Faith healing gone wrong; father found guilty in death of child

[Lance Uppercut]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090802/ap_on_re_us/us_prayer_death
WAUSAU, Wis. – A central Wisconsin man accused of killing his 11-year-old daughter by praying instead of seeking medical care was found guilty Saturday of second-degree reckless homicide.

Dale Neumann, 47, was convicted in the March 23, 2008, death of his daughter, Madeline, from undiagnosed diabetes. Prosecutors contended he should have rushed the girl to a hospital because she couldn't walk, talk, eat or drink. Instead, Madeline died on the floor of the family's rural Weston home as people surrounded her and prayed. Someone called 911 when she stopped breathing.

What bugs me about this story? Undiagnosed diabetes doesn't exactly kill overnight; even at the point where it reaches severe diabetic ketoacidosis, the condition is still very treatable with IV fluids and insulin. The father was praying instead during all that time he had to realize something was wrong and take his daughter to a doctor's office.

[Hawkzombie]

While I think the father is guilty, this does raise some important questions from a religious standpoint.

At what point does one interfere with a religious belief when someone is in danger? Should everyone who knew what was going on before it came to a head be held accountable? Is this a case of neglegence, or extreme zelotry?

The fact he was found guilty could set a dangerous precedent. Are parents going to be jailed because when their child gets sick, they don't rush them to a hospital (prayer or no prayer involved)?

Still, I feel sorry for the girl having to suffer through that.

[Ultima Thulian]

As a legal guardian, he's responsible for his child's well-being. He fucked up in the worse way possible. I don't care if he believes in the promises of his obviously deaf god, fuck him. That child suffered needlessly cause he's a failure as a parent and as a human being. Fuck him. He needs to go to jail. He can do all the praying he wants there.

[Laughing Penguin]

Are parents going to be jailed because when their child gets sick, they don't rush them to a hospital (prayer or no prayer involved)?

Still, I feel sorry for the girl having to suffer through that.


The issue here is that there's a difference between a child getting sick and a child that is OBVIOUSLY DYING. As was mentioned earlier, dying from diabetes is not a fast process, or something you just don't see coming. From the report, this girl died a fairly long, really unpleasant death. I can respect the man's faith, but when the child can no longer walk, talk, or eat... it's far past time to get a doctor involved.

What really gets to me is that someone called 911 just after it was too late to help. They clearly understood the need for emergency help and how to get it, but were willing to sit back and wait until the poor girl was effectively dead. I don't think this ruling sets a bad precedent at all, it sends a perfectly reasonable precedent when it's clear that this child could easily have been saved if the father was responsible.

[Johan]

I've never had this kind of spiritual problem (I have others, instead), because in my opinion, faith doesn't require me to test God in this way (and that's what I see the expectation of faith-based-healing as being, testing God, which is a biblical no-no most of the time, though not always. That's another topic, however).

I pray for my kids AND I take them to the doctor when it's obviously necessary. As an example, it takes faith to drive across a bridge; faith that the engineers built it to work properly, and faith that inspection crews are watching it and keeping it up. I don't jump off of it and pray on the way down that God will catch me. He won't. He gifted other people with the ability to build that bridge, and I should use it when I need to. The father in this story effectively threw his son off the bridge and expected God to catch him. He didn't. That doesn't shake my faith in God. It reminds me of how susceptible people are to mistakenly believing you can manipulate God into doing what you want. It won't work.

Personally, I utilize the knowledge and expertise of people God has gifted in these areas, like doctors, while trying to educate myself as much as possible as to risks I don't want to accept on behalf of my kids, and also realizing doctors are not God and they make many very serious errors. So, the long and short of it for me is to pray, educate myself and do the best I can, make use of the talents of people around me and my family, and leave the results to God. That's it.

I don't care if he believes in the promises of his obviously deaf god

The absence of an answer in the affirmative is not evidence of the absence of an answer.

