upgrade. With Ivy Bridge around the corner, makes more sense for me to wait another month than anything. Given I stretch years out of a system, having Thunderbolt is a major plus.I'm in a similar boat. It's about time for me to refresh my current system, but I'm not in any kind of rush. When you decide to build your new system, be sure to post, so that I can poach your best ideas :)

[Reverant]

I've got a question concerning Windows licensing. I know I'll need to reactivate once I swap out my motherboard and CPU, but I'm unsure if I can do that with my combination of installs. I originally had Windows Vista installed, which I upgraded to Windows 7 Professional using the $20 Windows 7 upgrade disc I bought from the student stores. I know I can't transfer that OEM license to a new motherboard- will I have issues transferring my Windows 7 key to a new motherboard, since it's based on the Vista OEM key?

[J Arcane]

I've got a question concerning Windows licensing. I know I'll need to reactivate once I swap out my motherboard and CPU, but I'm unsure if I can do that with my combination of installs. I originally had Windows Vista installed, which I upgraded to Windows 7 Professional using the $20 Windows 7 upgrade disc I bought from the student stores. I know I can't transfer that OEM license to a new motherboard- will I have issues transferring my Windows 7 key to a new motherboard, since it's based on the Vista OEM key?
Posts like this are why I still pirate Windows.