Birthers

[Ink Asylum]

Birther: Someone convinced that Barack Obama wasn't born in Hawaii and thus isn't eligible to be President.

I wasn't going to make a topic about these nutjobs, but that was before we started having elected officials, particularly in Congress, starting to sound like they agree with their claims, or at least too dependent on their base to openly disagree. I just watched this video and it's hilarious what Congressmen will do to avoid giving a firm yes or no answer to the simple question: "Do you believe Barack Obama is a natural born citizen and eligible to serve as President of the United States?"

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I particularly enjoy the Congressman that literally started running away, only to have the questioner jog alongside him, complimenting his athleticism. Also, the one that went into the store and hung around looking at pens for 20 minutes as the questioner waited outside. Good for Trent Franks at the end for looking into the issue and believing in the evidence, and for openly stating so. It's a shame not all of his colleagues can do the same.

Fortunately, it appears that Congressional Republicans are only willing to go so far playing along with the Birthers. Today, Dem Rep. Neil Abercrombie of Hawaii introduced a resolution celebrating the 50th anniversary of Hawaii's inclusion in the United States, and it included language describing Hawaii as the birthplace of the 44th President. (http://theplumline.whorunsgov.com/president-obama/house-dem-putting-gopers-on-the-spot-by-introducing-measure-describing-hawaii-as-obamas-birthplace/)

“Far be it from us to try to stir things up,” [Abercrombie spokesperson] Helfert said puckishly. “The president was born there, so what are you gonna do? Not mention it?”

Michelle Bachmann, not surprisingly, tried to block the vote, but it went through anyway. Of the 378 Congressmen present, all voted Yea, including Bachmann. Good for them. I wonder if the pen-shopping Congressmen made it to the chamber in time...

[Ultima Thulian]

How bout we just take the "birthers" and the "truthers" (those bumbling idiots who think 9/11 was some sorta super conspiracy), and just get rid of them? Round 'em up, and toss them in the Atlantic, or something.

[Ink Asylum]

How bout we just take the "birthers" and the "truthers" (those bumbling idiots who think 9/11 was some sorta super conspiracy), and just get rid of them? Round 'em up, and toss them in the Atlantic, or something.

Nah, they're harmless. They only hurt themselves and they're amusing to watch.

[Ultima Thulian]

They're only amusing from a distance. Talk to one...or rather, wait till you get unlucky and mistakenly stumble upon one of these idiots. In five minutes, five fucking minutes, your brain cells will make like lemmings and jump off the proverbial cliff to find respite from the massive amount of suffering they endured.

They're a disease. And diseases can be infectious. Seriously, if I hear one more dood try to tell me "BUSH DID WTC OMG HAX!!1!1one" I will flip my collective shit. The birthers are just as annoying, but they're fairly new. 9/11 truthers have been around for far too long.

[National Kato]

I wasn't going to make a topic about these nutjobs...

Ink, you don't know how close I was to posting a bunch of shit about these idiots a week ago after seeing The Daily show respond (http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/wed-july-22-2009/the-born-identity). I had to rely on willpower, but it was close.

As I've said in another thread, the Lou Dobbs section towards the end is priceless with the 'Kenyan Prince Birth Announcement Scam.' Robert Gibbs said it well enough:

"Here's the deal. If I had some DNA, it wouldn't assuage those who don't believe he was born here," Gibbs also said.

[Ink Asylum]

Pretty much. There is no way to convince these people so you might as well let them run around and look like idiots in the eyes of sensible people.

[Generation ABXY]

I really hate all this Birther stuff, and I don't understand where it comes from. I mean, given that it crosses party lines, the catalyst doesn't seem to be political and, since I know a number of them (I've met a few Truthers, too, unfortunately), I'd be hard pressed to say it is blatant racism at work either.

Personally, I'm willing to accept that he (Obama) is a natural-born citizen and I don't think I've ever given it more than just a passing thought. However, it would seem a simple solution to this would just be to show the original birth certificate and be done with it. If I were being persecuted like this and saw an easy way out, I have to admit I'd probably take it.

EDIT: Also, don't we have a Truther among us? I thought I knew who it was, but I seem to be wrong and may be thinking of someone (or someplace) else...

[Telefrog]

EDIT: Also, don't we have a Truther among us? I thought I knew who it was, but I seem to be wrong and may be thinking of someone (or someplace) else...

God, I hope not. I try to see every issue from multiple viewpoints and make every effort to at least hear what reasoning people may have for a particular belief, but Birthers and Truthers just make me shut down immediately. I'd rather listen to a dog taking a healthy dump on my chest.

[Ink Asylum]

It crosses party lines? That's news to me. There may be a few Democrats who are Birthers but they are exceedingly rare. This is at least 99% Republican fringe behavior.

As for why Obama isn't trying to put this to rest, two reasons:

1. He can't do any more. Hawaii discarded all their paper birth certificates when they computerized their records. The certificate of live birth that was released during the 2008 campaign is all there is. Hawaii officials have confirmed his status. There are birth announcements in two Hawaii newspapers.

2. Even if he could do more why should he? He has satisfied everyone he needs to in order to do his job and more. Everyone who is clamoring for more proof wouldn't be satisfied with a birth certificate, they'd call it a fake. They wouldn't be satisfied with a doctor's testimonial claiming he delivered Obama, they'd say he was paid off.

Trying to satisfy the demands of those who are predisposed to disbelieve you is like arguing with forum trolls. It doesn't shut them up and it makes you look worse.

[Ox]

I once read an article that suggested conspiracy theorists are really engaged in gnosticism: the belief that there's a special body of knowledge to which only they are privy to. If you have this special knowledge -- be it the truth about 9/11, the Kennedy assassination, or the birthplace of our President -- this makes you part of a select elite. It doesn't matter how much of a loser you appear to be at work or home, because everyone else is sheeple and you alone Really Know the Truth.

There's an interesting parallel with a religion/wildly violent gang known as the "Five Percenters." They split off from the Nation of Islam a few decades ago, and their name comes from their belief about the distribution of knowledge and divinity: 85% of people are dupes, 10% are controlling the dupes, and 5% know the score and are therefore Gods, granted the power of life and death over all the rest. Their literature hysterically notes that "these numbers are approximate."

[Shrinn]

sheeple

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/sheeple.png

[Ink Asylum]

That homeless looking guy with the big piece of cardboard in the video seems like a Five Percenter. He sure doesn't make them look good, though.

[Johan]

People buy into secretive conspiracies all the time. (http://www.colonyofgamers.com/cogforums/showthread.php?t=10515)

That's just...people. Human nature, if you will.

[Generation ABXY]

It crosses party lines? That's news to me. There may be a few Democrats who are Birthers but they are exceedingly rare. This is at least 99% Republican fringe behavior.

Oh, I didn't realize you'd done a poll of them all. I personally hadn't, but as Democrats have espoused the theory – hell, one of the major lawsuits was filed by one, IIRC – it filled at least the basic criteria for me to say “it crosses party lines” (by, you know, crossing party lines). Of course, now that I know...

As for why Obama isn't trying to put this to rest, two reasons:

1. He can't do any more. Hawaii discarded all their paper birth certificates when they computerized their records. The certificate of live birth that was released during the 2008 campaign is all there is. Hawaii officials have confirmed his status. There are birth announcements in two Hawaii newspapers.

2. Even if he could do more why should he? He has satisfied everyone he needs to in order to do his job and more. Everyone who is clamoring for more proof wouldn't be satisfied with a birth certificate, they'd call it a fake. They wouldn't be satisfied with a doctor's testimonial claiming he delivered Obama, they'd say he was paid off.

Trying to satisfy the demands of those who are predisposed to disbelieve you is like arguing with forum trolls. It doesn't shut them up and it makes you look worse.

I suppose those are all things to consider. As I said, it doesn't much matter to me one way or the other, but it would probably drive me nuts were I in the same position.

[Ink Asylum]

Oh, I didn't realize you'd done a poll of them all. I personally hadn't, but as Democrats have espoused the theory – hell, one of the major lawsuits was filed by one, IIRC – it filled at least the basic criteria for me to say “it crosses party lines” (by, you know, crossing party lines). Of course, now that I know...

Under that criteria you can pretty much say everything crosses party lines, even if it's only one Democrat amongst a million Republicans. Sometimes a party just has to own their crazies. The Democrats have their fair share of crazies, but Birthers aren't prominent amongst them.

I suppose those are all things to consider. As I said, it doesn't much matter to me one way or the other, but it would probably drive me nuts were I in the same position.

In what position? Being President and having some nutjobs yapping about how you're not really a citizen? You'd know the truth, and you're the fucking President! You need a thick skin for that job. If you get obsessed with your enemies, no matter how insignificant, you're just going to wind up ultra paranoid and distracted.

A good piece of advice for someone in a position of power is to not punch down. Don't engage your detractors just because they annoy you. It rarely shuts them up and more often elevates their influence because now you're acknowledging the issue. Obama is playing this just right. He doesn't say and, for all anyone can see, he's completely cool about it. That kind of confidence speaks volumes. Meanwhile, the conspiracy nuts marginalize themselves by acting crazy and drag down other Republicans that either agree with them or don't want to piss them off.

It's win-win for Obama. There's no way more than the fringe is going to buy into this theory, and a snowball's chance in hell that he'll be removed from office over it, so why not let the Birthers implode?

[Johan]

A good piece of advice for someone in a position of power is to not punch down.

That is good advice! He should have followed it.

[BlackPete]

I suppose those are all things to consider. As I said, it doesn't much matter to me one way or the other, but it would probably drive me nuts were I in the same position.

The governor of Hawaii himself confirmed Obama's birth certificate. He's a Republican.

