Serious thread about the military

[Shadowstorm]

yeah.

I'm going to end up joining the military (the Air Force to be specific). I've moved on from the "strongly considering it" phase to the "definitely joining" phase.

However, there's a slew of choices as far as when. I can only pick one (obviously). I am currently just about finished (one semester left) in obtaining my Associate's degree. I can either:



Do the usual work/school combo, aim for my BA and then join two years down the road after that is completed,
Enlist after I finish my Associate's,
Enlist now but do school while I am in the military (on my own free time).

The conundrum: frankly, I had not planned on continuing college after I get my Associate's, however, it would be beneficial to me if I shot for my Bachelor's and joined as an officer. College just isn't my thing, but I am willing to work hard and push myself to get shit done and over with so I could join as an officer and not just regular enlisted.

I plan on talking to a recruitment officer next week. It basically boils down to either joining after my Associate's, or joining after I get my Bachelor's.

Thoughts?

[Squidbot]

Personally I would go for the two years down the line opton. Get your education finished first and then see where you are.
Without meaning to sound condescending; you're young, a lot can happen in those two years.
Also, do the military have no programs for learning while you are in service, so it wouldn't be entirely on your own time if you chose that option? I have no idea.

Also; thanks for joining the military when you do it. Respect.

[frederec]

If two years and a BA is the difference between being an officer and an enlisted man, it would probably be worth it to spend that extra time.

[Vector]

Enlist now...get degree at same time...then get commissioned.

[scythe]

The difference between the enlisted and officer side is truly night and day. The thing about being an officer is that you don't really get to do the job you sign up for, you just supervise and run things. That may sound obvious, but a lot of people don't realize it.

Unless, of course, you want to be a pilot... that's a whole different story.

I'm an officer/pilot in the Marine Corps, but I did Air Force ROTC back in college, so PM me if you have any questions.

[diablopath]

What do you want to do in the Air Force?

[rein]

I was not going to post about this because it is too close to my real life but what timing. My daughter and I have been having this exact conversation over the last few weeks. The difference is she is a little over a year away from graduating with a bachelors degree. I can't convince her to wait till next summer. She has choices and needless to say I don't understand her desire to join the Air Force at this time. I have nothing against the military and people who serve. Just the opposite, my father retired from the Navy and I spent a good deal of time on military bases. It's just her timing and her unwillingness to listen to any point of view that does not have me jumping for joy at the prospect of her being in the military. She went and processed yesterday and it looks like she has her mind pretty much made up. She goes on the 13th to test for the job she is interested in.

I will give you the same advice I gave her... ...maybe you will at least acknowledge it. If you have options to finish your BA, finish the degree. Not only do you qualify for OCS but the pay grade increase alone would make it worth your time. Whatever you decide, I wish you the best.

[Inspector Fowler]

Consider the reserves - they have programs that allow you to attend college full time and NOT get deployed until you get your degree. But while you're IN college you would get the educational benefits.

After you finished your degree you could either complete your time in the reserves and be finished, or you could look at becoming an officer through OCS.

I hear it is harder to get selected for OCS once you are in the service, but I have never served so that may be bullshit. I would imagine, though, if your enlistment period were ending soon and you said you wouldn't re-up unless you were allowed to attend OCS, they would agree to it (unless you'd racked up a shitty work history in the military during college).

[Generation ABXY]

Whatever you decide, I wish you the best.

I really don't have much insight into either so I won't add my two cents, but, like Squid and rein, you have my thanks and best wishes.

[J Arcane]

As someone who just brought to a close his own enlistment process after a more full evaluation of the possibilities in light of the sheer volume of delays involved (as well as my failing health), I wish to encourage you to choose the first option.

Really, officer is the way to go. The only reason I bothered with enlisting at all was because of the possibility that I could take advantage of certain programs in the Air Force that would make it easier to get the training for an officer's degree.

It takes a bloody lot to get into the Air Force these days though. If there's even the slightest negative mark on your credit, a collection, an old bill that never got paid, that'll slow down the process because you have to get a waiver for each bloody one, each of which can take six weeks or more for processing. The health standards are actually more rigorous than the ground pounder services because the Air Force does not really offer any dedicated fitness training during basic, they expect you to be fit and ready for bear before you even get in.

The bottom line is, they don't really need enlisted in the Air Force, they're usually not off getting bloody killed, unless you're talking SERE or TACC or that sort of hot zone job, and the result is that either way they make it pretty bloody hard.

Furthermore, officers get paid twice as much, and generally get treated better and get better, non-shit jobs anyhow.

So I figure, I'll spend 2-4 years working on a Bachelor's in one of the sciences, and if I'm still interested in weapons research at that time, and I'm still interested in life in the Air Force, then I'll submit myself as an officer candidate, having spent the last quarter decade getting myself more prepared for the prospect.

The military's a bloody big thing, no sense rushing off and making a mess of it. Take the time, do it right, and you'll get more out of it in the end.

[Wasson_]

Well, you've made the first decision your best one by choosing the air force. out of the branches, it's the one most in touch with reality...

otherwise, I have no advice for you. Just be selective and careful about what careerfield you end up going into...

[scythe]

Well, you've made the first decision your best one by choosing the air force. out of the branches, it's the one most in touch with reality...

I very nearly made the same choice. The quality of life is second to none. To the OP though, what made you choose the Air Force?

[Ultima Thulian]

I got a buddy in the Air Force. They are treating him well and he's doing good. As others have said, consider the reserves.

[mister slim]

All things considered, which is clearly up to you, try to join as an officer.

[J Arcane]

Consider the reserves - they have programs that allow you to attend college full time and NOT get deployed until you get your degree. But while you're IN college you would get the educational benefits.

After you finished your degree you could either complete your time in the reserves and be finished, or you could look at becoming an officer through OCS.

I hear it is harder to get selected for OCS once you are in the service, but I have never served so that may be bullshit. I would imagine, though, if your enlistment period were ending soon and you said you wouldn't re-up unless you were allowed to attend OCS, they would agree to it (unless you'd racked up a shitty work history in the military during college).
What my recruiter told me was basically what you say there, that any of the officer training programs for the already enlisted are generally very hard to get into, and boil down to a lot of hard work, ass kissing, internal politics, and generally being absolutely perfect. He I think wanted to make clear to me that I shouldn't get my hopes up for the idea, but at the time I was thinking I'd just default back to pursuing combat arms instructor instead if I didn't get the chance to do the officer thing.

Now I think I'd rather just get a proper degree and do it right from the beginning.

[The Continental]

If you don't mind me asking, what is it you were planning on seeking your bachelor's degree in?

[mightbe]

Awesome! Good luck in the Air Force!

[Mike Kelehan]

If you're only one semester from the Associate's, you should probably get that taken care of first. As for whether to finish up the Bachelor's first, well, that's a question I can't answer.

[Hellbug]

Don't enlist until you look into your options as an officer. You'll want this time to just be a college kid, and you can still get pretty involved with the military in the meantime through ROTC or whatever your college offers.


And yeah, the Air Force is definitely the most 'modern' of the branches in terms of how they go about things. Army... eh, not so much.

[johnperkins21]

Depends on your situation. The one benefit to enlisting now and getting your BA once you've joined is that they have programs in addition to the GI Bill which will help cover your education costs. Getting a BA isn't exactly cheap, so having the government help out with all of your expenses and paying a portion of your tuition is very beneficial. If you can afford to get your BA now, that would probably be the best option.

I tell everyone who asks that joining the Air Force was the best decision I ever made. I only wish I had been more responsible with my time while I was in and didn't spend it all drunk off my ass.

[Inspector Fowler]

Yeah, I forgot to second ROTC programs. They can be very effective and even fun. I also like them because it puts the fear of God in the little shits :D They know we can call their ROTC commander about virtually any misbehaving they do on campus, so they are almost always the most polite people I deal with.

[Shadowstorm]

What do you want to do in the Air Force?

I have no idea, frankly. My major is IT and I feel pretty comfortable with that but there's something missing from the equation. I don't know whether it's dull, or looking at computer screens all day, or what. I'll need to take the ASVAB.