[Ultima Thulian]

Mayhap. But the man pleaded with "God", and he ignored him. Or gave him a "No", as you seem to suggest. Either way, a little child suffered a miserable death.

ANYWAY, I do agree with you on the testing of God as a biblical no-no. And I don't get where some of these "no doctors" Christians are getting their ideas. Was not Luke a physician? Where are they getting this idea (I'm not being rhetorical...I'm seriously asking here)?

[Esquilax1138]

Was not Luke a physician?

Not sure what movies you been watching, Luke was a Jedi.
http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p287/rickygabino/JEDI.jpg

Where are they getting this idea (I'm not being rhetorical...I'm seriously asking here)?

Maybe he took "In god we trust" a bit too literal?


Obligatory....

http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj314/Esquilax1138/where-is-your-god-now-1.jpg

[Ancalagon]

As Johan says, I dont see why the guy could not have thought that perhaps God could act to save his child through other people. Does he always need to reach a great hand down and directly save the child? Can you meet him halfway sometimes? God helps those who help themselves after all.

He should have sought all possible means to help his child, and that includes modern medicine.

This is, I fear, a dangerous and direct consequence of people suddenly not liking modern science and medicine. This is what happens when you turn your back on what scientists have studied for decades.

[Esquilax1138]

As Johan says, I dont see why the guy could not have thought that perhaps God could act to save his child through other people.

The guy probably thought that this was god's way of testing his faith, kind of like a cosmic game of chicken. If he takes the sick kid to the doctor, he'd be admitting his faith in god was not total. So for them it's either god saves the child, confirming their faith, or god needed the child in heaven, also confirming their faith.

I bet he's still thinking, "If only I'd had more faith and prayed a little harder..."

[Narradisall]

The fact he was found guilty could set a dangerous precedent. Are parents going to be jailed because when their child gets sick, they don't rush them to a hospital (prayer or no prayer involved)?

I'm all for it. The condition she was suffering you would have KNOWN something was SERIOUSLY fucking wrong with your child. I mean I can understand if your kid is ill, you think they just have flu and they die overnight while your caring for them that its probably not neglect.

Watching your child fall ill, and days/weeks while doing nothing is child neglect, period, and you deserve time for it. Relgion or not.

Personally I abhore faith healers. They take advantage of people in most cases and often at the detrement to the patient.

[Kelegacy]

I think this guy could plead permanent insanity. People who would rather pray than seek medical help for their dying or sick child can't be sane.

I'm glad the guy was found guilty and HOPE this sets a precedent. I think this happens more often than we believe. It's fucking ridiculous and hope their God punishes them for such ignorance, more than just the guilt associated with just indirectly murdering their own child.

[ShivaX]

I've never had this kind of spiritual problem (I have others, instead), because in my opinion, faith doesn't require me to test God in this way (and that's what I see the expectation of faith-based-healing as being, testing God, which is a biblical no-no most of the time, though not always. That's another topic, however).

I pray for my kids AND I take them to the doctor when it's obviously necessary. As an example, it takes faith to drive across a bridge; faith that the engineers built it to work properly, and faith that inspection crews are watching it and keeping it up. I don't jump off of it and pray on the way down that God will catch me. He won't. He gifted other people with the ability to build that bridge, and I should use it when I need to. The father in this story effectively threw his son off the bridge and expected God to catch him. He didn't. That doesn't shake my faith in God. It reminds me of how susceptible people are to mistakenly believing you can manipulate God into doing what you want. It won't work.

Personally, I utilize the knowledge and expertise of people God has gifted in these areas, like doctors, while trying to educate myself as much as possible as to risks I don't want to accept on behalf of my kids, and also realizing doctors are not God and they make many very serious errors. So, the long and short of it for me is to pray, educate myself and do the best I can, make use of the talents of people around me and my family, and leave the results to God. That's it.



The absence of an answer in the affirmative is not evidence of the absence of an answer.