Hell, even Ann freaking Coulter (http://www.freedomslighthouse.com/2009/07/ann-coulter-says-obamas-birth.html) agrees that this is a non-issue.

The birthers are a lost cause. Why waste any more time on them?

[Slack3r78]

The fact that this is still getting air time and discussion is just another symptom of how our media is completely rotten from the inside out.

[Johan]

The fact that this is still getting air time and discussion is just another symptom of how our media is completely rotten from the inside out.

Actually, I would say it just confirms how much of an echo-chamber our traditional media are. It's a ridiculous non-story. It's mind-boggling that they would all continue to report on it. There are, after all, just a few other important things happening around the nation and world.

[Generation ABXY]

Under that criteria you can pretty much say everything crosses party lines, even if it's only one Democrat amongst a million Republicans. Sometimes a party just has to own their crazies. The Democrats have their fair share of crazies, but Birthers aren't prominent amongst them.

Unfortunately, a lot of things do cross party lines, despite an attempt to slap a partisan label on it. I'm not saying a majority of the Birthers aren't Republican, I just don't think the difference is nearly as large as you make it out to be.

[ShivaX]

Unfortunately, a lot of things do cross party lines, despite an attempt to slap a partisan label on it. I'm not saying a majority of the Birthers aren't Republican, I just don't think the difference is nearly as large as you make it out to be.

Well I think its probably somewhat safe to say there are two kinds of Birthers:

Racists and Republicans.

Any Democrats that are firm Birthers are probably racists.
And Republicans that fall into the category aren't neccessarily racist, just stupid.

[DoctorFinger]

The Birthers believe with all their hearts that Obama could not under any circumstances have been elected without some Illuminati-like conspiracy pulling the strings. So they have to design the conspiracy.

Oh, and there is someone most of us have been in contact with who is a Truther/Birther. He's the reason we're here now...

[Ink Asylum]

Who? EvilAvatar?

I really wish I could find a transcript of Jon Stewart's smackdown of Dobbs and the most radical of the Birthers, the ones that believe Obama is some kind of Muslim Manchurian candidate. Because the best way to sneak in a puppet President is to start with a black baby with a Kenyan father named Barack Hussein Obama born before the end of the Civil Rights movement. Brilliant!

[Generation ABXY]

Oh, and there is someone most of us have been in contact with who is a Truther/Birther. He's the reason we're here now...

It was Ink? O.o

EDIT: Ah, EvAv, that makes more sense.

[DoctorFinger]

Who? EvilAvatar?

I really wish I could find a transcript of Jon Stewart's smackdown of Dobbs and the most radical of the Birthers, the ones that believe Obama is some kind of Muslim Manchurian candidate. Because the best way to sneak in a puppet President is to start with a black baby with a Kenyan father named Barack Hussein Obama born before the end of the Civil Rights movement. Brilliant!Don't forget, that they invented a time machine to go back to 1950whenever and put Obama's birth announcement in 2 different newspapers!

[ClannerDelta]

Don't forget, that they invented a time machine to go back to 1950whenever and put Obama's birth announcement in 2 different newspapers!

No need for a time machine. Just a Magic PC.

[National Kato]

I really wish I could find a transcript of Jon Stewart's smackdown of Dobbs and the most radical of the Birthers,

You mean the 'Kenyan Prince Birth Announcement Scam? (http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/wed-july-22-2009/the-born-identity)' :D

[Generation ABXY]

Any Democrats that are firm Birthers are probably racists.

See, I ruled that out because I know a pair of black, democratic Birthers and just assumed there must be more. :p

Then again, I don't know that his partner is technically a Birther - he believes that Obama's mother renounced his citizenship or something. Anyone else run across that theory?

[Ink Asylum]

Wow. Out of curiousity I peeked into EvilAvatar's P&R forum and they have a full-on Birther posting there. Neat!

[Slack3r78]

Oh, and there is someone most of us have been in contact with who is a Truther/Birther. He's the reason we're here now...
Intellectual midgetry has pretty much always been his specialty.

[Ultima Thulian]

Before I came here, I got back on the forums in a lame attempt to sell my Wii (which I didn't do, thankfully...as soon as I decided to get ready to sell the damn thing, good games started coming out for it). Tried PiRi first, but it was dead. Went back to EvAv...and man...it's kinda sad. Not very big anymore, and very few, if any of the original posters there. Only one guy I recognized was around. Managed to have a small discussion going and thought it would be time find a good forum, cause EvAv wasn't it. Hence me coming here. :)

And did check out the Political forum there before I came here...sweet jesus...it's BAD.

[ShivaX]

And did check out the Political forum there before I came here...sweet jesus...it's BAD.

I like how I can look at threads from the last month and theres TWO of them.

One is a Birther post (where Obama is referred to as O douche bag in almost every post).

The other is a thread about Pelosi and if the CIA told her anything that actually died back in June but got thread necro'd and turned into talking about Sun Chips (followed by people blatantly calling each other names).

[Generation ABXY]

....sun chips? As in the snack food?

[TheKeck]

....sun chips?
You are startled by the subject matter or...... you don't know what sun chips are? :eek:

Nevermind. :)

[ShivaX]

....sun chips?

No idea. The thread about Pelosi got derailed at some point and turned into an abortion thread (didn't see how) and someone posted a month after it had died that his life began when he ate Salsa Sun Chips or somesuch.

Then people called each other names and stopped posting, that was early in the month apparently.

[Generation ABXY]

Damn, that was quick, Keck; I meant the former, and I was clearing that up apparently as you made that post.

[TheKeck]

I'm like... a ninja. Yeah... a ninja. I wonder if anyone has thought of that comparison before? :D

[National Kato]

Maybe all the idiocy will die down a bit (at least in our hallowed government halls) now that the House Resolution commemorating Hawaii's 50th anniversary (http://www.salon.com/politics/war_room/2009/07/27/hawaii_resolution/index.html) - and naming Hawaii President Obama's birthstate - has passed unanimously. (http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2009/roll647.xml)

[Johan]

Wow. Out of curiousity I peeked into EvilAvatar's P&R forum and they have a full-on Birther posting there. Neat!

I tried an intervention, but it failed.

Maybe all the idiocy will die down a bit (at least in our hallowed government halls) now that the House Resolution commemorating Hawaii's 50th anniversary (http://www.salon.com/politics/war_room/2009/07/27/hawaii_resolution/index.html) - and naming Hawaii President Obama's birthstate - has passed unanimously. (http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2009/roll647.xml)

Passed unanimously? Wait a second...I thought the Republican Party was where all the crazies went. Where did they actually go?

Oh, yeah...now I remember where they went. :D

[BlackPete]

Some more classic Birther quotes: (http://wonkette.com/410150/wingnut-national-review-enrages-wingnuts-by-calling-birther-conspiracy-a-bunch-of-nonsense)


# I actually don’t care where he was born as he is not a “natural born citizen” since his father was Kenyan.

# Gibbs said yesterday obama was a citizen; He did not say he was a ‘natural born’ citizen.

# it is all part of the same web of lies that the POSOTUS is fabricating. This Kenyan buttwipe needs to realize he may or may not be legaly the president….but if he tries to touch the constitution with his criminal touch (he did promise to obey and protect and follow the constitution) he will be in a world of hurt….and wind up losing states to secession, and where that will follow.

# Hey! We have all been screaming for the msm (controlled media) to get onboard on the BC story—so here it is! They all want a piece of the pie now—didja think they were going to take the Patriot side of the issue? Fat chance—they are just going to cloud the issue even further now. The state gubmint in Hawaii is going to glorify him now. At least Rush and Glenn Beck are spelling the truth out to the American people now (not We The People—the wee sheeple), on other issues that is. On the other hand, GB has not attacked the real issues lately—that I have heard anyway—y’know, the BC issue, of course, and those “camps”, ML, etc. Who knowa? perhaps he too will wake up…???


The GOP can't seem to get rid of these guys.

[ShivaX]

Some more classic Birther quotes: (http://wonkette.com/410150/wingnut-national-review-enrages-wingnuts-by-calling-birther-conspiracy-a-bunch-of-nonsense)



The GOP can't seem to get rid of these guys.

I'm terrified of the person who thinks that Glenn Beck just isn't crazy enough.

[Inspector Fowler]

Nah, they're harmless. They only hurt themselves and they're amusing to watch.

We have AM 1360, the American Freedom network, in my area. I listen to them a lot. I love it. Seriously, it's better than stand up comedy.

[Narradisall]

I have a question. Since I'm not so hot on electoral procedure in the US.

Do you have to be a natural born citizen to be president? I only ask as Arnold Schwarzenegger was born in Austria yet still became Governer. Does the rule only apply to Presidential position, or are there ways round it?

[nnanji]

No person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any Person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty-five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States.

Yes you do. The Govenator can not become the Presidnator.

[Narradisall]

It's only for the Presidential office though? That last bit about Age of thirty-five years etc threw me a bit. Silly Ye'Olde English made it sound like as long as you'd been a resident 14 years prior to your 35th birthday you could be.

[Johan]

I'm terrified of the person who thinks that Glenn Beck just isn't crazy enough.

I could hardly believe the promotional clips for his "comedy show" when I went to the movies several times this summer. I was stunned.

I'm so glad I don't have cable/satellite. It's like allowing a flood of stupid in your home just to get at a little bit of gold. I miss the gold, but man...the stupidity is stupefying. :(

[Voodoo]

It's only for the Presidential office though? That last bit about Age of thirty-five years etc threw me a bit. Silly Ye'Olde English made it sound like as long as you'd been a resident 14 years prior to your 35th birthday you could be.
You must be 35 and have lived at least 14 years as a resident in the USA. So, yes, that would be 14 years prior and including your 35th.