I was not going to post about this because it is too close to my real life but what timing. My daughter and I have been having this exact conversation over the last few weeks. The difference is she is a little over a year away from graduating with a bachelors degree. I can't convince her to wait till next summer. She has choices and needless to say I don't understand her desire to join the Air Force at this time. I have nothing against the military and people who serve. Just the opposite, my father retired from the Navy and I spent a good deal of time on military bases. It's just her timing and her unwillingness to listen to any point of view that does not have me jumping for joy at the prospect of her being in the military. She went and processed yesterday and it looks like she has her mind pretty much made up. She goes on the 13th to test for the job she is interested in.

I will give you the same advice I gave her... ...maybe you will at least acknowledge it. If you have options to finish your BA, finish the degree. Not only do you qualify for OCS but the pay grade increase alone would make it worth your time. Whatever you decide, I wish you the best.

Thanks. I appreciate it.

I very nearly made the same choice. The quality of life is second to none. To the OP though, what made you choose the Air Force?

Like others have mentioned, the USAF is the closest branch to reality. My dad retired as a 20 year man, but enlisted. Hated it the last couple years of it, though I think that's just because he's getting older :P.

Army sucks, Marines is too hardcore, Navy ... meh. I really haven't given much thought to the reserves.

To me, it's a logical step: high school, college, military. Phase two of three. All in the name of advancing myself in life.

If you don't mind me asking, what is it you were planning on seeking your bachelor's degree in?

Information Technology.

[BigJonno]

A friend of mine over here got a sweet deal out of the army, no idea how he got it though. He was in the process of going all the way up to his doctorate on their money with a guaranteed R&D position with a nice commission and a fat paycheque at the end of it. He even avoided having to go to Iraq with the rest of his TA unit.

[Whunpo]

Best of luck to you, Shadowstorm. I hope you find what you're looking for in the military, whatever it may be.

[diablopath]

The ASVAB is a fucking joke, seriously.
Nothing complicated at all. Very simple test, and I can't stress that enough.

You would seriously benefit from doing a lot of research. When I was trying to join (medical DQ > me), I really benefited from the USAF recruitment site and Military.com.

Have an idea of what you want to do *before* you go to MEPS, or even before you talk to a recruiter in his office. It makes it soooo much easier.

[Ultima Thulian]

I actually know people who failed the ASVAB. How they failed it is beyond me. As diablopath said, it's rather simple.

[frederec]

I actually know people who failed the ASVAB. How they failed it is beyond me. As diablopath said, it's rather simple.

I once came into my office and there was a message on my machine from someone who was looking to get some tutoring on the math portion of the ASVAB. He had trouble getting his point across.

[J Arcane]

I actually know people who failed the ASVAB. How they failed it is beyond me. As diablopath said, it's rather simple.
I got a 96 on the pre-screen test. My recruiter was surprised as hell. Apparently they don't get scores that high normally. The guy before me had gotten a 26. I don't even understand how it could be possible to be that dumb.

[Ultima Thulian]

My guess is a lot of poorer/uneducated people try to get into the military in the hopes of bettering themselves, but do poorly on the ASVAB.

But that's me at my most optimistic. I just think most people are dumb and lethargic in every regard (physically, intellectually, even emotionally, etc.)

[Dave]

This is just one guy's opinion, and you can take it or leave it; but (from what I can tell, and as others here have said before me) it's a lot easier to go O via ROTC than it is once you're on the inside as an E. Competing for an OTS slot as an enlisted member can be very difficult.

If you're dead set on going officer though, I'd finish my Associate's degree and then look into a school with a ROTC detachment that would let you transfer your credits towards a Bachellor's degree. Again, as others have said, the pay is better... but a lot more of it (at least in my experience) is managing others. If that's something that you think you might be interested in, then I say go for it.

Regardless of what decision you ultimately decide to make, I wish you the best of luck and hope that you'll do what you feel is best for YOU.

[Alatheia]

Depends on your situation. The one benefit to enlisting now and getting your BA once you've joined is that they have programs in addition to the GI Bill which will help cover your education costs. Getting a BA isn't exactly cheap, so having the government help out with all of your expenses and paying a portion of your tuition is very beneficial. If you can afford to get your BA now, that would probably be the best option.

I tell everyone who asks that joining the Air Force was the best decision I ever made. I only wish I had been more responsible with my time while I was in and didn't spend it all drunk off my ass.

This is my view too. If you're getting financial aid and it is covering all of your education finish it first. If you're paying out of pocket for your education or have loans and such just finish the Associate's first.

[Primus]

Education options will not be an issue for you if you join the military.

Getting commisioned after going enlisted is easy as long as you score decent on the ASVAP, take a technical MOS, and do your job.

In addition, take a look at the revamped GI Bill that is going into effect in August. It is amazing. You can literally get out and get paid as an E-5 with dependants for doing nothing but going to school.

Not to mention loans become a non-issue.

Really, if you get a clearance, college is a non-factor anyways. Going just because your parents want you to is not a good reason to go.

Dropping out of college and doing 4 years in the Navy was the best decision of my life. Besides the educational, financial, and housing benefits, you will be put into situations and experiences you will never have as a civilian.

[Shadowstorm]

I am joining because I want to get out there and explore the world, to become a better person, to be a part of a unit, to become someone in life. I've been to 27 states plus Costa Rica and Germany and I feel like I've been in this state too long. Nice place, but a tad dull. If I don't end up liking it (which I doubt), I can just get out when my contract expires. I believe the standard is four years for enlisted, six for officers, and ten for combat systems officers and pilots, IIRC.

My primary concern is getting educated. I know they'll help me with that. I simply cannot afford to get a BA without some serious financial assistance.

You get to travel around the world. They help you with your education in a fundamental way. They pay for your gas, electricity, and water. You get put into situations civilians don't experience. What's not to like?

I'm speaking to a recruitment officer this week. I'll let you know how things go. I'd like to get this show on the road soon. And despite my familiarity with the military in general, I still don't know a whole lot about the ROTC.

[Generation ABXY]

What's not to like?

The idea of being fodder for the war machine, I imagine.

[Disgustipated]

I am joining because I want to get out there and explore the world, to become a better person, to be a part of a unit, to become someone in life. I've been to 27 states plus Costa Rica and Germany and I feel like I've been in this state too long. Nice place, but a tad dull. If I don't end up liking it (which I doubt), I can just get out when my contract expires. I believe the standard is four years for enlisted, six for officers, and ten for combat systems officers and pilots, IIRC.

My primary concern is getting educated. I know they'll help me with that. I simply cannot afford to get a BA without some serious financial assistance.

You get to travel around the world. They help you with your education in a fundamental way. They pay for your gas, electricity, and water. You get put into situations civilians don't experience. What's not to like?

I'm speaking to a recruitment officer this week. I'll let you know how things go. I'd like to get this show on the road soon. And despite my familiarity with the military in general, I still don't know a whole lot about the ROTC.

But they won't teach you how to NOT be a music elitist\pretentious snob.

:p

[JayK47]

I was in the Army as an enlisted soldier. DO NOT go into the military as an enlisted soldier unless you are not smart enough to do otherwise. I would say, if you are interested in getting an education out of this, go ROTC. You get your education first and a taste for military life, then you go into the military as an officer. And the military treats its officers well. And that cannot be said for enlisted.

[rein]

I am joining because I want to get out there and explore the world, to become a better person, to be a part of a unit, to become someone in life. I've been to 27 states plus Costa Rica and Germany and I feel like I've been in this state too long. Nice place, but a tad dull. If I don't end up liking it (which I doubt), I can just get out when my contract expires. I believe the standard is four years for enlisted, six for officers, and ten for combat systems officers and pilots, IIRC.

My primary concern is getting educated. I know they'll help me with that. I simply cannot afford to get a BA without some serious financial assistance.

You get to travel around the world. They help you with your education in a fundamental way. They pay for your gas, electricity, and water. You get put into situations civilians don't experience. What's not to like?

I'm speaking to a recruitment officer this week. I'll let you know how things go. I'd like to get this show on the road soon. And despite my familiarity with the military in general, I still don't know a whole lot about the ROTC.


Shadow, have you made much progress with the recruiter? My daughter convinced me that she really wants this and went to take the test for becoming a linguist this morning. She passed with flying colors and has applied for an airborne linguist slot that is open. She will know by the end of the week if she got the position. There is also a ground linguist slot open and she will accept it if the airborne postion is filled before her paperwork goes through the proper channels. Regardless, she is only following through if she gets a linguist position even if she has to wait it out. Keep us posted on your progress regardless of what you decide.