This reminds me of when I used to be a telemarketer. We sold a road side service program (ala AAA) and the worst response people ever gave to a query about "What would you do if you broke down on the road" was "God will take care of me."

Hell we actually called a dude when he was broken down on the side of the road and he didn't want the program and used that as an excuse. God help you if you suggested that maybe us calling was the Lord trying to help.

This all comes back to the famous Flood Story:

The Flood Story

A flood threatens a town, forcing everyone to evacuate, But Joe thinks,
"I'm a devout man, God will save me," and stays
put. As the waters rise, Joe's neighbor comes by and says, "Joe come with me, we've got to go." Joe declines,
"I'm a devout man, God will save me."

The waters keep rising, Joe scrambles to his second floor. A firefighter in a rowboat comes by. "Get in the boat or you'll drown," he says. Joe again declines, saying,
"God will save me. So this flood story goes."



Finally, the flood waters force Joe to his roof. A police helicopter comes by and throws down a rope. "Climb up or you'll drown," the policeman yells. "No, I'm a devout man,
God will save me," Joe replies.

Soon, Joe drowns.
He arrives in heaven and challenges God.
"Why didn't you help me?"

"What do you mean?" God says.

"I did help. I sent a neighbor, a firefighter and a helicopter."

[Narradisall]

That actuallt reminds me of when I was working some some housing cases.

The number of devout African people (it was an African housing thing) who said 'God will provide' all the time was scary. Often people would be offering them help to prevent them getting evicted and they would always say "god will provide". Every single one of them ended up homeless.

[Ultima Thulian]

"There will be water if God wills it, say thankya."

Please...someone get the reference...

[Lance Uppercut]

That actuallt reminds me of when I was working some some housing cases.

The number of devout African people (it was an African housing thing) who said 'God will provide' all the time was scary. Often people would be offering them help to prevent them getting evicted and they would always say "god will provide". Every single one of them ended up homeless.

Talking as a lapsed Catholic, that's not faith at all. That's apathy.

[Stmfuller]

Damnit ShivaX stole my thunder.
But that's exactly what I thought of when i heard this story.
So, he fucking got what he deserved.
and, if hell exists I hope he burns for it too (and that's a big fucking if).

[DoctorFinger]

That story, nay parable, about Joe and the Flood is great. I always thought the people who constantly demand things from their God had it backwards.

[Generation ABXY]

Though I'm less concerned about the religious aspect, I do think the legal consequences of this bring up some interesting questions. Clearly this man was responsible for, and failed to adequately address, his child's wellbeing and that's what he is facing punishment for. That seems fair enough to me, but at what point is the government (or, as someone else said, anybody else aware of the situation) responsible? Do we have to respect the parent's judgment, even to the point of death? That doesn't seem very fair to the kid. If authorities had stepped in here, it doesn't seem like it would have infringed upon his religious beliefs in any way – he can still believe that God would have healed her eventually, even if he never got around to witnessing it this time. What if, instead of faith healing, the parents just disagree with the generally accepted treatment? IIRC, there was a story some time ago where a kid wanted to go the holistic route instead of getting traditional chemo therapy for his cancer, and the family was sued over it. Do they have any right to do that?

[Ox]

Do they have any right to do that?
Legally? Not as far as the examples you've given. Parents are generally accorded the position of authority over their children's medical care, of course, but there is a duty to seek and render aid for your child in distress (a notable exception to the general rule of no affirmative duties to others). For criminal liability, the parent must grossly deviate from the standards of reasonable people (i.e., judges and juries).

The religious angle doesn't really add that much to the analysis, because in the facts of these cases, it's simply been a question of "I think prayer will work better": so-called 'reasonable people' don't agree, so the parents' wishes are irrelevant. A more interesting question would be if some religion deemed the child irrevocably cut off from its community as a result of scientific intervention: as with Amish education, American courts are more reluctant to countenance majoritarianism where it threatens to extinguish a minority culture. Still, in life-or-death situations, few judges are really going to rule in the parents' favor.