[nnanji]

It's only for the Presidential office though? That last bit about Age of thirty-five years etc threw me a bit. Silly Ye'Olde English made it sound like as long as you'd been a resident 14 years prior to your 35th birthday you could be.

Yes, the part about being a natural born citizen only applies to the office of President. To become a member of the House you need only have been a citizen of the US for 7 years, 25 years old, and to be a citizen of the state you are running for. To be a Senator you need to be 30 years old, a citizen for 9 years, and a citizen of the state for which you are running. Arnold could become a Senator or Representative of California if he wanted.

[Telefrog]

I could hardly believe the promotional clips for his "comedy show" when I went to the movies several times this summer. I was stunned.

I'm so glad I don't have cable/satellite. It's like allowing a flood of stupid in your home just to get at a little bit of gold. I miss the gold, but man...the stupidity is stupefying. :(

Oh, God! Those ads were really horrible.

Even worse were the "A Tribute To Moms" ads at the theater for Dr. Laura's special Mother's Day show. Yes, Dr. Laura should totally be the person honoring mothers. :mad:

[BlackPete]

Jason Hommel is offering a $100,000 reward (http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=105271) to prove that Obama is a natural born citizen.

My prediction: Noone will ever collect that reward.

[Voodoo]

Jason Hommel is offering a $100,000 reward (http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=105271) to prove that Obama is a natural born citizen.

My prediction: Noone will ever collect that reward.
His requirement of proof would be a bit of work to attain...
Please prove that Obama is a 'natural born' US citizen, and put to rest the claims in lawsuits, as wnd.com reports, 'that include contentions Obama was born in Kenya, wasn't a 'natural born' citizen because of his father's Kenyan citizenship, was a dual citizen and that his mother wasn't old enough to transmit citizenship at birth. In addition, his citizenship is clouded by his move as a child to Indonesia and apparent adoption by an Indonesian citizen who married his mother.
...but I don't believe it would be impossible. For $100K, that's quite an offer. Hell, if I were Obama I'd present the proof and collect on the cash. LOL! The website doesn't say that he is ineligible to provide the proof himself.

[Telefrog]

Jason Hommel is offering a $100,000 reward (http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=105271) to prove that Obama is a natural born citizen.

My prediction: Noone will ever collect that reward.

Of course no one will ever be able to claim it. Not when you dismiss every piece of evidence as a fabrication or a lie.

I've actually heard this from someone: "You think those newspaper birth announcements from 1961 prove anything? Have they found anyone that remembers reading or writing those announcements? You know why they haven't? It's because those articles are fakes! They were never published in 1961." You can't argue against that kind of idiocy.

[ShivaX]

http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-videos/229638/july-28-2009/womb-raiders---the-fight-for-the-truth-behind-obama-s-birth

http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-videos/229691/july-28-2009/womb-raiders---orly-taitz

[alienmastermind]

Currently, every Republican voted for the 'Celebrate Hawaii's Statehood' Bill (Don't remember the number)...which in its wording states that our President was born there.

Huh. /Malcolm Reynolds.

[J Arcane]

It's only for the Presidential office though? That last bit about Age of thirty-five years etc threw me a bit. Silly Ye'Olde English made it sound like as long as you'd been a resident 14 years prior to your 35th birthday you could be.
It's awkwardly phrased, like much of the constitution, writers were horrid back then.

Basically what it is generally interpreted to mean is that if you were living in the colonies for at least 14 years and declared citizen with the newly formed US prior to the penning and ratification of the Constitution, you could still be President even though you weren't "natural born" to it, because at that point almost no one was, at least, no one old enough to hold office.

This portion is pretty much moot at this point of course, because no man or woman alive predates a 200+ year old document at this point, which means the only remaining relevant qualifiers are "natural born citizen" and "35 years old".

[Doogie2K]

It's awkwardly phrased, like much of the constitution, writers were horrid back then.

Basically what it is generally interpreted to mean is that if you were living in the colonies for at least 14 years and declared citizen with the newly formed US prior to the penning and ratification of the Constitution, you could still be President even though you weren't "natural born" to it, because at that point almost no one was, at least, no one old enough to hold office.

This portion is pretty much moot at this point of course, because no man or woman alive predates a 200+ year old document at this point, which means the only remaining relevant qualifiers are "natural born citizen" and "35 years old".

I don't think it's "bad writing" so much as 230-year-old English, presumably couched in the traditions of legalese from that era. The language has evolved a wee bit since then, though maybe the legalese less so.

I take the fourteen-year bit to also include people born in the US (and thus natural-born citizens) who moved away as children. You still need to have lived in the US at least fourteen years of your life (and presumably your adult life...do childhood years count as time being a capital-R Resident?) to be eligible to run.

[National Kato]

It's awkwardly phrased, like much of the constitution, writers were horrid back then.

Yeah, but literacy was off the charts... ;)

[J Arcane]

Yeah, but literacy was off the charts... ;)
Well sure, when your census consists solely of rich, landed, collegiate males, the numbers are bound to be strong. ;)

[Johan]

Yeah, but literacy was off the charts... ;)

Argh. Well done. I even got a laugh out of that one, and I don't laugh. Ever. :D

[Narradisall]

Yeah, but literacy was off the charts... ;)

lol, having read the other thread that was well played.

Fair enough, all I need to do to be your president is travel back in time, become 16 again, become a US citizen then climb to the top.

hey, if Obama faked it, why can't I?

Also I love the logic of finding someone thast read those paper articles, because I don't know about you guys, but I certainly memorize every newspaper article birth just in case that knowledge is handy at some point....

[Slack3r78]

Glenn Beck you say?

m9JE5SBm9UU

God, I love Shep Smith.

[Johan]

I listened to about ten minutes of Beck on XM/Fox News while driving today, out of morbid curiosity, and I have to say that the first thing I thought was that he sounded like someone who was posting on a forum.

So...I've insulted myself, I suppose, but he/I deserve it, I think.

Then I changed the station to the suicide channel, and drove off a bridge. :D

[Ultima Thulian]

Glenn Beck you say?

m9JE5SBm9UU

God, I love Shep Smith.

Thanks for that...it was pretty awesome. I'm not familiar with Shep, but I'm watching some of his shit on youtube and he's proving to be great. He's essentially a professional troll that is really good at it. I dig it.

This I like.

PHKzS5Zl6mY

edit: And why is there a 360 in the "Strategy Room"? :p

[J Arcane]

Where the hell did they find that guy, and how the fuck did he get allowed on FOX? That is way too much balls and irreverence for that Red State of Murdoch to ever allow.

[Ultima Thulian]

I know! So far, every vid I found of him pretty much involves him trolling someone for big lulz. And he does it both ways too...left or right. I'm not saying I agree with this guy on anything, but I am saying, thus far, he's proving to be entertaining.

[National Kato]

Have you heard this one? (http://crooksandliars.com/david-neiwert/goldberg-oreilly-birther-theory-its)

Apparently, Bernie Goldberg thinks the whole Birther issue is being drawn out by the 'Chicago Mafia inside the White House' in order to make conservatives look bad.

I have a theory. And the theory is this: That the Chicago Mafia inside the White House want to keep this crazy controversy going. Because the longer it goes, the better the chance that they will conflate the crazy right-wing fringe with regular conservatives and regular Republicans.

[Ink Asylum]

I do agree that the more mainstream the conspiracy gets the worse it looks for the Republican Party, but I don't think that's why Obama isn't responding.

[BlackPete]

Welp... the Hawaii resolution passed unianimously with a vote of 378-0. (http://thinkprogress.org/2009/07/27/obama-resolution-hawaii-378-0/) On top of that, the GOP bosses are finally starting to crack down (http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2009/07/republicans-stepping-away-from-the-birthers.php) on the birthers. This includes Bill O'Reilly!

Last night on his TV show, Bill O'Reilly comprehensively debunked the Birthers:

O'Reilly said to a letter-writer who declared himself not convinced that Obama is an American: "That is because you don't want to be convinced, Larry." That's as good a summary of the Birthers' motivations as any other.

You know you must be REALLY insane if you got Bill O'Reilly, Ann Coulter, and Michelle Malkin (http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=OGY0OTgxYWYzYTJmOTVjODhjYWFmZDQ0ZWQzMzFhYzQ=) to all say you're nuts.

[Slack3r78]

LOL @ "Chicago Mafia"

That said, letting the Republicans hang themselves by letting the crazies take the spotlight is pretty inline with the administration's general style so far.

[Generation ABXY]

We're not letting them take the spotlight - people are giving it to them. Believe me, if there was a reasonable way to stop either party involved, I'd take it. :p

[Ultima Thulian]

Wait wait...so Bernie thinks the conspiracy about Obama's birth is actually another conspiracy to make Republicans seem crazy? The conspiracy is actually a conspiracy! ::rolleseyes::

[ShivaX]

We're not letting them take the spotlight - people are giving it to them. Believe me, if there was a reasonable way to stop either party involved, I'd take it. :p

Well the problem often times with fringe elements in both parties is that noone denounces them quickly enough. Of course thats a fine line as well since once you acknowledge them you're giving them more creedance than they probably deserve in the first place.

And of course it only takes one "influential" person in either group that agrees with it to paint the whole party as crazy.

The other problem right now with the GOP is their lack of clear leadership. To a lot of people Limbaugh is all but the spokesperson for the party and the cowardice shown by the actual Republican leadership when it comes to denouncing Rush is fairly appalling. Since Rush is a fucking Birther (http://mediamatters.org/mmtv/200907200028) its going to taint the whole party until they finally distance themselves from him. Of course, everyone is scared to do that because they don't want to offend the base (but honestly its not like these people are going to vote Democrat, so I say fuck them).