[Virtual Pariah]

Get the education first.
It would make less sense to quit what you are already doing to move into the service when the benefits of getting the BA the joining the AF are better than the other way around.
Otherwise, it's harder to go back to school after you have been out for awhile. It's a mindset you have to get back into that may be tough.

You are still young enough to do both and make the best of the situation.

[DeathtollWRX]

Join up right away. While your in go to college as there are alot of programs for that. Get a degree afterward

In my case I joined the Army went to school while I was in and graduated soon thereafter

Once you have your degree you will be out of the military yet have that has as background to get a good job.

Please keep in mind Officers must server a minimum of 8 years unless they changed that.

In those 6 extra years you could be doing something more career oriented.

The Air Force treats all of their people well.

super Ninja Edit

Btw, Military experience plus degree is very strong on the resume. I spent 3 years enlisted in the Army then got out and got educated.

Having the military background is more than the money you gain. It's the hard work ethic and motivation that makes the difference.

I didn't have the attention span to attend college all the way. I'm a very hands on person and the military helped me gain that.

If you decide to go to school first make sure you complete something and not stop half way. Most people I know who went to college ended up dropping out and never going back in.

If you go into the military you have to finish what you started... once you are out you will have alot of cool benefits.

Right now I am buying a house with most of my closing costs lowered and repairs free without having to pay for mortgage insurance.

I also used the GI bill to pay for college.

Whatever you choose be sure you stick with it. In the end do what you want to do and have no regrets.

[Dukefrukem]

I'm confused on why so many people voted for him to get his BA. That's the whole point in going into the military. So they'll pay for it. Why would you get it before you enlist? Are those people who voted for BA also telling him to join ROTC? Because that would be the best bet. You need to work 4 years in the military after graduating though.

[J Arcane]

I'm confused on why so many people voted for him to get his BA. That's the whole point in going into the military. So they'll pay for it. Why would you get it before you enlist? Are those people who voted for BA also telling him to join ROTC? Because that would be the best bet. You need to work 4 years in the military after graduating though.
Because it's easier to become an officer from outside the military than it is within it.

And because an officer makes over twice as much even as a fresh Lieutenant.

And even as a lowly LT is still higher up on the totem pole than an enlisted man.

Yes, the ROTC is a damn good idea if you're going to go that road.

[DeathtollWRX]

Because it's easier to become an officer from outside the military than it is within it.

And because an officer makes over twice as much even as a fresh Lieutenant.

And even as a lowly LT is still higher up on the totem pole than an enlisted man.

Yes, the ROTC is a damn good idea if you're going to go that road.

Don't forget about the 8 years you are required to serve versus the 2 for enlisted

and a 2nd LT doesn't make much more than an enlisted man who is been in for a few years. Don't forget the four years of college it took to become a 2nd lt. An NCO can be had in much less than two years and an NCO would probably make more.

If he just wanted a college degree then skip the military altogether. Get a four year degree then get a job. Even middle grade officers don't get much pay considering the hours spent.

Do the miltary thing for the purpose of getting in and getting out
(2 years). You will NEVER make good money in the military. They pay you with benefits and not cold hard cash.

I do agree that being comissioned is a much higher job *think blue collar vs white* there are more sacrifices to be made being an officer.

[cp#]

Other: don't.

[Shadowstorm]

Some things have changed. Goal has been altered a bit. Goal: enlist immediately in the USAF Reserves while they pay for college as far as getting a BA in IT. Transfer into Active Duty when I obtain said BA, or shortly there after. Work 20 years, retire with a pension. Work another 20 years in the private sector, retire with another pension.

The first step, my recruiter (MSgt, ~30-35 years old, I'd say) said, was to take the ASVAB, which I took Tuesday. He called just now with the results and said that I did, "exceptionally well. You qualify for a ton of jobs." He really seemed to be emphasizing the exceptionally part. I am glad. Meeting him again Monday morning @ 9.

Just wanted to give those interested a quick update as per request. I had almost forgotten about this thread.

[Doogie2K]

*high-five*

[Ultima Thulian]

Very nice, man. Keep kicking ass.

[Johan]

Good job!

Fifteen years ago, when I was a whisker away from joining, they just didn't need people as much and didn't express enough interest. They could have had me, but I went overseas to live and teach instead.

Best wishes for your career. I respect your choice.

[Purple Santa]

Some things have changed. Goal has been altered a bit. Goal: enlist immediately in the USAF Reserves while they pay for college as far as getting a BA in IT. Transfer into Active Duty when I obtain said BA, or shortly there after. Work 20 years, retire with a pension. Work another 20 years in the private sector, retire with another pension.

The first step, my recruiter (MSgt, ~30-35 years old, I'd say) said, was to take the ASVAB, which I took Tuesday. He called just now with the results and said that I did, "exceptionally well. You qualify for a ton of jobs." He really seemed to be emphasizing the exceptionally part. I am glad. Meeting him again Monday morning @ 9.

Just wanted to give those interested a quick update as per request. I had almost forgotten about this thread.

Congrats on all this. I'm glad you went with this choice. I know a few family friends who went this route...they are doing very well for themselves now.

[JRR006]

Congrats on your good test scores, and good luck and good fortune now that you've made your decision! :)

[Crowe]

Well done mate, a pat on the back.

[Primus]

Don't forget about the 8 years you are required to serve versus the 2 for enlisted

and a 2nd LT doesn't make much more than an enlisted man who is been in for a few years. Don't forget the four years of college it took to become a 2nd lt. An NCO can be had in much less than two years and an NCO would probably make more.

If he just wanted a college degree then skip the military altogether. Get a four year degree then get a job. Even middle grade officers don't get much pay considering the hours spent.

Do the miltary thing for the purpose of getting in and getting out
(2 years). You will NEVER make good money in the military. They pay you with benefits and not cold hard cash.

I do agree that being comissioned is a much higher job *think blue collar vs white* there are more sacrifices to be made being an officer.

As a former enlisted I agree with everything he has said, except for the enlisted = blue collar. I sat on my ass for 4 years in AC maintain servers my entire enlistment. The most important decision you make in the military is your MOS/rate. The people complaining about their military experience are the idiots who chose "Shit Digger" for their job when they went to MEPS. We have a saying in the Navy; Choose your rate choose your fate.

As I said, go enlisted, take a technical rate that will require a clearance. Your best options are there, officer life is not nearly as glorious as it seems.

[rein]

Congrats Shadowstorm. It sounds like you have a solid plan. It will probably work out better than winging it through life like I have so far. :D

[Purple Santa]

Congrats Shadowstorm. It sounds like you have a solid plan. It will probably work out better than winging it through life like I have so far. :D

Hey winging it isn't so bad. It only took me 25 yrs to figure out my life...ok, so many winging it isn't a good plan :)

[OldeWolf]

Guess this is a good place as any to ask this question: Are there any deaf people in the military of all branches? I have yet to hear one peep about Deaf people joining up.

[diablopath]

Guess this is a good place as any to ask this question: Are there any deaf people in the military of all branches? I have yet to hear one peep about Deaf people joining up.

I'm 99% sure being deaf is a disqualification.

[OldeWolf]

I'm 99% sure being deaf is a disqualification.

I think that's pretty ironic considering that deaf people often have better eye coordination than hearing people for many visual tasks. Ah well *Shrugs*

[diablopath]

I think that's pretty ironic considering that deaf people often have better eye coordination than hearing people for many visual tasks. Ah well *Shrugs*

But a huge part of the military life is based on taking orders. Verbally. They're not going to want to rely on flash cards or a translator in combat.

The military is very strict on medical/physical qualities. I got disqualified due to something that doesn't affect me anymore, for instance.

[OldeWolf]

Deaf people like me are very quick readers so all they have to do is type up the orders instead of verbally saying it. All I will need is a visor that sends the caption across the lower end of the screen and I would read it quickly and not be distracted by environmental noise (ie. piloting a Predator Drone). I know the technology for that visor is here today, no need for primitive flash cards or interpreters.

Edit: Oh, and I also have high talking skills (can both talk and sign equally well) so if they rely a captioned order, I can talk in the mic attached to the visor.

[diablopath]

Deaf people like me are very quick readers so all they have to do is type up the orders instead of verbally saying it. All I will need is a visor that sends the caption across the lower end of the screen and I would read it quickly and not be distracted by environmental noise (ie. piloting a Predator Drone). I know the technology for that visor is here today, no need for primitive flash cards or interpreters.

Edit: Oh, and I also have high talking skills (can both talk and sign equally well) so if they rely a captioned order, I can talk in the mic attached to the visor.

I really think this is a very basic thing and you're missing the point entirely.
The technology you speak of may exist, but it would not be effective in combat. Which is the entire point of the military.

There are certain conditions you must meet to be eligible for military service. Having all five senses fit into the "Required" column. It's not discrimination or anything, it's just practicality.

[OldeWolf]

Oh, I'm not missing any points in it's entirety. I have been living my whole life being reminded of those points. And in the end, I have to end up reminding everyone else that they're missing the point that Deaf people can do some functions better than hearing people, namely the eye sights. Plus, in the military, not everything is action orientated such as piloting a Predator Drone in Utah (and by action orientated, I mean being there in person, physically fighting with military trainings and quick reaction timings that requires sounds among other things). Heck, even a deaf person can be a very good sniper.

The point is, there are a lot of things inside many branches that doesn't require sounds to function at full capacity. G.I.Jane has proven that females can keep up with the men despite the physical differences and being generally the weaker of the two. Deaf people can make up for it with better eyesight trainings and better reaction timing, etc.

This is why we Deaf people always have to daily stand up and tell people that we can do nearly any thing hearing people can do, except hear. Hearing people really take hearing things for granted and not see any other solutions and methods out there, just as men in the old days thinks men are superior than females until the females had enough and put an end to that.

Sorry for the mini rant, but I do not like it when people tell me I cant do something when there is clearly another way to doing the same function.

[flogging.joey]

The idea of being fodder for the war machine, I imagine.

Coast Guard hooooo!

[J Arcane]

Sorry for the mini rant, but I do not like it when people tell me I cant do something when there is clearly another way to doing the same function.

Then preach to your congressmen and the Pentagon. However, I think you'll find your crusade to be rather futile. If I can't get in just for being a few pounds over the weight, or getting a bit short of breath now and then, something tells me deafness isn't liable to be on the rolls for exemption status any time soon.

It's a military force. A body that exists solely to produce individuals of at least marginally high physical and mental performance, to ensure they will be nothing less than absolutely lethal on the field of combat. Even non-combat personnel are expected to be combat-ready in most arms of the service, under the principle that you never can be sure that those skills won't be needed when you are in a state of war.

It's not a school, it's not the local dance competition, it's not any old office job, it's an army of trained killers. That places upon it certain limits that no amount of knee-jerk liberalism will make go away.

[Shadowstorm]

Guess this is a good place as any to ask this question: Are there any deaf people in the military of all branches? I have yet to hear one peep about Deaf people joining up.

Deafness, or loss of any of the five senses, is (or are) a disqualification when joining the military.

[OldeWolf]

That places upon it certain limits that no amount of knee-jerk liberalism will make go away.

Nice, but my Deafness is not a knee-jerk liberalism. It's a fact of life with a fight for it's own equal standards at par with the hearing standards.

[J Arcane]

Nice, but my Deafness is not a knee-jerk liberalism. It's a fact of life with a fight for it's own equal standards at par with the hearing standards.
I don't see how "You can't hear, you might get shot", is some great defeat of the cause of equality.

Some people really are better suited for some things than others, and this is an area where the effect is pretty damn glaring indeed.

I just think it's a rather silly thing to get one's hackles up and start shouting about, but if it really bothers you so much, feel free to sue someone about it like everyone else does these days. Maybe you'll even succeed, and one day some guy like Shadowstorm can get killed because his deaf squadmate didn't hear the patrol come up behind him or the gun go off or the IED click.

[diablopath]

Nice, but my Deafness is not a knee-jerk liberalism. It's a fact of life with a fight for it's own equal standards at par with the hearing standards.

You have gone completely off topic from your original question, mate. I don't think anybody here is saying anything negative about deaf folks.

You asked if deaf people were in the military, and we all answered that and explained why. Turning it into a civil rights discussion is asinine.

J.A., though harsh, is right. If there would be a chance that your situation could get somebody killed, they don't want you. It's very simple.

[OldeWolf]

Some people really are better suited for some things than others, and this is an area where the effect is pretty damn glaring indeed.

Precisely, which is why not everyone in the military is a pure-trained fighter. Some are just simple computer technicians or mechanics or radio control operators (to name a few) because they don't have the ability to be a buffed up flesh war machine. That is precisely why I mentioned that Deaf people can play roles better in some areas than others above hearing people's abilities but of course that has been passed over with attention focused singularly only on hearing people's merits.

I ask the first question because there is a greater purpose behind the question and I am not superficial nor passive enough to lay down when hearing people says to play dead about a topic that favors them.

There are many roles that Deaf people can play anywhere on earth. There are many roles of various kinds Hearing people cannot play too well on earth too. That's why I believe that the military of all branches should put the Deaf people to use where they're most fit to be used based on physical abilities, mental abilities, high end eyesight trainings, high tech visors, intense squad sign language trainings, and many more.

But then again, this thread points out one thing; such possible solutions and new approaches are shut off quickly. Seems pretty familiar as I've seen the same in G.I.Jane. I'm not a military minded man but I do keep in mind that there are a lot of Deaf people that can do very well in the military due to their unique abilities with eyes and trained hypersensitive reactions to what's going on around them, faster than a hearing person if trained right. The possibilities are endless.

I know the comments aren't meant to be "negative" about deaf folks but it's still an automatic assumption that Deaf people can't do it, can't find a way to benefit the military (not to mention anything else on this planet). I'm merely pointing out many of the possibilities, hopefully opening up some sort of a more open mentality and understanding about this in anyone who bothers to try.

[J Arcane]

Precisely, which is why not everyone in the military is a pure-trained fighter. Some are just simple computer technicians or mechanics or radio control operators (to name a few) because they don't have the ability to be a buffed up flesh war machine.

Anyone who joins a military branch without the expectation of entering open warfare is an idiot.

Just because your official position is not a front-line combat one, does not mean that it will not become one, which is why even in the supposedly cushy Air Force they have strict physical fitness and health standards. My grandfather was supposed to be a mechanic, but he got dropped into hot zones through both the Korean and Vietnam Wars, and you can damn sure bet money they didn't say "Oh, you're just a mechanic, we won't expect you to fight or even warn us of an ambush or an incoming enemy force from behind."

Shit, if you want to throw around movie references like they mean a damn thing to reality, how about Full Metal Jacket. Remember how much combat the lead character got in, despite supposedly being a journalist of all things? shit, their base got attacked and he and everyone else, non-combat or not, were there manning the sandbags and the machine guns.

This isn't a discrimination issue, it is a life and death issue. People could fucking DIE if any man in service in a situation like that is anything less than combat-capable to the maximum possible level. Do you understand that? Do you understand that this is a situation where actual lives are on the line while your weird little workarounds are being blundered through because they aren't anything like the standard order of operations?

This isn't some desk job back in the civilian world we're talking about, this is an armed force commissioned to defend itself and the people to the best of it's ability, and part of ensuring that duty can be withheld is holding it's servicemen to a high standard of physical and mental performance and fitness.

That's the way it works. You don't hear me whining because I can't get in because I'm too fat, or because I'm legally blind, or have a heart condition. If anything, I respect them for making that decision, because I understand how important it is. Had I subverted those requirements, and lied or sued or snuck my way into the service, I'd be placing the lives of every man I served with at risk should I proved to be anything less than combat material when the shit hit the fan.

This isn't something that can be made to go away with empty platitudes and snowflake rambling and ALCU lawsuits. It's a cold, hard reality of war, and one that will never go away, ever, no matter how much you want to believe it can.

[Primus]

The reason our military is so powerful is because of its communication abilities. Limiting these abilities is not a good thing.

I was a computer tech and I was sent out on convoys regularly, convoys that were entirely dependent on radio comms. Lots of crazy shit happened on those trips.

When our FOB was hit with RPGs at the night the only warnings we got were from the big-voice system and of course the initial sound of the impact.