The biggest problem the GOP faces, imo, is that they let television talking heads have influence. Olbermann is crazy, but you don't see the Dems giving a flying fuck what he says. When Rush complains about what the Chairman of the Fucking Republican Party says, the man is on the phone apologizing. Thats fucking stupid.

[BlackPete]

FactCheck.org has touched the actual birth certificate. (http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/born_in_the_usa.html).

[ShivaX]

FactCheck.org has touched the actual birth certificate. (http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/born_in_the_usa.html).

Ah but you see its not the original because Hawaii is in on it.

I really wish I was making that up. (http://mediamatters.org/research/200907170039
)

[Ink Asylum]

I was a bit distressed this week as Andrew Sullivan dipped his toe into Birther waters. I disagree with Andrew on a lot but he's one of the few conservative-leaning bloggers I can stand. He's very open to criticism and regularly posts e-mails that dissent with his own posts.

For most of the week he was engaging in what I call "Birther-Lite," which is when someone says "I don't personally believe that Obama was born in Kenya, but he should just show his original birth certificate to put things to rest. Why is he not doing that?" That same kind of reasoning is what Lou Dobbs has been pushing and is used by several of the Congressmen in the video I posted early to keep the conspiracy theory going without committing to it.

Thankfully, after many of his readers pointed him to not only FactCheck's research on the subject, but also numerous other respected people that have seen the CoLB and/or the original BC he admitted that he had gone too far.

[Generation ABXY]

Ah, yes. Rush is another person - Birther or not - who I wish would go away. Sadly, I've no power to make him...yet. :p

[Ox]

I was a bit distressed this week as Andrew Sullivan dipped his toe into Birther waters. I disagree with Andrew on a lot but he's one of the few conservative-leaning bloggers I can stand. He's very open to criticism and regularly posts e-mails that dissent with his own posts.

Well, obviously. Sullivan almost never says anything with which you disagree. It's pretty easy to tolerate someone who claims to be from a different end of the political spectrum but agrees with you all the time.

[Ink Asylum]

I've been following him for years and disagree with him plenty. Don't presume to know my entire spectrum of opinions and how that matches to someone else because of some forum threads.

[Slack3r78]

I like Sullivan for the most part, but he definitely has a tendency to jump on insane bandwagons at times. Let's not forget that he was one of the leading proponents of the Trig-is-really-Bristol's-baby nonsense.

[Ink Asylum]

Yup. And he approaches it the same way he dabbled with the Birther nonsense. "I don't believe Trig isn't Palin's daughter, but why doesn't she release evidence to prove he is to clear everything up?"

[Ink Asylum]

He hasn't posted it on his site yet, but Kos from DailyKos tweeted the results of a poll he had conducted on the Birther issue through the non-partisan polling firm R2K. Here are the results:

R2K poll: Was Obama born in US? Yes/No/Not sure:
Dem 93/4/3
Ind 83/8/9
GOP 42/28/30.
NE 93/4/3
South 47/23/30
Midwest 90/6/4
West 87/7/6

Over a quarter of the Republican Party doesn't believe Obama was born in the US and another third aren't sure. Not as bad for the Republicans as the Truther numbers posted in the CT thread are for Dems, but nothing to be proud of either.

Before anyone tries to dismiss the poll because it was funded by DailyKos, the firm that conducted the poll is recognized as non-partisan and their polling during last year's election season was much closer to the actual results of the election than many other pollsters like Rasmussen.

[Telefrog]

From the same poll:

The conspiracy has a regional flavor. Overall, even including Democrats and independents, only 47 percent of respondents in the South said they believed Obama was born in America, with 23 percent saying he was not and 30 percent saying they were unsure. In the Northeast and Midwest, the percentage of respondents who believe Obama was born in the U.S. was over 90 percent.

Not unexpected, but sad. I maintain that the Birther argument is just racism couched in publicly acceptable language. By saying Obama is a foreigner by birth and Constitutionally unable to serve, Birthers get around having to admit that they just don't want a non-white as President.

[Ink Asylum]

Here's a chart showing that regional difference:

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/birthers.png

[roboninja]

I hear a banjo playing...

[Shrinn]

Here's a chart showing that regional difference:


Holy crap. That's a much bigger difference than I expected.

[ShivaX]

Holy crap. That's a much bigger difference than I expected.

Honestly, thats about what I expected.

[Ox]

Does that mean racism isn't a problem outside the South?

[National Kato]

Does that mean racism isn't a problem outside the South?

People typically think Southerners are more racist, less intelligent, and slower than their Northern brethren. I disagree to generalizations like that, having lived for over 10 years in both regions and seeing my fair share of racism and stupidity, but when you look at results like those that chart represents, it's hard not to think that perhaps Southerners are latching on to the Birther issue as a means to show their discomfort with a non-white president. I can't imagine it's just all the Southerners who voted for McCain or other candidates jumping on board because they're still upset over losing.

Or do you think Southerners aren't as informed? Maybe less trustful? I think any of these comparisons stand on shaky ground. But for the sake of discussion, let's say that the chart is factual and precise: why do you think Southerners are more likely to believe President Obama is not a U.S. citizen?

[Generation ABXY]

Why do you think Southerners are more likely to believe President Obama is not a U.S. citizen?

Maybe they're not, maybe they're just more honest about it. ;)

[Doogie2K]

I hear a banjo playing...

You looking for this?

Uzae_SqbmDE

[Ox]

Or do you think Southerners aren't as informed? Maybe less trustful? I think any of these comparisons stand on shaky ground. But for the sake of discussion, let's say that the chart is factual and precise: why do you think Southerners are more likely to believe President Obama is not a U.S. citizen?
I'm not certain. But if you accept that racism is the only conceivable explanation for Birtherism, then you have a problem: why aren't more Northerners, Westerners, and Midwesterners Birthers? You've already said that there is racism outside of the South, yet Birtherism seems to be virtually nonexistent in those places. Even if I were to concede that every Birther is a racist (which I do only arguendo), clearly there is some other factor at work as well.

I've lived briefly lived in Virginia (whether you think Virginia counts as the North or the South reveals a lot about you). If anything, I thought Southerners were both more informed and more trustful than people from the North. The one exception, however, was a sharp strain of distrust of the bicoastal elite. I don't know if that's the cause of the discrepancy, but it might be.

[Johan]

I thought Southerners were both more informed and more trustful than people from the North. The one exception, however, was a sharp strain of distrust of the bicoastal elite.

This man speaks the truth. I, for one, would like a divorce.

As much as it would pain me so...

[Ink Asylum]

Well, Obama is seen as an "elite" by Republicans. Even Clinton avoided that stereotype. But I doubt Birther nonsense is anti-elitism. I do think there is a heavy component of "otherism," if you don't want to use the racism label. Race aside, his father was a foreigner and a Muslim, and Obama spent years abroad as a child. Even if Obama's Birth Certificate were on display in front of the White House, those elements of his background are enough to make a significant portion of the electorate nervous. If they didn't have the Birth Certificate issue to rally around we'd probably be hearing more about how Obama is secretly a Muslim and terrorist sympathizer.

[BlackPete]

Eric Cantor says that birthers are the liberals' fault. No, really (http://theplumline.whorunsgov.com/president-obama/eric-cantor-rips-chris-matthews-msnbc-huffpo-liberal-bloggers-for-pushing-birther-story/):

“Mr. Cantor doesn’t question the President’s citizenship, but he has serious questions about the President’s push for government controlled healthcare, taxes on small business job creators, and a huge energy tax on middle class families. He finds it ironic that those most eager to talk about the President’s citizenship are in fact some of his biggest cheerleaders–whether it’s Chris Matthews or others on MSNBC, the Huffington Post, or camera toting liberal bloggers chasing people through the streets of Washington.”

It's ALWAYS the liberals fault! You fools should've realized that by now. :D

[Shrinn]

So last night (technically early this morning) after a particularly long tabletop gaming session, SpockRocket and I were making fun of O rly Titz's name. It's hilarious and you know it.

This led to the discovery that I was in the presence of a birther. The following conversation took place.

"Here's a scan of the certificate of live birth"
"Nope, photoshopped"
"Fair enough, here's factcheck.org saying that they checked and doubled checked and touched the birth certificate"
"Why does Obama keep ignoring the problem? Why can't he just say "Hey, here's my birth certificiate"?

[BlackPete]

OK this Orly woman is hilarious: (http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=105764)

California attorney Orly Taitz, who has filed a number of lawsuits demanding proof of Barack Obama's eligibility to serve as president, has released a copy of what purports to be a Kenyan certification of birth and has filed a new motion in U.S. District Court for its authentication.

The document lists Obama's parents as Barack Hussein Obama and Stanley Ann Obama, formerly Stanley Ann Dunham, the birth date as Aug. 4, 1961, and the hospital of birth as Coast General Hospital in Mombasa, Kenya.

Taitz told WND that the document came from an anonymous source who doesn't want his name known because "he's afraid for his life."

And here's a photo of a part of that document:

http://www.wnd.com/images/misc/kenyandocument-bottom.jpg

Notice that bit at the bottom about Republic of Kenya? OK now some things to consider:

1) Kenya didn't become a republic until December 1964 (http://mediamatters.org/blog/200908030001) (later than the signing date of this document).
2) Mombasa wasn't a part of Kenya until 1963. It was originally a part of Zanzibar. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mombasa)
3) Finally, even assuming this document was real, why did it take 3 years to make a birth certificate?
4) If we ignore the above points, AND assume this document is real, then this document itself confirms that his mother was an 18 year old American. Thus, location of birth is irrelevant.

EDIT: Citations added.