Deaf people aren't useless, but they don't belong in a combat zone.

[diablopath]

But then again, this thread points out one thing; such possible solutions and new approaches are shut off quickly. Seems pretty familiar as I've seen the same in G.I.Jane. I'm not a military minded man but I do keep in mind that there are a lot of Deaf people that can do very well in the military due to their unique abilities with eyes and trained hypersensitive reactions to what's going on around them, faster than a hearing person if trained right. The possibilities are endless.

Then I do not think you quite understand what you're arguing here. The military does not consist of a bunch of idiot assholes who are afraid to try new things. But they have very strict requirements that *must* be met. I don't think you have any place suggesting somebody can do very well in a certain field while at the same time admitting you're not really informed of that field.

We are not being close minded or arrogant, as it seems you are implying. The fact of the matter is, if you're in the military, you're expected to be able to do certain things. There are an endless amount of scenarios where having a soldier who could not hear would be detrimental to a situation, *ESPECIALLY* in combat. This would get people killed.

EDIT: And I'm aware that you're not talking about being in combat, but other tasks. Like we've said two or three times already, it doesn't matter what your MOS, AFSC or Rate is, you will be expected to function in a combat zone. That's part of being in the military.

[Johan]

The Deaf in the Military. (http://www.danbury.org/moderndeafcommunication/deaf_in_military.htm)

Deaf Soldiers. (http://www.deafdc.com/blog/shane-feldman/2007-02-15/deaf-soldiers/)

Deaf People and WW II. (http://www.rit.edu/ntid/ccs/deafww2/)

The deaf are currently disqualified from service in the U.S. military. PDF. (http://www.army.mil/usapa/epubs/pdf/r40_501.pdf)

Things change, however. :shrugs:

[OldeWolf]

The Deaf in the Military. (http://www.danbury.org/moderndeafcommunication/deaf_in_military.htm)

Deaf Soldiers. (http://www.deafdc.com/blog/shane-feldman/2007-02-15/deaf-soldiers/)

Deaf People and WW II. (http://www.rit.edu/ntid/ccs/deafww2/)

The deaf are currently disqualified from service in the U.S. military. PDF. (http://www.army.mil/usapa/epubs/pdf/r40_501.pdf)

Things change, however. :shrugs:

Thank you tons, Johan. Those are exactly the points I'm trying to get across here.

And considering that technology with video phones are becoming widely spread, it's much much easier for deaf people to talk across the long distances between bases or mobile units or even countries.

There's so many things in here that Deaf people can do, it's limitless. All it requires is a change of policies when recruiting deaf people and making sure they function fully behind the line with basic combat training for emergency scenarios where they need to jump in and save the day (like that reporter mentioned). Being Deaf wont stop the two hands working and the 2 eyeballs working when shooting the bad guys across the field and many more. But the whole point is to incorporate them into the behind-the-line positions using deaf people as last resort in throwing them into hot zones. Also, Deaf people will be far more effective in communicating under fire than hearing people due to loud noise confusing vocal commands shouted across the room or long distance, etc should the radio be broken or need radio silence.

The possibilities are endless and people in the military today (the brasses) are close minded for now. The articles that Johan put in here clearly shows the possibilities, so I am not the only one.

And yes, the reality of war is a gruesome one that doesn't care if you're deaf or hearing, or if your arms is blown off and the only person there to save you is a deaf man that is shooting the shit out of bad guys to keep you alive and pull you to safety. War and death doesn't care what you have as a person.

[Expugnare]

The Deaf in the Military. (http://www.danbury.org/moderndeafcommunication/deaf_in_military.htm)

Deaf Soldiers. (http://www.deafdc.com/blog/shane-feldman/2007-02-15/deaf-soldiers/)

Deaf People and WW II. (http://www.rit.edu/ntid/ccs/deafww2/)

The deaf are currently disqualified from service in the U.S. military. PDF. (http://www.army.mil/usapa/epubs/pdf/r40_501.pdf)

Things change, however. :shrugs:

None of those links show a case where a deaf person successfully served in combat. :confused:

Even if there was a viable solution for deaf people to join the armed services, such as scrolling text HUDs, it cost the government most likely millions of dollars for a disproportionate amount of new soldiers that, like it or not, are not as combat ready as a hearing person. In the middle of combat, no one is going to take the time to type or sign "GET DOWN!" instead of holding a weapon if a base or convoy comes under attack. To pour money into research to enable the deaf to serve, it would detract from funding for better weapons, armor, vehicles, etc. that would better serve existing troops. As others have said before, when the shit hits the fan, every man is expected to serve and it would force the military to exempt a deaf behind-the-lines worker when everyone else was being sent. Would that be fair to all the hearing that have to be in harm's way?

It just simply isn't practical enough to work.

[OldeWolf]

None of those links show a case where a deaf person successfully served in combat. :confused:

Even if there was a viable solution for deaf people to join the armed services, such as scrolling text HUDs, it cost the government most likely millions of dollars for a disproportionate amount of new soldiers that, like it or not, are not as combat ready as a hearing person. In the middle of combat, no one is going to take the time to type or sign "GET DOWN!" instead of holding a weapon if a base or convoy comes under attack. To pour money into research to enable the deaf to serve, it would detract from funding for better weapons, armor, vehicles, etc. that would better serve existing troops. As others have said before, when the shit hits the fan, every man is expected to serve and it would force the military to exempt a deaf behind-the-lines worker when everyone else was being sent. Would that be fair to all the hearing that have to be in harm's way?

It just simply isn't practical enough to work.

Wow, just wow.

ASL, American Sign Language. Nothing to do with investing millions of dollars into technology for the Deaf. In fact, a lot of military folks use sign languages already in their own squads. And I am just as combat ready as the next guy. Just give me a gun and I bet you I can eagle eye a target and snipe it. I've done it most of my child hood with BB guns and other guns given to me and more recently, head shotting my ex-wife in the forehead 20 times with a paintball gun.

It just simply amazes me that the mindset is like this with only Johan seeing my point.

Whatever. Have at it since such mindset is not going to change for a while just like white people thinks Black wont be able to do stuff until they had to prove it (i.e. "Men of Honor" based on true story) or women having to prove they're just as good as men working in factories during WWII.

Go on, keep being biased even after I made valid points across the spectrum of potentials and possibilities. It's like talking to a wall so I'm out.

Thanks again, Johan.

[Expugnare]

Wow, just wow.

ASL, American Sign Language. Nothing to do with investing millions of dollars into technology for the Deaf. In fact, a lot of military folks use sign languages already in their own squads. And I am just as combat ready as the next guy. Just give me a gun and I bet you I can eagle eye a target and snipe it. I've done it most of my child hood with BB guns and other guns given to me and more recently, head shotting my ex-wife in the forehead 20 times with a paintball gun.

It just simply amazes me that the mindset is like this with only Johan seeing my point.

Whatever. Have at it since such mindset is not going to change for a while just like white people thinks Black wont be able to do stuff until they had to prove it (i.e. "Men of Honor" based on true story) or women having to prove they're just as good as men working in factories during WWII.

Go on, keep being biased even after I made valid points across the spectrum of potentials and possibilities. It's like talking to a wall so I'm out.

Thanks again, Johan.

Are you ignorant or intentionally dense? I said that your proposed HUD system with text screen visors would cost a fortune in R&D.

Next, I highly doubt you can "snipe" anything as only the best of the best in our military is given the honor of enrolling in Scout Sniper training and then only half of them ever end up holding the rifle. Becoming a sniper is not a matter of placing a scope on a high powered rifle.

Blacks, women, Asians, Hispanics, Indians (both feather and dot) and even Eskimos all have the same senses as a white male. It isn't a matter of would it be possible, it is a balance between is it practical for combat situations and would this endanger any other soldier on the battlefield.

[diablopath]

Whatever. Have at it since such mindset is not going to change for a while just like white people thinks Black wont be able to do stuff until they had to prove it (i.e. "Men of Honor" based on true story) or women having to prove they're just as good as men working in factories during WWII.

Get the fuck off your high horse. You no place insinuating that anybody is just some discriminatory asshole. Look, we understand your plight. I understand that you have to face things in life that hearing people wouldn't. That sucks, and you have my sympathy.

But that does not mean you'd make a good soldier. Every post in this thread has been the same exact point. You are the one ignoring it, not we.

[Shadowstorm]

So guys, not to get my thread back on the rails, but I just got back from the base. I've got a few options as far as what I want to do as a direct result of my ASVAB score.

If you guys would like, I photocopied some of the documents that details the positions that they currently have available (ones that I'd be interested in). I can give these a bit more detail later on tonight ...



Integrated Avionics Systems (15k bonus; basic December 15th)
Aerospace Maintenance Apprentice (20k bonus; basic 15 Dec or 9 Feb)
Aircraft Electrical and Environmental System Apprentice (20k bonus; 13 April (eek)).

[Shadowstorm]

P.S, I've never taken a physics course.

[astranoir]

So guys, not to get my thread back on the rails, but I just got back from the base. I've got a few options as far as what I want to do as a direct result of my ASVAB score.

If you guys would like, I photocopied some of the documents that details the positions that they currently have available (ones that I'd be interested in). I can give these a bit more detail later on tonight ...



Integrated Avionics Systems (15k bonus; basic December 15th)
Aerospace Maintenance Apprentice (20k bonus; basic 15 Dec or 9 Feb)
Aircraft Electrical and Environmental System Apprentice (20k bonus; 13 April (eek)).




#2 sounds really cool :)

[Doogie2K]

So guys, not to get my thread back on the rails, but I just got back from the base. I've got a few options as far as what I want to do as a direct result of my ASVAB score.

If you guys would like, I photocopied some of the documents that details the positions that they currently have available (ones that I'd be interested in). I can give these a bit more detail later on tonight ...



Integrated Avionics Systems (15k bonus; basic December 15th)
Aerospace Maintenance Apprentice (20k bonus; basic 15 Dec or 9 Feb)
Aircraft Electrical and Environmental System Apprentice (20k bonus; 13 April (eek)).



I dunno what exactly each entails, but #2 honestly sounds like a glorified mechanic's position (which is why I assume I'm wrong). Either of the other two sound like they could be cool, though.

[diablopath]

Just research them and decide what you want to do. If you find another job you want a lot more, and qualify for it, just wait for an opening. You said your plan is to do this for 20 years. Do not settle.

[Inspector Fowler]

A note about enlistment bonuses:

One of our dispatchers is a medic in a Reserve unit. He's pretty awesome. Combat medic is obviously a very needed position, and since it's hard to fill he got offered a $20,000 enlistment bonus.

Just be aware that a LOT of things can disqualify you for the bonus - things you can't control. If you get delayed even one week in training they will take it away - so if you break your ankle coming down from an obstacle course event, say goodbye to the money. If you are in a particularly challenging MOS, and you fail a part of the MOS training and must be held back, say goodbye to the money. My dispatcher buddy was really sweating his final exams/whatever they call 'em for his medic training, because getting held back at all meant losing his entire bonus.

So just be aware of that when you pick the MOS - the bonuses are very difficult to obtain sometimes. Not to discourage you! I just know some people who have picked an MOS based on the enlistment bonus, and knowing now how tricky they make it to pick up the bonus, I would recommend picking something you'll enjoy first, and worrying about the bonus later.

Good luck for you no matter what you choose. I still regret never going into the military and I have endless respect for those who choose to serve.

[Doogie2K]

Does anyone know if you actually have to be an officer in order to work for military R&D, or just pass security clearance? Seems like a silly question, but I figure prosthetics work might take me in that direction (the military are, unfortunately, ravenous consumers of such things), so I figure I might as well know in advance, because I sure wouldn't be combat-qualified, between asthma, partial colour-blindness, astigmatism, and being a soft 5'11"/170 lbs.

[Johan]

There's so many things in here that Deaf people can do, it's limitless. All it requires is a change of policies when recruiting deaf people and making sure they function fully behind the line with basic combat training for emergency scenarios where they need to jump in and save the day (like that reporter mentioned).

It's a matter of time. Things change, and this will too. :)

But that does not mean you'd make a good soldier. Every post in this thread has been the same exact point.

The ability to hear is not what makes a good soldier. Plenty of hearing people are lousy soldiers. Hearing impairment should not preclude someone from a role in the military, even if some specialties are disallowed due to their own special requirements.

Personally, I think the military should take virtually anyone who wants to serve and has some basic capacity to do so. Anyone. Yes, I mean anyone...not a quadriplegic of course, but the point is...anyone.

[Shadowstorm]

So guys, not to get my thread back on the rails, but I just got back from the base. I've got a few options as far as what I want to do as a direct result of my ASVAB score.

If you guys would like, I photocopied some of the documents that details the positions that they currently have available (ones that I'd be interested in). I can give these a bit more detail later on tonight ...



Integrated Avionics Systems (15k bonus; basic December 15th)
Aerospace Maintenance Apprentice (20k bonus; basic 15 Dec or 9 Feb)
Aircraft Electrical and Environmental System Apprentice (20k bonus; 13 April (eek)).



I dunno what exactly each entails,

Let's start with number one (Integrated Avionics Systems). Reading from the sheet ...

In this AFSC, you will be operating and maintaining avionics systems. Your job will consist of isolating malfunctions in avionics systems, radar, integrated test systems built-in-test (BIT), recording systems, video display systems, and various other systems. You will remove, install, check, and repair avionics systems and line replaceable units (LRU). You will be using technical orders, schematics, wiring diagrams, and so forth, to diagnose malfunctions.

An Integrated Avionics Systems Apprentice updates operational logs, inspection records, aircraft forms, and automated maintenance systems. They also perform and supervise alignment, calibration, and bore sight of avionics systems, using uploaded maintenance and operational software.

You will be responsible for inspecting and evaluating aircraft maintenance activities. Part of your job will entail inspecting and verifying operational status and configuration of avionics systems and software. You will resolve problems with maintenance and supply. You will also prepare aircraft for low altitude attack profiles, precision bombing, covert operations, and reconnaissance.

In this highly technical career field, you could be assigned into any of these the suffixes listed below. You could also perform as the aircraft Dedicated Crew Chief.

[etc etc etc.]It goes on to list mandatory test scores, location of tech schools, and desirables (physics, mathematics, computers, and high school graduate, it says here).

Number two is Aerospace Maintenance Apprentice ...

You will perform scheduled inspections, functional checks, and preventive maintenance on aircraft and aircraft installed equipment. Prior to flight, you will inspect and perform various functional checks of the aircraft as well as ensure that the aircraft has been properly serviced with fuel, hydraulic fluid and liquid oxygen. After flight, you will be responsible for ensuring the aircraft is still in operational ready condition. You will maintain and repair all parts of the aircraft, performing general mechnical work as oposed to working on a particular system or subsystem. If during any of your inspections a malfunction occurs, you will request, through maintenance control, assistance from teh shop concerned (engine, electrician, etc). A specialist will be dispatched and you will assist in completing the maintenance on your aircraft.Desirables are: high school graduate, basic electronics (cake), physics (never taken a physics course), and pneudralics (what?).

Last one is Aircraft Electrical and Environmental System Apprentice.

In this job, you will be working on virtually every electrical and environmental (E&E) system on the aircraft. These systems include landing gear, anti-skid and nose steering, electronic engine control, ignition and starting, lighting, master caution and warning, flight control, cabin pressurization, air conditioning, etc.

You will be learning about electrical, electronic, and mechanical principles relating to E&E systems. You will receive training in reading blueprints, schematics, and meaning of symbols used in wiring diagrams.

You will perform off-equipment maintenance on E&E system components and associated test equipment. Included are control, protection, caution and warning panels, lighting equipment, frequency and load controls, anti-0icing controllers, voltage regulators, actuators, relays, motors, and valves, etc.

Your job will be to inspect and evaluate aircraft E&E maintenance activities and determine operational status of assigned assets. You will interpret inspection finding sand determine corrective actions and ensure compliance with technical publications and directives.With the desirables for this one being: high school graduate, basic electronics, mechanics, mathematics, and general science.

[diablopath]

It's a matter of time. Things change, and this will too. :)

The ability to hear is not what makes a good soldier. Plenty of hearing people are lousy soldiers. Hearing impairment should not preclude someone from a role in the military, even if some specialties are disallowed due to their own special requirements.