[Ox]

If we ignore the above points, AND assume this document is real, then this document itself confirms that his mother was an 18 year old American. Thus, location of birth is irrelevant.
Far be it from me to endorse any aspect of Birtherism, but I believe you are mistaken about this. The test for whether an American parent's child is a citizen (assuming the birth did not take place on US soil) isn't purely an age issue. Mrs. Obama would have had to live for ten years (http://travel.state.gov/law/info/info_609.html) in the States, including five years after her fourteenth birthday, in order to pass on American citizenship to her child automatically. I'm not that familiar with her biography, but I believe she did not qualify.

EDIT: Very interestingly, if the President had been born out-of-wedlock, Birtherism would be even harder to sustain. Out-of-wedlock births to American mothers automatically qualify for citizenship so long as she spent at least a solid year in the States at some point in her life.

[Ultima Thulian]

http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o110/ultima13/MEMES/orly.gif

[BlackPete]

Far be it from me to endorse any aspect of Birtherism, but I believe you are mistaken about this. The test for whether an American parent's child is a citizen (assuming the birth did not take place on US soil) isn't purely an age issue. Mrs. Obama would have had to live for ten years (http://travel.state.gov/law/info/info_609.html) in the States, including five years after her fourteenth birthday, in order to pass on American citizenship to her child automatically. I'm not that familiar with her biography, but I believe she did not qualify.

EDIT: Very interestingly, if the President had been born out-of-wedlock, Birtherism would be even harder to sustain. Out-of-wedlock births to American mothers automatically qualify for citizenship so long as she spent at least a solid year in the States at some point in her life.

Hmm I hadn't known that bit about being required to live in the US five years after the age of fourteen. All I knew was that Obama's mother lived in the US her entire life before meeting Obama's father according to this TIME article (http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1729524-3,00.html).

That's a pretty interesting aspect of the law though -- it basically sets the minimum age at 19 years old for a birth abroad.

It probably doesn't matter in the end as it's all a lie and a part of the conspiracy to the birthers.

[Ink Asylum]

The Twitter is afire with conservatives retweeting this document. It will be even more amusing when it blows up in their faces. I wonder if Lou Dobbs will talk about this.

[Ink Asylum]

Some quickfire red flags from a couple different places. Some might be more damning than others, and some might have reasonable explanations, so take each with a grain of salt.


The hospital is Coast Provincial General Hospital (sometimes said to be Coast Province General Hospital), not Coast General Hospital.
Kenya was a Dominion the date this certificate was allegedly issued and would not become a republic for 8 months.
Mombasa belonged to Zanzibar when Obama was born, not Kenya.
Obama's father's village would be nearer to Nairobi, not Mombasa.
The number 47O44-- 47 is Obama's age when he became president, followed by the letter O (not a zero) followed by 44--he is the 44th president.
EF Lavender is a laundry detergent.
Would a nation with a large number of Muslims actually say "Christian name" (as opposed to name) on the birth certificate?
His father (born in 1961) would have been 24 or 25 when he was born and not 26.
It was called the "Central Nyanza District," not Nyanza Province. The regions were changed to provinces in 1970.
This piece of paper certainly looks nice and new to be 45 years old -- unless the Kenyans were using acid-free paper back in 1964.
Officials of Coast Province General Hospital reported: “We do not have computerized records going back to the 1960’s and can only sort through our archives by hand,” Dr. Christopher Mwanga, an administrator at the Mombasa hospital tells GLOBE. “We have searched for all the names of babies born on Aug. 4, 1961, and have not found the name of Barack Hussein Obama. That is all I can tell you.”

[Johan]

Please make it all go away. :facepalm:

[National Kato]

Forget the Birthers, the new hotness is the proof that Barack Obama was named by Jesus Christ as the anti-Christ. (http://crooksandliars.com/david-neiwert/people-who-brought-you-birthers-obam)

Produce a certificate on that, Barry!

:D

[Telefrog]

The Twitter is afire with conservatives retweeting this document. It will be even more amusing when it blows up in their faces. I wonder if Lou Dobbs will talk about this.

It will be especially delicious when people figure out that it originated as an SA Goon stunt.

[digitalErich]

They were right (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/uganda/5968129/First-baby-rhino-born-in-Uganda-in-28-years-is-named-Obama.html)

[Telefrog]

This guy (http://vault-co.blogspot.com/) is ruining Fallout.

It's so obvious. His race is listed as AFRICAN. That's such a glaring anachronism it stands out like a sore thumb and it is absolute proof it was forged in the last few years if not the last few months.

In 1961 a man's race would have been listed as NEGRO. "Africans" were not a racial classification in 1961!!! Nobody would have listed his father as "AFRICAN" in 1961, it would've been ludicrous!!!

Even his phony "birth announcement" is a fake. Everything about the guy is fake. His whole life is a sorry fake.

Just for the record, when I saw the first WTC fall, I thought terrorists must have planted a bomb in it to coincide with the plane hitting it. When I saw the second one fall in the exact same way, straight down, I knew instantly it was a false flag and I told my wife this that morning over breakfast although she could not understand what I was talking about. That's because I had sixty minutes to imagine the logistics problems involved for "Arab" terrorists to plant demolitions inside a building that was in use 24 hours a day. I guessed correctly that only the building owners could have accomplished that, with something akin to the "power down" a few days beforehand.

When I heard that WTC 7 had collapsed later in the day and that agents of a foreign power had been caught setting up in advance to film all these events, I knew that it was a false flag in a joint operation with this foreign power and the American government. What many Amerikwans have taken ten years to figure out, I knew for a fact by the end of the first day after 9/11.

Birther, 9/11 Truther, and apparently a huge fan of Fallout! This guy is the jackpot.

[BlackPete]

Orly Taitz is the gift that keeps on giving. (video in link). (http://www.salon.com/politics/war_room/2009/08/03/msnbc_taitz/index.html)

[Narradisall]

Birther, 9/11 Truther, and apparently a huge fan of Fallout! This guy is the jackpot.

I was under the impression that plane fuel burning at insane temperatures turned the steal to putty and thus wrecked the whole structual stability of the buildings, because, you know, when they built these things they thought of bombs but not of planes flying into them, exploding and then slow burning for 20 minutes.

I'm not a surveyor though so I'm not an expert on this type of stuff. I'm sure that he is though! :D

(god please tell me he isn't)

[Ink Asylum]

Birthers....busted! (http://washingtonindependent.com/53658/is-this-the-source-of-the-forged-kenyan-birth-certificate)

One of my friends in the small community of Obama “birther”-debunkers passes on quite the discovery: a 1964 “certified copy of registration of birth” from Australia, easily available on Bomford.net, a genealogy site. There are striking similarities between this document and the one Orly Taitz is passing off as a “Kenyan birth certificate” for Barack Obama.

- The design is identical, down to the seal at the top and the classifications (”Christian name,” etc) used for identifying the baby.

- The “registrar” on the Bomford document is G.F. Lavender. On the Taitz document, it’s E.F. Lavender.

- The “district registrar” on the Bomford document is J.H. Miller. On the Taitz document, it’s M.H. Miller.

- The number of the book is identical on both documents: Book 44B, Page 5733.

http://washingtonindependent.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/DavidJeffreyBomfordBirthCertDoc65.jpg

http://washingtonindependent.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/kenyandocument-367x316.jpg

Better luck next time!

[Doogie2K]

The comments on that link are full of comedy gold.

[ClannerDelta]

Is there some sort of translator for this?

if you people who support this president and this congress and say you are working for the success of America are either too stupid are just the ones who are recieving money from the government and want more

[Doogie2K]

Is there some sort of translator for this?

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/sheeple.png

It may have already been posted elsewhere on CoG, but it fits here, too.

[Generation ABXY]

Unfortunately, that xkcd (is that right) strip doesn't mention anything about welfare queens.

[Narradisall]

The comments on that link are full of comedy gold.

Sheesh, you're right.

It's one thing to hear about this crap, reading the logical reasoning behind some of these peoples points is scary.

Obama could release a original birth ceritficate, along with a video of his birth clearly showing Hawaii landmarks in the background and they would probably say its faked.

They really aren't helping the right wing any....

[Telefrog]

Want two facts about Chuck Norris? OK. Chuck Norris can divide by zero and he's a stealthy Birther (http://www.creators.com/conservative/chuck-norris/what-obama-and-my-wife-have-in-common.html).

Mr. President, as more and more people realize that you are refusing to release your original birth certificate, further questions will fuel the fires of debate or at least hinder the embers from ever being snuffed out. Questions such as, "Does it really contain the Hawaiian physician's name?" "Does it disclose something other than his birthplace that he wishes others not to see?"

Of course, not every U.S. citizen has access to his original birth certificate, but you do, and yours is the only one under debate. As valuable as copies can be, textual critics know that nothing outweighs an original, especially when only it contains the information under question.

Again, why don't you simply request, release and give permission to make public your original birth certificate?

[ClannerDelta]

Fuck yeah! Chuck's gonna chin punch our President. I can't wait.

[Johan]

Up with Chuck! Up Chuck! :D

[National Kato]

Fuck yeah! Chuck's gonna chin punch our President. I can't wait.

It'll either be this:

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f27/NationalKato/ssteeringwheel9fkcu6.gif

...or this:

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f27/NationalKato/ewevxfruo1zh2.gif

[BlackPete]

From a commentor on the Ezra Klein blog. I thought it explained the birthers pretty well...

The birthers think that if they can prove Obama isn't an American citizen, he won't be President any more -- or if he is, it will be evident to everyone (just as it already is to them) that he is an illegitimate president.

This is their magic bullet.

They do not believe he is legitimate. If he is legitimate, the country they imagine does not exist. If he is, they no longer own that country, as they have believed they did for generations. For a certain number of millions of people, the America of Barack Obama simply cannot be home.