Personally, I think the military should take virtually anyone who wants to serve and has some basic capacity to do so. Anyone. Yes, I mean anyone...not a quadriplegic of course, but the point is...anyone.

Are you two just fucking with me now?

[J Arcane]

Are you two just fucking with me now?
It's Johan. He's trolling. What else would he do? It's not like he actually plays games.

[Johan]

Are you two just fucking with me now?

You don't have to like my opinion for me to be comfortable with it. You don't need hearing to play a role in the military. Eventually, deaf people will be allowed into a number of roles in the services. It's just a matter of time.

Will they engage in direct combat? Probably not. Hearing, however, doesn't make a good soldier. Plenty of hearing soldiers suck at what they do. Plenty of them don't. It's acutely necessary for some roles, but not for all.

[Expugnare]

You don't have to like my opinion for me to be comfortable with it. You don't need hearing to play a role in the military. Eventually, deaf people will be allowed into a number of roles in the services. It's just a matter of time.

Will they engage in direct combat? Probably not. Hearing, however, doesn't make a good soldier. Plenty of hearing soldiers suck at what they do. Plenty of them don't. It's acutely necessary for some roles, but not for all.

But all soldiers need to be ready at a moment's notice to engage in direct combat. No one here has denied that the deaf could do noncombatative work within the military.

[Johan]

But all soldiers need to be ready at a moment's notice to engage in direct combat.

No, they don't. You don't actually think that every soldier is engaged in a front-line role, do you? That's...interesting, and wrong.

In fact, a number of "combat" specialties are now based on American soil and utilize remote satellite capabilities to direct combat. You don't need hearing to do that. You need computing skills.

Many other roles in the military don't require combat-oriented skills.

It's merely a matter of time before it's allowed. If people want to serve, a role should be found for them to do so.

[Expugnare]

No, they don't. You don't actually think that every soldier is engaged in a front-line role, do you? That's...interesting, and wrong.

In fact, a number of "combat" specialties are now based on American soil and utilize remote satellite capabilities to direct combat. You don't need hearing to do that. You need computing skills.

Many other roles in the military don't require combat-oriented skills.

No, I don't. But if the shit hits the fan and we end up in a world war scenario or with a homeland invasion, every person in the military is expected to be able to enter combat. That is why there are such rigorous physical expectations for all members of the military, even for the guys who sit at a desk and monitor satellites and guide unmanned vehicles. If the US began to lose a war on US soil, you can damn well expect every man and woman in the military to be seeing some form of direct combat.

[Johan]

If the US began to lose a war on US soil, you can damn well expect every man and woman in the military to be seeing some form of direct combat.

If we're losing a war on U.S. soil, which apparently means that there is still a U.S. at that point and not a nuclear annihilation of the world, then I'm pretty sure the 200 million weapons in the hands of U.S. citizens will be a lot more important at that point than the few dozen potentially deaf service members in the military in this hypothetical future.

It's inevitable, with some obvious limitations. They can serve in a number of roles. They're not allowed right now, but there's no reason they can't serve in some roles.

The stereotype of the perfectly fit soldier is breaking down. (http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2003728835_amputees31.html) People don't need to be "whole" physically to serve, whatever the hell "whole" means (as you can be "whole" while being deaf, or blind, or what have you).

[Generation ABXY]

WOLVERINES!!!e

[diablopath]

http://www.nerve.com/CS/blogs/61fps/2009/01/facepalm.jpg

[OldeWolf]

Aw screw this.

I guarantee you that I can find at least 1 deaf person on this planet that can be an excellent combat soldier because Johan has a very valid point; not every hearing people are good soldiers just because they can hear. There are a lot of Deaf people out there that have a lot of better reaction timings and skills far above many of the hearing soldiers already in service and I bet you that many Deaf recruits will outperform some of the hearing recruits simply based on physical merits on the training field. I've seen Deaf paintball teams wipe out skilled hearing paintball teams because they have better coordination, communication and skills over the other hearing team on the paintball battlefield. There is a Deaf UFC fighter and he's well respected. I've gone through 4 years of wrestling as the only Deaf person on the team or in the region in Arizona and I ended up as Captain of the team despite the fact that I can't hear and talk clear without my hearing aide during practice/training yet I lead the team, helping many of them reach regional and State.

I could go on and on about the merits of overlooking deafness and looking at the capacity of the human being in question, fitting that person within the appropriate areas based on their own skills and conditioning/training including combat.

Believe what you want, I and Johan knows the merits of Deaf people out there.

[Johan]

Pentagon eases weight rules for recruits. (http://www.deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,705275226,00.html)

Pentagon allows amputees back into combat. (http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2003728835_amputees31.html)

The Pentagon has lowered academic and background standards.

Blind soldier allowed to stay in the military to continue his career. (http://hamptonroads.com/node/129641) He's BLIND! Oh NOEZ! The U.S. is ill-equipped to defend against invasion!

The Pentagon and White House are currently reviewing policies about gays in the military.

It's just a matter of time. If you want to serve, you can...and should be able to. I have people in my family who are profoundly affected by hearing loss, and they are quite capable.

On a related note, I will be attending an Army football game for the first time in fifteen years later this fall. I already bought my plane ticket and CANNOT WAIT FOR THE GAME! My family has had season tickets for going on three or four decades (since I was a little kid), but I haven't been to a game in years, and this is our last season. My dad is too old to continue, as is my uncle. My brother would love to continue, but I live too far away.

Can't wait for the damn game. GO ARMY! Michie Stadium is the bees knees, man. Awesome place for a game. The cadets rock, too!

Edit:

"On brave old Army team,
On to the fraaaaaaay!
Fight on to victory,
For that's the fearless Army way!"

:D

[J Arcane]

Believe what you want, I and Johan knows the merits of Deaf people out there.
I'd reconsider the motives of your chosen supporter, if I were you.

[diablopath]

I'd reconsider the motives of your chosen supporter, if I were you.

I think they're just drunk.

[Shadowstorm]

My thread's been fucked up beyond repair.

[Johan]

My thread's been fucked up beyond repair.

Welcome to the Internet. :(

I thought it was interesting, actually! Thank you!

[Generation ABXY]

My thread's been fucked up beyond repair.

Behold! The Power of Cheese CoG...

Honestly, I can't think of a thread we haven't fucked up in some way; it's quite remarkable, really.

[OldeWolf]

Behold! The Power of Cheese CoG...

Honestly, I can't think of a thread we haven't fucked up in some way; it's quite remarkable, really.

Agreed :p

*And is a non-alcoholic drinker*

Reason why I have high respect for Johan is because he puts out solid evidences of what the Government has done in this situation along with what he has stood for in his many other threads. We're both alike in that we challenge set norms and for good reasons.

The world is changing, just accept it.

[rein]

So guys, not to get my thread back on the rails, but I just got back from the base. I've got a few options as far as what I want to do as a direct result of my ASVAB score.

If you guys would like, I photocopied some of the documents that details the positions that they currently have available (ones that I'd be interested in). I can give these a bit more detail later on tonight ...



Integrated Avionics Systems (15k bonus; basic December 15th)
Aerospace Maintenance Apprentice (20k bonus; basic 15 Dec or 9 Feb)
Aircraft Electrical and Environmental System Apprentice (20k bonus; 13 April (eek)).


Have you decided? My daughter got the job she wanted today. She leaves January 5th. I can't even think about it without tearing up. Fortunately she told me over the phone and I have not seen her face to face all day. I am hoping I can man up and not cry when I do see her. Gosh I've become so emotional lately.

[Shadowstorm]

I have reached the decision (today in fact, but I'll inform my recruiter tomorrow morning).


Aerospace Maintenance Apprentice (20k bonus; basic 15 Dec or 9 Feb)

The bonus isn't my primary motivation, like a lot of people have asked me. I copied the description on the post you quoted, rein. Well, it says there that it's general mechanical work (in other words: not specialized, like I would not be working on one subsystem of a C5/C17). I think I would find this more rewarding, so I am going to go for it. The bonus is just the extra layer on top of the cake, to be honest. I will use that money very wisely. I am interested in investing in a long-term stay in an apartment downtown, as well as paying off my bike (2006 Katana 600, which I'll be getting my license for after I complete the MSF course in September), and my college loans. I'm sure there are other things to account for, but this is my plan.

Like I mentioned previously, the ultimate goal is: Reserves -> complete Associate's degree > transfer colleges > complete BA in IT two years later (I don't want to take a semester off unless it's absolutely necessary) -> transfer into Active duty after completion of BA as an officer. Work 20 years, retire from the military, get a pension. Work another 20 years in the private sector, get another pension.

I will not deviate from my goal.

[rein]

I have reached the decision (today in fact, but I'll inform my recruiter tomorrow morning).


Aerospace Maintenance Apprentice (20k bonus; basic 15 Dec or 9 Feb)

The bonus isn't my primary motivation, like a lot of people have asked me. I copied the description on the post you quoted, rein. Well, it says there that it's general mechanical work (in other words: not specialized, like I would not be working on one subsystem of a C5/C17). I think I would find this more rewarding, so I am going to go for it. The bonus is just the extra layer on top of the cake, to be honest. I will use that money very wisely. I am interested in investing in a long-term stay in an apartment downtown, as well as paying off my bike (2006 Katana 600, which I'll be getting my license for after I complete the MSF course in September), and my college loans. I'm sure there are other things to account for, but this is my plan.

Like I mentioned previously, the ultimate goal is: Reserves -> complete Associate's degree > transfer colleges > complete BA in IT two years later (I don't want to take a semester off unless it's absolutely necessary) -> transfer into Active duty after completion of BA as an officer. Work 20 years, retire from the military, get a pension. Work another 20 years in the private sector, get another pension.

I will not deviate from my goal.Congratulations once again. I'm sure you will do well and it sounds like a very solid plan.

[Johan]

I will not deviate from my goal.

Hope not. Life can be a real bitch sometimes. Good luck!

[Generation ABXY]

Thank you for your service, Shadowstorm, and, of course, good luck.

[Zrikz]

cool deal shadowstorm... I'm kinda in the same boat I think. I've completed all of the paper work for Army OCS (Officer candidate school) as of last Monday and now I'm just waiting for a waiver for my lasik surgery so I can go to MEPS and do all of that fun stuff. Once I finish up with that I will have the Board review hopefully the first week in Sept. Then it looks like I will head out between Dec-Feb, depending on the classes being full. Do basic for 9 weeks and then OCS is even more after that.

good luck to you and keep us updated, I'll do the same!

[Purple Santa]

Hope not. Life can be a real bitch sometimes. Good luck!

That's what I was basically thinking of. But I guess better to have a plan to deviate from than no plan at all.

[Zrikz]

Thread resurrection... swore in Tuesday. I ship out to Ft Benning July 13 for basic, then Sept 27 for OCS. Graduate Dec 20 as a 2nd Lieutenant

[Shadowstorm]

Thread resurrection... swore in Tuesday. I ship out to Ft Benning July 13 for basic, then Sept 27 for OCS. Graduate Dec 20 as a 2nd Lieutenant

Awesome, congrats. I'm dropping out of college to join. I need to get out of here.

[Primus]

Awesome, congrats. I'm dropping out of college to join. I need to get out of here.

Did the same, never looked back. A clearance pretty much equates to a degree in the right fields. Not to mention you have the sweet new GI Bill to cover your ass if needed.

[Shadowstorm]

I'll be on my way to basic training exactly this day next month.

[cassiusregicide]

Did the same, never looked back. A clearance pretty much equates to a degree in the right fields. Not to mention you have the sweet new GI Bill to cover your ass if needed.

QFT. The new GI Bill gives you scads of money, and having a security clearance can open a lot of doors.

[Wasson_]

oh DERP it's still march.

April 19 eh? Should still be decent down there at Lackland, I went October 2nd of 07' and it was actually pretty nice the whole time I was there.

[DeathtollWRX]

I'll be on my way to basic training exactly this day next month.

You are in for one hell of a ride.

If you have to ask questions be sure that you only get advice from people who actually went through it.


Why I like the Army

I bought my house with zero down during a recession.. paid ZERO and got a great rate, I actually made more money than my real estate agent. 8 grand plus about 6 more from paying too much escrow.
...the GI bill paid for my schooling so I have no student loans (it's even better now)
I have never really been turned down for employment.. people like seeing that shit on the resume.

The military gave me an awesome work ethic.

I was part of the greatest fighting force in the history of human civilization!

[Widgetcraft]

Has anyone here been an enlisted man in the Navy? Has anyone here worked in IT in the Navy (or any other branch of the military)? If so, could you share your experiences, both with the job and with life in the military?

[Narradisall]

I was with Deathtoll up until the 'greatest fighting force' part.

Spartans would kick your ass!

[Inspector Fowler]

I was with Deathtoll up until the 'greatest fighting force' part.

Spartans would kick your ass!

S'cool, man, just don't ask for our help the next time the Germans come knocking. You can ask some sissy pants Greek dudes for help. :D

[Expugnare]

Has anyone here been an enlisted man in the Navy? Has anyone here worked in IT in the Navy (or any other branch of the military)? If so, could you share your experiences, both with the job and with life in the military?

I believe Ghostbear was, so if he doesn't see this thread, send him a PM. From his tales in some XBLA game (Carcasonne, maybe?), I don't think he liked it very much.

[Shadowstorm]

Wish me luck :).

[Inspector Fowler]

Yikes! G'bye, we'll keep the internet running for you!

Thanks in advance for your service!

[Jackel]

Good luck Shadow!

[Disgustipated]

Goodbye Shadow... hopefully when you come back you won't be such an elitist snob! Drop me a line if you come to CA. :D

P.S. I'll miss your goofy ass but I'm glad you're taking steps to make your life what you want it to be. I'm proud of you, little nerd.

[civil]

Good luck, thanks for serving and don't forget about us. Keep CoG updated, man.

[Shadowstorm]

I'm back :). That was awesome. On Town Pass now. As of today, I've officially graduated BMT for the USAF. I'll be leaving Monday morning to hit up my tech school for around seven months or so for RF Transmissions Systems.

I'll explain more in detail later :). Thanks again for all the support.

[MrBibbz]

My thread's been fucked up beyond repair.

Hey man I'm going Army in October, but I choose the enlist now and school on my own time. Reserves or not, good for you on making your decision and stepping up to the plate. Not a lot of people would take the step you, myself or many of the men or women serving in the armed forces have taken.

When you get in, put your nose to the grind stone and just grind it out. Keep us updated as to what's happening for you.

[Wasson_]

atta boy shadowstorm. good job putting up with it so far :)

[roboninja]

Cool, dude. I missed this thread the first time around, and just yesterday asked if anyone knew where you went. I remembered you looking into the military, and guessed that might be it. Looks like I was right. :)

Sounds like things are going well, congrats.

[Shadowstorm]

So, I'm not sure how much I've explained since the OP, but I'm in tech school now down south for a job called RF Transmissions Systems. It basically entails a bunch of SATCOM jobs as well as maintaining & operating radio frequency equipment and what not. I've discovered that it actually appears to be a very versatile career field with lots of post-USAF opportunities.

Yesterday, I discovered that for my first base, I'll be going to Colorado for a space communications squadron (what they call it anyway) :). Outlook appears to be quite bright.

[burger]

Deaf people like me are very quick readers so all they have to do is type up the orders instead of verbally saying it.

I just had this mental image of Tom Hanks typing on a typewriter on the shores of Normandy so he can inform the deaf guy in his platoon to take cover.

[johnperkins21]

So, I'm not sure how much I've explained since the OP, but I'm in tech school now down south for a job called RF Transmissions Systems.
Ah, Keesler AFB. Good times. There used to be a fairly decent comic book store just outside the base, near the Papa John's.

[Zrikz]

Been a while since this thread has been around!

Graduated Army OCS in Dec.. I'ma new dumb 2LT! =/

Have another 6 months of Signal officer school and then headed off to Korea once I graduate. Its been a rather interesting 7 months so far.

[diablopath]

Been a while since this thread has been around!

Graduated Army OCS in Dec.. I'ma new dumb 2LT! =/

Have another 6 months of Signal officer school and then headed off to Korea once I graduate. Its been a rather interesting 7 months so far.

Congrats, man. My father was stationed in Korea twice...once as his first assignment, and the second time when I was just a toddler (about 10 years later).

They only shot at him a few times. I'm sure you'll be okay!