It is the exact same mindset that led Southerners to refuse to permit black soldiers even as the Confederacy was collapsing around them: if blacks could be soldiers, their entire theory of slavery was wrong. If Barack Obama can be a successful, honorable, and popular president, their entire theory of America is wrong.

Which it is, of course.

But heaven protect us from the havoc, violence, and insanity some of these people are likely to cause in the coming months and years.

[Narradisall]

I know I may have missed this, but I'm sure I'd read it somewhere before....

Does Obama actually have his birth certificate and has he or hasn't he shown it?

[Ink Asylum]

As far as I'm aware he has what we've seen, the Certificate of Live Birth, which is a publicly available digital record of the private paper document that is in the archives in Hawaii. It is what anyone who requests their birth certificate from Hawaii gets.

[Narradisall]

Ah right, see I thought thats what I'd seen.

So people are requesting to see the original paper document. Personally although it would probably be easy for him (if he has it) to show the thing I doubt it would shut these nutjobs up at all even if he did.

[Ink Asylum]

Since you've had several Hawaii officials look at the physical document and confirm it exists, and the Birthers believe they're lying, there's really nothing that will stop them from calling a released document a fake. Better to just let them keep looking ridiculous with their copied Australian BCs and by letting Orly go on television more.

[BlackPete]

Since you've had several Hawaii officials look at the physical document and confirm it exists, and the Birthers believe they're lying, there's really nothing that will stop them from calling a released document a fake. Better to just let them keep looking ridiculous with their copied Australian BCs and by letting Orly go on television more.

Don't interrupt your enemy when he's making a mistake.

[Ink Asylum]

That's been one of Obama's strategies for a long time.

[Doogie2K]

Don't interrupt your enemy when he's making a mistake.

Indeed. Sometimes the oldest advice is the best advice.

[Generation ABXY]

I suppose there's always a chance these people will burn themselves out (at least, I hope so), but it seems just as likely that Obama's perceived silence could do him damage, too.

[Slack3r78]

I suppose there's always a chance these people will burn themselves out (at least, I hope so), but it seems just as likely that Obama's perceived silence could do him damage, too.

I really don't see what he has to lose at this point. The only people that still believe this nonsense aren't going to be convinced, and the longer the idiots scream and yell, the crazier they'll look.

[Ink Asylum]

How could this possibly damage Obama?

[Narradisall]

How could this possibly damage Obama?

Did you NOT SEE that he now has Chuck Norris after him?!?!?!?! :D

[ShivaX]

Did you NOT SEE that he now has Chuck Norris after him?!?!?!?! :D

Maybe he should give his buddy Huckabee a call and have him explain it all to him.

[Ink Asylum]

Guys! It's worse than we thought! Our last President was born in Kenya, too! Look!

http://kenyanbirthcertificategenerator.com/221f0265191b2d56e3f8d1666f4b6704.jpg

Who knows how many of our politicians are secret Kenyan Manchurian Candidates. (http://kenyanbirthcertificategenerator.com/)

[Generation ABXY]

I really don't see what he has to lose at this point. The only people that still believe this nonsense aren't going to be convinced, and the longer the idiots scream and yell, the crazier they'll look.

How could this possibly damage Obama?

I just assume there's always a small faction of people who could still be convinced after-the-fact, that's all.

[Telefrog]

Good thing the police of DeKalb County are on the case (http://www.ajc.com/news/dekalb/cops-suspended-for-obama-103821.html)!

The United States Secret Service notified county officials that DeKalb County computer equipment was utilized to do a query on the President.

Edwards said the background check was run using a computer mounted in a patrol car.

Such behavior, said William “Miz” Miller, DeKalb Public Safety director, is not to be tolerated.


Of course, the fact that the inquiry conducted by these fine investigative officers was blocked by the Secret Service "brownshirts" is evidence of the conspiracy to keep the truth away from us!

[Ink Asylum]

The percentage of people that are going to be lured over to Birtherism at this point with the preponderance of evidence on Obama's side, actually all real evidence is on his side, and how bad the Birthers are making themselves look with their repeated fake Kenyan BCs and general asshattery is about LouDobbs%.

[Johan]

The percentage of people that are going to be lured over to Birtherism at this point with the preponderance of evidence on Obama's side, actually all real evidence is on his side, and how bad the Birthers are making themselves look with their repeated fake Kenyan BCs and general asshattery is about LouDobbs%.

Ink, you really need to do a better job of editing. Please. :)

[Generation ABXY]

Though I haven't seen it myself (I'm not particularly a fan of his), I'm told Glenn Beck supposedly went on a rant dismissing the Birthers the other day. Honestly, I'm surprised it hasn't popped up here yet, given the infatuation some of you have with FOX News.

[ShivaX]

Though I haven't seen it myself (I'm not particularly a fan of his), I'm told Beck supposedly went on a rant dismissing the Birthers the other day. Honestly, I'm surprised it hasn't popped up here yet, given the infatuation some of you have with FOX News.

Could be. O'Reilly spent the better part of a show the other day dismissing the Birther movement as a bunch of morons. I don't really keep up on the shows, I just happened to hear Bill talking about it in the background (my step-dad watches the damn station every moment hes awake).

[Ink Asylum]

When even O'Reilly, Ann Coulter and Beck won't sign on to your crazy conspiracy theory you really should re-evaluate.

At least they still have Limbaugh. And Lou Dobbs.

[Generation ABXY]

Is Rush one, too (again, not a fan)?

[Narradisall]

lol at Telefrogs comment. Thats one dumb fucking cop if he used a patrol mounted computer to do a check on the president.

Shit, any checks be they financial, criminal etc done on politicians, famous people etc raise a red flag. I would think anyone using a system to do that would bloody well know that unless you have a good reason you don't run certain names through the system.

[Dr. Quasius]

The Dangerous Precedent Set by Obama being President.

If we decide to ignore the natural born citizen provision, we open the door to the possibility of a person with strong ties to foreign nations possibly stronger than to our own to be the sole commander of our military men and women who protect us. And they also deserve our protection AT ALL COSTS from such a treasonous scenario.

here is what no liberal on earth or the media can even answer:

During the election, then Senator Obama published a statement at his website which said that his birth status was governed by the British Nationality Act of 1948. Can you please tell the American people how a natural born citizen of the United States can be governed at birth by British law?

Obama has done a lot of communist things from controlling the media, to controlling the census, to having 44 Czars who are accountable to no one except him, and the list goes on and on.

For it is this specific fear that prompted our first Supreme Court Chief Justice John Jay to suggest to George Washington the following:

Permit me to hint, whether it would be wise and seasonable to provide a strong check to the admission of Foreigners into the administration of our national Government; and to declare expressly that the Commander in Chief of the American army shall not be given to nor devolve on, any but a natural born Citizen.

So even our first people in Government were concerned about someone like Obama showing up. We have seen that this person Obama has taking away and continues to take away many of our liberties that we have had for 200+ years. Ask yourself if you want to live in a North Korea, Cuba, China, Russia, etc, society where your neighbors turn you in? If you don't think that is possible, it is projected that 60% of the population will work for the government given the bills that Obama proposes. That means your neighbors will turn you in when you speak out. Not even a liberal wants that!!!

[Telefrog]

That is awesome.

[ShivaX]

Is Rush one, too (again, not a fan)?

http://mediamatters.org/research/200907200029

LIMBAUGH: Barack Obama has yet to have to prove he's a citizen. All he'd have to do is show a birth certificate. He has yet to have to prove he's -- I have to show them 14 different ways where the hell I am every day of the year for three years.

Ever since Lou Dobbs made an ass out of himself hes been keeping it on the DL a bit, but hes one of them.

[Johan]

Coulter is such a trip. Democratic conspiracy theorists are, too. Hilarious list here. (http://townhall.com/columnists/AnnCoulter/2009/08/06/obama_birth_certificate_spotted_in_bogus_moon_land ing_footage)

[digitalErich]

They got owned. (http://washingtonindependent.com/54104/punkin-the-birthers-priceless)

[ShivaX]

They got owned. (http://washingtonindependent.com/54104/punkin-the-birthers-priceless)

Yet many still believe its real.

Can you own someone who is too stupid to know they've been owned?

[Ink Asylum]

Orly Taitz is accusing the Australian whose birth certificate was copied of forging their own BC to discredit the fake one.

[Generation ABXY]

If nothing else, at least you can't say he's not committed. :p

[Ultima Thulian]

He needs to be "committed" to an asylum.

[BlackPete]

Who's he? Orly?

Although I guess if you look at Orly, I suppose it's easy to make that mistake:

http://www.theliberaloc.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/orly1.jpg

[Ultima Thulian]

I thought this was Orly?

http://thegamerdome.com/wp-content/uploads/images/owl_orly.png

Also, I hotlinked this...only 3 hours of sleep, very tired.

[Ink Asylum]

I really wish this were satire, but it's not:

Obama's MySpace page: I'm 52 years old, not 48. Would place president's birth during time Hawaii was a territory. (http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=107163)

If President Obama were indeed born in Hawaii, was it while the islands were a territory of the United States?

A new wrinkle in the dispute over his birth – and whether he is eligible to be president under the U.S. Constitution's requirement that the president be a "natural born" citizen – appeared today when Obama's official MySpace page declared his age is 52, thus placing his birth year at 1957 instead of 1961 as has been claimed.

That would mean he would have been born during the archipelago's time as a territory of the U.S., the islands' status from about 1900 until statehood in 1959

[Doogie2K]

Wouldn't that still mean he was born in the US, but in a territory instead of a state? I don't understand the distinction; in Canada, being born in a province or territory is immaterial, you're still Canadian.

[Narradisall]

Evidence from HIS OFFICIAL MYSPACE PAGE, OMAGAD!

Really, they're trawling Myspace for evidence now? This is hilarious.

[Voodoo]

Wouldn't that still mean he was born in the US, but in a territory instead of a state? I don't understand the distinction; in Canada, being born in a province or territory is immaterial, you're still Canadian.
From what I understand, in the US to be a natural born citizen you merely have to be born in any US territory and it doesn't have to be a state.

[ShivaX]

From what I understand, in the US to be a natural born citizen you merely have to be born in any US territory and it doesn't have to be a state.

This is correct. If you're born on a military base in a foreign country you're a natural born citizen, much less a territory.

And if you want to get crazy about it you can more easily argue that John McCain isn't a natural born citizen. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural-born_citizen)
John McCain (born 1936), who ran for the Republican party nomination in 2000 and was the Republican nominee in 2008, according to his birth certificate, was born of two U.S. citizen parents at Colon Hospital in Colon, Panama.[38] The city of Colon was outside the US administered Canal Zone and remained Panamanian territory throughout the existence of the Panama Canal Zone.[39][40][41][42] A brief birth announcement in The Panama American stated that the birth had taken place at "the Submarine Base Hospital." [43][44] The former unincorporated territory Panama Canal Zone and its military facilities were not regarded as United States territory.[45] In March 2008 McCain was opined eligible for Presidency in an opinion paper by former Solicitor General Ted Olson and Harvard Law Professor Laurence H. Tribe.[46] In April 2008 the U.S. Senate approved a non-binding resolution recognizing McCain's status as a natural born citizen.[47] In September 2008 U.S. District Judge William Alsup stated obiter in his ruling that it is "highly probable" that McCain is a natural born citizen, although he acknowledged the possibility that the applicable laws had been enacted after the fact and applied only retroactively.[48] These views have been criticized by Gabriel J. Chin, Professor of Law at the University of Arizona, who argues that McCain was at birth a citizen of Panama and was only retroactively declared a born citizen under 8 U.S.C. § 1403, because at the time of his birth and with regard to the Canal Zone the Supreme Court's Insular Cases overruled the Naturalization Act of 1795, which would otherwise have declared McCain a U.S. citizen immediately at birth.[49] Although the US Foreign Affairs Manual states that children born in the Panama Canal Zone at one point only became U.S. nationals,[50] it also states in general that "it has never been determined definitively by a court whether a person who acquired U.S. citizenship by birth abroad to U.S. citizens is a natural born citizen […]".[51] In Rogers v. Bellei the Supreme Court only ruled that "children born abroad of Americans are not citizens within the citizenship clause of the 14th Amendment", and didn't elaborate on the natural born status.[52][53]


Sorry for the Wiki quote, but its still funny. Apparently no matter what we did we couldn't elect a natural born citizen.

[Ink Asylum]

You're looking for logic from the Birthers. Sir, you are barking up the wrong tree. It's all about FUD.

[BlackPete]

Tom DeLay is not only a birther, he's damn proud of it. (http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=107424)

PyJC_uVysuM

"Chris, the Constitution of the United States specifically says you have to be a natural born citizen," DeLay said.

"I know," Matthews responded. "But I’ve never asked you for yours."

"Ask me!" DeLay responded. "I’ll give it to you!"

Matthews said seeing a birth announcement in the Honolulu newspapers was enough to convince him of Obama's birth in Hawaii.

"Newspapers!" responded DeLay. "Is a newspaper article an official document?"

"No, it's not," conceded Matthews. "It's just common sense that we’re talking about here. Common sense."

"There isn't anybody in America that's been born in America that didn't get a birth certificate at Obama's age," said DeLay. "Maybe at my age there are people born out in — "

Yeah, that's some hard-hitting journalism there, Matthews.

[Ultima Thulian]

Tom fucking Delay? As if he has any shred of credibility left.

[BlackPete]

I especially liked his rhetorical question about newspapers not being an official document, while conveniently ignoring that a COLB is an official document.

[roboninja]

Tom fucking Delay? As if he has any shred of credibility left.

Might as well ask Lex Luthor what his thoughts are on the subject.

[alienmastermind]

Might as well ask Lex Luthor what his thoughts are on the subject.

I did. He said 'Destroy Superman!' between mouthfuls of baby pie.

[Johan]

Tom fucking Delay? As if he has any shred of credibility left.

I have a theory that Nancy Pelosi is Tom DeLay in drag.

[Ultima Thulian]

I have a theory that Nancy Pelosi is Tom DeLay in drag.

Thanks for the mental image. Excuse me while I go throw up.

[BlackPete]

Oh this is just too rich to not share...

Birther Orly Taitz Compares Self To Mandela, Wants Judge Tried For Treason (http://tpmlivewire.talkingpointsmemo.com/2009/09/birther-orly-taitz-compares-self-to-mandela-judge-treason.php?ref=fpa)


In an interview with TPM just now, Birther evangelist Orly Taitz fired back at Clay Land, the U.S. district court judge who tore apart Birtherism and threatened Taitz with sanctions in an order today, saying that "somebody should consider trying [the judge] for treason and aiding and abetting this massive fraud known as Barack Hussein Obama."
"Listen, Nelson Mandela stayed in prison for years in order to get to the truth and justice."

And Taitz brushed off the possibility of sanctions. "I'm not afraid of sanctions. Because I know this is not frivolous. I know this is extremely important -- the most important issue in this country today."

"Judge Land is a typical puppet of the regime -- just like in the Soviet Union," she said.


Seriously, the whole article is worth reading. This woman is absolutely insane. And hilarious. I never want her to go away!

EDIT: Couldn't resist...
http://i26.tinypic.com/ie2wdh.jpg

[Narradisall]

I love the soviet throw in at the end.

OMG commies!

[Voodoo]

Couldn't resist...
http://i26.tinypic.com/ie2wdh.jpg

..and I couldn't resist the o-so-obvious...

http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll249/DRQPQUT/images.jpg

[Ultima Thulian]

I'm surprised no she hasn't hooked up with Glenn Beck yet.

[ClannerDelta]

I'm surprised no she hasn't hooked up with Glenn Beck yet.

I'd be afraid of what that love child would look like.

[Crowe]

That bitch and beck would be beginning of the end...apocalypse time. And there would be no Sam and Dean Winchester to lay some smack down.

Why do nut jobs like this get air time. You have people calling Obama Hitler, shitting all over universal healthcare, Birthers, Fox News. The economic crisis. Johan. Hell.

[BlackPete]

The story keeps getting funnier... (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/09/16/connie-rhodes-birther-cha_n_288814.html)

UPDATE: The Army captain who challenged President Obama's birth certificate in court is renouncing her former lawyer, Orly Taitz. Capt. Connie Rhodes wrote to the judge her in case that she did not authorize the emergency request for stay of deployment that Taitz filed on her behalf.

"I did not authorize it and do not wish to proceed," Rhodes wrote. "Ms. Taitz never requested my permission nor did I give it." She added that she plans to file a bar complaint against Taitz herself for "her reprehensible and unprofessional actions."

Taitz told Talking Points Memo she thinks the letter is a forgery.

Let me repeat that: Taitz thinks her own client's letter is a forgery.

[Narradisall]

Oh that is classic.

I'd be bricking it if I realised my council was batshit crazy though. No wonder she tried to pull out. Although it could make sense that her public denoucement was actually masterminded by Obama in order to discredit Ms Taitz.

Boooorn in the U S Aaaaaaaa, I was boooooorn in the U S Aaaaaaaaa!

[BlackPete]

Birthers truly are the gift that keep giving: (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/andy-borowitz/obama-gives-hanukkah-wish_b_389108.html)

President Barack Obama's decision to wish Jews around the world a happy Hanukkah in Hebrew has added more fuel to the movement of the so-called Birthers, who now claim that Mr. Obama was born in Israel.

Orly Taitz, a leading Birther spokesperson, told CNN today that she had in her possession a birth certificate for Mr. Obama that was issued in Tel Aviv.

"If you look at the birth certificate, you will see the name he was born with, Baruch Obama," she said.

:D

Not really, it's comedy news. Merry Xmas!

[boratika]

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f66/boratika/788px-Lincoln.jpg

I was born in 200 log cabins (scattered across the earth)

[National Kato]

I love how Orly Taitz will believe any document that comes across her desk except the one that proves Obama's Hawaiian birth. :D

[cppcrusader]

I love how Orly Taitz will believe any document that comes across her desk except the one that proves Obama's Hawaiian birth. :D

I propose an experiment in which a doctored version of her own birth certificate showing her to actually be Canadian is slipped to her by an anonymous source.

[Dorkandproudofit]

I propose an experiment in which a doctored version of her own birth certificate showing her to actually be Canadian is slipped to her by an anonymous source.

I predict that her mind will be so heavily torn with conflict that the stress will cause a hemmorrhagic stroke.

Any bets? Come on, peeps, what's wrong with gambling on a person's life? :D

[MagGnome]

I propose an experiment in which a doctored version of her own birth certificate showing her to actually be Canadian is slipped to her by an anonymous source.

She was born in the former USSR, so Canada would probably be an improvement. :p


The Birthers are obviously barking up the wrong tree. They need to turn their attention and ire to Dole Foods. We never would have been in the mess we're in now if Dole hadn't existed! It's Dole's fault that Obama is president!

[Ultima Thulian]

Bwahaha! I gotta admit Gnome, I laughed at that one. But I'm a big history geek, so I get the reference, haha. :D

[MagGnome]

Bwahaha! I gotta admit Gnome, I laughed at that one. But I'm a big history geek, so I get the reference, haha. :D

I was hoping at least one person would get the reference and have a good chuckle. :)

[Zecon]

Oh, good lord.
If President Obama wants to run again in 2012, he may need to prove to the state of Arizona that he was in fact born in the United States.

Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/2010/04/20/2010-04-20_birther_bill_in_arizona_aimed_to_make_president _obama_prove_hes_a_natural_born_c.html#ixzz0lmpxrq fu

[Generation ABXY]

Meh, I didn't see this as a big deal. Born out of the wrong ideas? Perhaps, but nothing really changes...

[BlackPete]

I actually hope Arizona follows through with that. Then when Hawaii sends them a COLB (which is a perfectly legal document), then it'll be amusing to watch Arizona and Hawaii get into a hissy slapfight.

In another story... a Lt. Col. is being court martialed for refusing to obey orders unless Obama provides his birth certificate (http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2010/04/group_court_martial_charges_brought_against_birthe .php?ref=fpa):

Late last month, Lakin released a YouTube video in which he explained that he would not report for a second tour in Afghanistan until Obama proves he is a citizen. A couple of weeks later, the Army announced he was under investigation.

In a press release issued today by the American Patriot Foundation, which is raising money for Lakin's defense, he waxed heroic:

"I invited my court martial, and today I stand ready to answer these charges. I was prepared to deploy if only the President would authorize the release of the proof of his eligibility. He refused, and now the court will determine the issue, and my fate. The constitution matters. The truth matters," he said.

Dumbass doesn't even begin to describe this guy. At 17 years service, he was only 3 years away from getting his pension and VA benefits.

[Zero]

What a fucking idiot. I have no other words.

[J Arcane]

The sad part is, even if they throw his ass in Leavenworth and he spends his entire retirement behind bars, the Tea Party/Birther set will just take this as more evidence of Obama's evil commiefascistmuslim autocracy.

[Dorkandproudofit]

The sad part is, even if they throw his ass in Leavenworth and he spends his entire retirement behind bars, the Tea Party/Birther set will just take this as more evidence of Obama's evil commiefascistmuslim autocracy.

This is the absolute truth.

[Vigil80]

Not intending to come down on either side here, but what would be so bad about Obama just putting the paperwork out there and silencing the movement? Give them certificates, licenses, a receipt where his mom got a candy bar at 7/11 while she was pregnant, and all in quadruplicate. Wouldn't that shut the "idiots" up once and for all? Then noone would have to hear the word birther for a few years.

[J Arcane]

Not intending to come down on either side here, but what would be so bad about Obama just putting the paperwork out there and silencing the movement? Give them certificates, licenses, a receipt where his mom got a candy bar at 7/11 while she was pregnant, and all in quadruplicate. Wouldn't that shut the "idiots" up once and for all? Then noone would have to hear the word birther for a few years.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/51/BarackObamaCertificationOfLiveBirthHawaii.jpg

[Vigil80]

Subtle as a strip mine, as always.

So what's the problem supposed to be with that? Forged? Even if it is, we would never know. Probably time for them to just choose a new battle.

[Ink Asylum]

Subtle as a strip mine, as always.

So what's the problem supposed to be with that? Forged? Even if it is, we would never know. Probably time for them to just choose a new battle.

As J Arcane showed, he's provided enough evidence to convince any rational person. The irrational will never believe any amount of proof. Ever. So why cater to them? Let them act like the crazy conspiracy theorists they are and make the extreme right look bad.

[Vigil80]

I guess that's true. They've latched on to a cause, and will end up going down with it.

I'm not sure where is the best place to draw the line. Personally, it would just warm my heart to see one last attempt at outreach, especially for a fellow in uniform like the Lt. Colonel. Wrong though he may be, it's a shame to see years of sacrifice go up in smoke over this.

[evilgoodwin]

The lack of evidence is proof that he is from foreign parts! The existence of evidence is obviously a forgery!

These people are fucking dumb.

[AversionFX]

the "truthers" (those bumbling idiots who think 9/11 was some sorta super conspiracy), and just get rid of them?

I haven't really followed the "truther" argument. However, your response is pretty insulting.

Official report says a plane hit the pentagon. No plane wreckage was ever shown at the pentagon. Kind of peculiar.

Tower 7 collapsing, despite the fact that it was not hit by a plane. Numerous expert opinions and eye-witnesses describing its collapse as consistent with a controlled demolition. Also suspicious.

Using 9/11 to justify an invasion of Iraq (a place with nothing to do with 9/11). Also suspicious.

The "birthers" are ridiculous, because that is obviously something that is easy to debunk. Bundling that with conspiracy theorists (of which there are a lot) regarding 9/11 is completely shallow-minded.

(edit: definitely should've looked at the date of the post. Why the hell did this get necro'ed?)

[Ultima Thulian]

No.

Look into the Truther movement, THEN get back to me. Trust me...they're stupid.

[diablopath]

Official report says a plane hit the pentagon. No plane wreckage was ever shown at the pentagon. Kind of peculiar.

Tower 7 collapsing, despite the fact that it was not hit by a plane. Numerous expert opinions and eye-witnesses describing its collapse as consistent with a controlled demolition. Also suspicious.

Using 9/11 to justify an invasion of Iraq (a place with nothing to do with 9/11). Also suspicious.

The "birthers" are ridiculous, because that is obviously something that is easy to debunk. Bundling that with conspiracy theorists (of which there are a lot) regarding 9/11 is completely shallow-minded.

Please, please, please, please don't get back into the "Truthers have good points..." because, when you do the research, check into actual expert opinions, take it all in, the Truther arguments are not sound at all. They mix right in with Birthers. They're not really seeking any actual truth, they're seeking to tell everybody else that they know how things actually are. They tend to deny any and all counter evidence and continue spouting their message.

[Ox]

Um, guys, for someone who supposedly hasn't looked into the Truther argument too closely, AversionFX seems to be both quite familiar with that argument and to be pretty convinced that various things are "suspicious." I'm not sure why you're suggesting he do more research, it sounds like he's made up his mind.

[AversionFX]

Um, guys, for someone who supposedly hasn't looked into the Truther argument too closely, AversionFX seems to be both quite familiar with that argument and to be pretty convinced that various things are "suspicious." I'm not sure why you're suggesting he do more research, it sounds like he's made up his mind.

I've heard some things that don't line up, and you take that to mean that I have made up my mind? I'm just saying that there is a very justified reason to be skeptical about the "America was attacked by evil terrorists who hate us for our freedom!" story. When shit doesn't really add up (namely a building just falling down for no reason), a rational person gets curious.

They're not really seeking any actual truth, they're seeking to tell everybody else that they know how things actually are. They tend to deny any and all counter evidence and continue spouting their message.

That's a good reason to not take them seriously. However, when you tell me that a plane has crashed somewhere (especially when that somewhere is the intelligence headquarters of a country), I want to see some wreckage. I'm not really sure how that is "siding with the truthers."

If you make a claim, I want evidence.

[diablopath]

I've heard some things that don't line up, and you take that to mean that I have made up my mind? I'm just saying that there is a very justified reason to be skeptical about the "America was attacked by evil terrorists who hate us for our freedom!" story. When shit doesn't really add up (namely a building just falling down for no reason), a rational person gets curious.

Look, saying "It doesn't add up, I demand answers." is very close to being lazy. The research is plentiful and available. I trust experts on these things a lot more than I trust finger-pointing college student documentaries.

EDIT: First link was very hefty and a lot to sift through.
I offer this instead: http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military/news/debunking-911-myths-world-trade-center

That's a good reason to not take them seriously. However, when you tell me that a plane has crashed somewhere (especially when that somewhere is the intelligence headquarters of a country), I want to see some wreckage. I'm not really sure how that is "siding with the truthers."

If you make a claim, I want evidence.

http://911u.org/CoDR/images/pentagonScrap.jpg

EDIT 2: By the way, the one making a claim is you. Well, I suppose you didn't explicitly make a claim, but it's not hard to understand your use of "suspicious." There are accepted truths to what happened on 9/11. These are accepted because they are backed by experts, science, etc. When the Truthers, or you, say these things are suspicious, it's up to them (or you) to explain why.

[ShivaX]

When the Truthers, or you, say these things are suspicious, it's up to them (or you) to explain why.

I find it suspicious that we breathe oxygen. I've never fucking seen this supposed element.

(Had to be a dick someone gave Truther theories a hint of merit)

As far as what Birthers want? Things that don't exist that they've made up.
They want Obama's "long form" or something. I frequent a forum where Birther horseshit is rampant. They've made up their own imaginary laws and documents and treat it as absolute fucking truth. If you try to convince them otherwise you're a sheep or a communist or just too stupid to understand.

[Vigil80]

This probably isn't a comforting thought, but by the way, if there were a conspiracy, it would never be that obvious. :p That goes for both camps. If you are at the tippy top of the government, you probably have a spare plane at your disposal somewhere, or the printing press that makes all those silly forms. You wouldn't have to resort to fakes that a bunch of random goobers could supposedly see through.

[Ox]

I'm just saying that there is a very justified reason to be skeptical about the "America was attacked by evil terrorists who hate us for our freedom!" story.
Ladies and gentlemen, the Prosecution's Exhibit A for why AversionFX is a Truther. I rest my case.

[National Kato]

Not intending to come down on either side here, but what would be so bad about Obama just putting the paperwork out there and silencing the movement?

It wouldn't be so bad, except he already has. The problem, is that at this point the idiots have made up their minds not to believe anything. Anderson Cooper recently had Arizona State Rep. Cecil Ash on to ask why he voted for the recent legislation requiring candidates to prove their citizenship (http://videocafe.crooksandliars.com/heather/anderson-cooper-asks-birther-arizona-rep-c).

During the segment, Cooper showed the certificate (the same J Arcane posted), the official signature and stamp from the Hawaii state registrar, and the raised seal. He covers all of this within the first minute of the video I linked to above.

Yet people still have doubts? They only have their own ignorance to blame.